Author Topic: Episode 254  (Read 25568 times)

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Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2005, 01:45:35 AM »
Sigh.   :) 

Of course there are lots of sea-faring nations that had very powerful fleets-- and your example of portugal and spain are very good ones too.  Thank you for mentioning them.  England also happens to be an island.  The others are not.  That was the only reason I thought England wasn't such a far-fetched totally-meaningless-to-the-story-we-shouldn't-really-be-talking-about-it paralell.

And I'm not so dumb as to not know about some of the rest of the history of europe and their navys.  And yes, Protestant England wasn't busom buddies with the Pope or the Vatican-- paralells only go so far, they're not air tight perfect comparisons.

Whatever.  It's not that important anyways.  I'm not the one who even brought up the comparison.  I simply thought the comment wasn't so "out there". 


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2005, 07:46:05 AM »
Naval country... nobody mentioned Norway ? Eess = Oslo
You take the words out of my mouth really... The only reason I didn't elaborate was to keep my post from turning into a tedious history lesson.
[...]
Let's not start talking about ancient Phoenicia and its colonies.

England also happens to be an island.  The others are not.
Point taken, they're both islands.

And I'm not so dumb as to not know about some of the rest of the history of europe and their navys.

Well, I'm not so dumb as not to know that Great Britain is located on an island. ;)

paralells only go so far, they're not air tight perfect comparisons.
From what we can see, Miura likes to take elements from history, old mythologies, and adapt them to his universe. Now that doesn't mean you have great parallels either, it's mostly names, some concepts or events that very vaguely resemble each other.
Parallels that have no depth story-wise.

And how do you delimitate what is too far and not too far? Geographically, Tudor isn't a good representation of England, yet in terms of specific events, it's the "closest" (though not very close) we have. What tells you that Miura didn't take some Portuguese traits to design Ys as an island? (to put it simply: until now, parallels haven't been geographic) Ys also doesn't seem to be that big or powerful of a country for now (admittedly, we don't know much about it yet), the Great Britain did conquer lands and was a force to be reckoned with, even on land.

Whatever.  It's not that important anyways.  I'm not the one who even brought up the comparison.

I couldn't agree more after all this quoting, my original point was just that there was no relevance in directly comparing the Berserk world with ours just basing oneself on generic geographical features. That doesn't make it a "stupid" idea or whatever, but it is a hastily drawn conclusion, without much substance. Roderick doesn't look British anyway. :P (past the joke, you may notice how this illustrates my comment about substance)


Now to change the topic as the rest of my post merely consists of quotes, how do you guys think the situation will evolve? Guts and the team forcing their way in? Requesting a discreet audience with Farnese? Serpico moving to intercept them? Roderick and Magnifico trying to intercept them? What about the announcement of Farnese and Roderick's engagement? Will they have time to make it public, and will she contravene it in front of everybody once she sees her friends?

Then there is the threat looming over Vritannis...

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2005, 11:41:41 AM »
Quote
Now to change the topic as the rest of my post merely consists of quotes, how do you guys think the situation will evolve? Guts and the team forcing their way in? Requesting a discreet audience with Farnese? Serpico moving to intercept them? Roderick and Magnifico trying to intercept them? What about the announcement of Farnese and Roderick's engagement? Will they have time to make it public, and will she contravene it in front of everybody once she sees her friends?

Well seeing that Serpico knows they're there, I would imagine he would be the one to intercept them.  Perhaps closely followed by Farnese's mother.... but then again maybe she will stick to preventing the engagement announcement.
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Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2005, 12:56:54 PM »
Well, I'm not so dumb as not to know that Great Britain is located on an island. ;)

Fair enough.  I was getting grumpy I guess.

Quote
Roderick doesn't look British anyway. :P (past the joke, you may notice how this illustrates my comment about substance)

True too-- his teeth are way too nice for a Brit. ;D


As for Serpico-- he's such an enigma, I can never really tell what he'll do.  Mostly, his motivation seems to be to help Farnese, to protect her,and to do her bidding.  He was antagonistic to Guts way back when, but I always felt that was simply because he was "The Black Swordsman" and the Holy See was after him-- not because he particularly disliked him....  I could see how Guts and co. crashing the party would be an embarrassment for Farnese, and that therefore Serpico would try to stop the party from arriving, but at the same time... I think Serpico would have to see how unhealthy the current situation for Farnese is, and that he might be looking for help to get her out.  Basically though, he never seems to really make many decisions on his own.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 03:04:50 PM by Aazealh »

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2005, 06:01:24 PM »
Well it has been expressed before that Serpico is not comfortable with the idea of Farnese being in constant danger when in Guts' company, but he aknowledged that it has changed her for the better.
His opinion on the most recent turn of events hasn't been revealed yet, but I can guess he isn't too thrilled about the engagement.
Either way, I can speculate we will see some sort of decision reached on Serpico's part on whether or not to support Farnese's continued envolvement with Guts.  It would be the perfect time for it.
Mindlessly wandering protecting Farnese can get old, I feel its about time to advance Serpico's character a little.
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Offline Sparnage

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2005, 07:26:34 PM »
I did suspect that Serpico would also be against the new choice to leave the group on account that he would have to finally watch Farnese get married, it seems that is indeed the case and who could blame him?

I do have to admit I find Farnese's mum rather interesting, she comes across as very smart, manipulative, sly character that has a great ability to read people yet has a honest and laid back element to her personality, a well put together character overall IMO.
I'm curious to how she will react to Guts taking her back with them, I don't think she will be too surprised but have a feeling she may very well support Farnese when she chooses to continue on with the journey.

I don't see Magnifico becoming any real bother to them but I would consider him to be more of an antagonist than the average character, as for Roderick.... Hard to say but to me he comes across as a person who would likely to have better intentions than the other, but it's too early to know for sure.

I'm not exactly sure what to expect to happen as far as confrontation goes between Guts and Magnifico for Farnese, brute force is of course likely but I wonder if they will come to some sort of agreement in order to also acquire a ship to go to Elfhelm. Hard to tell.

Also good to see old characters like Owen making a return into the story, brings a hint of Nostalgia for the long time readers.

Offline Trashcan

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2005, 01:06:08 AM »
Just to be completely random, I'm going to say that in the next episode the guards will try to detain Guts & Co., Guts will draw DS in annoyance, Schierke, Everalla, and Puck will admonish him, the guards will raise a fuss, and then, Serpico will arrive. While he tries to defuse the situation, Mommy will catch wind of what's going on. After seeing Farnese's rugged man-toy firsthand, she'll immediately decide that she was wrong about Farnese's choice in men. The disturbance outside starts gathering attention from within the mansion. Serpico is about ready to kill somebody at this point, seeing how Guts won't leave and stop embarrassing Farnese. Farnese herself meanwhile, has a pretty clear idea of what's going on at the front entrance, and is about to do something unpredictable(Like tell Daddy about Manny's "little arrangement"), when Manny & Roddy decide that this will be the perfect opportunity to announce the wedding. And in the darkest shadows outside the guarded walls of the House of Vandimion, the General of the Land is telling his commando death-squads to light the place up on his order...
IT CONTINUES!!
It's always the same. Now if you had the two eyes on the same side of the nose, for instance -- or the mouth at the top -- that would be some help.'

`It wouldn't look nice,' Alice objected. But Humpty Dumpty only shut his eyes, and said `Wait till you've tried.'

Offline Kirika-chan

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2005, 04:01:33 AM »
And yes, Protestant England wasn't busom buddies with the Pope or the Vatican-- paralells only go so far, they're not air tight perfect comparisons.
Actually they were, because England was not Protestant during pretty much all of the middle ages. Henry VIII himself was given the title of "protector of the Faith" by the Pope. Everything went downhill from there, but that was already in the 16th century. The events in Bersek would have happened MUCH earlier, during the darkest of the dark ages.

Also, the Tudors were not really English royalty. They were Welsh royalty. They ascended to the English throne by right of conquest as late as 1485.

The Norse don't really fit as isolationsits. Their trade and involvement with Constantinople was too great.

I don't think that Eess is supposed to be a parallel of England, but it sounds like England was the inspiration for Eess, if nothing else, for the cliches attached to the British nation. Even if Tudor was also insipred by it and not by Wales, it doesn't affect the result, since you can take inspiration from the same country to create two very different fantasy kingdoms.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2005, 10:37:08 AM »
Geez, and I thought we were done with the historical smartass-ness.

Actually they were, because England was not Protestant during pretty much all of the middle ages. Henry VIII himself was given the title of "protector of the Faith" by the Pope.

Henry VIII the murderous despot that banished cardinals and was excommunicated, sold monasterial lands, and put Thomas More to death (his own wives also got executed). He opposed Luther and sided with the Roman Empire against the French for a while (and it was virtually the archbishop Wolsey that ruled at the time, acting for his own interest rather than the King's, until he lost Henry's confidence), then created his own church when it advantaged him ("Defender of the Faith" indeed). There was a lot of turmoil back then, and (religious) allegiances lasted only as long as they were profitable, so what's your point? That History can't be summarized in a single sentence?

The events in Bersek would have happened MUCH earlier, during the darkest of the dark ages.

The architecture of Vandimion's place or the Vritannis fashion sure looks like they're from the darkest of dark ages. Wasn't it called the Renaissance or something like that? ::) Or do you mean by Dark Age the fall of the Roman empire and the Anglo Saxon battles with the Vikings, after they had pushed the Celts back to Wales and Scotland? Maybe the Normans' conquest? Because "England" wasn't that great of a maritime power at the time, it wasn't one at all to be exact. The great era of exploration and colonisation started with Elizabeth I (and ships of the type we saw in the recent episodes that could endure sailing on the open ocean were first built during the 15th/16th centuries anyway).

Also, the Tudors were not really English royalty. They were Welsh royalty. They ascended to the English throne by right of conquest as late as 1485.

Weren't we talking about Great Britain anyway? ::) I think that was what Mepheiz meant... Just saying so because if we're going by the island standard, England alone isn't one. I'd also like to know your point here as that doesn't change nor add anything to what was previously said, and as a large number of throne ascentions in history were by right of conquest.

it sounds like England was the inspiration for Eess, if nothing else, for the cliches attached to the British nation.

Really, should I quote my own posts again? It "sounds" like you guys absolutely want Ys to be inspired by a real world country, to the point where any assumption involving historical medleys is a good enough pretext... Clichés apparent to the British nation? And what would that be? They're islanders? Wow, big demonstration here dude. Don't be mistaken, it's interesting to have some historical speculation to a point, but there's just not enough substance to make that kind of affirmation here, nor any relevance in doing it over a single geographical element and the comment of a (bitter) young ambitious man that has been "disowned by his country".

Anyway, discussing the matter is interesting and as I told QuestionMark it's good to hear several points of view, but if you people want to "seriously" (i.e. lengthily and with lots of details) speculate over which country in the Holy See Alliance might be inspired from Austria and whatnot, then please make an appropriate thread in Speculation Nation, as the inspiration contemplation itself doesn't relate to the episode.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 12:32:28 PM by Aazealh »

Offline Rickert

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2005, 11:17:43 PM »
damn the link (chapter) isn't working anymore..

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2005, 11:39:54 PM »
Ya snooze ya lose, dude ;)

Offline vlad

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2005, 11:22:58 PM »
A small contribution to hystoricall parallels - England & France had a 100 year war. But at any rate I belive Miura's work should not be brought down to simple "hystorycall borrowing" it's an epic & a masterpiece

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2005, 08:13:54 AM »
England & France had a 100 year war.

Sorry if that disappoints you vlad, but I think everybody knew that already. I don't think anybody meant that Berserk was just about historical borrowing either.

Offline vlad

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2005, 09:39:08 AM »
Yeah I did think that everybody knew that just wasnt brought up ;) my point was that this was going in the same direction as those stupid arrguments whith LOTR being WWII

Offline DemonX

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2005, 05:38:20 PM »
LOTR was WWI god damnit  >:(
I gave you fair warning! Now I am going to make a fool of myself in front of everybody! >:( Feel the ANGST! >:(

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 254
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2005, 01:35:05 AM »
LOTR was WWI god damnit  >:(

LOL.  It's all up for debate my friend.  You can make legit arguements for either, for both, or for neither.  Really.

Quote from: Aazealh
The architecture of Vandimion's place or the Vritannis fashion sure looks like they're from the darkest of dark ages. Wasn't it called the Renaissance or something like that? Roll Eyes

It's interesting you bring up this specific aspect Aaz, because I was rereading the earlier volumes recently (though it applies as much to Vandimion as to Midland) and I had the same feeling.  Essentialy, the aristocracy and their architecture is direct from somewhere between the Rennaisance and Baroque 17/18th century Europe.  Even the clothes they all wear, with the frills and what not, the tights, an the boots.  And the landscaping at the estates and castles.  Very much from that era.

And yet, the armor, the battles and the weapons they use feel very middle ages to me-- definitely from an earlier period at the least. 

Also, the historical info about the Kushan being much, much earlier historically is also very intersting. 

I found this "dissonance" of era-influence interesting, as it pointed out a very specific way in which Miura takes what he likes form different time periods, and uses the details in weaponry, architecture, and clothing to good effect.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2005, 01:00:20 PM »
It's all up for debate my friend.  You can make legit arguements for either, for both, or for neither.  Really.

Hmm, I'd rather not hear the arguments in favor of these theories actually (yes, this implies that I think it's ridiculous).

It's interesting you bring up this specific aspect Aaz, because I was rereading the earlier volumes recently (though it applies as much to Vandimion as to Midland) and I had the same feeling.

8)

Even the clothes they all wear, with the frills and what not, the tights, an the boots.  And the landscaping at the estates and castles.  Very much from that era.

Notice how accurate some of the costumes are, too. Even the clothes the "normal" people wear are realistic. As for landscapes, Miura often uses pictures of real stuff to take inspiration, nothing specific to a region in particular as far as I know though.

I found this "dissonance" of era-influence interesting, as it pointed out a very specific way in which Miura takes what he likes form different time periods, and uses the details in weaponry, architecture, and clothing to good effect.

Yeah, it's what I always said in the numerous discussions I had here or on other boards about Miura's influences from history. He doesn't try to make parallels between Berserk and our world so much as he just takes inspiration on "cool things" here and there to help make Berserk as realistic as possible or to simply add some depth and credibility.

Whether it's weapons, armors, architecture or anything else, it allows him to create a very realistic looking world while having strong fantasy elements dispatched everywhere. I know the scenes in Vritannis are completely credible to me, and wouldn't stand out next to real medieval fortified cities (among those I visited).

How do you guys imagine Miura's workplace? I bet it's filled with hundreds of archive and reference books, and I often wonder if he actually doesn't work more when he takes breaks than when he's working on the manga itself.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2005, 04:25:44 PM »
How do you guys imagine Miura's workplace? I bet it's filled with hundreds of archive and reference books, and I often wonder if he actually doesn't work more when he takes breaks than when he's working on the manga itself.

Totally agree, also, let's not forget, a whole lot of TV and the Internet. =)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 254
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2005, 04:38:27 PM »
Totally agree, also, let's not forget, a whole lot of TV and the Internet. =)

That goes without saying. ;D