Author Topic: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)  (Read 3477 times)

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waqas786uk

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An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« on: September 08, 2001, 06:23:20 PM »
Hey all! Its been a while since my last post (which was about Griffith) and lately ive been thinking a lot of the so called God named Idea.

The general point im trying to make is that I dont think idea is as powerful as it professes to be and so one day Guts will kick God Hand's butts and live happily ever after (with Casca  ;)). Throughout this post ill be referring back to the first,and to my knowledge only, conversation griffith had with Idea (in Chapter 83) so it'll be useull to have a copy handy.

Idea made the claim that it is God, that it existed as an answer for human suffering:

Griffith : "... God ?"
Idea : "Welcome" "Human"
Griffith : "Are you God ?..."
Idea : "I am" "the Idea"
"The desired God" "The Idea of Evil"

Later on in this dialogue griffith asks Idea why it exists and Idea gives the following explanation:

Griffith : "... Actually" "it's true" "This" "is... in me" "I can feel it" "But why ?" "Why were you born ?" "Why did humans give born to this will called God ?"

Idea : "The humans" "desired causes"

"Reasons for pain... Reasons for sadness" "Reasons for life" "Reasons for death" "Why were their lives filled with suffering ? Why were their deaths absurd ?" "They desired a reason for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge"

Griffith : "And that was..." "God"..."

Idea : "And I became so" "I control destiny" "since this is what that wanted me to be and do"

Now, in my opinion there are a few fundumental claims made by Idea that nullify Idea's claim to be God.

To do this we'll have to look at what a God is and compare that with what we know about Idea. Its not easy to define a God beacuse different people have different opinions of what a God is. So im going to put forth three basic traits that a being must have in order to be a God:

1. God must be eternal. By that I not only mean that it cannot end, but that it cannot have a beginning either. So it really must have always just existed. Another way of putting it would be to say it was infinite.  

2. God must be limitless in every way by which I mean it must be all-powerfull so that it will be able to do, see, and hear all.

3. God must not be constricted by the dimensions of space. If it was constricted by space it would have a physical form and so would be liable to mortal issues such as pain and death etc. In other words God must exist in a plane other than our realm.

Now ill compare the above 3 traits with Idea in part 2....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

waqas786uk

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 2)
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2001, 06:24:04 PM »

1. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Idea is infinite or eternal. But Idea itself has admitted that it was created by humans (look at the quotes above). This is very important because it suggests that Idea was born, and so will die. Natural law dictates that anything that had a beginning must have an end, the earth, it's inhabitants, the universe itself are all finite because they had a beginning and will one day expire. If idea were going to live forever it couldn't have been born from the sub-conscious of humanity, it must have existed before humanity, or to put it another way Idea must have simply just existed.

2. Idea has claimed that it had the power to shape mens destiny's but it has never actively demonstarted this power. But just beacuse we've never seen idea do anyhing it doesnt mean it has no power. Remember when griffith asked idea to give him wings?

Griffith : "... If so..." "I want wings"

Idea : "Then take with you" "the power of the feelings this inner world is filled with" "and change this physical field that is your body" "into the suitable shape for you"

Idea didnt magically give griffith a pair of wings it simply stated that griffith could change his physical form at will. This suggests that griffith can give himself wings but he needs "the power of the feelings this inner world is filled with" to do this. What we can draw from this is that the source of God's Hand and indeed Idea's power is in fact the negative feelings of humanity. (This relates quite well with my first post "The purpose of being Idea Theory"). This also relates back to the birth of idea in that it was created by the negative feelings of humanity and now it relies on these feelings for its power. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Idea is indeed a very powerfull being but it would not have any power without humans and their emotions, in fact it would not even exist without them.

Idea's biggest boast is that it controls's men destiny's by manipulating their sub-conscious and creating blood lines etc. But as I said before these are only claims and there is no evidence to suggest that Idea actually manipulated anyone or anything. There is also no evidence to suggest that the much talked about causality principal exists either. Though ofcourse fate isnt something that we can measure so whether or not causality exists will always be debateble. For me the most intriging incident concerning this is Guts' and Casca's survival of the eclipse. The general consensus is that Guts and Casca exist outside causality and so are not bound by fate. But this stance makes two huge assumptions: The first is that causality even exists; and the second is that it is possible to exist outside causality.

If you think about it both these assumptions are inherently false because each one naturally negates the other. Let me explain in part 3.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

waqas786uk

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 3)
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2001, 06:25:02 PM »
Einstein suggested that the forth dimension of the universe is time so time began with the universe and when the universe ends so will time. Lets call the beginning of time "A" and the end of time "B". No matter what time must always start at A and end at B. Now we can only make two assumptions of how time gets from A to B. Are the events in between simply random moments which have no effect on time and the journey from A to B? Or is each individual moment a link in a chain of events that culminate at B?

Assuming that the former is true then there is no set route for events to follow and so Guts and Casca were not fated to die in the eclipse and so they dont exist outside causality since there is no such thing as fate. Also it is reasonable to asume that if there is no set path then an infinite number of possibilities, but in the end they will always reach point B.

Now, assuming the latter is true then the causality principal or fate comes into play and then ofcourse they should have died during the eclipse if they were fated to do so, BUT THEY DIDNT. As i said each individual moment (or event) follows on from the previous one for time to reach point B so everyone must be on a single path. This means that if there is such a thing as causality then they MUST have been destined to live, not somehow escape fate and exist 'outside' causality. You CANNOT assume that Guts follows a path different from the rest of the universe because there is only ONE route from A to B IF causality exists.

Do you see what im trying to say? Causality states that there is only one path for the universe to follow so thinking that someone can exist outside causality goes against the laws of the universe (a universe in which all paths are set out beforehand). And at the same time not being bound by fate (like Guts and casca) assumes that the future is unwritten and so there is room for an infinite number of futures therefore causality cannot exist.

The above is just an arguement but to me its reason enough to doubt whether anything is fated to happen. Im sorry I seem to have steared away from my original subject. But i had to since proving the non-existence of causality i think is very important if you, like me, doubt the power of Idea and the God Hand crew. Afterall controlling fate was Idea's biggest boast/power and if its not able to do that then, well, decide for yourself what that means in the grand scheme of things (By the way im aware that it makes them 'less powerfull' so dont put up a post telling me that).

3. (At last, hehe)


Ok, so idea does have a physical form, is that reason to doubt its divinity? Im not sure. The fact that it has a physical form seems to be clear evidence that it is not a God but it remains unclear whether idea exists in another plane or in our own. Having a physical form but existing in another dimension doesnt go against my rules for what a God is. It is interesting then to note that when God Hand appeared in the anime the scenery around the hawks did dramatically alter. The only question is whether the hawks were transported to a demonic plane or did the God Hand merge the mortal and demon dimensions? If so then it seems that it is NOT possible for Idea and the God's Hand to exist in the mortal world (which explains why griffith was recently re-incarnated). This shows that they are spiritual beings but it does not prove Idea's divinity.

The main question im asking is whether Idea exists in this demon dimension also. Or is Idea in a realm of existence of its own? A plane other than the demon and mortal realms. At any rate we can assume that Idea is vunerable to death because of its physical form but at the same time existing of another plane would make Idea really difficult to get to, in fact that would be downright impossible.

Conclusion

Has Idea satisfied my 3 traits of divinity? No, in fact it hasnt even satisfied one. It has admitted that it is a product of human emotion which shows that it is not infinite so can end. It seems to draw it's power from human emotions which makes it dependant on mortals for its own survival. And it has a physical form which suggests that it could be destroyed though we cant be sure of its plane of existence.

Well thats all I have to say for now. Im sure you all have your own opinions and so if theres anything you disagree with then plz post a reply.

Bye

waqas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline floydboy

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2001, 12:17:25 AM »
I enjoyed reading your thesis and accompanying support that followed.  I don't refute your ideas at all, but I do have a few thoughts of my own.

First, let's assume time exists.  The universe began and will eventually end.  In this state, having an ending, nothing can be truly eternal, or in other words infinite.  All entities will cease to exist.  A god  who may well exist for eons of time will come to an end.  So a god in that sense does not truly have to be infinite.  For example, the god Indra in Hinduism has no connections to natural phenomena within his name that ties most gods in Hinduism to the world.  Scholars believe that he was a general that led a fierce attack for India ages ago, and that the people made a god.  Those going to battle shout his name for protection.  There are rituals performed to help summon the power of this god.  Was the actual figure that the god came from eternal?  By no means.  Is the god in the religion now eternal?  He seems to be.  Thus Idea may have been originally created by some evil thoughts of men searching for reasons.  The reasons that created him are now gone since those people who entertained the thoughts were mortal.  However, Idea could be considered eternal in the eyes of men since he will exist as long as men live (unless Sir Thomas More's Utopia comes to life...unlikely).  Idea may not be infinite, but he may be eternal.

I do agree with the fact that a god must be on another plane other than our own here.  The question remains of what is that plane.  Having read some dissertations on the multiverse theory, there could be numerous answers to that question.  According to some of the premises arising from quantum mechanics, there exist infinite parallel universes that contain ourselves in different ways.  In other words, everyone exists in these realms.  However, every decision that anyone has made could have been made differently in one of those universes.  Infinite possibilities to what humanity may be or even if humanity exists.  So, could a god simply be able to travel between universes to render what 'it' sees fit?  If photons can randomly generate from nothingness, they argue that something with enough knowledge could do the same.  Where this is leading....Idea does exist in a different plane.  Idea can travel to a different plane, or have entities travel to his plane.  As well, having a physical nature doesn't rule out being a god.  Perhaps that god simply learned how to ultimately control the physical state.

Now, what if time doesn't exist.  Man creates time to simply have a means of describing change.  Time is only relevant to mankind.  Let's say that there are innumerable 'moments' that occur.  A moment is like a picture that goes on forever.  All that happens is a rearrangement of bodies.  In this sense, Idea doesn't need to worry about time at all, or being finite for that matter.  

Some how i do think that Idea is a 'god' though he be created by man.  (Please no arguments that every god was created by man)  However, another interesting point.  In Greek mythology (yes, I know, but it fits here) Zues was able to KILL his father Cronus who was also a god.  Therefore gods could be defeated for bettering life.  I believe that there is hope for Guts and company.  Though it might take someone 'god-like' to rearrange everything to a happy normality.  

Let me know what you guys think of this.  Any conctructive criticism is cool with me.

P.S.  I sure hope Casca survives.  I was crushed enough when Judeau bit the dust.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Shakunetsu no jigoku kara mamorareta amai sekai he to toki wa utsuriyuku ... Minna sugiteyuku no sa sugiteyuku nara seijyaku wo matsu dake sa.  Zutto kaeteikudake, kotoba wa sutete, Kokoro mo azamuku no ka machibouke...

Offline floydboy

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2001, 12:30:06 AM »
Well, we could all argue the Princess Monoke view of gods and death and time, but hey it's 2:30 here and I have to wake up at 7.  So, I think a little sleep would be useful.

How many gods died in Monoke, like 3 or 4.  o well.  It could never live up to Berserk!!! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Shakunetsu no jigoku kara mamorareta amai sekai he to toki wa utsuriyuku ... Minna sugiteyuku no sa sugiteyuku nara seijyaku wo matsu dake sa.  Zutto kaeteikudake, kotoba wa sutete, Kokoro mo azamuku no ka machibouke...

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2001, 02:18:18 AM »

Quote

How many gods died in Monoke, like 3 or 4. †o well. †It could never live up to Berserk!!! :)


Um, wasn't it several hundred?

Weren't the boars all Gods? And the wolves, and of course the shishigami.

What about the kodama (sp?), and those ape things?

I could be wrong, I didn't really pay attention. I kinda thought it was an incredibly boring, cliche-ridden story.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

waqas786uk

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2001, 07:03:06 AM »

Quote


Floydboy i found your post very interesting and im glad someone decided to put forth their own ideas on the berserk universe. However there are a few things you wrote that I disagree with.

First, let's assume time exists. †The universe began and will eventually end. †In this state, having an ending, nothing can be truly eternal, or in other words infinite. †All entities will cease to exist. †A god †who may well exist for eons of time will come to an end. †So a god in that sense does not truly have to be infinite. †

Reading the above quote made me think that you assumed that God existed in our universe and then you gave some evidence that suported that stance (the Hindu God Indra). Your arguement centered around gaining imortality in mens minds by being remembered as a God. It is true that this would make Indra eternal because he would always be remembered but as you yourself stated the figure from which that God came is by no means eternal. By that logic we could also say that Cleopatra is a God, that Richard the Lionheart is a God, that any historical figure is divine since they will live on eternally in mens minds. You later said that Idea can be considered eternal because he will live as long as men live. Again by that logic any historical figure is also divine.
Ok, later on in your post you wrote;

Now, what if time doesn't exist. †

It does exist. Dont be offended but you cant change the laws of the universe at will to support a hypothetical theory, thats just silly.

Man creates time to simply have a means of describing change. †Time is only relevant to mankind. †

Thats what time is. Like the other three dimensions it has a scale that can be measured in years months days etc. I am aware that this scale was created by man and it inherently aplies only to man but that does not mean time doesnt exist. The only way Idea could remain unaffected by time is if it existed on another plane. I do however agree with you about Idea's perception of time.

Let me explain...

Einstein suggested that the forth dimension of the universe is time so time began with the universe and when the universe ends so will time. (I know thats a quote from my own post). If you apply the first three dimensions (length, breadth and width) you can think of the universe as a 3d box or a cube. Now if you add the dimension of time then the universe becomes a 3d rectangle with time beginning at one end and ending at the other. If, somehow, a being were able to exist outside the universe, or 'step out of the box', then it should be able to see theevery moment in time from beginning to end simultaneously making each individual moment inconsequential, or like floydboy said;

Let's say that there are innumerable 'moments' that occur. †A moment is like a picture that goes on forever. †All that happens is a rearrangement of bodies. †In this sense, Idea doesn't need to worry about time at all, or being finite for that matter. †

By this logic it is conceivable that a being unaffected by time and space could exist outside our own universe. This is also a rebuttal for floydboy's comment that when the universe dies so will God.
Well thats all. I've tried to give constructive criticism plz dont be offended if you think its an attack. If anyone has any rebuttals for this or my original post please dont hesistate to reply

bye
waqas

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

waqas786uk

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2001, 07:04:46 AM »
lol i really fucked that up. Sorry.

waqas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

paradiselost

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2001, 07:38:21 AM »

...your theory is really interesting...

...however, Idea and God Hand exists, as you said, 'cause the pain, the bad feeling of people in the Berserk's world allow to them to exists...

...where they are? They are in all...they are in feelings of people, they are in animals (you remeber that page when there was the dream of the Hawk of Light, in which Conrad took for few seconds a material form with the bodies of many mice? Think about it, for instance...), they are in the air, they are in the world, 'cause they are the world of Berserk...
...they exists 'cause the sufference exists, and they were created to reporesent in reality this sufference...

...who created them? I don't know, I can only tell you that I don't believe that someone created them...I feel they are a part of us...

...like, for instance, when you do something bad...

...or when I do something bad...

...all in the world has a Dark Part...this Dark Part, if it begins too strong, is Idea, and the God Hand is what represent it...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2001, 09:32:13 AM »
Quote

1. God must be eternal. By that I not only mean that it cannot end, but that it cannot have a beginning either. So it really must have always just existed. Another way of putting it would be to say it was infinite. †

2. God must be limitless in every way by which I mean it must be all-powerfull so that it will be able to do, see, and hear all.

3. God must not be constricted by the dimensions of space. If it was constricted by space it would have a physical form and so would be liable to mortal issues such as pain and death etc. In other words God must exist in a plane other than our realm.

So...do you know any Gods? †;) Seriously though, the above points seem to be composed from some Judeo-Christian beliefs. A god does not have to be all-powerful, nor does it not have to have been born. Technically, God is fiction. It can be whatever the writer wants it to be. Ever read Sandman, by neil gaiman? Gods are born and die constantly (but in the end,a god cannot die as long as there is still faith).


Quote

...there is no evidence to suggest that Idea actually manipulated anyone or anything. There is also no evidence to suggest that the much talked about causality principal exists either

Well, no there CAN'T be any evidence. It is highly suggested. end of Volume 8, Guts leaves Griffith. Volume 9, Guts meets Skully and Skully says: "A gear has started to turn..." soon afterwards, Griffith plummets into despair, which leads ultimately to the eclipse. All (well...most) things in Berserk lead to other events. Causality DOES exist, or else it would not be spoken by beings like God Hand and Skully. I think as far as Berserk authority goes, they are the 2 forces that definately know what theyre talking about.
Quote

But this stance makes two huge assumptions: The first is that causality even exists; and the second is that it is possible to exist outside causality.

Well, you are forgetting that Idea manipulates Causality piece by piece. Not even God Hand can grasp the full 'plan' of causality. Also, you are not taking into account the variables here. Guts is 'too strong' for Causality to wipe him out. I know that sounds crude and really lame, but so far its been proven true time and time again.
Quote

No matter what time must always start at A and end at B. Now we can only make two assumptions of how time gets from A to B. Are the events in between simply random moments which have no effect on time and the journey from A to B? Or is each individual moment a link in a chain of events that culminate at B?

First of all, I really dont think that Einstein's theories apply here, even though what youre talking about is really a basic idea: that either fate is eternal and omnicient, or fate is non-existent. However, fate in Berserk so far has been rather wishy-washy because fate exists for the endless chain of events that are:( 1) giving humanity a 'purpose' (2) supplying sufficient negative emotions to ensure human suffering (through apostles, and general despair but I think humans do it by themselves, to themselves...) (3) The rise and fall of power. The Good times to celebrate and ultimately the bad times, to revel in humanities nature to hate and fear.
Quote

You CANNOT assume that Guts follows a path different from the rest of the universe because there is only ONE route from A to B IF causality exists.

The answer to this is simple: Idea is based on spirituality, and Guts is 'spiritually dead'. So yes he CAN exist outside of Idea's plan because Idea's plan isnt based on the UNIVERSE, but humanities path.
Quote

The main question im asking is whether Idea exists in this demon dimension also. Or is Idea in a realm of existence of its own?

Check out volume 3, we see the God Hands dimension (4th?)when the God Hand are summoned. We also see it several more times in the manga, including when Wild gets 'sucked down' into hell, and of cource Chapter 83.
Quote

I believe that there is hope for Guts and company. †Though it might take someone 'god-like' to rearrange everything to a happy normality. †

Dont forget, Void has a 'master plan' and we have no clue what it might be. He could mean to change the nature of Idea.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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paradiselost

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2001, 11:21:09 AM »

...what do you mean with the words "to change the nature of Idea"?
Which is your idea about this exactly Walter?

???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline floydboy

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2001, 11:55:18 AM »
hey waqas

just to let you know, i did not conceive the idea of time not existing at all.  It was not a hypothetical whim that by some consciousness i came up with.  There is actually a scientist in Engalnd who at this moment is coming up with the theory of time not existing at all, which would completely destroy most bounds of physics, but could be true nevertheless.  What's more, he is working on the math to prove his calculations.  The constant problem of trying to unite the microscopic world with the macroscopic (a solution that even baffled Einstein his entire life) would be easily solved by this theory.  Relativity is a theory as well, and every theory can eventually be disproven.  Look at Newton, since even his laws don't apply at light speeds.  

The Laws of the Universe....no one knows exactly what those laws are.  A reason that the scientist in England is not that well known is that it is incredible hard for anyone to try and conceive that there is no time element.  Time may well not exist.  If there is a law of the universe, it's that we aren't even on the tip of the iceberg in finding what lies in the universe.  Einstein has his theory which some consider laws, but even the laws of physics can be appended or changed.  

Hmm, now that Walter mentions Void...who knows.  

Maybe everyone just found a new opium drug or an early form of acid.  I mean look at the fog from SK. ....right...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Shakunetsu no jigoku kara mamorareta amai sekai he to toki wa utsuriyuku ... Minna sugiteyuku no sa sugiteyuku nara seijyaku wo matsu dake sa.  Zutto kaeteikudake, kotoba wa sutete, Kokoro mo azamuku no ka machibouke...

paradiselost

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2001, 11:58:18 AM »

...drugs...I never thought about it before...uhmmmmmm...

:o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2001, 12:40:01 PM »
This whole Idea isnít God and Casualty doesnít exist proposal doesnít seem like a challenge of peopleís theories but of facts Miura himself put in the manga, how can you disprove what Kentarou Miura writes in the universe HE created? Everything in the series is defined by Kentarou Miura and the standards he creates for them, something that he himself adds to the series such as Casualty canít be disputed, nor his definition of a God by the standards of the real world; scientific or religious.  

Maybe I just misinterpreted the theory.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

paradiselost

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2001, 08:00:10 AM »

...I believe you good understood the theory, instead, Griffith...

:-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Cheshire

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2001, 10:08:24 PM »
(I hate to say this simply because I hate people who speak up in the middle of a discussion and compare two authors who aren't much related.)
Anyway, after reading your (waqas786uk) post(s), I got some serious Nausicaa/crazy old Howard Bloom goosebumps.... simply the idea of some sort of "evil" and controlling force created by humans (conciously or unconciously, instinicually, genetically, etc?). The works. I wonder what sort of rant Guts is going to go on before doing the good old hacksedodah with Idea? Or maybe Griffith will do the rant? Or Adon?
But judging by Miura's track record, it will (hopefully) be something my feeble mind can't predict.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

paradiselost

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Re: An Idea is just an Idea (Part 1)
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2001, 03:14:26 AM »

...I hope all us we'll not be able to predict all it happening and it's happened...

...in Italy we say usually...

"curiosity killed the cat"

;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »