Author Topic: Episode 256  (Read 39471 times)

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Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2005, 06:58:09 PM »
Well, time to dynamize the thread.

I think you guys need to come back to reality... Serpico is fighting a very weakened man, that can only stand because of a magical armor and has trouble keeping control of himself and thus must be wary not to get too much into the fight, yet is still fighting to death. That guy also can't wield his weapon without breaking thick pillars. ::)

That's funny too. How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness. There might be a price to pay in the end -as explained by Skullknight- but this is a different story.


That guy also can't wield his weapon without breaking thick pillars.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them - apart from the fact that he could be damaging the DS.
If Guts actually had the alternative offer to use a rapier instead I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever. The thing about the pillars in the end is that Serpico can use them doing some cool maneuvers.  

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.

Maybe Guts should fight naked with his feet tied and a wooden stick as his only weapon while people shoot arrows at him? Maybe that would be fair fighting? Don't mistake my point here guys, I appreciate Serpico's skills a lot as a fighter and a tactician, but Guts is just stronger, he's the hero, and in a boxing match the round would go to him by K.O.

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts?  

These two guys have different fighting styles, and Serpico sure could use his cape and feather sword (though he doesn't seem to have fully mastered them yet, he made mistakes everytime he fought with them, and against Guts that would mean death), but he decided that he didn't need them when he gave them back to Schierke, and now he is in a situation that he put himself in... Whatever happens is a consequence of his own actions.

Who said differently?
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2005, 07:16:52 PM »
How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Are you stupid or just joking? ???

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness.

Weak and weakened aren't the same word. You might want to look the difference up a dictionary before posting. Also, his armor doesn't "cancel" his diminished state, it just prevents Guts from being totally unable to move. He's not nearly as strong right now as he would be if he was in full health and not wearing the armor.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them

Hmm, it seems that you are stupid. :-\

If Guts actually had the alternative to use a rapier I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever.

That's not the point.

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?

Yes, he would. It's not like being in the Interstice has any proven effect that you could use to assert whatever point you are trying to make anyway. Don't try to give me speculation as fact.

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.

Ugh, please don't post if you have nothing to say, really... The dynamizing part was for a joke, you don't have to force yourself.

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts?

Serpico is agile enough considering his "bulk" (he's rather slim when compared to Guts), but he can't dodge Guts' hits, he's wounded, remember? Serpico would be K.O. because he's not as strong nor smart as Guts, as he himself states in this episode.

Who said differently?

I wasn't contradicting someone with that paragraph, merely explicating my previous statement that there's no point in trying to find redeeming features for Serpico having the lower hand in this fight.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 07:29:21 PM by Aazealh »

Offline Vaxillus

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2005, 07:31:20 PM »
If I might venture to a few guesses
That's funny too. How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness. There might be a price to pay in the end -as explained by Skullknight- but this is a different story.
For Guts, he is in a very weakened state.  With the armor, he doesn't need to worry much, but he lost a lot of muscle mass while he was recovering from his first encounter with the armor.  What I think Aaz was saying is that in a pitched battle, with Guts in good condition and in a standard setting, guts would beat the crap out of Serpico with little trouble.  Even now, in his weakened state, he is still winning.  Serpico just can't stand up to him.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them - apart from the fact that he could be damaging the DS.
If Guts actually had the alternative offer to use a rapier instead I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever. The thing about the pillars in the end is that Serpico can use them doing some cool maneuvers.
Um, let's just ignore the fact that the DS gets stiffly embedded in several of them during the fight.  Guts can slash through one or two before it gets stuck, but in the end he can't swing it as freely as he would normally.  As for damaging the DS, I don't think it can be damaged any more.

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?
The interstice has nothing to do with Guts' strength, or if it does it is never mentioned.  Though it allows (forces) him to encounter ghosts, demons, fairies and the like, I doubt it affects his ability to wield the sword.

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.
I hope you aren't serious  ???

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts?  
Though this is a bit of a toss up, I think that Guts and Serp at least equal speed.  Agility is something else, since Guts is impared slightly be his armor (even then, most people barely notice when he runs by, since he's so fast) and his wounds, he probably can't jump off pillars like Serpico.  His parries and dodging seem to be about the same speed, otherwise he'd probably have a rapier through his head.  He would still be able to hit Serpico.

Edit:, Aaz beat me to the punch  :-\  K.O.!

Offline Serpico

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2005, 07:56:15 PM »
Haha, that's funny. So Guts has tons of advantages, but if Serpico had the same advantages than him, it would be disadvantages. In my book that just makes Guts stronger.

Guts is stronger  :P thats what im saying. Its a natural advantage that gives him the ability to wear heavy armor easily. That makes 90% of his body completly protected from attacks. Also his armor is magical so he can move better than if he wasnt wearing any.

The Pillars are very similar for Serpico, in the aspect they protect him without hindering his movement (they even increase it in ways, like the armor)  So armor wise they have been even so far.

I don't think Serpico should be discredited much except that Guts is weak and holding back his full arsenal. I only think his hand is weak though quite frankly, since its not utilizing the armor to brace it.


As far as the boxing match thing, that is the reality that Serpico is winning. He landed about 4 blows on Guts (face, armor, metal hand), vs the 1 time Guts has hit him. Boxing is scored on points, unless there is a KO or TKO. Guts is a KO man though, we all know that, so Im not saying he is losing or something.

At the current point I feel Guts is winning, I also think Serpico is doing awesome though. Thats sums up my overall feeling about the fight, I think most all of us agree on that so no need to be too heated bout it. I'm obviously obligated to cheer for Serp though.

** excuse my use of bold text, its meant for clarification, Not to be/sound obnoxious

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2005, 08:10:53 PM »
Guts is stronger  :P thats what im saying.

Well that's also what I'm saying. 8)

Its a natural advantage that gives him the ability to wear heavy armor easily.

Haha, so being stronger counts as an advantage? Then let's just say that being all-around better at everything is also an advantage, and we can call it a day.

That makes 90% of his body completly protected from attacks.

Well as I said, Serpico can go and wear an armor if he wants to, it's just the way you play the game, you can't hold that against Guts given the situation IMHO.

Also his armor is magical so he can move better than if he wasnt wearing any.

Nope. The Berserk's armor does two things: remove pain, remove fear. Guts becomes more agile and nimble when the Beast is in control, because he just doesn't care about anything anymore and relies on pure instinct/fighting prowess instead of skill and tactics.

He can fight despite his spiritual wound because the armor eases his pain (but doesn't make it completely disappear unless he goes all out in a fight as stated on the beach), but that doesn't give him abilities, if anything it's just something he could do before without knowing it, and that harms his body when he does.

I don't think Serpico should be discredited much except that Guts is weak and holding back his full arsenal.

Well, I think that's enough, don't you?

As far as the boxing match thing, that is the reality that Serpico is winning. He landed about 4 blows on Guts (face, armor, metal hand), vs the 1 time Guts has hit him. Boxing is scored on points, unless there is a KO or TKO. Guts is a KO man though, we all know that, so Im not saying he is losing or something.

Oh, so you guys were literally talking about boxing rules? My bad then, I didn't think of it that way... But I think that it's inappropriate though, considering the fact that Guts willingly lets Serpico hit the parts of his body that are protected, or deflect his blows to the armor without caring more than that.

I just don't think that comparison has much relevance to be honest... Now that's only my opinion, of course.

At the current point I feel Guts is winning, I also think Serpico is doing awesome though. Thats sums up my overall feeling about the fight, I think most all of us agree on that so no need to be too heated bout it.

Sure thing, I have no problem agreeing on that (some heated discussion is good every now and then though 8)).

Offline guts

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2005, 08:13:09 PM »
I totally agree with Aazealh, Guts is definitely in a disadvantages situation when he took on the duel against Serpico, with his health and what not. However Guts is just too much for Serpico to handle; honestly speaking, do Serpico stand a chance with any apostle without his magic feather, I doubt it. Guts, on the other hand was able to thrust those apostle's ass without any magic help, with that in mind, how could anyone state that Serpico might win.

Offline Serpico

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2005, 08:29:42 PM »
Sure thing, I have no problem agreeing on that (some heated discussion is good every now and then though 8)).

Agreed, but I probably stated most of my points by now, so I'll probably give it a rest till next episode's out, to spare us all from going in circles.

(unrelated: thanks for your hard work on the board) Everyone should say it once.

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2005, 08:39:25 PM »
Are you stupid or just joking? ???

Weak and weakened aren't the same word. You might want to look the difference up a dictionary before posting. Also, his armor doesn't "cancel" his diminished state, it just prevents Guts from being totally unable to move. He's not nearly as strong right now as he would be if he was in full health and not wearing the armor.

Hmm, it seems that you are stupid. :-\

That's not the point.

Yes, he would. It's not like being in the Interstice has any proven effect that you could use to assert whatever point you are trying to make anyway. Don't try to give me speculation as fact.

Ugh, please don't post if you have nothing to say, really... The dynamizing part was for a joke, you don't have to force yourself.

Serpico is agile enough considering his "bulk" (he's rather slim when compared to Guts), but he can't dodge Guts' hits, he's wounded, remember? Serpico would be K.O. because he's not as strong nor smart as Guts, as he himself states in this episode.

I wasn't contradicting someone with that paragraph, merely explicating my previous statement that there's no point in trying to find redeeming features for Serpico having the lower hand in this fight.

Me stupid, stupid. Yes, yes  :P

 Name it weak or weakened it's the same point we are talking about here mr Smart. We know that Guts's weak or weakened state is compansated by the armour's magical ability. While in Berserk armour, one can move at full maneuverability and even better ignoring physical limits - till he collapses from blood loss- we have seen and know this allready. Or is it you don't know?
  
 And why can't Serpico dodge Guts strikes? He is dodging around every strike in this epsiode? And when did we say that Serpico should be considered wounded -what are you saying here?

 About Serpico's remarks I take them as Serpico's character would feel when facing a preplanned situation of his but while being there seeing that he doesn't "own" it that way in the end. We have seen this from his remarks even after his encounter with Guts at the cliff.
 Capture or kill Guts meant that he should be better. Encountering him and get away with it meant that he were on the par. Serpico thought he were better than Guts in that situation. Well he wasn't, this is true, and he find out too late for his plan.


If I might venture to a few guessesFor Guts, he is in a very weakened state.  With the armor, he doesn't need to worry much, but he lost a lot of muscle mass while he was recovering from his first encounter with the armor.  What I think Aaz was saying is that in a pitched battle, with Guts in good condition and in a standard setting, guts would beat the crap out of Serpico with little trouble.  Even now, in his weakened state, he is still winning.  Serpico just can't stand up to him.

Yes, Guts has lost some electrolytes he is fighting worse than before. No

The magic of Berserk armour stands to let you fight beyond limitations of the body. Even if you are weakened or at full health while in Berserk armour it doesn't change your fighting ability. The drowback is that you could eventually die from blood loss-or if you don't but go on using it you could lose your senses and whatever else Skullknight has told Guts about.


Um, let's just ignore the fact that the DS gets stiffly embedded in several of them during the fight.  Guts can slash through one or two before it gets stuck, but in the end he can't swing it as freely as he would normally.

I disagree. And eventually when there are no pillars ahead of DS Serpico is still dodging and parrying his way around.

As for damaging the DS, I don't think it can be damaged any more.
The interstice has nothing to do with Guts' strength, or if it does it is never mentioned.  Though it allows (forces) him to encounter ghosts, demons, fairies and the like, I doubt it affects his ability to wield the sword.

On the contrary, I think it affects his ability on the physical world. Since Flora and Schierke explained the interstice in the manga.


Though this is a bit of a toss up, I think that Guts and Serp at least equal speed.  Agility is something else, since Guts is impared slightly be his armor (even then, most people barely notice when he runs by, since he's so fast) and his wounds, he probably can't jump off pillars like Serpico.  His parries and dodging seem to be about the same speed, otherwise he'd probably have a rapier through his head.  He would still be able to hit Serpico.

Edit:, Aaz beat me to the punch  :-\  K.O.!

Yes, I agree with this

I only think his hand is weak though quite frankly, since its not utilizing the armor to brace it.

No, it doesn't work this way. This magic armour comunicates with its wearer in a more complicated and spiritual manner than the way you think it does. His bare hand is protected by the armour's ability too.
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2005, 08:50:54 PM »
I'm not taking sides or anything, actually, I want nothing to do with this, but we are all on the same page that the pillars have been a disadvantage to Guts and an advantage for Serpico, even if Guts does eventually manage to turn the tables?

I mean, 'cmon. =)

I disagree. And eventually when there are no pillars ahead of DS Serpico is still dodging and parrying his way around.

Dodging yes, but I don't think Serpico can parry the Dragon Slayer. ^_^;

He did kind of "surf" it before with his sword, that was neat, but Guts had already outsmarted him by then. It must be hard for Serpico to find that Guts' advantage isn't just that he's a strong oaf, he's also a superior stratigist. Anyway, I hope the "I accept you" has nothing to do with our two duelists, however probable. =)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 09:16:25 PM by "Griffith No More!" »

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2005, 09:14:13 PM »
I'm not taking sides or anything, actually, I want nothing to do with this, but we are all on the same page that the pillars have been a disadvantage to Guts and an advantage for Serpico, even if Guts does eventually manage to turn the tables?

I mean, 'cmon. =)

Dodging yes, but I don't think Serpico can parry the Dragon Slayer. ^_^;

He did kind of "surf" it before with his sword, that was neat, but Guts had already outsmarted him by then. It must be hard for Serpico to find that Guts' advantage isn't just that he's a strong oaf, he's also a superior stratigist. Anyway, I hope the "I accept you" has nothing to do with our two duelists, however probable. =)


Well, I see it just as an advantage for Serpico than a disadvantage for Guts too as I am not yet convinced that DS has been hampered even at the first part of the duel.

But even if it has, Guts eventually manages to turn the tables...but so does Serpico eventually. It seems there is a dynamic of balance in this fight of this kind.

The problem of Serpico is that he seems to underestimate Guts, so yes, I agree with you. But eventually he manages to get away with it, for now.

And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2005, 09:29:20 PM »
Agreed, but I probably stated most of my points by now, so I'll probably give it a rest till next episode's out, to spare us all from going in circles.

Well, I wouldn't go on myself anyway if it wasn't for our good friend xechnao, I was just reacting so that people's point would be as clear as possible, and I originally misunderstood what Robby meant. I'm done for now though.

(unrelated: thanks for your hard work on the board) Everyone should say it once.

You're welcome! :)

Name it weak or weakened it's the same point we are talking about here mr Smart.

I'm actually not so sure about that... And where did you learn my surname? Are you stalking me or something? :-\

We know that Guts's weak or weakened state is compansated by the armour's magical ability. While in Berserk armour, one can move at full maneuverability and even better ignoring physical limits

See my post above. Removes pain and fear, don't provide user with new abilities. When the Beast is in control, it uses Guts' body like it wants and so he becomes ridiculously agile, like an animal, not caring about damaging himself. That's not the case right now though, plus there's a degree to the pain numbing capacity that relates to how much Guts is into his fight. Lastly I'm sure you're aware that dulling pain isn't healing.
 
And why can't Serpico dodge Guts strikes? He is dodging around every strike in this epsiode?

Not really, no...

And when did we say that Serpico should be considered wounded -what are you saying here?

Must be ketchup on his hand.


Serpico thought he were better than Guts in that situation. Well he wasn't, this is true, and he find out too late for his plan.

I like that isolated part of you post, though I'm not even sure that Serpico was ever really convinced he could beat Guts in this fight. Just figured I'd point it out. :)

Even if you are weakened or at full health while in Berserk armour it doesn't change your fighting ability.

It does affect it xech, especially since Guts is still conscious. If the Beast was in control, your point would have some validity, but that's not the case here.

I disagree. (about the pillars being a hinderance for Guts)

Well, sorry but you're wrong... Serpico himself states that it does. It's obvious anyway, I'm not even sure as to why I bother replying to that.

On the contrary, I think it affects his ability on the physical world. Since Flora and Schierke explained the interstice in the manga.

They didn't explain that being in the interstice magically makes you stronger, at best we know that it alters the way the principles of the world affect people. And since the layers of the world started merging, these very principles may be changing anyway...

No, it doesn't work this way. This magic armour comunicates with its wearer in a more complicated and spiritual manner than the way you think it does. His bare hand is protected by the armour's ability too.

Uhh, excuse me, I'm not even saying I disagree or anything, but you don't really have any fact to back up what you're saying...

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2005, 09:55:37 PM »
See my post above. Removes pain and fear, don't provide user with new abilities. When the Beast is in control, it uses Guts' body like it wants and so he becomes ridiculously agile, like an animal, not caring about damaging himself. That's not the case right now though, plus there's a degree to the pain numbing capacity that relates to how much Guts is into his fight. Lastly I'm sure you're aware that dulling pain isn't healing.
It does affect it xech, especially since Guts is still conscious. If the Beast was in control, your point would have some validity, but that's not the case here.

Guts was slicing apostles with absurdity when he first took that armour on - even before the beast took onto him-and even after the beast went away from total control he made that superman leap. Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible. If he is wounded or weakened the armour makes it so that he loses no fighting ability and it sustains him in the way to last longer possible.
But there are the drawbacks skullknight has talked about. 

Not really, no...
Must be ketchup on his hand.



He bleeded but this is not a wound that makes him a problem or something: just a scar wound they traded (even Guts got his one).
I am curious what do you think by dodging though. If Serpico isn't dodging Guts hits how isn't he hit till now?

I like that isolated part of you post, though I'm not even sure that Serpico was ever really convinced he could beat Guts in this fight. Just figured I'd point it out. :)
Yes, I was talking about the cliff. But it is obvious that Serpico has been underestimating Guts even at this situation.[Guts' change of hands on his DS grip]

Well, sorry but you're wrong... Serpico himself states that it does. It's obvious anyway, I'm not even sure as to why I bother replying to that.
Ok, I can agree with this- for some pages.

They didn't explain that being in the interstice magically makes you stronger, at best we know that it alters the way the principles of the world affect people. And since the layers of the world started merging, these very principles may be changing anyway...

I am not saying that Guts is stronger, just saying that he branded the DS (which yes, requires some inhuman strength). If it wasn't for that apostle and Guts rage and he was to simply wield it in a spectacle contest I doupt he would have made it. This is my opinion.
From the point he wielded and went on, DS became a part of his path.


Uhh, excuse me, I'm not even saying I disagree or anything, but you don't really have any fact to back up what you're saying...

We have seen the armour move and cover parts of the body, it didn't cover that way before.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 09:58:49 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline Smith

Re: Episode 256
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2005, 01:52:00 AM »
My point was Guts Armor and fake hand helps him alot, while Serpico doesnt have that option since its too heavy for him. Guts armor is also magic to top that off, we know he actually had even more agility while wearing it. Overall this is a huge advantage for Guts.
Currently you might say the pillars ARE Serpico's armor. I think its fair enough.


I'm sure that Aazealh has already explained to you, but i would like to emphasize of the Armor that Despite it being magical... It does no help to Guts in this battle... Plus arent you guys forgetting that he is battling with the beast at the same time?



Overall I just want to give my own view regarding this duel... Serp has a lot of advantages in the battle, firstly he have those pillars to act like his so called "armor", secondly Guts is already in his weakened state has Aaz mentioned... Wearing the armor still wont be as good as fighting in his healthy stage... Thirdly Guts is battling with the beast, of course not to the knowledge of Serpico...


Despite all this disadvantages, Guts is clearly on the winning side... It reflect how huge the gaps between the 2 duelist...
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2005, 04:20:54 AM »
Serpico's coming to the sad conclusion that Guts is more than just physically superior to him, and whatever mental or strategic edge he thought he had was imagined.

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2005, 06:24:45 AM »
Serpico's coming to the sad conclusion that Guts is more than just physically superior to him, and whatever mental or strategic edge he thought he had was imagined.

The start to an apostle Serpico? 
My school was the open road. Pain and suffering, my textbooks. My teachers, the gypsies and rapscallions I met along the way. The only constant in my life was art. For you see boys and girls I, Manny Coon, am enslaved to the harshest mistress of all, my muse... That bitch rode the right side of my brain for all she was worth. Always driving me on to find that shade of blue that makes you cry, that red that makes you hot. And always... always, to paint bigger, and better, tits. - Manny Coon

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2005, 06:41:37 AM »
The start to an apostle Serpico? 

Haha, well, it's actually looking more like it than I expected. ;D

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2005, 10:40:29 AM »
Guts was slicing apostles with absurdity when he first took that armour on - even before the beast took onto him

But he was still undergoing the process, he was subject to the armor's Od, and that's why the armor changed shape. Guess I shouldn't skip explaining the details uh? Remember what Schierke said about the armor at the time...  It's all a matter of how much exposure to the armor's Od Guts is getting, and whether he willingly receives it or not.

Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible. If he is wounded or weakened the armour makes it so that he loses no fighting ability and it sustains him in the way to last longer possible.

Yeah, it's true (excepted that the armor doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, and its "fixes" probably still hinder a warrior's fighting abilities no matter what, it's rather obvious), but it's not happening right now, so what's your point again?

He bleeded but this is not a wound that makes him a problem or something: just a scar wound they traded (even Guts got his one).

And how are you coming to this conclusion? Serpico is rather frail, I don't think anybody will disagree here, and he seems to be bleeding a bit much to me. It can hardly be compared to the usual facial scratch Guts gets everytime he fights.

Side note: Moreover, we don't even precisely see where he was wounded (the wrist?), and there's a lack of detail on the hand after the first shot, guess the new assistants are still taking their marks... I hope it'll be corrected in the volume.

By the way, did you check the image's filename? I'm like Guts, I plan your every move in advance. :-* Finally, a "wound" is defined as "an injury, especially one in which the skin or another external surface is torn, pierced, cut, or otherwise broken", so I'm not sure what exactly you're contesting here.

I am curious what do you think by dodging though. If Serpico isn't dodging Guts hits how isn't he hit till now?

Well, excuse me but Serpico did get hit, he bleeds too. ::) He himself says that it's impossible to evade all of Guts' attacks, page 07. He also had to parry with his own sword at one point, and he's not avoiding anything in the final scene.

I am not saying that Guts is stronger, just saying that he branded the DS

He branded the DS, uh?

If it wasn't for that apostle and Guts rage and he was to simply wield it in a spectacle contest I doupt he would have made it. This is my opinion.

Ok, well I disagree. :) Anyway it doesn't concern the current situation in episode 256.

We have seen the armour move and cover parts of the body, it didn't cover that way before.

What? I mean, I think I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't prove much as far as knowing if uncovered parts of his body are affected by the armor or not... The fact that his hand is shaking on the beach would be a better example IMO. Not important anyway.

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2005, 12:15:37 PM »
But he was still undergoing the process, he was subject to the armor's Od, and that's why the armor changed shape. Guess I shouldn't skip explaining the details uh? Remember what Schierke said about the armor at the time...  It's all a matter of how much exposure to the armor's Od Guts is getting, and whether he willingly receives it or not.

But this point doesn't defend against what I am saying: Guts receives the Od all the time, we know that: his problem is to control the beast. As far as the negatives of receiving the Od, the ones Skullknight has warned him against, those exist even when he isn't fighting (all the time). Forgeting details? Who? 


Yeah, it's true (excepted that the armor doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, and its "fixes" probably still hinder a warrior's fighting abilities no matter what, it's rather obvious), but it's not happening right now, so what's your point again?

Yes, the armour does prevent a warrior from bleeding idirectly by fixing him: when bones are broken the armour holds them in place: if it weren't the broken limbs would propably make bleed one fighting a hell lot more. Out of the record, have you seen Monthy Python's Unholy Grail?  ;D

Anyway, that's not the point of argument. The point of argument is that you say that the armour's "fixes" hinders the warriors ability and it's obvious. I say not. Why is that obvious? It could make the warrior pay eventually his wounding but when the fight is on and he can still be going he can make every move as if he were in full health: This has been obvious to me about the armour. Didn't Guts went on attacking Grunbeld at the same level-being a problem to him- even after he has wounded?
I think that you expect that if Guts is healed he could do moves he couldn't till now in the Berserker armour. Well, I don't agree with this.

And how are you coming to this conclusion? Serpico is rather frail, I don't think anybody will disagree here, and he seems to be bleeding a bit much to me. It can hardly be compared to the usual facial scratch Guts gets everytime he fights.

Side note: Moreover, we don't even precisely see where he was wounded (the wrist?), and there's a lack of detail on the hand after the first shot, guess the new assistants are still taking their marks... I hope it'll be corrected in the volume.

By the way, did you check the image's filename? I'm like Guts, I plan your every move in advance. :-* Finally, a "wound" is defined as "an injury, especially one in which the skin or another external surface is torn, pierced, cut, or otherwise broken", so I'm not sure what exactly you're contesting here.

That wound seems it's not battle significant, that's why I called it a scar. Serpico uses his hand efficiently as we see him grab himself near the end of the chapter.
I study medicine, I know what a wound is. Theoretically it could even get an infection and get his arm amputaded. But it's not what we are talking about right now. We talk about their duel and that wound isn't significant there.

Well, excuse me but Serpico did get hit, he bleeds too. ::) He himself says that it's impossible to evade all of Guts' attacks, page 07. He also had to parry with his own sword at one point, and he's not avoiding anything in the final scene.
Yes, his dodges are not clean but there are. Serpico is dodging his way around to not get killed. He didn't still get a direct hit: this is what I mean by dodging.

He branded the DS, uh?

Ok, well I disagree. :) Anyway it doesn't concern the current situation in episode 256.

Sorry wrong verb. It was too late last night. I wanted to say he "wielded".
But why do you disagree?
I thought it is fairly obvious by that scene. Old Godo saying that he thought no human could do it, the inhumanity in Guts face expression as perceived by Rickert, Guts path of hate: his sense of living as explained by him: who black swordsman was.
Flora's explanation along with that scene brings to that conclusion.
I can take Berserk's atmosphere as something like a fact in the story -even if it's not directly explained by dialogue. After all manga is more like a form of art, rather a seminar or something. 

The fact that his hand is shaking on the beach would be a better example IMO.

But didn't have ha put the armour off at that point? I don't recall exactly. Although, yes, it's not so important for me either this part.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 12:17:11 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline MB.

Re: Episode 256
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2005, 12:17:45 PM »
Quote
Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible

It doesn't stop the bleeding. The last person to wear the armor died from bleeding to death while fighting. Remember when Guts first put on the armor?

Which also is a reason to say Guts was even further hindered in this fight. He can't even go 50% full speed or he'll turn into a fountain and start attracting vampires.

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2005, 12:27:29 PM »
It doesn't stop the bleeding. The last person to wear the armor died from bleeding to death while fighting. Remember when Guts first put on the armor?

Yes, I explained better what I was talking about at my post above. By "fixing" ones bones stops the bleeding relatively
in a way. If a man not feeling pain went on fighting with broken limbs we would bleed to death before.

Which also is a reason to say Guts was even further hindered in this fight. He can't even go 50% full speed or he'll turn into a fountain and start attracting vampires.

Well I disagree. I didn't see his thrusts and swings 50% on what we have seen him doing in the past. I thought it was as always, his moves with the DS were depicted as in every other fight.
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline MB.

Re: Episode 256
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2005, 12:35:13 PM »
There's a difference between swinging your sword at someone and trying to kill them in the black swordsman tornado fashion. It's like swinging a broom at a kid to get him off your lawn....you sorta want to crack him upside the head but you hold back. Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2005, 12:48:43 PM »
There's a difference between swinging your sword at someone and trying to kill them in the black swordsman tornado fashion.

The difference is that Guts is fighting one man, not the hundreds of ghouls. Another difference is that Serpico doesn't attack him directly with a flurry of blows that Guts should parry and counter in the tornado fashion. This fight is more like the fight Guts had against the Barkiraka assassins in the tunnel, or that team of spawn-torturers. 

It's like swinging a broom at a kid to get him off your lawn....you sorta want to crack him upside the head but you hold back. Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).

I don't see it that way. This is your opinion, mine is different. Now, I am not saying that Guts wouldn't spare Serpico if he could but I think the effort of battle is different
than what you intend to say.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 01:01:31 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!

Offline MB.

Re: Episode 256
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2005, 01:08:07 PM »
I sometimes confuse facts with my own biased opinions lol

So who thinks this fight is over? As I stated before I think Serpico may see that he and Farnese are safe with Guts. Another event will no doubt occur but by no means are either of these characters gone since Miura has actually given them backstory.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2005, 02:15:15 PM »
But this point doesn't defend against what I am saying: Guts receives the Od all the time, we know that: his problem is to control the beast.

You don't understand. That he should fight the urge to let the Beast take control of himself is one thing. Now if you take a minute to read what I said, in episode 236 among others, Guts comments about how the armor's effect of dulling his pain varies depending on his immersion into a fight. That means that the Od and the way Guts is exposed to it vary.

As for "what you said", fact is that it doesn't really relate to my point in the first place anyway... You're saying that Guts becomes super-spry as soon as he dons the Berserk's armor, taking example of the first time he used it at Flora's mansion, and trying to say that it's the same in this episode, that he isn't in a bad condition, and certainly not impaired when compared to his usual state. That's so blatant an attempt at negating the obvious that there's hardly any need for me to even reply.

As far as the negatives of receiving the Od, the ones Skullknight has warned him against, those exist even when he isn't fighting (all the time).

That's not what I was talking about.

Yes, the armour does prevent a warrior from bleeding idirectly by fixing him: when bones are broken the armour holds them in place

Holds them in place by piercing all of the users' body, obviously causing more hemorrhage.

Out of the record, have you seen Monthy Python's Unholy Grail?  ;D

Duh... If I threw a reference at you, then yes I did, obviously... ;)

The point of argument is that you say that the armour's "fixes" hinders the warriors ability and it's obvious.

No, that's not the point at all. The point is that Guts is completely dominating Serpico in their duel in episode 256.

It could make the warrior pay eventually his wounding but when the fight is on and he can still be going he can make every move as if he were in full health

You're studying medicine, right? Then do you really think that having iron needles transpiercing your whole body to support your bones, including the muscles, wouldn't be a hinderance?

That wound seems it's not battle significant, that's why I called it a scar. Serpico uses his hand efficiently as we see him grab himself near the end of the chapter.

Calling it a scar is just misusing a word, there's hardly any way you can justify that. Anyway, Serpico using his hand 2 times after being wounded doesn't mean that his injury won't take a toll.

I study medicine, I know what a wound is.

Then use correct vocabulary, and don't contest what I say if it's unneeded.

Yes, his dodges are not clean but there are.

I guess that's as close you'll get to admitting something, eh? "I'm wrong but I'm not!"

I can take Berserk's atmosphere as something like a fact in the story

Well you do what you want with your interpretation of the "atmosphere", but that's still not enough... Guts killed Wyald (vanquished him at least) before he was branded, before he had the Dragon Slayer, and he could have wielded it without being branded, given all he had done before that.

And I don't know what exactly you are referring to (you'd better be more precise if you want to make your point clear), but if anything, what we know about this is that it takes time to "benefit" from being in the Interstice, it's not something that you gain right away.

But didn't have ha put the armour off at that point?

No, he was wearing it. I think that if he stopped using the armor altogether right now, his condition would get better in regard to that kind of problem specifically (given that his other wounds wouldn't allow him to move around so much).

Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).

I doubt this to be Guts' intention actually.

As I stated before I think Serpico may see that he and Farnese are safe with Guts.

Guts keeping cool right now doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to next time he fights a strong foe.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 02:54:55 PM by Aazealh »

Offline xechnao

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Re: Episode 256
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2005, 03:18:53 PM »
You don't understand. That he should fight the urge to let the Beast take control of himself is one thing. Now if you take a minute to read what I said, in episode 236 among others, Guts comments about how the armor's effect of dulling his pain varies depending on his immersion into a fight. That means that the Od and the way Guts is exposed to it vary.

I read it, mind you, but I kind have my doupts thus I posted. For example why does he stop feeling taste, etch, even if not fighting? Why shouldn't he wear the armour on even when noy fighting?

As for "what you said", fact is that it doesn't really relate to my point in the first place anyway... You're saying that Guts becomes super-spry as soon as he dons the Berserk's armor, taking example of the first time he used it at Flora's mansion, and trying to say that it's the same in this episode, that he isn't in a bad condition, and certainly not impaired when compared to his usual state. That's so blatant an attempt at negating the obvious that there's hardly any need for me to even reply.

No, you are wrong. He was in a bad condition even at Floras. P

That's not what I was talking about.
So in my opinion you are making a confusion. Skullknight talks about the same thing: the effects of the od of the armour. There are not like there are three different ods or something.

Holds them in place by piercing all of the users' body, obviously causing more hemorrhage.
Nope. A piercing blade (see arrow) cuts veins but doesn't necessarily cause more hemorrhage. If you take it out of its place, it will though. Anyway that was not my point. My point was that if the armour forces you to go on fighting, making you not feeling pain, a guy with broken bones moving around would cause himself more hemorrhage in the end and die sooner than having the armour safe its bones on place.
However I see why you disagree with me. You think I was saying first place that the armour stops any blood loss. No, that was not my point as I explained on the post above.

No, that's not the point at all. The point is that Guts is completely dominating Serpico in their duel in episode 256.
If that the case of domination why hasn't he been able to protect the others proceeding their way to Farnese and go on allready? 


You're studying medicine, right? Then do you really think that having iron needles transpiercing your whole body to support your bones, including the muscles, wouldn't be a hinderance?

Because, the guy feels no pain and it seems any physiological mechanism of limiting himself. You know there are feelings against your pushing of your physiological balance to a limit (fear of situations is one of it) or after so you could recover (think of tireness, stress, unwillingness and stuff like that). I think the Berserker armour denies all this stuff making the wearer surpass his limits.

Calling it a scar is just misusing a word, there's hardly any way you can justify that. Anyway, Serpico using his hand 2 times after being wounded doesn't mean that his injury won't take a toll.

I said I called it a scar in means of its significance- is that so importantly wrong to you? ::)
Anyway about your second sentence wanna bet if its gonna have its toll or not?

Then use correct vocabulary, and don't contest what I say if it's unneeded.

I guess that's as close you'll get to admitting something, eh? "I'm wrong but I'm not!"

No, I was not wrong on context. I told you that I used the word dodge meaning  actively avoiding to get a direct hit: that was active from Serpico's part over there, wasn't it?. How do you call this anyway?
Is there a more precise word in english you would accept? Then sorry, my mistake, I was wrong  ::)
 

Well you do what you want with your interpretation of the "atmosphere", but that's still not enough... Guts killed Wyald (vanquished him at least) before he was branded, before he had the Dragon Slayer, and he could have wielded it without being branded, given all he had done before that.

Wyald? Hardly there. Guts hadn't been betrayed by Griffith, hadn't been through the eclipse and hadn't arrived at the extreme or nearly insane state of mind he went afterwards, the one that marked his "black swordsman" being.
Eventually at Wyald times Guts didn't wield DS but a seemingly more humanly acceptable two handed sword. Godo when he saw him wield the DS said that accoring to him was humanly impossible-remember that Godo should have known of Guts excellent abilities.


And I don't know what exactly you are referring to (you'd better be more precise if you want to make your point clear), but if anything, what we know about is that it takes time to "benefit" from being in the Interstice, it's not something that you gain right away.

We know it takes time? It's something relative: Guts was at an extreme state and this is what made it. It could have been all the years you want - snd still if it wasn't for his extreme state-that it could have take an instant- he wouldn't ever wield DS.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 03:23:24 PM by xechnao »
And the game plays on people's backs and they don't even have a clue about it, wasting their energy because their attention is distracted by the rulers' game itself.
Pay attention people. Watch your back!