Author Topic: The Underlying Vein  (Read 11352 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2006, 12:37:11 PM »
The point I'm trying to make is that Miura has set this up so that it could be taken too far, and that we really don't know which dots to connect yet.

I don't think he's purposedly created the story so you could look too far into things, no. Some elements are clearly related and some aren't.

Yet that's all we know about the island. Why is it magical in itself? Just because it's where the elves call home?

Yeah, it's most probably because it's Elfhelm. At least that's how it is for now. Just like Godot's cave had magical properties, or the tree in Misty Valley, etc. What's sure is that it's not magical just because it's an island.

I personally think Skellig and its magic will be given a novel explanation, if Guts ever arrives there. Maybe there's no need, but I feel there are just too many questions for the answer to be so clean-cut. But I'm getting off topic...

Skellig isn't magical, Elfhelm is. That's a significant nuance.

I'll definitely give you that - Roderick doesn't seem familiar with magic at all. However, I wasn't trying to imply that all islands are the perfect home for magic users, or that islands are filled with them. I was trying to say that while surrounded by water, a magic user might be able to utilize stronger magic.

Yeah well that's not anything new, the ocean is connected to the astral world. Now we have no reason to assume this changes anything if somebody lives on an island or near a shore so I don't think that proves any point. Any continent can be said to just be a giant island, what matters is to be close to the sea. And even so, there might be other ways to be close to the astral world.

That's why I stated the following was on a speculative note.

Well, it's not a big deal, but we're not in Speculation Nation...

Yes, but i was merely listing raw facts. Your logic compliments my little list well, but I really just wanted people to branch off of it.

Ok, I don't think that's the goal of this thread though. I mean, I can compile a huge list of unrelated elements and find fanciful connexions anytime but it doesn't serve any purpose, and in this case like I said to include them in the reasoning would just weaken the real, sure points.

That was a pretty shallow lake...

He was close to the shore, nothing unusual.

The fact that the Beherit traveled by water strengthens the water/fate analogy, IMO, even if it can be considered anecdotal in essence.

Yeah well, I don't think so. Really not. And nothing supports this at all. There's also no water/fate analogy, don't you mean causality?

I disagree. Slan's "jumping fish" comment practically cemented the deal for me. Casuality flows with the will of the Idea, thus it flows with the overall negativity of humanity. SK might rebel against the current, but cannot change it. You obviously understand this, so I'm guessing you don't see a strong plot connection because it's relatively anecdotal. I, however, predict a further use of this analogy. If not verbally, indicatively.

Yeah I obviously understand this since I explained it to half the Internet. There's just nothing concrete about it, it's an analogy. We haven't seen Causality really flowing like a river, unlike what we've seen of the beherits or the Abyss. In fact we haven't seen any concrete manifestation of Causality yet. And it doesn't fit the way the rest represents water, i.e. the fact beherits are drops of it. They're not drops of Causality, and that's certain. This is what I meant.

Offline Iscariot

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2006, 01:49:21 PM »
I don't think he's purposedly created the story so you could look too far into things, no. Some elements are clearly related and some aren't.
When it comes to overlapping themes, I give Miura a little more credit than that. Not much, but a little more.

Yeah, it's most probably because it's Elfhelm. At least that's how it is for now. Just like Godot's cave had magical properties, or the tree in Misty Valley, etc. What's sure is that it's not magical just because it's an island.
:guts: Never said it was magical because it was an island. Islands aren't magical because they're islands, I do know this. I'm just saying that the magical properties of Elfhelm could stem from something else, perhaps in conjunction with the elves' overall magical effect.

Skellig isn't magical, Elfhelm is. That's a significant nuance.
That is definitely the most practical perspective, but keep in mind we don't know the history of Skellig or Elfhelm. Is one there because of the other? This could fall into a chicken/egg paradox, as we just don't know.

Yeah well that's not anything new, the ocean is connected to the astral world. Now we have no reason to assume this changes anything if somebody lives on an island or near a shore so I don't think that proves any point. Any continent can be said to just be a giant island, what matters is to be close to the sea. And even so, there might be other ways to be close to the astral world.
I was trying to clarify my basis for the idea, sorry to be redundant.

Ok, I don't think that's the goal of this thread though. I mean, I can compile a huge list of unrelated elements and find fanciful connexions anytime but it doesn't serve any purpose, and in this case like I said to include them in the reasoning would just weaken the real, sure points.
I can understand that. My speculations weren't exactly meant to expand upon Walter's orignal post, but more to just get ideas flowing. Get it, flowing? ...Water? :troll:

Yeah well, I don't think so. Really not. And nothing supports this at all. There's also no water/fate analogy, don't you mean causality?
Yes, Casuality, my mistake. Perhaps the medium by which the Beherit returned to Griffith is inconsequential; I still think it's worth taking into consideration, if not just to remember it to compare with events that have yet to happen. I could make a thread in the Speculation Nation, but it's just been simplified to a deal of predictions.

Yeah I obviously understand this since I explained it to half the Internet. There's just nothing concrete about it, it's an analogy. We haven't seen Causality really flowing like a river, unlike what we've seen of the beherits or the Abyss. In fact we haven't seen any concrete manifestation of Causality yet. And it doesn't fit the way the rest represents water, i.e. the fact beherits are drops of it. They're not drops of Causality, and that's certain.
And yet the swells of the "ocean of feelings" created the Idea, the weaver of Casuality. Does that make the notorious helix a representation of casuality? I'd call these indications something between a metaphor and actuality. I guess we're stuck in strong disagreement on this topic, but I'm really arguing on behalf of the casuality/water analogy because I believe it could, in the end, be considered one of the pillars supporting the plot of Berserk. I think it would be fitting... Then again, some fans think it would be fitting if Guts trashed Griffith with the Dragon Slayer in the final episode.
Well I've gotta go. I have a cold, and I could really use some rest. I hope our conversation wasn't just a big annoyance to you... I tend to pick plots apart - probably a little too much. Also, everything I state isn't necessarily my personally held belief, I just really like getting ideas out there. I guess I would be more suited in the Speculation Nation. :puck:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2006, 02:42:52 PM »
When it comes to overlapping themes, I give Miura a little more credit than that. Not much, but a little more.

I don't see how that'd be giving Miura credit to assume that when he shows a river in a field it relates to the deep functioning of the Berserk world. On the contrary, that's ignoring his storytelling and the incredible wit he displays when showing and especially naming things. He uses special, complex words and usually makes it clear when things are to be viewed as an overlapping theme.

Never said it was magical because it was an island. Islands aren't magical because they're islands, I do know this.

Well then I think we agree and the argument can be put to rest. :guts:

I'm just saying that the magical properties of Elfhelm could stem from something else, perhaps in conjunction with the elves' overall magical effect.

For now I'd say that's unlikely. It's called Elfhelm for a reason, and it's magical because it's inhabited by elves and lies in the Interstice (like Flora's spirit tree). That's what is said in the manga, nothing more. The island itself may have something giving it magical powers on its own but so far nothing hints at this, so basing an argumentation on it in a Manga Mausoleum thread isn't so cool. Anyway, since we agree that it's not just a matter of being an island we have no reason to discuss this further, as that was the original point I wanted to make.

keep in mind we don't know the history of Skellig or Elfhelm. Is one there because of the other? This could fall into a chicken/egg paradox, as we just don't know.

Sure, we don't know much about it. Is that enough of a basis to include it in Walter's essay with the rest though? I don't think so.

Perhaps the medium by which the Beherit returned to Griffith is inconsequential; I still think it's worth taking into consideration, if not just to remember it to compare with events that have yet to happen. I could make a thread in the Speculation Nation, but it's just been simplified to a deal of predictions.

Indeed, I don't think the means by which the beherit got to Griffith matters. The Count's beherit came back to him through different means and it doesn't signify anything in particular. Besides like Walter said the water that matters is primordial water, from which the Idea of Evil was born, not just water from any river.

And yet the swells of the "ocean of feelings" created the Idea, the weaver of Casuality. Does that make the notorious helix a representation of casuality?

I don't think it does? I'd rather see it connected to the Vortex of Souls personally, but that's just a baseless guess. It may not need a representation at all anyway, it could be insubstantial. Otherwise it would mean people could come into contact with it, which is a tricky idea.

I'd call these indications something between a metaphor and actuality.

Considering the fact SK and Slan both used similar but different metaphors with different interpretations and that aren't compatible I'd say it's "just" a metaphor. It represents something real obviously (and very well at that IMHO), but not literally. Like, SK isn't a fish.

I guess we're stuck in strong disagreement on this topic, but I'm really arguing on behalf of the casuality/water analogy because I believe it could, in the end, be considered one of the pillars supporting the plot of Berserk.

Well, I don't want to just pick on what you're saying, but Causality can be a pillar of the story without being directly related to the primordial water we're talking about. It's already related to the Idea of Evil and all the rest, and I'll be fine if it stays an immaterial element. It's been compared to water through these analogies but isn't concretely related to primordial water, for now that's a fact and I don't think it's much of a problem. It's just anecdotic, and if it becomes concretely linked to the rest later on I'll be the first happy, it's just not the case right now.

I hope our conversation wasn't just a big annoyance to you... I tend to pick plots apart - probably a little too much. Also, everything I state isn't necessarily my personally held belief, I just really like getting ideas out there. I guess I would be more suited in the Speculation Nation. :puck:

No, I wasn't annoyed, don't worry. It's never a problem to challenge commonly accepted ideas as long as you can reasonably back up what you're saying. Although as you said it'd be more at its place in Speculation Nation.

:guts:

Offline Skeleton

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2006, 03:36:16 PM »
Well yeah, that's not exactly breaking news, although I think it might have been interesting for you to cite what cultures you're talking about and give some details about them. However, I don't think that explains anything in particular regarding the precise use of water related terms in Berserk, especially given the context in which they're used. It just shows that there's a historical background for the concept of water being central to the world, which in itself isn't of much help for us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water#The_impact_of_water_on_religion_and_philosophy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_%28classical_element%29 are two brief examples of water in spirituality and religion... Just for kicks and giggles, if anyone's interested.  My first point was more to just reinforce the fact as to why the deeper thought/spirituality of Berserk is water related as opposed to adding anything new to Walter's original post.

About these definitions you're quoting, I think you need to remember that the words are originally in Japanese. So basing yourself on the specifics of English definitions for these words may not be too pertinent.

That's true.  I'm ignorant of whether or not the Japanese word itself is referring to the Primordial Sea at the beginning of life's history or just to primordial water.  Know what I'm saying?  Addressing the Primordial Sea as opposed to just primordial water makes all the difference.  I decided to err on the side of caution (primordial water) since that's the term Walter used in the original post.  The definitions were simply a "reminder" that primordial doesn't necessarily refer to the Primordial Sea (but it might in Japanese of which I'm ignorant).

Plus a minor remark: it's causality, not casualty.

Thank you, my friend.  I had actually sat there for a few minutes, typing between the two over and over... Of course, I just had to choose the wrong one.  :serpico:

(On a side note: I sincerely apologize for the way I quoted in this post.  I am very new to online forums and thus don't quite get how to quote yet.  :puck:)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2006, 04:27:53 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water#The_impact_of_water_on_religion_and_philosophy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_%28classical_element%29 are two brief examples of water in spirituality and religion... Just for kicks and giggles, if anyone's interested.  My first point was more to just reinforce the fact as to why the deeper thought/spirituality of Berserk is water related as opposed to adding anything new to Walter's original post.

I see, but what I meant myself was that while the deeper functioning of the Berserk world is related to water and that real world religions or others can be related to water too, it doesn't necessarily mean they're linked or that one makes sense in regard to the other (or explains it). Water brings life and is an essential element to the survival of humans, so it's logical that it appears as an icon in almost every culture. Taking an example from what you've posted, the fact water is used as a purified in a lot of religions or that certain of them immerge corpses in water during funerals doesn't relate at all to the concept of primordial sea and droplets opening dimensional doors we can find in Berserk. It's really a completely superficial relation. Then there's the fact water is one of the elements composing the world in Berserk and that some religions/cultures have/had the same belief, but it again doesn't directly relate to the primordial sea in question here, just to the elementals.

I'm ignorant of whether or not the Japanese word itself is referring to the Primordial Sea at the beginning of life's history or just to primordial water.  Know what I'm saying?  Addressing the Primordial Sea as opposed to just primordial water makes all the difference.

Both are used, but it's referring to the primordial sea (there are other connotations though). I don't think both meanings differ greatly however, nor that it would change all that much in the context anyway.

Thank you, my friend.  I had actually sat there for a few minutes, typing between the two over and over... Of course, I just had to choose the wrong one.

Hehe no problem, I know it's sometimes hard to remember for native English speakers. To help you remember it, think that it's relates to the notion of cause and effect.

(On a side note: I sincerely apologize for the way I quoted in this post.  I am very new to online forums and thus don't quite get how to quote yet.)

That's Ok, it's not hard at all though. Pay attention to the small icons on top of the window when typing a post, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding the quote one. It looks like this: .

This will enclose text in-between "quote" markups. Remove the dots and it'll work. [.quote] text [./quote]

Offline Iscariot

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2006, 04:32:34 AM »
I don't see how that'd be giving Miura credit to assume that when he shows a river in a field it relates to the deep functioning of the Berserk world. On the contrary, that's ignoring his storytelling and the incredible wit he displays when showing and especially naming things. He uses special, complex words and usually makes it clear when things are to be viewed as an overlapping theme.
I had said "just a little." Like, an island or a river being magical just because they're an island or a river? No. But I will take analogies pretty far.

Sure, we don't know much about it. Is that enough of a basis to include it in Walter's essay with the rest though? I don't think so.
I was trying to kill that topic I brought up... I guess I just brought more attention to it.

Besides like Walter said the water that matters is primordial water, from which the Idea of Evil was born, not just water from any river.
Maybe I'm appearing to grasp at straws because it's pretty hard to link primordial water in with anything... This reminds me of Slan's nickname. :troll:

I don't think it does? I'd rather see it connected to the Vortex of Souls personally, but that's just a baseless guess. It may not need a representation at all anyway, it could be insubstantial. Otherwise it would mean people could come into contact with it, which is a tricky idea.
It is a very tricky idea, but intriguing all the same.

Like, SK isn't a fish.
Damn it all!

Well, I don't want to just pick on what you're saying, but Causality can be a pillar of the story without being directly related to the primordial water we're talking about. It's already related to the Idea of Evil and all the rest, and I'll be fine if it stays an immaterial element. It's been compared to water through these analogies but isn't concretely related to primordial water, for now that's a fact and I don't think it's much of a problem. It's just anecdotic, and if it becomes concretely linked to the rest later on I'll be the first happy, it's just not the case right now.
Yes but, like how you posted in The Moonlight Child thread about SK's reflection analogy, I'm just looking for connections between Miura's myriad themes. You may find my claimed connections absurd... Hell, I do often. But absurd is good, as is gets people thinking. I'm also liking this troll icon more and more.

No, I wasn't annoyed, don't worry. It's never a problem to challenge commonly accepted ideas as long as you can reasonably back up what you're saying. Although as you said it'd be more at its place in Speculation Nation.
Off I go to look for a good Beherit speculation page. They show such negative emotions while active... More proof they're linked from the "ocean of feelings", like the Idea. I'd like to see the Idea's eyes crying some time, though...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2006, 05:29:01 AM »
I had said "just a little."

Well, that was wrong like I said.

Maybe I'm appearing to grasp at straws because it's pretty hard to link primordial water in with anything...

Yeah, maybe that's why. So how about you stop trying? That sounds like a good idea to me.

This reminds me of Slan's nickname.

Because it can actually be related, albeit superficially, based on the structure of the Japanese terms used by SK and their complex meaning, as well as Slan's relation to the Abyss?

Yes but, like how you posted in The Moonlight Child thread about SK's reflection analogy, I'm just looking for connections between Miura's myriad themes.

That's not the same thing. First, I specified that it wasn't anything concrete. Which is what I've been telling you here too all along, so that kills your point. Second, that analogy took place during the events leading to Griffith's incarnation, so it's related to what I was answering to through that. Third, I was talking about the first Eclipse, the fact that the moon obscured the sun, and SK's analogy of the Incarnation ceremony that mirrored it. It's not a coincidence SK used that precise analogy for it, and it's made clear through the terms used in both occasions to describe the events, as well as the art itself (as Griffith showed you).

Anyway, you're ignoring what I've been telling you in this thread and are just trying to justify your way of reasoning here, but it's not going anywhere. See below.

You may find my claimed connections absurd... Hell, I do often. But absurd is good, as is gets people thinking.

Absurb isn't good when it wastes people's time though. Especially when it's random, obvious and yet irrelevant. Absurb connections have no quality in themselves, and the excuse of getting people to think is invalid here as this isn't a thread meant for speculation (as I've been telling you).

Off I go to look for a good Beherit speculation page. They show such negative emotions while active... More proof they're linked from the "ocean of feelings", like the Idea.

That's not really a proof, they show emotions that echo those of their "owner" at the time. We already know they're linked to the Abyss anyway, and this thread is actually about that link, so I'm not sure why you'd want to "speculate" on it. Everybody knows this already, and it's relatively obvious. But feel free to post your thoughts about it in an appropriate thread anyway, I just want to make sure you're aware it's nothing new.

Offline Iscariot

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2006, 06:12:47 AM »
Yeah, maybe that's why. So how about you stop trying? That sounds like a good idea to me.
Heh, yes, I'm done standing up for my second post's speculations, as they were just that, speculations.

Because it can actually be related, albeit superficially, based on the structure of the Japanese terms used by SK and their complex meaning, as well as Slan's relation to the Abyss?
Yes, but it's already been debated ad nauseum, thus the trolly icon.

That's not the same thing. First, I specified that it wasn't anything concrete. Which is what I've been telling you here too all along, so that kills your point. Second, that analogy took place during the events leading to Griffith's incarnation, so it's related to what I was answering to through that. Third, I was talking about the first Eclipse, the fact that the moon obscured the sun, and SK's analogy of the Incarnation ceremony that mirrored it. It's not a coincidence SK used that precise analogy for it, and it's made clear through the terms used in both occasions to describe the events, as well as the art itself (as Griffith showed you).
I did not mean to sound as if I was bringing up concrete facts when I made my little list a while ago, and I apologize if I came off that way.

Anyway, you're ignoring what I've been telling you in this thread and are just trying to justify your way of reasoning here, but it's not going anywhere.
Oh I do see, from the past few posts of ours, that my reasoning behind my past ideas led nowhere.

Absurb isn't good when it wastes people's time though. Especially when it's random, obvious and yet irrelevant. Absurb connections have no quality in themselves, and the excuse of getting people to think is invalid here as this isn't a thread meant for speculation (as I've been telling you).
I know, this isn't the Speculation Nation. That's why I'm done talking over my past speculations regarding water and its anecdotal uses. Though I do hope further points concerning the thread directly are brought up soon, as I still find the topic interesting.

That's not really a proof, they show emotions that echo those of their "owner" at the time. We already know they're linked to the Abyss anyway, and this thread is actually about that link, so I'm not sure why you'd want to "speculate" on it. Everybody knows this already, and it's relatively obvious. But feel free to post your thoughts about it in an appropriate thread anyway, I just want to make sure you're aware it's nothing new.
I know its an old topic, but post my thoughts I shall: I disagree somewhat with your statement involving the emotional connection between Beherit and owner, though I only have one actual point against it. Consider the scene after Guts' fight with Slan in Qliphoth. After SK "unshealthed" the Yobimizu no Tsurugi, Guts looked amazed, yet his Beherit looked very fearful. Could this prove that the Beherits can have personal emotions? I'm of the opinion that the fear expressed was meant to indicate what the Yobimizu no Tsurugi brings to the table, yet that negative emotion is rare when compared to others expressed before and not exactly parallel with Guts. Sorry to go off topic again, but you said feel free.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2006, 06:28:57 AM »
I know, this isn't the Speculation Nation. That's why I'm done talking over my past speculations regarding water and its anecdotal uses.

Ok, good.

I know its an old topic, but post my thoughts I shall: I disagree somewhat with your statement involving the emotional connection between Beherit and owner

Well, it's stated that beherits are activated by their user's extreme feelings in the manga, among other things. I didn't mean for you to post your beherit speculation in this particular thread, though...

Consider the scene after Guts' fight with Slan in Qliphoth. After SK "unshealthed" the Yobimizu no Tsurugi, Guts looked amazed, yet his Beherit looked very fearful. Could this prove that the Beherits can have personal emotions?

Ok, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. I was talking about beherits being activated, fully, opening a "portal" to another part of the world. Beherits are sentient, it's nothing new. We can see them (especially Guts') react to various stuff in the manga, look at people, etc. That's clear, they're not just inanimate stones.

Now about the beherit's reaction when SK used his Yobimizu no Tsurugi. I don't think that was necessarily fear. The beherit looks disturbed, frowning, as if something was perturbing it in its sleep, in the same way it was when Slan appeared (a bit less than when she did actually) or during Griffith's incarnation.

Offline Iscariot

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2006, 06:46:35 AM »
I didn't mean for you to post your beherit speculation in this particular thread, though...
Oh, well I'm done with this too then, just give me a few extra lines to answer you...

Ok, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. I was talking about beherits being activated, fully, opening a "portal" to another part of the world. Beherits are sentient, it's nothing new. We can see them (especially Guts') react to various stuff in the manga, look at people, etc. That's clear, they're not just inanimate stones.
Yes, they're undoubtedly sentient, but when I said personal emotion I was wondering if the emotions could actually be called their own. It could also be supposed that their will is not their own, but the Ideas, as he weaves Causality and most likely controls them itself. My conjecture, atleast.

Now about the beherit's reaction when SK used his Yobimizu no Tsurugi. I don't think that was necessarily fear. The beherit looks disturbed, frowning, as if something was perturbing it in its sleep, in the same way it was when Slan appeared (a bit less than when she did actually) or during Griffith's incarnation.
Just thought I'd bring up that strange occurance of a Beherit's self-concern, as the topic was brought up. Was I the one who brought Beherit's up originally...? I'm done now, though.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Underlying Vein
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2006, 07:06:18 AM »
Yes, they're undoubtedly sentient, but when I said personal emotion I was wondering if the emotions could actually be called their own.

It's clearly the case as far as I can tell. But like I said, in itself it's not really a proof that they're linked to the Abyss, or then it's very indirect compared to all the much clearer examples we have (especially in volume 13).