Author Topic: Episode 204  (Read 20391 times)

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Offline Vermillion

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2002, 11:48:10 AM »
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Ugh, considering I never even mentioned it one way or the other, I suppose the answer would be “No”, huh? Better luck next time.

Now back to the point…

I look at the rape in Berserk the same way I do the extreme violence (it's a part of that violence after all). They’re both ugly things, but I also see them as a part of the story, part of the realism, and correspondingly, a fact of life that can’t be ignored simply because it makes people uncomfortable. It’s this mentality that fuels the shame many victims feel, keeps many of them suffering in silence, and allows predators to thrive while everyone looks away. If people want to look at the scenes of rape in Berserk as entertainment, whether condemning it's presence or by getting aroused by it (same difference, in my opinion), that’s their choice, but I wouldn’t change the story because of society’s ills.

-Griffith


I respect what you said, but you have to admit that there has to be some sort of fan service or marketing involved. Otherwise why doesnt Miura depict male rapes scenes with the same intensity and frequency like with the females....why not you say? because they(young animal bigwigs) believe the majority probably dont want to see that. It must happen in the Berserk world afterall.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Mage

Re: Episode 204
« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2002, 12:15:20 PM »
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Ugh, considering I never even mentioned it one way or the other, I suppose the answer would be “No”, huh? Better luck next time.

Now back to the point…

I look at the rape in Berserk the same way I do the extreme violence (it's a part of that violence after all). They’re both ugly things, but I also see them as a part of the story, part of the realism, and correspondingly, a fact of life that can’t be ignored simply because it makes people uncomfortable. It’s this mentality that fuels the shame many victims feel, keeps many of them suffering in silence, and allows predators to thrive while everyone looks away. If people want to look at the scenes of rape in Berserk as entertainment, whether condemning it's presence or by getting aroused by it (same difference, in my opinion), that’s their choice, but I wouldn’t change the story because of society’s ills.

-Griffith


My point was that gratuitous violence is not unique to Japan, whereas gratuitous rape is, so it's not unusual for an mature japanese story like Berserk to incorporate rape.  While the rape in Berserk may be some insight into the human nature, it's more likely just another expression of something ever present in mature japanese media for this reason.  I wasn't condemning Berserk's use of rape, just explaining that it's nothing extraordinary considering the audience.  Ignoring basic context and rationalizing everything as a part of some grander vision is blind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2002, 12:15:35 PM »
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I respect what you said, but you have to admit that there has to be some sort of fan service or marketing involved. Otherwise why doesnt Miura depict male rapes scenes with the same intensity and frequency like with the females....why not you say? because they(young animal bigwigs) believe the majority probably dont want to see that. It must happen in the Berserk world afterall.

Nine out of ten rape victims are women, and in America alone, a woman is sexually assaulted approximately every two minutes. Anyway, I can’t in anyway prove it’s not some kind of marketing or fan-service, but that doesn’t prove it is, either. In my opinion, in the context in which it’s presented, it’s not supposed to be entertaining, but disturbing.  Considering that Miura presented male rape at all, let alone perpetrated against his tough guy male lead, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.

-Griffith

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Ignoring basic context and rationalizing everything as a part of some grander vision is blind.

I think our opinions differ of what basic context is.

Offline Vermillion

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2002, 12:42:14 PM »
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Nine out of ten rape victims are women, and in America alone, a woman is sexually assaulted approximately every two minutes. Anyway, I can’t in anyway prove it’s not some kind of marketing or fan-service, but that doesn’t prove it is, either. In my opinion, in the context in which it’s presented, it’s not supposed to be entertaining, but disturbing.  Considering that Miura presented male rape at all, let alone perpetrated against his tough guy male lead, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.


Considering the fact that Casca's boobs arent that large, though in some panels they are...especially in the rape scenes.

And have you noticed, mostly all the gals that are being raped or having orgy sex are drawn like lil' hotties. I would consider that intentional fan service.
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Offline angelene

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2002, 12:55:00 PM »
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In my opinion, in the context in which it’s presented, it’s not supposed to be entertaining, but disturbing.



amen.

however, the point is (imho) not the number of violent/rape scenes presented or that there are any at all, nor does the context really matter. rather, it's the way they're presented. some of the rape scenes in berserk seem to focus more on honest-service-service than on honest-terror &pain.

this said, I agree that in the berserk world the equation woman=sex-toy shall be, what, no surprise. just as fitting as any other form of violence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2002, 03:03:11 PM »
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And have you noticed, mostly all the gals that are being raped or having orgy sex are drawn like lil' hotties. I would consider that intentional fan service.


so, if he drew "uglies" getting raped, itd be ok with you? or, rather, itd prove that it wasnt just for kicks?
how is that rational?
remember: a woman is a woman, no matter what she looks like (or drawn to look like).
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2002, 03:18:42 PM »
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amen.

however, the point is (imho) not the number of violent/rape scenes presented or that there are any at all, nor does the context really matter. rather, it's the way they're presented. some of the rape scenes in berserk seem to focus more on honest-service-service than on honest-terror &pain.


if your so offended by the rape sceans, then why don't you say anything about the orgy sceans?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline angelene

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2002, 03:37:29 PM »
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if your so offended by the rape sceans, then why don't you say anything about the orgy sceans?


1#. I am not "offended" by the rape scenes --  I don't consider them any particularly worthy, but that is all. my opinion on the berserk manga (which rocks) would be no different with or without them.*shrug*

2#. ahem. do I have to mention the orgies at all? why?  uh...well, but since you asked: same as above, I don't think they add much to the berserk manga, at least with the way they're displayed; the way they're drawn is suitable to the kind of public I am not, or so I assume. I may be wrong.

3#. this is my personal opinion. I don't claim it to the truth-to-be-told. okay? ;)

Offline Vermillion

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2002, 03:50:12 PM »
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so, if he drew "uglies" getting raped, itd be ok with you? or, rather, itd prove that it wasnt just for kicks?
how is that rational?
remember: a woman is a woman, no matter what she looks like (or drawn to look like).


Hey hey dont get the wrong idea...I never said those things. I'm just sayin that there's lots of fan service going around here and there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2002, 05:29:25 PM »
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Considering the fact that Casca's boobs arent that large, though in some panels they are...especially in the rape scenes.

I don’t know if I spend as much time staring at Casca’s cartoon breasts as others, but I can confirm that they are not the only thing that change size from panel to panel. Such as the Dragon Slayer, it’s longer, shorter, thinner, fatter depending on the picture. But that doesn’t lead me to believe it’s some kind of subliminal service for fans of phallic symbols.  It’s negligible.

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Hey hey dont get the wrong idea...I never said those things.

Yes, but by implication; if the women being depicted weren’t traditionally attractive, you wouldn’t think it was fan-service. I could just as easily argue that the women are attractive to make the audience instantly and more intensely empathize with them without character development; the universal image of the pure woman. The audience would subconsciously identify the character with someone they knew; whether they found that person to be attractive or not, it only matters that they find that someone pure and “bueatiful”(a beloved sister for instance). In that same vein, the men are made to look deformed and monstrous in order to heighten the effect virtue being destroyed by evil. It’s the same principle behind fan-service, but instead a technique used to enhance the power of the scene.

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1#. I am not "offended" by the rape scenes --  I don't consider them any particularly worthy, but that is all. my opinion on the berserk manga (which rocks) would be no different with or without them.*shrug*
2#. ahem. do I have to mention the orgies at all? why?  uh...well, but since you asked: same as above, I don't think they add much to the berserk manga, at least with the way they're displayed; the way they're drawn is suitable to the kind of public I am not, or so I assume. I may be wrong.
3#. this is my personal opinion. I don't claim it to the truth-to-be-told. okay? ;)

No arguments from me, good stuff.

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I'm just sayin that there's lots of fan service going around here and there.

That’s fine for your opinion, and your interpretation definitely supports it, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Anyway, this is I mess, I count three parallel debates I’m having here with different combinations of people. So, in closing; there’s no way to know what was in Miura’s head when he drew the manga, I don’t know what he intended, nor does anyone else. So I’m simply not going to make cynical assumptions. I don’t think it is, but I can at least consider that it’s fan-service, but what’s important is can you consider it isn’t? How one sees it in their mind is more important than what’s on paper. See whatever you want to see, I’ll risk being naďve for the sake of the stories power and integrity.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline White Hawk

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2002, 05:54:05 PM »
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1#. I am not "offended" by the rape scenes --  I don't consider them any particularly worthy, but that is all. my opinion on the berserk manga (which rocks) would be no different with or without them.*shrug*



Hmm, it is fair to say so, but would the dark side of the world of berserk be that "dark" and corrupted if it wasn't for the "explicit" sex scenes we encounter every while? Can you immagine Slann with a bra, madonna like? Or the Cult of the Goat (sorry for the bad trans, I improvised) being as evil and slimy as it is if we didn't see that mega orgy?
I think all things Miura draws are there for a reason...
of course, it's up to us to like it or not

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2#. ahem. do I have to mention the orgies at all? why?  uh...well, but since you asked: same as above, I don't think they add much to the berserk manga, at least with the way they're displayed; the way they're drawn is suitable to the kind of public I am not, or so I assume. I may be wrong.


Well as I said above, it's a matter of perspective.
Hairy demons raping drugged girls don't really turn no clicks on me too, but I see the point the author's makin... They re frickin ewol!  :D

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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2002, 06:18:18 PM »
Any more talk of rape in this topic and I will lock it. If you want to continue the discussioin, please start up a new topic in 'Berserk-related, yet still miscellaneous'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Vermillion

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2002, 06:46:33 PM »
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I don’t know if I spend as much time staring at Casca’s cartoon breasts as others, but I can confirm that they are not the only thing that change size from panel to panel. Such as the Dragon Slayer, it’s longer, shorter, thinner, fatter depending on the picture. But that doesn’t lead me to believe it’s some kind of subliminal service for fans of phallic symbols.  It’s negligible.

ok fine (dang you sure are one stubborn cat, just like me :P)


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Yes, but by implication

Well your wrong, I wasn't even implying all tht stuff. Those thoughts didnt even enter my mind when I wrote the post, so please stop assuming.

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That’s fine for your opinion, and your interpretation definitely supports it, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a fact.

Sure I'm good with that

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So, in closing; there’s no way to know what was in Miura’s head when he drew the manga, I don’t know what he intended, nor does anyone else. So I’m simply not going to make cynical assumptions. I don’t think it is, but I can at least consider that it’s fan-service, but what’s important is can you consider it isn’t? How one sees it in their mind is more important than what’s on paper. See whatever you want to see, I’ll risk being naďve for the sake of the stories power and integrity.
-Griffith


I will consider it as you ask, but remember we are both not wrong, we just have different points of views, its as simple as that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2002, 07:01:27 PM »
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I will consider it as you ask, but remember we are both not wrong, we just have different points of views, its as simple as that.

Of course, I totally agree, settled.

So now, who think Guts will go nuts fighting the trolls and will the Skull Knight show up?!

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Vermillion

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2002, 07:14:11 PM »
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So now, who think Guts will go nuts fighting the trolls and will the Skull Knight show up?!
-Griffith


Guts going in a mad wild kill spree against the trolls?? Oh yeah definitely, if his past ecounters with monsters are any indication.

Unless the troll leader is Void in disguise, I doubt the SkullKnight will show for this fight thats coming.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline bakaneko

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2002, 06:21:38 AM »
It will be interesting seeing the Trolls(if they are the "usual" trolls) regenerate...if they do that is...and it will be up to Isidro to use his fire daggers...unless Guts cuts them into a million pieces and have a stew :) and of course Serpico's windcloak is against Irvine(.IMO)

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #91 on: July 26, 2002, 10:55:27 AM »
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unless Guts cuts them into a million pieces and have a stew  and of course Serpico's windcloak is against Irvine(.IMO)

Wow, thats a nonsequiter if Ive ever seen one. Why are they being pitted against each other? Because they both have eye problems?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #92 on: July 26, 2002, 12:38:12 PM »
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Why are they being pitted against each other? Because they both have eye problems?

Schierke said that his cloak could protect him against arrows, and his sword allows him to hurt enemies from some distance.
So why not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline angelene

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #93 on: July 26, 2002, 12:56:17 PM »
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Hmm, it is fair to say so, but would the dark side of the  world of berserk be that "dark" and corrupted if it wasn't for the "explicit" sex scenes we encounter every while? Can you immagine Slann with a bra, madonna like? Or the Cult of the Goat (sorry for the bad trans, I
improvised) being as evil and slimy as it is if we didn't see that mega orgy? I think all things Miura draws are there for a reason... of course, it's up to us to like it or not

Well as I said above, it's a matter of perspective.  Hairy demons raping drugged girls don't really turn no clicks on me too, but I see the point the author's makin... They re frickin ewol!  :D


agreed. but I would've liked it better had it been a little closer to, say,  the stanley kubrick's version of an orgy -- so that was spooky.  8)

back to the subject, I was thinking, could  this 'new adventure' (ie. fight the trolls, deal with witches, young&old, deal with inner space beast whilst somewhat proceeding on pursuing vengeance against griffith) might be seen somehow as parallel to the lost children arc?  I dunno, there's a few details that ring as 'similar' to me (ie. the notable position of elves, disbodied creatures sieging villages and going after women and children, the shadow beast peeping in once in a while, skully constantly following Guts &co.), albeit I recognize there's a handful of differences. furthermore, the basic structure of berserk might be seen as that:
  • kuroi kenshi arc
  • taka-no dan arc -> first eclipse (grif/Femto's birth #1)
  • lost children arc
  • retribution -> second eclipse  (grif/Femto's birth #2)
  • millenium falcon -> trolls/witches &other "fantasy" events

so,  shall we expect all another arc (taka no dan #2?), perhaps with a third eclipse? will grif get to be reborn, again?

Offline Ger24

Re: Episode 204
« Reply #94 on: July 26, 2002, 01:37:02 PM »
Anybody think these trolls were made by an apostle or they just appeared because of Griffith?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #95 on: July 26, 2002, 01:37:36 PM »
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Schierke said that his cloak could protect him against arrows, and his sword allows him to hurt enemies from some distance.
So why not?

OH MY GOD! Walter has been “Hagued” again!

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agreed. but I would've liked it better had it been a little closer to, say,  the stanley kubrick's version of an orgy

You mean, the “really disappointing final film” version? =)

Just kidding. But speaking of the orgey scene, read Namirrha’s notes at the bottom of this page:

http://www.geocities.com/namirrha/berserk18_03to08.html

They’re most interesting.

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albeit I recognize there's a handful of differences.

More like a handful of superficial similarities and everything else is different. Sure, the town under siege is reminiscent of Lost Children, but this is just a subplot of the arc.

-Griffith

P.S. 205 was released today, right? I want to get to the Troll cleaving. Any wild, unfounded predictions for 205?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2002, 01:45:52 PM »
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P.S. 205 was released today, right? I want to get to the Troll cleaving.

No Troll in episode 205.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2002, 06:16:51 AM »
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Anyway, it looks like the next Young Animal sans Berserk will be issue #17.
So it will probably be:
July 26: Episode 205
August 9: Episode 206
August 23: Nothing
September 13: Episode 207

Confirmed. We'll have to wait more than a month until episode 207.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline trapped_soul

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2002, 06:49:33 AM »
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Confirmed. We'll have to wait more than a month until episode 207.

well... we're used to that, aren't we?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Falco_Nero

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Re: Episode 204
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2002, 04:30:02 PM »
I am finally getting a chance to come up for air here...

I am glad everyone liked the scans; too bad I only go through Tokyo only about once every two years, eh?  

Somebody mentioned that one of the pages was cut off at the bottom -- I checked, and there was only about a quarter-inch of one panel cut off.  It looked like there ought to be more, because it showed the tops of some trolls' heads, but that was all there was in the panel, actually.

And I should say that I was shocked, shocked! ;) to see how much of the rest of Young Animal is devoted to ecchi stuff!  I couldn't let my former girlfriend (i.e. wife) see it at all... Berserk is easily the best thing in there.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »