Author Topic: Episode 276  (Read 45690 times)

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Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #125 on: June 24, 2006, 03:07:24 AM »
Now that's just plain wierd Griff.  Wierd is good though  :carcus:

Though a more demonic form in the vein of European descriptions would be a welcome treat.

Offline coolerimmortal

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #126 on: June 24, 2006, 05:20:19 AM »
THX for the episode Aaz and mystery japanese hero!!!

do u think that zodd will turn into his human(ish) form and Guts and co. save zodd....? just a thought... what a crew that would be...the apostle, the witch and the berserker armor....hehe... :guts:

That would be...interesting. It won't happen, though. Zodd is a devoted follower of Griffith. I doubt if he would abandon him just because he was set on fire...


Let's concentrate on the episode anyway. Hasn't anybody got some original guess about what could ensue in 277?

I can't specify for 277, but after reading 276...I'm almost certain that Ganishka is going to die very soon. I can't see Griffith actually letting Zodd die...the idea of "using Zodd to drain Ganishka" sounds pretty realistic at this point. I think that more of Griffith's troops will show up soon, and the assault on Ganishka will continue. Zodd won't die. Then, Griffith will show up, and we'll get to see exactly what his "reborn" (human?) form can do. He'll kill Ganishka as Guts and co escape.

Ganishka's spent. Griffith has taken back Charlotte, Daiba was disgraced, and it looks like Ganishka's seriously low on troops. I do not know if he has more lurking elsewhere, but it sounded to me like this invasion force was pretty significant. Now that they are dead, I believe Ganishka is in trouble. He has himself left, but now that Griffith has sent his forces against him...

What I'm trying to say it that, I believe Ganishka as a character has almost outlived his usefulness. More could have been done with him, but unless he flees, I think he'll go out in a blaze of glory in the next ten EPISODES.

This is pure speculation, however, and I suspect my "Ganishka has almost outlived his usefulness" comment will not meet with much agreement.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #127 on: June 24, 2006, 05:34:45 AM »
I can't specify for 277, but after reading 276...I'm almost certain that Ganishka is going to die very soon... What I'm trying to say it that, I believe Ganishka as a character has almost outlived his usefulness. More could have been done with him, but unless he flees, I think he'll go out in a blaze of glory in the next ten EPISODES...
Like many have done in the past, I think you're underestimating Ganishka's power, foresight and his role in the story (and maybe a little overanxious for this Arc to end?).  If Ganishka's on the verge of defeat, I have a strong feeling he'd make a tactical retreat.  And if he does, we should be thankful.  There's still a lot of room for development with him, and for such an intriguing build-up to this moment, I really doubt Miura would just kill him off so easily. 

Hell, Griffith and Ganishka haven't even met face to face yet.  Instead of an anticlimactic assassination here on the pier, wouldn't it be awesome if we got to see a full scale Apostle invasion of Wyndham, with Ganishka's EL DIABLO form guarding his throne by mounting the highest tower in the capital like King Kong?!  And that's just one possibility  :guts: .

Quote
I suspect my "Ganishka has almost outlived his usefulness" comment will not meet with much agreement.
Well, I do personally disagree, but why guard your conviction like this? Believe in it, man!  :griff:  It's anyone's game at this point.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline coolerimmortal

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #128 on: June 24, 2006, 05:45:17 AM »
Like many have done in the past, I think you're underestimating Ganishka's power, foresight and his role in the story (and maybe a little overanxious for this Arc to end?).  If Ganishka's on the verge of defeat, I have a strong feeling he'd make a tactical retreat.  And if he does, we should be thankful.  There's still a lot of room for development with him, and for such an intriguing build-up to this moment, I really doubt Miura would just kill him off so easily. 

Hell, Griffith and Ganishka haven't even met face to face yet.  Instead of an anticlimactic assassination here on the pier, wouldn't it be awesome if we got to see a full scale Apostle invasion of Wyndham, with Ganishka's EL DIABLO form guarding his throne by mounting the highest tower in the capital like King Kong?!  And that's just one possibility  :guts: .

Heh...

Well, what I'm saying is, Griffith shows up in a few EPISODES and we get Griffith versus Ganishka. We get our grand battle, and it's not an assassination.

I admit, Ganishka making a tactical retreat would make a lot of sense, but I suspect that Griffith will at least show up, even if he doesn't finish off Ganishka.

I like your scenario, it would be pretty damn cool. Still, this whole situation just gives me a sense of "Ganishka's doomed".

Offline prawnstyle

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #129 on: June 24, 2006, 07:19:23 AM »
hmmm,  do we know that this isnt GANISHKA's apostle form?  Where does it say it is not?  Though I suppose all apostles have a solid physical form perhaps,  though its not as if the size transfer to apostle form makes logical sense anyway.

Anyway, I suspected it might be some sort of hindu monster,  something with a big mouth...gah,  though he is big and fat which you dont see to much in hindu deities.  Smething with lost of teeth and spikes is the best bet though.

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Offline Record Low

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #130 on: June 24, 2006, 08:01:39 AM »
Anyway, I suspected it might be some sort of hindu monster,  something with a big mouth...gah,  though he is big and fat which you dont see to much in hindu deities.  Smething with lost of teeth and spikes is the best bet though.
on the next episode....(dbz style) ganishka goes super saijin 3!!! and transforms with the moonlight's power and his baboon tale (just adding on to a joke)



I'm done.

hmmm,  do we know that this isnt GANISHKA's apostle form?  Where does it say it is not?  Though I suppose all apostles have a solid physical form perhaps,  though its not as if the size transfer to apostle form makes logical sense anyway.

I remember seeing ganishka in his human(ish) form when trying to 'fondle' with princess charlotte.

To think Ganishka would fight a battle himself just to take over a capital city with many high officer personel present.
Although i personally think it is unwise for the general to attack head on with the remaining forces(even if he is stronger).... maybe its not the real ganishka? could it be some magic?

like farnese's father said... an 'illusion'?

or maybe i am completely off...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 08:08:32 AM by Record Low »
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Offline vlad

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #131 on: June 24, 2006, 12:21:53 PM »
Quote
To think Ganishka would fight a battle himself just to take over a capital city with many high officer personel present.
Although i personally think it is unwise for the general to attack head on with the remaining forces(even if he is stronger).... maybe its not the real ganishka? could it be some magic?
Well, I'm not sure he actually meant to be so much involved. Guts' actions sort of forced his hand, and than the fliers appeared so he had to react to that as well (even using his "power" attack).
As far as the fog form goes, IMHO it is magic, the only thing is how it is summoned (there are some speculation to this in a few threads).
Something puzzles me though. If we assume that Ganishka's presence was brought upon by Guts and than take into account Griffith swift reaction (the flying apostles) it could be possible that Griffith is keeping tabs on Guts & Co.:isidro: On the other hand it could also mean that he just saw the enormous fog form and sent them in then. Bah I'd prefer it to be the first option, but it could be just wishfull thinking.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #132 on: June 24, 2006, 12:26:22 PM »
I'm almost certain that Ganishka is going to die very soon. I can't see Griffith actually letting Zodd die...

Well, it's not like it's either Zodd or Ganishka. I think both will survive this encounter. Ganishka could very well be defeated without dying.

Ganishka's spent. Griffith has taken back Charlotte, Daiba was disgraced, and it looks like Ganishka's seriously low on troops. I do not know if he has more lurking elsewhere, but it sounded to me like this invasion force was pretty significant.

Don't be too quick in judging the situation here. Griffith stole Charlotte away, Ok. That was merely an advantage that Ganishka wasn't even completely aware of for long, but it's still a defeat, although the Hawks had to trick him to do it (meaning they wanted to avoid a real confrontation). Now where are we currently? In Vritannis, the city the Holy See alliance has assembled its armies in. It's not the Kushans that are being assaulted but the other way around. If they lose, their plan to kill off their opponents all at once will have failed, but that will be it.

Now about the state of his troops. Daiba was beaten, yes. Guts & co's intervention wasn't planned. However, is it a critical blow to the empire? I don't think so. The real bummer for Ganishka is the loss of the Kundalini, but even so I'm sure he has more tricks like that in stock. Then there's the numerical losses. I'm not sure the invasion force was all that significant beyond this sole battle if Guts' group managed to thwart it like they did. The Makara are probably a big loss, but a few hundreds Daka and 6 dozens of tigers? That's not even a thousand soldiers, and Ganishka's empire has apparently many many armies. Midland still isn't free, and who knows how much more resources Ganishka has? The way I see it, if this attack ultimately fails and Griffith rallies the Holy See alliance under his banner, the final battle could be huge and would oppose thousands and thousands of troops. It could easily be something like 20,000 Kushans against 20,000 others.

What I'm trying to say it that, I believe Ganishka as a character has almost outlived his usefulness.

By saying that you imply that you know what will happen next and how the story will evolve, since you know what will be useful or not in the future. I think it's imprudent of you. :SK:

I admit, Ganishka making a tactical retreat would make a lot of sense, but I suspect that Griffith will at least show up, even if he doesn't finish off Ganishka.

There's no doubt that Griffith will appear so that's not saying much. Whether he'll take part in the battle is a whole different question altogether. As for killing Ganishka off himself, it's not impossible but I'm not sure it's the right time to reveal his powers. Said powers may not allow him to instantly kill Ganishka either.

Still, this whole situation just gives me a sense of "Ganishka's doomed".

Yeah, he just killed 20 apostles and sent Zodd crashing into the sea without taking any damage himself, he's doomed!

do we know that this isnt GANISHKA's apostle form?  Where does it say it is not?

It's not explicitly stated anywhere, it's just a guess on our part based on what we know of him (he's a sorcerer and this fog form of his is magic in a way or another).

I suspected it might be some sort of hindu monster,  something with a big mouth [...] Smething with lost of teeth and spikes is the best bet though.

Yeah, I could see it being like that.

To think Ganishka would fight a battle himself just to take over a capital city with many high officer personel present.

What do you mean by capital? Vritannis isn't the capital of anything, although it's an important city. Also, by destroying Vritannis and the armies massed there Ganishka would deal a fatal blow to his enemies.

maybe its not the real ganishka? could it be some magic? like farnese's father said... an 'illusion'?

It's magic obviously, but I don't see how it could not be Ganishka... That doesn't mean he is physically there though.

Which reminds me of some idea I had a while ago. Remember Rakshas' infiltration in Wyndham? Although this is pure speculation, if Ganishka's really just projecting himself through the fog in Vritannis but stayed over there physically, he could be forced to abandon his supervision of the Vritannis battle if someone were to come for his head where it actually is. To cool not to mention, even if unlikely. :SK:

On the other hand it could also mean that he just saw the enormous fog form and sent them in then.

Yeah, it would have been normal for Griffith to assume that Ganishka would be there, and he knew what to expect thanks to the raid in Wyndham. Sending in the flying apostles along with Zodd could have been planned for whenever he would appear. Besides, don't forget that he has Sonia on his side, he doesn't need to keep tabs on anybody since she can foresee the future.

Offline fuxberg

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #133 on: June 24, 2006, 12:50:38 PM »
Quote from: Aazealh
It's magic obviously, but I don't see how it could not be Ganishka... That doesn't mean he is physically there though.

Which reminds me of some idea I had a while ago. Remember Rakshas' infiltration in Wyndham? Although this is pure speculation, if Ganishka's really just projecting himself through the fog in Vritannis but stayed over there physically, he could be forced to abandon his supervision of the Vritannis battle if someone were to come for his head where it actually is. To cool not to mention, even if unlikely. :SK:

Yes, that is very interesting.. And reminds me of me something.. Rakshas as shown Silat a lot about his Emperor (Demon breeding and such), dont you think that Silat or Rakshas might try an assassination? Because as you said, Aazealh, Griffith has Sonja, dont you think he could have "predicted" that?
And sent the Apostles to "their deaths" just to distract Ganishka while Silat/Rakshas kill him in Windham?  I say this because Griffith used to do this kind of things with Guts while in the Band of the Hawk.. In battle Guts's "bloodlust" made him forget his orders, but Griffith always made the battle plans with that in consideration..
But yes it'd be cool to see Ganishka fade away in the midst of battle  :badbone:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #134 on: June 24, 2006, 12:55:04 PM »
Rakshas as shown Silat a lot about his Emperor (Demon breeding and such), dont you think that Silat or Rakshas might try an assassination? Because as you said, Aazealh, Griffith has Sonja, dont you think he could have "predicted" that?

If Rakshas were to try to assassinate Ganishka, it wouldn't be without Griffith's authorization IMO. And I don't think Silat would help him. Rakshas was banned from the Bakiraka and I doubt they intend to welcome him back.

And sent the Apostles to "their deaths" just to distract Ganishka while Silat/Rakshas kill him in Windham?

It's possible of course, but like I said above I don't think it's very likely.

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2006, 08:31:40 PM »
If Ganishka's fog form isn't his apostle form, then I'd be willing to bet that, as an apostle he is completely and utterly underwhelming. It would explain the Kushan's heavy reliance on magic.

I'm still not convinced that the fog isn't his apostle form though.

Also, I think Daiba's survival is proof enough that Ganishka will not be dying. Retreating perhaps, but definately not dying. There is no reason for him to survive if Miura is killing off his master. Therefore Ganishka's survival is pretty much garunteed.

Offline Record Low

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #136 on: June 24, 2006, 09:05:00 PM »
What do you mean by capital? Vritannis isn't the capital of anything, although it's an important city. Also, by destroying Vritannis and the armies massed there Ganishka would deal a fatal blow to his enemies.

By capital I mean through power not national capital... I meant Important key city. Although if Ganishka thinks he could eliminate the huge forces of the holy see alliance I'm sure he has more stuff up his sleeve...I dont think he would send in every thing at once...But I guess we're gonna have to wait and see.

It's magic obviously, but I don't see how it could not be Ganishka... That doesn't mean he is physically there though.

Which reminds me of some idea I had a while ago. Remember Rakshas' infiltration in Wyndham? Although this is pure speculation, if Ganishka's really just projecting himself through the fog in Vritannis but stayed over there physically, he could be forced to abandon his supervision of the Vritannis battle if someone were to come for his head where it actually is. To cool not to mention, even if unlikely.  :SK:
thats what I am thinking...hmm... :schierke:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #137 on: June 24, 2006, 09:17:59 PM »
If Ganishka's fog form isn't his apostle form, then I'd be willing to bet that, as an apostle he is completely and utterly underwhelming. It would explain the Kushan's heavy reliance on magic.

I don't see how it would explain anything at all. As an apostle, even if he were very strong Ganishka wouldn't be a match against hundreds, possible thousands of other monsters like him (including the 5 big shots of the Hawks). And his magic allows him to boost his armies in ways being a standard apostle can't (all the familiars, his use of creatures like the Kundalini, etc). I think the both are complementary, and no matter how strong he individually is, any apostle would benefit from magic (especially if he uses it to create legions of monsters). Not to mention the lightning and all that, plus some hypothetic other powers. I can't really follow your reasoning on this, though I understand why you'd think that.

Anyway, assuming his apostle form differs from the fog form, I imagine him being at least reasonably strong, but not above the Hawks' generals (Zodd, Grunberd, Locus, Irvine, Rakshas). Of course we currently have no way to know anything for sure about this.

I'm still not convinced that the fog isn't his apostle form though.

Well no one can truly be sure until it's confirmed. :void:

Also, I think Daiba's survival is proof enough that Ganishka will not be dying. Retreating perhaps, but definately not dying. There is no reason for him to survive if Miura is killing off his master. Therefore Ganishka's survival is pretty much garunteed.

Well, that makes sense from a storytelling point of view but it's not really a proof in itself. They could both die soon, like Daiba in 277 and Ganishka in 279. I don't believe it will happen but it's still a possibility, you see what I mean?

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2006, 01:45:18 AM »
You know, I'm not sure if I can articulate why I think that if Ganishka's apostle form weren't related to the fog, that his interest in magic would have to stem from some glaring weakness stemming from his apostle form.

Regardless of my inability to explain, as well as the availability of alternate explainations, it's still a hunch I wouldn't be able to shake.

Either way, if it turns out i'm wrong, it's not something that that I'll have trouble accepting once I see it, it's just I'll have to see it first.

As far as WHY I can't see why the fog as anything besides Ganishka himself is because I can't see why he would he stop there? Why not flame, the sea, and light itself. You would think if Ganishka would be able to manipulate them all in the exact same way he manipulates fog; without requiring some sort familar being present within the manifested 'body'. He wouldn't have had to use the snake familar within Kundalini (which made that familar extremely vunerable when compared to the fog). yes, I know it was Daiba that summoned it, but if Ganishka could do it, why not allow Daiba as well, infact why have subordinate magic users at all?

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2006, 01:57:34 AM »
You know, I'm not sure if I can articulate why I think that if Ganishka's apostle form weren't related to the fog, that his interest in magic would have to stem from some glaring weakness stemming from his apostle form.

interesting point, wereallymad.  I could definitely see a complete lack of ability in his apostle form as a driving force behind his interest in magic.  Perhaps it could also explain his disloyalty to the coming of a god hand, besides the obvious reluctance to give up power.

But even if that were the case it be argued that the first thing he would do with magic would be to augment his apostle form.
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Offline Black_Devil

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2006, 02:02:24 AM »
You know, I'm not sure if I can articulate why I think that if Ganishka's apostle form weren't related to the fog, that his interest in magic would have to stem from some glaring weakness stemming from his apostle form.

Regardless of my inability to explain, as well as the availability of alternate explainations, it's still a hunch I wouldn't be able to shake.

Either way, if it turns out i'm wrong, it's not something that that I'll have trouble accepting once I see it, it's just I'll have to see it first.

As far as WHY I can't see why the fog as anything besides Ganishka himself is because I can't see why he would he stop there? Why not flame, the sea, and light itself. You would think if Ganishka would be able to manipulate them all in the exact same way he manipulates fog; without requiring some sort familar being present within the manifested 'body'. He wouldn't have had to use the snake familar within Kundalini (which made that familar extremely vunerable when compared to the fog). yes, I know it was Daiba that summoned it, but if Ganishka could do it, why not allow Daiba as well, infact why have subordinate magic users at all?


Here's the thing, even if there wasn't a glaring weakness in his apostle form, MAGIC is what puts him well above any of the other apostles. Magic is something Griffith doesn't have and is fearful of. Magic is what allowed him to fry all those flying apostles like a shooting gallery. With Magic, he's able to take on the hawks army like this, irregardless of his apostle form's strength

Offline HawaiianStallion

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2006, 02:07:13 AM »
Doesnt seem its been mentioned by who says its not possible that he could use his magic in his apostle form, and not only that, it might stronger due to the gifts and better abilities of the apostle forms?

Offline Black_Devil

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2006, 02:11:43 AM »
Doesnt seem its been mentioned by who says its not possible that he could use his magic in his apostle form, and not only that, it might stronger due to the gifts and better abilities of the apostle forms?

page 2 my friend ;D. We simply don't know enough on his magical abilities to make that call, and we also haven't even seen his apostle form so it's really hard to make a call.

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2006, 02:21:36 AM »

Here's the thing, even if there wasn't a glaring weakness in his apostle form, MAGIC is what puts him well above any of the other apostles. Magic is something Griffith doesn't have and is fearful of. Magic is what allowed him to fry all those flying apostles like a shooting gallery. With Magic, he's able to take on the hawks army like this, irregardless of his apostle form's strength

That is assuming that the lightening is magic rather than an apostle ability.

Also, I know my grammer and spelling suck ass, so I should be the last person to go grammer nazi, but irregardless isn't a word. It's a combination of irrespective and regardless.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2006, 02:51:07 AM »
It's not an apostle ability, several people have pointed out Ganishka's magic prowess, and each and every apostle has a tangible, fleshy form, as most of the apostle transformation is a physical change.
While I personally don't think his fog form is his Apostle form, your "proof" is based on the fact that his Apostle form will follow the same pattern as other Apostles... but, as a character, does he really fall in with the other Apostles (the answer is no)?  In the end, we aren't going to know for sure until later, so stop insisting you're right.
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Offline Black_Devil

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #145 on: June 25, 2006, 02:59:02 AM »
While I personally don't think his fog form is his Apostle form, your "proof" is based on the fact that Ganishka's Apostle form will follow the same pattern as other apostles... but, as a character, does he really falls in with the other Apostles? (the answer is no).  In the end, we won't know until later, so stop insisting you're right.
You're right(see.) that we don't know enough about him, but it's still a logical assumption that his apostle form is able to be touched. His real defining factor right now is his use of magic, no idea of whats to come though.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #146 on: June 25, 2006, 03:09:36 AM »
His real defining factor right now is his use of magic, no idea of whats to come though.
Isn't his "real defining factor" rather that he opposes Griffith, placing himself in direct conflict with all other Apostles?  His magic abilities are just the icing on the cake of his uniqueness.

I don't believe it's been discussed before, and there's certainly no better time than now... We know Ganishka is a magic user, but where does Ganishka derive his powers from?  Obviously he's using fog as a medium to gather/store/transmit lightning, but is he using a creature like Kundalini to ground his control over the elements? Check out how fast he transmogrifies himself from human into fog back in Wyndham. It's definitely a unique use of magic...

Though, the answer may simply just be "it's magic."  :judo:
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Offline Black_Devil

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #147 on: June 25, 2006, 03:13:50 AM »
Isn't his "real defining factor" rather that he opposes Griffith, placing himself in direct conflict with all other Apostles?  His magic abilities are just the icing on the cake of his uniqueness.

I don't believe it's been discussed before, and there's certainly no better time than now... We know Ganishka is a magic user, but where does Ganishka derive his powers from?  Obviously he's using fog as a medium to gather/store/transmit lightning, but is he using a creature like Kundalini to ground his control over the elements? Check out how fast he transmogrifies himself from human into fog back in Wyndham. It's definitely a unique use of magic...

Though, the answer may simply just be "it's magic."  :judo:

Yea, definantely didn't even think of that possibility. Schierke's derived most of her big spells from some sort of entity, but this form seems to be completely under Ganishka's will, it would be interesting to see if he's made some kind of pact, or is using a medium for this power, also if he is using a medium, where is the real Ganishka? I was talking to aaz earlier, and he brought up a possiblility that the Ganishka Irvine shot was made up of fog, and had merely been shaped itself like his normal human form.

Offline Smith

Re: Episode 276
« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2006, 04:48:23 AM »
I'm late... But I was pretty awed...



Zodd was DEFEATED??!!


I mean initially i can't even thought of that happening... Think of him as the only apostle who could hold ground with SK for so many years.. And yet was defeated within seconds?


I mean alot of people have the impression that Zodd is the STRONGEST.. and the only person (on earth i mean) who could defeated him is Griffith


Is Ganishka is really that powerful and Zodd have been searching for the USO for at least 300 years, shouldnt they have meet even before Zodd encountered the Hawk of light?


Anyway its ironical where back in volume 17, Zodd had thought to himself that those fellows (apostle) have not been satisfy his thirst for challenge, and only SK was the one... Now look like he had to changed that mindset :P



Btw Aaz, remember we talking abt how Locus was pretty unfazed by the lightning strike from Ganishka in vol 27? Perhap now i think Ganishka really didnt plan to attack him yet.. Seeing how Zodd was injuried by him, I guess Locus can't be anyway more resistant (Btw where the thread where we discuss these previous? maybe we could transfer to there?)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 04:56:46 AM by Smith »
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

smoke

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Re: Episode 276
« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2006, 05:01:34 AM »
Zodd was DEFEATED??!!


I don't think so. Not yet, anyway.

I expect him to jump out of the water and resume fighting within the next ten minutes.