Episode 263
- Thread starter Jhot obs
- Start date
Well, that and reasons I exposed in old threads. Who knows though.Aazealh said:Hey there silentmoon, welcome to the board.
Not sure about saving the Pontiff, but rallying more troops wouldn't hurt him, that's for sure. However, these armies are from a conglomerate of nations, they're not just from Midland, so for Griffith to integrate them in the Hawks would mean getting authority over a lot of countries, and overriding the Holy See.
If what you said were to happen I would see him more as leading them against the Kushans (organizing the strategy, telling the different generals what to do, etc), rather than taking complete control (they'd become a friendly support to Midland against the Kushans, rather than vultures). That would be an easy way to gain support from a lot of people at once, he'd then be plebiscited as the new king by virtually everybody.
All the Nations besides Ys seem to be allied only because of their mutual inclusion of the Holy See, so what better recommendation to lead the Alliance can Griffith get than that of the Pontiff? Other than that Griffith has no claim to the forces because of thier orginal nations.
I dont believe its his apostle for either, I'm beting Ganishka's apostle form has a huge mouth with lots of outward swinging teeth just from the look of the familiar's.
His powers are definatly more than a normal apostle would probably have. He's most definatly a wizard or magic user, probably before he even became an apostle and combines the inherent special apostle abilities and strength with his magical prowess to truly be incredible.
His powers are definatly more than a normal apostle would probably have. He's most definatly a wizard or magic user, probably before he even became an apostle and combines the inherent special apostle abilities and strength with his magical prowess to truly be incredible.
Opie said:
Well, Ys is part of the Holy See, and I think they could decide to ally themselves to the others against the Kushans, for now we can't be sure (I imagine we'll know more about this if we learn about the missive Roderick delivered). About the alliance, I'd say the Kushan threat still had to be big for them to ally themselves, that's what motivated them though the Holy See obviously played an important part in it. Concerning the Pontiff, saving him would help for sure, I agree. However, given the current situation, we can only assume what his condition/situation/location is, that's why I didn't comment on it. And I imagine that saving the armies stationed at Vritannis from annihilation at the hands of the Kushans could be sufficient to convince them to fight following Griffith's battle plan.
Now, adding a touch of wild speculation, maybe the Holy See isn't as clueless as we could think. They've got a prophecy concerning the Hawk of Darkness after all, so could some individuals be wary of Griffith and his too-good-to-be-true come back? Not to mention his "unusual" army.
HawaiianStallion said:
I also imagine it resembling something like this.
HawaiianStallion said:
Yes, actually the episodes where he's first introduced don't leave a lot of doubt about this.
Rhombaad said:
I dont know if that's really a reason since it seems to most normal human's he looks like an angel because of his deeds against the devilish kushans and his incredible aura. Its more likely most of those who havent allied with them think they can do it alone against the kushans, or some other stupid reason. Most humans barely know how the world really works except for wizards and witch's, and those like Guts who've seen how it really works and they are far and few.
Majin_Tenshi
The can opener went bye-bye...
Funny, but not happening.
Noble: "Hey, weren't you the leader of The Hawk's Raiding party?"
Guts:"hahaha, yea, sure, and this crazy lady was their famous female commander"
Noble: "Hey, weren't you the leader of The Hawk's Raiding party?"
Guts:"hahaha, yea, sure, and this crazy lady was their famous female commander"
Not if he sticks to Guts' group. Staying with'em improves his survival rate a couple of times.
Miura can always move attention to the Hawks who should be near Vritannis and return to the boat when it gets to Skellig (which would be a waste so I guess he'll try to show both the Hawks and do some character development for the Guts group)
Remember the count from the early volumes (the one who called GH upon death) who possessed one of his top men injured by Guts with a "part of him" (which shared the mind with the count but it's existence or death didn't mean much for the original apostle). Ganishka and the fog in the familiars may be more less the same thing.
ROTFL
About Griffith and whether The neoHawks will come to Vritannis' aid:
The armies at Vritannis are (were?) quite a force. They could diminish the glory that Griffith's army gets if they fought the Kushan separately. (It would be Giffith and the armies of [long list] who saved Midland and Griff probably wouldn't like to share the splendor).
Maybe Griff will wait nearby (he should be near ATM, since it didn't take that long for Sonja to get back to the camp) until the armies in the city suffer enough losses, then enter the ruined city, slay the Kushan invaders and rally the remaining troops under the Hawks banner.
It's not quite fair play, but I guess he could do that.
And one last thing:
Hi! This is my first post here. Hopefully I'll stay for long
Welcome to the boards, dembol.
I too, can see a switch in perspectives to Griffith's group (theres quite a few decent characters that need building) should Guts' group set sail. That switch would at least make the time go faster should there be an uneventful voyage.
However, with there being a Kushan presence on the sea, the likelyhood of a completely safe voyage is unlikely...
I too, can see a switch in perspectives to Griffith's group (theres quite a few decent characters that need building) should Guts' group set sail. That switch would at least make the time go faster should there be an uneventful voyage.
However, with there being a Kushan presence on the sea, the likelyhood of a completely safe voyage is unlikely...
Yea going with what you said, Roderick's boat will probably be destroyed by a Kushan boat, and Guts and "crew" will take over a Kushan warship =).
For all we know there might be things worse than the kushan living at sea from ocean dwelling apostles to sea monsters of some sort (though I doubt this a bit seeing as the natural animals of the world seem to be nearl entirely based on our own).
I always wondered if Griffith cares enough about Guts and his Party still to try and hamper their trip to Elfhelm. Perhaps sending some apostles in a boat after them or to try and stop them from arriving beforehand? Who know's, I'm not even sure Griffith know's exactly what they're doing.
I always wondered if Griffith cares enough about Guts and his Party still to try and hamper their trip to Elfhelm. Perhaps sending some apostles in a boat after them or to try and stop them from arriving beforehand? Who know's, I'm not even sure Griffith know's exactly what they're doing.
Dembol said:Hi! This is my first post here. Hopefully I'll stay for long
Hey Dembol, welcome to SK.net.
Dembol said:
And you think he's going to go to Elfhelm with them? Or even to the ship? I don't think it's likely.
Dembol said:
There are a few important differences I think. Zondark was a pseudo-apostle (like Rochine's "children" and guardians, or Mozgus and his disciples) while the familiars are controlled by magic (from what Schierke said) for example. I think it's more interesting to focus on the casters in this case, since they're the ones we see small Ganishka fog figures coming out from. It's quite possible that he transmits them some of his power that way.
Dembol said:
The Holy See alliance didn't really plan to "save" Midland though. And for now I think they're more concerned about saving their own asses.
Nevertheless it's true and it's been said in the past that if they took an important part in fighting the Kushans it could be a nuisance to Griffith's savior act, that's why most people assume that their armies will be completely (or almost) destroyed during this battle. No matter what happens I don't think they would be able to do much in regard to the Neo Hawks' accomplishments anyway. This is all relatively complicated though and we still lack crucial information to show any confidence about it, it should become clearer once we get to see more of the battle.HawaiianStallion said:
Hmm, I doubt that honestly. I don't think he would want to show Guts that he cares about him, he doesn't have any ship as far as we know, and he's got more important business to attend to (Ganishka). Besides like you said, nothing shows that Griffith knows what they're up to. I also wonder how apostles would fare in such a confined place in the middle of the sea.
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
I agree, Griffith is too focused on his own goal right now, that of becoming King. I don't think he even regards Guts as a threat (although I have nothing to back this upAazealh said:
) since he is a God Hand. He probably knows of the Elf King, but I doubt he believes Guts wants anything to do with him.I think that he'll go with them until they get to the ship (or maybe sail for a very short bit and they'll drop him just 'around the corner' in a small boat;)). He's seen their power and ability to fight the Kushan so if he judges his chances correctly then he'll figure that he's safer with them than with the other nobles and since Rodrick's ship is not in the main harbor (but somewhere further away) then it may be easier to escape from the city from there and bring the news he gets from Guts (if he gets any) to Raban.
Well that's why I wrote that it's 'more or less the same'. The resemblance just hit me when I was reading one of the previous posts. I guess we'll have to wait for more fights against Kushan to find out the whole stuff behind it.
Mhm, yeah, but when they'd fight Kushans (and if managed to succeed) they'd automatically free (or rather take into their custody) the Midland's territory so it would be a bit like 'saving' it.
Dembol said:
I doubt Roderick would do that for him, especially after what he said in this episode. Magnifico is his friend so it's one thing to do it for him, but not Owen. And I think it'd be a bit awkward if he just came along like they were good friends, it's more in his interest to stay with the other nobles and the guards. Besides, in this case Owen would go toward the danger (port, and the sea in general) rather than away from it, not the best way to escape for him IMHO.
Dembol said:
It's really more like they'd annex it, remember what Magnifico said in episode 254: "Although the official reason for this war is to reclaim lands of the Holy See taken during the Kushan invasion, the real reason for many countries is to gain the most land from Midland. Even though they defeat the Kushan, it is predictable that each country's army will not give up its share of Midland's territory."
So much for saving, they're just planning to share a ruined and defenseless Midland between themselves basically. Anyway since defeating the Kushans is now just a dream I expect them all to revise their plans, if they still are in a position to plan anything at dawn that is.
We might need to take a second look at Griffith's intentions. A while ago he destroyed Flora, and it looks like he wants to eliminate all that oppose him. Maybe he doesn't even plan on attacking Vritannis and saving all the nobles. He might attack Ganishka himself at home and take him out when his army is split.
silentmoon said:
Well, first off, there's certainly nothing indicating for sure that Griffith will save anybody in Vritannis. He and the Neo Hawks might very well just attack the Kushan army after the Holy See alliance has either fled (what would remain of it) or been decimated. It's even been speculated that they could destroy the Holy See alliance themselves actually.
Now, about Ganishka, let's not forget that Griffith was in Wyndham and that he avoided a direct fight. Back then a lot of people assumed that Griffith would get rid of him like the bug he was, but instead Locus, Irvine and their men acted as a mere lure so that he could save Charlotte. If it was so easy to defeat Ganishka, one could wonder why Griffith didn't do it at that time, he even lost a few apostles in the process and we know that he's a great tactician. And now the Hawks' camp is near Vritannis, lowering the possibility of a second incursion in Wyndham for the moment (though we don't know what Rakshas and the others are up to).
All of this leads me to believe that vanquishing the Kushans might not be so easy, assuming of course that Griffith didn't delay Ganishka's demise only so that he'd take care of the Holy See alliance.
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
Aazealh said:
Perhaps Griffith doesn't know the full extent of Ganishka's power. Since Ganishka has been around long before Griffith's time (as both a human and Femto) he might not know too much about him, other than the fact that he's the self-proclaimed strongest Apostle on earth. Then again, the knowledge of past Apostles and of the world may have been given to Griffith when he became Femto, and he's got something else up his sleeve. As you say, he may want Ganishka to take out the Holy See (or maybe have them fight each other so that both parties lose a significant number of their troops).
I suppose either situation is possible, I'd lean on the idea that Griffith/Femto was aware of Ganishka in some way. The ability of a god hand to foresee the future is limited (or they can't see the intricate details), but Ganishka is a pretty major piece of the puzzle.
But, I do like to think Griffith's omniscience is limited, so who knows...
But, I do like to think Griffith's omniscience is limited, so who knows...
Herald of Yama
"It is pure Potential"
Somehow, I believe that Griffith's current goal is to become King of Midland. Emperor of the World can come afterwards. To secure this speedily, and with the full and immediate acceptance of the feudal hierarchy which makes up the current world order, he needs two things: A country called Midland, and an heiress to the Midland throne he can marry. There are other methods, like military conquest, but they leave a bad aftertaste with the conquered people, and don't receive widespread acceptance. In other words, taking the worl by force is a huge pain in the ass and takes forever to accomplish. Griff is not only a superb tactician, he's also a very impatient ,uh, thing.
Yes, he could have attacked Ganishka head on in Wyndham, but there's no telling what kind of devastation that would have caused to the city. Also, Charlotte might have been killed in the process of doing so. Therefore, it was prudent to exact her rescue first. Moreover, if Griff had defeated Ganishka then and there, it does not necessarily mean he has defeated all of the Kushan. If they're not out of the picture, the greedy bastards from the Holy See Alliance would no doubt come in to "liberate" Midland's outlying territories, and it would be another Hundred Years War for Griff to fight. What a pain. So, he lets the Kushan crush the HSA, then when they've exhausted their resources, mop up Ganishka, demoralize them, run them out of the country, marry Charlotte in pomp, and then (A) set about tending to the country's internal improvement, or (B) declare a war of retribution on the Kushan to acquire more territory.
Yes, he could have attacked Ganishka head on in Wyndham, but there's no telling what kind of devastation that would have caused to the city. Also, Charlotte might have been killed in the process of doing so. Therefore, it was prudent to exact her rescue first. Moreover, if Griff had defeated Ganishka then and there, it does not necessarily mean he has defeated all of the Kushan. If they're not out of the picture, the greedy bastards from the Holy See Alliance would no doubt come in to "liberate" Midland's outlying territories, and it would be another Hundred Years War for Griff to fight. What a pain. So, he lets the Kushan crush the HSA, then when they've exhausted their resources, mop up Ganishka, demoralize them, run them out of the country, marry Charlotte in pomp, and then (A) set about tending to the country's internal improvement, or (B) declare a war of retribution on the Kushan to acquire more territory.
Lliugusamui
around the corner
Hoy.
Personnally I think Guts' band and the Roddettes will have more to confront with Daiba than Griffith. Indeed, since his incarnation, he's quite in the mood of getting this Castle, and Guts has taken a subordinate place in his prerogatives. As for Owen, I kinda think he would stay in Vrittanis, as Aazealh pointed out : even if it isn't quite secure, he should see his presence as a duty to his rank. Raban sure wouln't flee an assaulted place. However, depending of the evolution of the chaos here, he could find himself engulfed in the battles and next to Guts and Casca. He might want to report the incidents to Raban and the resistance in Wyndham, or even bring with him an army of freedom - Neo Hawks or Guts&Skellig forces?
Let's settle it, this chapter is called Falconia. Griffith is gonna rise, and he won't do it slowly. Imho, he could very well go near Vrittanis not to save anyone but to see the Pontiff of the Holy See Alliance. If he married Charlotte, heiress of Midland's ruined kingdom, in front of the shivering Pontiff, before going to Vritannis and eradicate enemy forces; he would appear not only as a King of Midland, but as a legendary figure in the Holy See who could take care of the people needs. Indeed, since the health of the Pontiff, he even could build up his new order : Falconia, a new Empire based on the Holy See prophecy of the Hawk of Light, ripping out the "Dark Hawk" (Ganishka) and all his black sheep.
I think the existence of Ganishka is doing good for his ambition : instead of becoming King of a poor Midland, Griffith is going to settle a new world, full of fantasy, and he will rule all, like a so-called Gaiseric made a while back.
Just a bit of speculation here, this could be all wrong of course^^
Personnally I think Guts' band and the Roddettes will have more to confront with Daiba than Griffith. Indeed, since his incarnation, he's quite in the mood of getting this Castle, and Guts has taken a subordinate place in his prerogatives. As for Owen, I kinda think he would stay in Vrittanis, as Aazealh pointed out : even if it isn't quite secure, he should see his presence as a duty to his rank. Raban sure wouln't flee an assaulted place. However, depending of the evolution of the chaos here, he could find himself engulfed in the battles and next to Guts and Casca. He might want to report the incidents to Raban and the resistance in Wyndham, or even bring with him an army of freedom - Neo Hawks or Guts&Skellig forces?
Let's settle it, this chapter is called Falconia. Griffith is gonna rise, and he won't do it slowly. Imho, he could very well go near Vrittanis not to save anyone but to see the Pontiff of the Holy See Alliance. If he married Charlotte, heiress of Midland's ruined kingdom, in front of the shivering Pontiff, before going to Vritannis and eradicate enemy forces; he would appear not only as a King of Midland, but as a legendary figure in the Holy See who could take care of the people needs. Indeed, since the health of the Pontiff, he even could build up his new order : Falconia, a new Empire based on the Holy See prophecy of the Hawk of Light, ripping out the "Dark Hawk" (Ganishka) and all his black sheep.
I think the existence of Ganishka is doing good for his ambition : instead of becoming King of a poor Midland, Griffith is going to settle a new world, full of fantasy, and he will rule all, like a so-called Gaiseric made a while back.
Just a bit of speculation here, this could be all wrong of course^^
I like your speculation, and I am waiting to see the role of the pontiff (he should have a big role in Berserk role).
However, according to what we have seen in volume 5 or 6, Griffith loves to show the strength of his army in front of important people. So, IMHO, he would rather go to Vritannis to show his strength to the others armies (quite decimated I suppose). To save the pontiff is not excluded and can really help him for the future (when he "save" the king of Midland in Volume 5 or 6 he became noble and one of the King's favourite).
However, according to what we have seen in volume 5 or 6, Griffith loves to show the strength of his army in front of important people. So, IMHO, he would rather go to Vritannis to show his strength to the others armies (quite decimated I suppose). To save the pontiff is not excluded and can really help him for the future (when he "save" the king of Midland in Volume 5 or 6 he became noble and one of the King's favourite).