Author Topic: The Underlying Vein  (Read 11362 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
The Underlying Vein
« on: May 30, 2006, 04:51:54 PM »
Most of us here at SKnet, myself included, are at the mercy of translators to explain the deeper connections and subtleties of the kanji used in Berserk.  We'll always get a general understanding of the words, but often that's just not enough to satisfy me.  In my studies, including the translations we have, and with Puella and Aaz's help, I've seen a coorelation between many of the major elements of the series that just can't be denied.  I've written this as sort of a guide to the major correlations between the Idea of Evil, the Abyss, the Beherits and the Beherit-Sword, that would otherwise be lost without a focused study.

While many of the inner workings of the Berserk universe are still unknown, we can draw a common theme from those we do know: water.  This may sound insignificant at first, however once one takes into account all the various instances of its usage, one begins to see that it all stems from the same source.

Causality, the most influential force in the Berserk world, has twice been alluded to in metaphors of water.  In Albion, the Skull Knight tells Guts that this world is like the moon's reflection on a river, and that only the moon itself can alter its reflection. After Femto's Occultation, Slan says that Skull Knight is a fish swimming against the flow of causality, and that a mere jumping fish cannot alter the flow of the river.  By themselves, these are merely clever and practical metaphors for causality.  However, the Skull Knight and Slan’s choice of water as the primary metaphor here can easily be seen as intentional and collaborative, given the other examples of it spread throughout the series.

Flora explains that the universe expands in three dimensions, not only two.  At the deepest point of the world lies the Abyss, a sea of primordial water.  The Abyss is the cradle for the Idea of Evil, a name which contains perhaps the most enigmatic and revealing use of “water.” “The Idea” in Idea of Evil translates to “origin / source,” in the context of “source of water”. But, not just any water: primordial water.  For those unfamiliar with the term primordial, it refers to the giant ocean in ancient times where all organisms lived.

Knowing that primordial waters are what humans evolved from, reading them in conjunction with female amniotic fluid seems natural.  It should come as no surprise then, when the Skull Knight refers to Slan as “Harawada no Shouki”, or “Courtesan of the Uterine World,” in reference to the Qliphoth being her womb (or Uterus), and perhaps also at Slan, a member of God Hand’s origin: The Abyss.

Another intrinsic connection to the primordial waters is the scene of Griffith sinking deeper and deeper into the Abyss.  He sheds his last tears, which we see falling into the Abyss, creating a splash, a ripple, then rising to the surface as beherits: formed from primordial water. The Idea of Evil then refers to them as “Ikai e no yobimizu” or “drops of primed water [opening a portal leading to another world],” in reference to their dimensional summoning capabilities.

The name of the Skull Knight’s hidden weapon, “Yobimizu no Tsurugi” also contains this word. However, when Skull Knight says the word, it’s a bit different. His sword, covered in Beherits, changes the “Yobi” kanji (originally word for “to call”, or in this case the portal opening) to another slightly different one, amplifying its meaning.  In this way, the Beherits no longer summon a dimensional plane but cut through it.

In conjunction, these examples reveal the underlying vein through the course of the series.  The primordial waters of the Abyss are at the core of every major mystery surrounding the Idea of Evil, the most powerful and influential element in the series.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 04:56:23 PM »
Nice essay you have there. :SK: I think it's a very interesting topic and a good example of the series' depth, a meaningfulness that can unfortunately easily be overlooked.

Offline handsome rakshas

  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1512
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Thanks Grail!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 08:44:42 PM »
Beautifully said, Walter.  :void:
I find that Slan being the "Harawada no Shouki" very interesting.
Like Aaz said, this is a great example of the depth of this series.
This also makes me very concerned whether or not Dark Horse will hit the right mark on these topics when its time to translate these volumes. Not getting all the meaningfulness of these topics will make the "Knight of Skeleton" thing look like a drop in the bucket. I know that any errors will be pointed out by the experts here on Skullknight, but I'm very concerned about Dark Horse's ability to do all the major (and minor) details justice with the translation this wonderful story deserves. Any one else as scared as I am?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 09:23:14 PM »
This also makes me very concerned whether or not Dark Horse will hit the right mark on these topics when its time to translate these volumes.

They're not going to convey the subtleties nor the underlying meaning on these words. They just can't. Because Berserk is written in Japanese and that no matter how skilled the translator it's just impossible to convey everything. Not in English, not in French, not in Italian, not in Spanish, not in German, etc.

The only way for them would be to make appendixes with detailed notes, but that's not going to happen.

Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 09:44:20 PM »
You'r right about it, the "official" translations are not very accurate and every time I read the French translation it really make me sick...
Back to the topic, the theory sound interesting relating the basics of Berserk's universe to water may work but the only way to prove a speculation is to show how it can help predict something so it's all up to you I suppose ;)
Arf...

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2006, 09:54:15 PM »
Thanks for the praise, but honestly I just put all these facts together in a cohesive concept (thread).  Aaz and Puella did all the real research, which is spread around the board.

The only way for them would be to make appendixes with detailed notes, but that's not going to happen.
That's what this is for :badbone:

but the only way to prove a speculation is to show how it can help predict something so it's all up to you I suppose ;)
Not really. That's just the most common use of this section of the board.  What I'm doing is just barely speculation.  It's just not solid enough to call "fact" yet.  I'm speculating that these seemingly factual evidences are all tied together.  Outside of that, the evidence I provide isn't based on speculation or assumption at all.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Rhombaad

  • Old Fart in Training
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 4192
  • Karma: 43
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 10:30:26 PM »
Cool, thanks for posting that, Walter.  And thanks to Aazealh and Puella for their research!  Very interesting stuff. :serpico:

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 10:37:07 PM »
the theory sound interesting relating the basics of Berserk's universe to water may work

It's not a theory. The basics of the Berserk universe are related to water, it's pretty obvious. It's how Kentarou Miura made Berserk, it's the words he used and the images he drew. You can't predict something that already happened. And since to have to explain this annoys me I'm moving this thread to Manga Mausoleum.

Like Walter said (and very well at that), these are all hard facts and most of them are already related to each other in the story, the only thing he assumes in his essay is that they're all tied together.

Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2006, 04:58:38 AM »
Okay I did not understand it in that way
BTW when I said that a theory have to prove his predictable power I mean since you understand the basics of something it allow you to someway foretell  events/phenomens  related to it...but when I think about it now this approach seems a little bit too "scientific"(cartésienne) to be applied in a fiction...
(I'm going back to the bed now)
Arf...

Offline puella

  • Gourmet Elf
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2358
  • Karma: 679
  • Gender: Female
  • Popopopopopopopo!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2006, 04:02:48 PM »
Nice job, Walter. This must be some very helpful speculation for the average member.

It should come as no surprise then, when the Skull Knight refers to Slan as “Harawada no Shouki”, or “Courtesan of the Uterine World,” in reference to the Qliphoth being her womb (or Uterus), and perhaps also at Slan, a member of God Hand’s origin: The Abyss.
To reinforce your comment, the second kanji itself means "sea" in the words "harawada".

Quote
The name of the Skull Knight’s hidden weapon, “Yobimizu no Tsurugi” also contains this word. However, when Skull Knight says the word, it’s a bit different. His sword, covered in Beherits, changes the “Yobi” kanji (originally word for “to call”, or in this case the portal opening) to another slightly different one, amplifying its meaning.  In this way, the Beherits no longer summon a dimensional plane but cut through it.
Here is my personal thought on the reason Miura used two different kanji with a close meaning for "yobi". The "yobi" for Beherit makes it so "yobimizu" means "primed water (呼び水)" and the other "yobi" for SK's sword (喚び水の剣) is to convey the meaning of each kanji: "call for water".

Offline trapped_soul

  • Griffith fanboy
  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • "This is it. It's over."
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2006, 05:02:51 PM »
yeah the concept makes a lot of sense.
it's indeed the way miura chose to depict fate... or rather causality.

speaking of water, another element that comes up - in relation to Griffith - is fire. the members of the original hawks were carrying their their torches to a huge _flame_ called "Griffith" in order to make their own flame survive.
right now the neo-hawks are at his side for the same reason i guess.

Griffith also mentions that "negative emotions can all be burned away with fire" while he is with Charlotte for the first time. i don't remember the exact words but this is the general meaning of his words.
Griffith also extinguished the queen's life with fire.

Since fire is the elemental counterpart to water, could this be a hint that the Ultimate Strong One is the one who is going to "transcend causality"?

-TS

P.S.
I don't know if Griffith has ever been related to as a "flame" after his transformation, cause if that's not the case this could also be taken the other way around: The Idea of Evil used the primordial waters to extinguish Griffith's flame and to make him its most powerful "servant".
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 06:04:59 PM by trapped_soul »

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2006, 05:10:22 PM »
It's not simply Water though, it's referring to Primordial Waters.  Your examples of fire are just clever metaphors Miura used to express his point (that dont even relate to each other, really).  There isn't a deeper, Astral significance to "fire", which is the whole point of my post. And the members of Griffith's Apostle Army are serving their master and "god," not the same reasons as the Hawks' motivation at all.

However, if you're deadset on this interpretation, make a Theme of FIre speculation thread, please.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline trapped_soul

  • Griffith fanboy
  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • "This is it. It's over."
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 05:27:20 PM »
However, if you're deadset on this interpretation, make a Theme of FIre speculation thread, please.

no i am not at all "headset"   :void: now that was stupid.

Quote
There isn't a deeper, Astral significance to "fire", which is the whole point of my post.

how about Guts nature on the Astral plane then? isn't it made of fire?
also just because it hasn't explicitly been mentioned yet, you can't exclude the possibility that "fire" has an Astral significance.
I do realize that this is wild speculation as opposed to your essay which is based on detailed research. so if this annoyes you i'll stop here, i definitely won't create a new thread for this idea.

i do consider it a plausible thought however.

Quote
And Griffith's Apostle Army are serving their master and "god," not the same reasons as the Hawks' motivation at all.
what is the difference exactly? Griffith was the "master" for the original hawks and for some close to a "god". i guess it's not totally unrelated as you describe it. strong warriors gather around the one they can't transcend, the one believe in.

-TS

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2006, 06:01:33 PM »
it's indeed the way miura chose to depict fate... or rather causality.

The essay isn't about Causality. That was just an introduction to the general theme. I think you should re-read it.

the members of the original hawks were carrying their their torches to a huge _flame_ called "Griffith" in order to make their own flame survive.

That's just one metaphor.

Griffith also mentions that "negative emotions can all be burned away with fire" while he is with Charlotte for the first time.

Yeah, a neat figure of speech. Doesn't mean anything in particular though. In fact it's just not relevant with the rest, and the way you're relating this with the bonfire of dreams analogy is pretty superficial and dare I say far fetched.

Griffith also distinguished the queen's life with fire.

I take it you mean extinguished? Extinguished with fire... Hmmm what an interesting concept. But Griffith plays with water (along with Guts) in volume 5, doesn't that link him to water?! :schierke:

Since fire is the elemental counterpart to water, could this be a hint that the Ultimate Strong One is the one who is going to "transcend causality"?

I don't think so. I don't think Griffith is the embodiment of fire anyway, and I'm sure you can realize that the parallel you're making isn't very pertinent. Besides Griffith didn't transcend Causality at all, he became Femto just like it was planned. For all we know he might as well be called a champion of Causality (and once again, Walter's essay isn't about Causality itself).

I don't know if Griffith has ever been related to as a "flame" after his transformation

He was never really related to a flame. In the bonfire of dreams scene, even though he's shown as a flaming figure himself, his dream is the big flame others bring their own flame (dream) to. And because he's the living incarnation of his dream (and we could say of the concept of "having a dream" itself), Guts relates him to the big flame directly. Anyway this thread isn't supposed to be about Griffith...

also just because it hasn't explicitly been mentioned yet, you can't exclude the possibility that "fire" has an Astral significance.

Yeah, like with Karma fire for example. That has nothing to do with your examples though. And the importance of the concept of water this thread is about goes really deeper than just metaphors.

I do realize that this is wild speculation as opposed to your essay which is based on detailed research. so if this annoyes you i'll stop here, i definitely won't create a new thread for this idea.

Well, the problem is that this isn't Speculation Nation, and you're really just speculating without having any basis for your theory here. I don't think continuing the discussion in this thread would be appropriate. You can always make a new one however, like Walter said.

what is the difference exactly? Griffith was the "master" for the original hawks and for some close to a "god".

No. The words are different, the ideas behind them too. He was their leader and they idolized him, but it's not the same thing at all.

Some Guy

  • Guest
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 03:39:24 AM »
Great work on this guys. :badbone:

  Its really interesting the depth that Japanese kanji can add to dialogue that most foreigners (such as myself) would never pick up on.  I've read some of the listed connections and translations in older threads, but some of them, particularly those involving Skullknight's Yobimizu no Tsurugi and Griffith's tears dripping into Beherits, are completely new to me.  Very nice and cohesive

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 07:50:34 AM »
Griffith's tears dripping into Beherits

Just to make this clear in case it's not, the tears themselves don't become beherits, they just fall into water (like some kind of underground lake) and create a ripple. As Griffith falls deeper and closer to this ripple, he sees droplets rising (going up, possibly toward the real world) around him, and then notices that they're beherits.

The next scene could be even more interesting as what lies beyond these waters, under the surface, reveals itself to be the Idea of Evil. And that's not in the lost episode, it's undoubtedly canon (wasn't cut from the story). :badbone:

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15863
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2006, 09:20:41 AM »
Just to make this clear in case it's not, the tears themselves don't become beherits, they just fall into water (like some kind of underground lake) and create a ripple.
Indeed, I should have been more clear on this.  Me and Aazealh had a discussion about it prior to the posting of the topic. I came to the conclusion that while the tears certainly seem to be the catalyst for the Beherits to rise, that doesn't make them the tears.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Iscariot

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • The snack that smiles back!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2006, 07:51:53 AM »
I'd also like to bring up Episodes 236-238 for further evidence. Schierke's comments concerning the ocean and the appearance of the Child of Moonlight are obvious hints towards the enigmatic power of water.

EDIT: Just had another idea: Elfhelm is situatated on an island. Skellig is said to be uncharted, and it's been mentioned that ships don't return after searching for it (Or am i imagining that last part?). This could be evidence that the island is connected to the Astral plane, similar to Qliphoth. Also, wouldn't an island be the ideal place for dealing with magic? It is explicitly stated multiple times that many witches and wizards live in Elfhelm. Now that could just be because it is the mystical kingdom of elves, but the fact that it's an island could be enough.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 08:57:56 AM by Iscariot »

Offline Skeleton

  • Falconian
  • Of the Nexus
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Karma: 71
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2006, 02:42:31 PM »
Very interesting! And a great post! Thank you for sharing it with us.

I'd like to bring up a few points for discussion.

In many religions, philosophies, and cultures, the spritual world, thought/ideas, and emotions are represented by or connected to the element water.  I can definitely see Miura knowing this (given how much he knows and has shown he knows in Berserk about other cultures/ideas) and would probably work it into the manga.  That'd explain why a lot of the spiritual/supernatural/otherworldy things are water-like (fluid). 

I completely agree with you about the primordial sea being at the core of ever major mystery.  Primordial itself means "being or happening first in sequence of time; original" and "primary or fundamental" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Primordial) so I can see the Idea Of Evil (and the primordial sea it's situated in) as being the origin of pretty much everything (through Casualty).  I'm not sure I'd make the leap to amniotic fluid though.  In my humble opinion, I think SK's comment about the Uterine was just the fact that she's female and, like you said, the Qliphoth is her womb.  However, one could argue that amniotic fluid, in a sense, is the primordial fluid from which humans come... But that's still far-fetched.  I still think it has a connection though, just not that.  Amniotic fluid is "the watery liquid surrounding and cushioning a growing fetus within the amnion. It allows the fetus to move freely without the walls of the uterus being too tight against its body. Buoyancy is also provided." (Wikipedia)  I read that and the first thing that came to mind was the Idea of Evil.  You stated that the primordial sea is the cradle for the Idea of Evil.  That sounds an aweful lot like a fetus being cradled in amniotic fluid.  Also, just like a fetus, the Idea of Evil was created by man (man desired for the destiny that kept transcending its knowledge hence the Idea Of Evil was born to provide the reason).  One could state that perhaps the Idea Of Evil itself is some kind of developing fetus (the fetus of human consciousness) but that's just speculation.

Again, a great post, my friend, and thank you for writing it, I very much enjoyed reading it.  :serpico:

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2006, 02:55:29 PM »
Hey there guys, welcome to the board. Allow me to address some of the points you've raised. :SK:

I'd also like to bring up Episodes 236-238 for further evidence. Schierke's comments concerning the ocean and the appearance of the Child of Moonlight are obvious hints towards the enigmatic power of water.

That's much more anecdotic though, especially concerning the moonlight child. Schierke's comment on the ocean is interesting in the same way SK's insult to Slan is, although nothing allows us to directly connect it to the deeper notion of water shown with other terms for now. I'm surprised Walter didn't mention it actually, now that you've said so.

it's been mentioned that ships don't return after searching for it (Or am i imagining that last part?).

You're imagining it yeah.

This could be evidence that the island is connected to the Astral plane, similar to Qliphoth. Also, wouldn't an island be the ideal place for dealing with magic?

I'm afraid that's mostly unrelated. Being connected to the astral plane isn't that uncommon in itself and if magic users were only in need of an island they wouldn't go through the trouble of living on Skellig, it's not the only island in the world. It's clearly because of Elfhelm IMO.

In many religions, philosophies, and cultures, the spritual world, thought/ideas, and emotions are represented by or connected to the element water.  I can definitely see Miura knowing this and would probably work it into the manga.  That'd explain why a lot of the spiritual/supernatural/otherworldy things are water-like (fluid).

Well yeah, that's not exactly breaking news, although I think it might have been interesting for you to cite what cultures you're talking about and give some details about them. However, I don't think that explains anything in particular regarding the precise use of water related terms in Berserk, especially given the context in which they're used. It just shows that there's a historical background for the concept of water being central to the world, which in itself isn't of much help for us.

I completely agree with you about the primordial sea being at the core of ever major mystery.

Maybe not every major mystery, that's going a bit too far. It's central to the underlying depths of the Berserk world (hence the title) and the principles that rule it but for now we've yet to see a more tangible connexion to all the major elements of the story.

Primordial itself means "being or happening first in sequence of time; original" and "primary or fundamental" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Primordial) so I can see the Idea Of Evil (and the primordial sea it's situated in) as being the origin of pretty much everything (through Casualty).

About these definitions you're quoting, I think you need to remember that the words are originally in Japanese. So basing yourself on the specifics of English definitions for these words may not be too pertinent. Also the Idea of Evil isn't at the origin of everything (don't forget that it was created by men, that makes it impossible), its name just implies that it's the source of Evil in the world (and even that is disputable as an assertion). Plus a minor remark: it's causality, not casualty.

I'm not sure I'd make the leap to amniotic fluid though.  In my humble opinion, I think SK's comment about the Uterine was just the fact that she's female and, like you said, the Qliphoth is her womb.  However, one could argue that amniotic fluid, in a sense, is the primordial fluid from which humans come... But that's still far-fetched.

Not that much actually. Like Puella said, SK used a word that means "sea" when he said so, and amniotic fluid and the primordial sea both have strong connotations in common, the fact they nurture life for example. Your own remarks on the matter speak for themselves. It's obviously not a direct relation but then again for now the main elements concerned here are just the Abyss, the Idea and the beherits (including SK's sword).

One could state that perhaps the Idea Of Evil itself is some kind of developing fetus (the fetus of human consciousness) but that's just speculation.

Hmm I don't really think that analogy's valid. We can make a parallel because the Idea of Evil was born from the Abyss, but as far as we know it has already reached maturity, and did so long ago. Besides it can't be said to be "the foetus of human consciousness," that would somehow contradict what the Idea of Evil says in episode 83.

Offline Uriel

  • 天下無敵者
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2045
  • Karma: 41
  • Gender: Male
  • This journey isn't ov--AARGH!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2006, 04:31:48 PM »
Really interesting idea, Walter. I'll be saving this topic :badbone:

The only other thing I can think of, if it hasn't already been mentioned, is that it always seems that Guts is 'drowing' in the Od of the Armour. It could be my interpretation of the imagery, but I always get that impression. Perhaps it's because of the time Schierke pulled him up to the 'surface' back in Episode 243?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2006, 04:34:53 PM »
The only other thing I can think of, if it hasn't already been mentioned, is that it always seems that Guts is 'drowing' in the Od of the Armour.

Hmm well actually, its Od has been referred to as a flame, so that's a bit contradictory.

Perhaps it's because of the time Schierke pulled him up to the 'surface' back in Episode 243?

If it's the case, keep in mind that it was because they were near the ocean, that's what the imagery was about.

Offline Iscariot

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • The snack that smiles back!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2006, 10:33:07 AM »
That's much more anecdotic though, especially concerning the moonlight child. Schierke's comment on the ocean is interesting in the same way SK's insult to Slan is, although nothing allows us to directly connect it to the deeper notion of water shown with other terms for now. I'm surprised Walter didn't mention it actually, now that you've said so.
That may be so, but don't you think that Miura had addressed the topic for a more substantial reason? I doubt it was just a passing comment meant to show how mysterious the magic world in Berserk really is. Maybe he was just trying to connect the moonlight child to water for later reference. Who knows?

You're imagining it yeah.
I should probably cite sources for evidence, shouldn't I? :serpico: Lesson learned.

I'm afraid that's mostly unrelated. Being connected to the astral plane isn't that uncommon in itself and if magic users were only in need of an island they wouldn't go through the trouble of living on Skellig, it's not the only island in the world. It's clearly because of Elfhelm IMO.
After rereading my edit, yes, my conjecture doesn't seem very concrete. The idea I failed to establish is that Skellig could be important to magic users for a more complicated reason. Could the presence or blessing of the elves amplify the inherent magic connected to the ocean? Perhaps. And yes, there have to be many islands in the world of Berserk, but Guts and company have yet to venture to one. We can't necessarily say magic users don't favor islands.
And on a speculative note, consider...
Daiba: He's a caster, and he is also a naval leader. (Weak, I know, but not all of Ganishka's direct subordinates are magic users, e.g. Silat.)
Ganishka: Probably one of the strongest magic users in the Berserk world, he uses a fog form often.
Where Griffith's Beherit returned to him: a pond. Or whatever it was...
The red sea: Now this was actually made of blood, not water, but it did hold a strong prophetic connotation to the HICKs.
Water is undeniably an important part of the Berserk series in general, so I'm trying to determine how the idea can be used to specifically interpret the more cryptic elements of the series (like magic or fate). Of course i could easily read too much into this, but some things just seem to click. Personal opinion, of course.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2006, 10:59:36 AM »
That may be so, but don't you think that Miura had addressed the topic for a more substantial reason? I doubt it was just a passing comment meant to show how mysterious the magic world in Berserk really is. Maybe he was just trying to connect the moonlight child to water for later reference. Who knows?

Like I said, that's just a lot more anecdotic than the main references Walter based his essay on. It's not unrelated, but it's not extremely substantial either for now. I'd place it on the same level than Walter's introduction about the metaphors. And there's really no reason to think the Moonlight Child has a specific connexion to water apart from the fact he appeared on the beach.

Could the presence or blessing of the elves amplify the inherent magic connected to the ocean? Perhaps.

That's quite a big "perhaps" here, considering that Elfhelm is magical in itself. It's remote and not found on any map, probably not accessible to normal humans either. A perfect haven basically, populated with benevolent astral beings. I don't know what you could want more.

And yes, there have to be many islands in the world of Berserk, but Guts and company have yet to venture to one. We can't necessarily say magic users don't favor islands.

Well, Roderick sure as hell didn't seem familiar with magic, and he's from an island. I think it's preposterous to assume that because we haven't seen any island yet they may all be full of magic users. The context in which the story takes place implies that there aren't a lot of magic users in the world since its practice decreased over time, Elfhelm being an exception for obvious reasons (see what I said above) and not totally unlike Flora's mansion basically. In any case it's very speculative at best (and not really the topic of the thread), so I wouldn't count on it too much before learning more about it in the manga.

Daiba: He's a caster, and he is also a naval leader. (Weak, I know, but not all of Ganishka's direct subordinates are magic users, e.g. Silat.)

That's because the Kushan empire is composed of clans. Most of them don't seem to know about Ganishka's true nature or even about his magic. The fact Daiba is a magic user and a naval commander doesn't mean much either. Flora was a very powerful witch and she lived in a forest. I think it's important not to start seeing correlations everywhere here, otherwise it'd just weaken the premise of the original idea. I think that's the reason Walter left the less pertinent elements unmentioned.

Ganishka: Probably one of the strongest magic users in the Berserk world, he uses a fog form often.

Uhh yeah, and your point is that fog is partly composed of water? I think that's pretty far-fetched man. It's exactly what I meant by anecdotic relations, in the same way than what I told trapped_soul about earlier. If we go down that road we can also say that Guts and Griffith having a water fight in volume 5 has a great significance because Griffith wore his beherit all that time, and it'd obviously be ridiculous.

Where Griffith's Beherit returned to him: a pond. Or whatever it was...

He found it in a lake. That's because it had traveled in a river from the castle's moat to arrive there. Still more of the same unlikely links though. Do you think the rain had a meaning when Guts fled the mercenary camp as a kid after having slain Gambino?

The red sea: Now this was actually made of blood, not water, but it did hold a strong prophetic connotation to the HICKs.

Actually that's the same lake Griffith found his beherit in, only after the Occultation. And it wasn't made of blood (would be a bit unrealistic), it's just that the corpses of the Hawks soldier tainted the waters and turned them red.

Water is undeniably an important part of the Berserk series in general, so I'm trying to determine how the idea can be used to specifically interpret the more cryptic elements of the series (like magic or fate). Of course i could easily read too much into this, but some things just seem to click.

I definitely think you are reading too much into it. Like I said earlier, while Schierke's comment about the ocean holds some interest and could fit in the general picture, the rest seems very shaky to me. Besides, magic isn't that cryptic to the reader, even though a lot of things have yet to be revealed, and in itself water has yet to be concretely linked to Causality in the manga (or to the prophetic notion of fate, if that's what you were referring to).

Offline Iscariot

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • The snack that smiles back!
Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2006, 12:21:33 PM »
Like I said, that's just a lot more anecdotic than the main references Walter based his essay on. It's not unrelated, but it's not extremely substantial either for now. And there's really no reason to think the Moonlight Child has a specific connexion to water apart from the fact he appeared on the beach.
In Guts' dream in the first volume, a giant image of the Demon Baby approached Guts in a constricted path of water. I could say this was a specific connection, but logically it isn't. It was just a nightmare induced by an incubus, right? The Demon Baby has also appeared on fire more than once. The point I'm trying to make is that Miura has set this up so that it could be taken too far, and that we really don't know which dots to connect yet. Even so, I enjoy finding the dots.

That's quite a big "perhaps" here, considering that Elfhelm is magical in itself. It's remote and not found on any map, probably not accessible to normal humans either. A perfect haven basically, populated with benevolent astral beings. I don't know what you could want more.
Yet that's all we know about the island. Why is it magical in itself? Just because it's where the elves call home? I personally think Skellig and its magic will be given a novel explanation, if Guts ever arrives there. Maybe there's no need, but I feel there are just too many questions for the answer to be so clean-cut. But I'm getting off topic...

Well, Roderick sure as hell didn't seem familiar with magic, and he's from an island. I think it's preposterous to assume that because we haven't seen any island yet they may all be full of magic users. The context in which the story takes place implies that there aren't a lot of magic users in the world since its practice decreased over time, Elfhelm being an exception for obvious reasons (see what I said above) and not totally unlike Flora's mansion basically. In any case it's very speculative at best (and not really the topic of the thread), so I wouldn't count on it too much before learning more about it in the manga.
I'll definitely give you that - Roderick doesn't seem familiar with magic at all. However, I wasn't trying to imply that all islands are the perfect home for magic users, or that islands are filled with them. I was trying to say that while surrounded by water, a magic user might be able to utilize stronger magic.

I think it's important not to start seeing correlations everywhere here, otherwise it'd just weaken the premise of the original idea. I think that's the reason Walter left the less pertinent elements unmentioned.
That's why I stated the following was on a speculative note. I find the topic fascinating, and even now I'm trying to find more of the "dots" to connect and draw a stronger picture. The picture, though, is obviously not definite. Kinda like water...

If we go down that road we can also say that Guts and Griffith having a water fight in volume 5 has a great significance because Griffith wore his beherit all that time, and it'd obviously be ridiculous.
Yes, but i was merely listing raw facts. Your logic compliments my little list well, but I really just wanted people to branch off of it. Maybe just for fun. :serpico:

He found it in a lake. That's because it had traveled in a river from the castle's moat to arrive there. Still more of the same unlikely links though. Do you think the rain had a meaning when Guts fled the mercenary camp as a kid after having slain Gambino?
That was a pretty shallow lake... The fact that the Beherit traveled by water strengthens the water/fate analogy, IMO, even if it can be considered anecdotal in essence. And no, I wouldn't count rain, as it has a very popular use in fictional situations such as that.

Schierke's comment about the ocean holds some interest and could fit in the general picture, the rest seems very shaky to me. Besides, magic isn't that cryptic to the reader, even though a lot of things have yet to be revealed, and in itself water has yet to be concretely linked to Causality in the manga (or to the prophetic notion of fate, if that's what you were referring to).
I disagree. Slan's "jumping fish" comment practically cemented the deal for me. Casuality flows with the will of the Idea, thus it flows with the overall negativity of humanity. SK might rebel against the current, but cannot change it. You obviously understand this, so I'm guessing you don't see a strong plot connection because it's relatively anecdotal. I, however, predict a further use of this analogy. If not verbally, indicatively.