Author Topic: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]  (Read 103436 times)

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Offline CnC

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2005, 03:51:21 PM »
Silat is agile almost to the point of being superhuman.  While I admit that there are already other characters like this in Berserk, each time another is added, it feels a bit less 'real' to me.

Reality huh? Silat's abilities aren't "superhuman", but he does have skill.  Reality isn't something you should hold on to with too much fervor in this story...

Maybe I'm not in a good position to argue this, all I can do is give my opinion, explain how the scene makes me feel.  While watching the anime, I was able to suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy it.  It felt 'real' enough to me that I didn't question it.  In the Guts/Silat fight, I just couldn't get into it.

Well, there really wasn't much of a fight in the anime... they kinda just cut to the victory.

In any fiction, the words are the author's.  The idea is to give each character personality, convince the reader that these are real people, that these words came from their own minds.  In this case, he didn't quite sell it to me.

Well, considering Silat was a new character, it wasn't like we had anything to go on in terms of a determination of character.  So its hard to say that what he was thinking or saying was out of character.

But after a certain point this debate is pointless, if you didn't like the fight, fine.  Its not my favorite, but its good for an establishment of Guts' reemergence, plus the result of his being away training.  Other than that, the fight doesn't have too much point in terms of character development or movement of the plot.
It might be worth noting that the anime has even less in that regard.  Also, it was around this point that the anime and manga started to deviate from each other immensely.  The anime tends to summarize the major points while the manga gives us greater depth.  Comparing the two becomes pointless at this point since the anime leaves so much out.
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Offline EndlessSky

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2005, 04:18:57 PM »
Ya, it is a Fantasy story, so you shouldn't be hoping for alot of realism, you will need a open mind, especially for later on.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2005, 04:24:08 PM »
You're not gonna let me get away with disliking this scene, are you?

Not if you're going to assert invalid reasons as why you dislike it, no. It's fine to me that you don't like something, but trying to justify it inappropriately isn't.

I was just responding to the impression you got from the anime.  You said the Hawks were less than nobody in the way they were depicted in the anime, however that's not what I see when I watch the anime.  Maybe 'nobodies' was the wrong word, they were merely beaten by enemies who had not been introduced as characters.

You used that word first, not me. And these guys were nobodies, and the Hawks were losing to them, with an emphasis on Casca again, before Guts arrived. Low morale, low numbers? And? Like I said, they weren't attacked by hundreds of people, nor were their asaillants especially good, apparently. You can find any "excuse" you want, the result is the same.

That emoticon is a spoiler!   :troll:

That one, too.

Silat is agile almost to the point of being superhuman.  While I admit that there are already other characters like this in Berserk, each time another is added, it feels a bit less 'real' to me.

Silat is very agile, that's it. There's nothing he does physically that I haven't seen done in real life. Again, you might want to reconsider your position before judging what's realistic or not, since I have a feeling you assume more than you know about this in general. Believe me, you've yet to see a character whose agility is superhuman.

And seriously, if a merely spectacular and uncommon fight like this one bothers you regarding realism (though I maintain your statement is uncalled for), I'm afraid you won't like the rest of the story. I mean, Guts in volume 3 swinging the Dragon Slayer with his mouth, that's unrealistic. Basic elements in this manga are unrealistic, the main character himself for example, and while in this precise case nothing particularly incredible happens, it's sort of an exception to the rule. Remember that this is a fantasy manga.

Maybe I'm not in a good position to argue this, all I can do is give my opinion, explain how the scene makes me feel.  While watching the anime, I was able to suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy it.  It felt 'real' enough to me that I didn't question it.  In the Guts/Silat fight, I just couldn't get into it.

Well like I said, that's an unfortunate problem, but you shouldn't argue that it's not realistic if you have no serious ground to back it up. I'm mostly reacting to this because that fight is actually relatively credible compared to a lot of others.

The difference in that scene is that they were surrounded, and nobody was making the first move, so Adon had time to give his speeches.  In the Guts/Silat fight, there was a battle raging all around them while the two of them had a chat.

The asaillants were busy fighting the Hawks (and losing), they weren't 100 against one. Judo wanted to help Guts but Casca told him to let them alone. Nobody was making the first move either, Silat was cautious (having learned about Guts the hard way) and Guts was waiting for him, so they could talk to each other. Besides, Silat had attacked Casca by behind, the combat was taking place on the other side of the camp, so Guts and him were remote from the rest of the battle. What's your point again?

There are some great battles in the manga also.  I do have difficulty interpreting the action, however, in any manga or comic book.

Yeah, like I said, it's very unfortunate, but that's not a problem in the manga, just some difficulty you have with the medium in itself.

I think you nailed it here.  Your description of the battle helps me see the flow of it better.  It seems more drawn-out when I'm reading it, since I spend so much time looking at each panel to figure out what's going on.

Well I don't know, maybe you can try to put some music while reading and flip your eyes between the panels?

In any fiction, the words are the author's.  The idea is to give each character personality, convince the reader that these are real people, that these words came from their own minds.

No shit. I'd still like to know what doesn't sound like the characters have their own personality... Guts talks like he always does and Silat is a pretty believable character in the context, as a mysterious enemy.

Offline Frog

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2005, 05:36:11 PM »
This whole thing about the Guts/Silat fight has become a much bigger deal than I meant it to be.  That scene just didn't feel as natural to me as the rest of the volume, that's all.  It really has nothing to do with Silat's abilities, or the weapons he used, or anything like that.  What bothered me was the way they spoke during the fight, it just didn't feel natural to me.  I must not have expressed myself well, when I talk about 'feeling real' I'm not talking about what's possible in terms of their abilities, I'm talking about the dialogue and how the characters act.  As long as I see them as real, thinking, feeling, people, I can suspend my disbelief about the fantastical bits.

Yes, it sometimes bothers me when so many incredibly skilled characters are introduced, but I can get over it, you're right, it is a fantasy manga after all.  But the author has to convince me to care about these characters.

Reality huh? Silat's abilities aren't "superhuman", but he does have skill. Reality isn't something you should hold on to with too much fervor in this story...

It was pretty incredible the way he bent over all the way backwards, with his feet on Guts' shoulders, in order to drive his weapons into Guts' chest.  (This is actually in example from the earlier fight, but it's a good example)  While there may be a few people in real life that could pull it off, it's still pretty incredible.

Well, there really wasn't much of a fight in the anime... they kinda just cut to the victory.

And I wasn't complaining!  I really don't read Berserk for the fight scenes, anyway.

Well, considering Silat was a new character, it wasn't like we had anything to go on in terms of a determination of character. So its hard to say that what he was thinking or saying was out of character.

You do have a point there.  Maybe Silat is just the kind of guy that talks too much.

But after a certain point this debate is pointless, if you didn't like the fight, fine. Its not my favorite, but its good for an establishment of Guts' reemergence, plus the result of his being away training.

Yeah, I just wasn't that thrilled with this scene, it's really not a big deal.

You used that word first, not me.

Now I'm trying to backpedal on it and call them "enemies that hadn't been introduced as characters".  I didn't mean 'nobodies' as in 'worthless losers'.

And these guys were nobodies, and the Hawks were losing to them, with an emphasis on Casca again, before Guts arrived. Low morale, low numbers? And? Like I said, they weren't attacked by hundreds of people, nor were their asaillants especially good, apparently. You can find any "excuse" you want, the result is the same.

I'm not just trying to make excuses, I liked the fact that they were getting their asses kicked here, it showed how run-down the hawks were.  Spending a year on the run from Midland, without Griffith's leadership, losing hope, many wounded, many deserters.  Plus they were ambushed.

That one, too.

Haha, I know, I was trying to be funny.   :guts:   I can of course see all of them on the "Post Reply" screen.

The asaillants were busy fighting the Hawks (and losing), they weren't 100 against one. Judo wanted to help Guts but Casca told him to let them alone. Nobody was making the first move either, Silat was cautious (having learned about Guts the hard way) and Guts was waiting for him, so they could talk to each other. Besides, Silat had attacked Casca by behind, the combat was taking place on the other side of the camp, so Guts and him were remote from the rest of the battle. What's your point again?

You brought up the comparison to the 100-man fight, so I compared it.  Since there was no fighting going on at the moment, I more easily accepted the big speeches.

No shit. I'd still like to know what doesn't sound like the characters have their own personality... Guts talks like he always does and Silat is a pretty believable character in the context, as a mysterious enemy.

Mainly Silat giving so much exposition slows down the action and takes me out of the scene.  "Very well...then I shall add those two or three more!  Urumi!  The name means Thunder!  As the name suggests, it's power is like a thunderclap, and it's the mightiest within my arsenal!  Drink of it deeply!"  He managed to say all that before he started whipping those things at Guts?  He must have either been talking very fast or moving pretty slow.  This is what I meant when I compared it to Dragonball, where the characters would talk so much about what their attacks are.  Dialogue like this is really my main problem with the sequence.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2005, 06:53:16 PM »
This whole thing about the Guts/Silat fight has become a much bigger deal than I meant it to be.  That scene just didn't feel as natural to me as the rest of the volume, that's all.

It's OK for it to be a big deal, we're just discussing the reasons you invoked as to why you didn't like it.

when I talk about 'feeling real' I'm not talking about what's possible in terms of their abilities, I'm talking about the dialogue and how the characters act.

So you're saying the dialogue and the characters' actions aren't realistic? Any base for this? What is the reference to decide upon what is a realistic speech for a given character and what isn't?

Yes, it sometimes bothers me when so many incredibly skilled characters are introduced

So many? :schierke: The world is vast, I think you'd expect there to be more than one capable person in it. Basically you'd prefer to see mediocre fights between mediocre fighters to sum up what you said, unfortunately most people don't.

It was pretty incredible the way he bent over all the way backwards, with his feet on Guts' shoulders, in order to drive his weapons into Guts' chest.

Yeah well, it's a neat stunt, so? Guts does incredible things all the time (like blocking Griffith's sword with his teeth)... And again, don't forget that this is all dynamic, Silat didn't spend an hour flipping over.

Now I'm trying to backpedal on it and call them "enemies that hadn't been introduced as characters".  I didn't mean 'nobodies' as in 'worthless losers'.

But they were worthless losers anyway. Both in the manga and the anime, that's what you instinctively assumed and I don't think you were wrong to. There's a reason for them to be nameless and anonymous.

I'm not just trying to make excuses, I liked the fact that they were getting their asses kicked here, it showed how run-down the hawks were.  Spending a year on the run from Midland, without Griffith's leadership, losing hope, many wounded, many deserters.  Plus they were ambushed.

They weren't ambushed, their camp was attacked at night. I already pointed out twice that being run-down didn't excuse the situation, a fighter's skills don't disappear because the morale is low. Besides only the best, most loyal members stayed after these incidents, and Casca led the Hawks well during that time. To assume that the best army in all of Midland can't stand its ground against 2 dozens scoundrels and needs Guts to send them fleeing in a matter of seconds is pretty illogical to me. Guts kills 3 guys and that's it, nothing the enemy can do, retreat. Where's the "realism" in that?

You brought up the comparison to the 100-man fight, so I compared it.

Yeah, and you overlooked what I said. Your comparison doesn't make much sense since the criterias you're basing yourself on are completely subjective and dare I say partial as far as I can see. In the same way, Guts spends 2 minutes talking to Casca without watching his back during the attack in the anime, all the soldiers themselves stop fighting and recognize him instantly too. Realism?

Mainly Silat giving so much exposition slows down the action and takes me out of the scene. [...] He managed to say all that before he started whipping those things at Guts?  He must have either been talking very fast or moving pretty slow.

That doesn't answer the question you quote, regarding the characters' personalities. And the action may have stopped for a few seconds, just like in the one hundred man slaying fight. It was a rather cautious and slow fight, like I've been saying, a one on one fight in which careful actions and boasting are perfectly possible, especially considering that Guts was assuming a defensive stance and didn't attack. I suspect your inability to comprehend fighting scenes to be preventing you from understanding this.

Offline CnC

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2005, 07:35:31 PM »
Some minor points, aaz.

They weren't ambushed, their camp was attacked at night.

huh?

am·bush
n.

   1. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
   2. A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
   4. A hidden peril or trap.

Basically, I think they _were_ ambushed, by definition.

I already pointed out twice that being run-down didn't excuse the situation, a fighter's skills don't disappear because the morale is low.

Definition, again....
Disappear? no.  However fighting "skill" is hampered.  I think its safe to assume morale was low among the remaining hawks, despite their loyalty.
But this really has nothing to do with the Silat/Guts fight, as morale was not an issue.

Quote from: Aazealh/Frog
(the rest of what you guys said in all those little bullet points  :schierke:)

Keep in mind this fight wasn't much more than Guts' surprise re-entry to the Hawks.  Silat was a narrative device used solely to "test" Guts.  This is the point that was missed in the anime. Silat was a character who had already established himself as being a capable fighter and thus the face of the "threat" to the hawks.  Guts challenged and defeated this threat by defeating Silat.  The rest of the fight, morale, number of soldiers, ect, doesn't really matter after Silat is defeated. 

The anime skipped this for the same reasons they skipped a lot of things...
If someone prefers this over what actually happened, well then who am I to challenge that opinion (besides being right!! haha!!  :griff:).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 07:50:01 PM by CnC »
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Offline Frog

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2005, 07:55:53 PM »
It's OK for it to be a big deal, we're just discussing the reasons you invoked as to why you didn't like it.

Well, I'd much rather talk about all the things in Berserk that I like, instead of defending my opinions about the one or two things I didn't like.  This is a hell of a way to introduce myself to the boards!

So you're saying the dialogue and the characters' actions aren't realistic? Any base for this? What is the reference to decide upon what is a realistic speech for a given character and what isn't?

What I meant here was, it doesn't seem realistic that anyone would go on the way Silat does here.  The reference would be real life, me having conversations with people and observing people.  Obviously, I've never been on a battlefield or in the fictional country of Midland, so I can't say from experience how someone would act there.  But just from my expectations of what it would be like, it didn't feel natural.

Basically you'd prefer to see mediocre fights between mediocre fighters to sum up what you said, unfortunately most people don't.

Well, I don't mind it as much when the fighters are supposed to be supernatural.  The battle with Zodd, for example, was very exciting for me.  My favorite battle so far is probably also the shortest, the Guts/Griffith duel in volume 8.  These two characters are probably the two best swordsmen in the series (so far).  Maybe I don't like new super-skilled characters like Silat because they make my favorites (Guts and Griff) seem less special.

They weren't ambushed, their camp was attacked at night. I already pointed out twice that being run-down didn't excuse the situation, a fighter's skills don't disappear because the morale is low. Besides only the best, most loyal members stayed after these incidents, and Casca led the Hawks well during that time. To assume that the best army in all of Midland can't stand its ground against 2 dozens scoundrels and needs Guts to send them fleeing in a matter of seconds is pretty illogical to me.

I thought this counted as an ambush, maybe I chose the wrong word?  Sneak attack?  Night attack?  What I meant was, they were unprepared.  They were sleeping, eating, tending their wounds, with only a single (sleeping) sentry posted that we see.

In my opinion, they're not the best army in Midland without Griffith.  Like Corkus says, "Without Griffith, the Band of the Hawk is just a rabble anyway...".  I think the anime version proved that statement true.  Maybe that's not the intent of the original?  Are we supposed to see that Corkus is wrong?  In either case, I still prefer the anime version of this scene.

In the same way, Guts spends 2 minutes talking to Casca without watching his back during the attack in the anime, all the soldiers themselves stop fighting and recognize him instantly too. Realism?

When the Hawks are attacked, people are dying all around Guts (whether Hawks or enemies), and I would expect he would want to get into the fight without wasting any time.  During the 100-man scene, I don't mind Adon making speeches since he's not in the fight.  I don't mind Guts talking to Casca when the soldiers' attack lets up.  And I can buy the soldier's faltering when we see how they are afraid of Guts.

That doesn't answer the question you quote, regarding the character's personalities.

Like I said, the idea is for the author to convince you that these are real people, that this situation is real.  Giving them personality is one example I gave of how an author can do this.  The way Silat was wasting time giving a mini-speech broke that reality for me, which I was buying into until that point.

And the action may have stopped for a few seconds, just like in the one hundred man slaying fight. It was a rather cautious and slow fight, like I've been saying, a one on one fight in which careful actions and boasting are perfectly possible, especially considering that Guts was assuming a defensive stance and didn't attack. I suspect your inability to comprehend fighting scenes to be preventing you from understanding this.

Well, if it took Silat that long to get out his weapons and boast about them, Guts should've just chopped him in half.  Or maybe you're right, maybe I'm not following the scene correctly and there was a reason Guts couldn't attack.  It isn't until page 146 (does the Japanese version have the same page numbers?) that Guts takes a defensive stance, after Silat had already been whipping them about for a while.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2005, 08:56:10 PM »
Basically, I think they _were_ ambushed, by definition.

Well read the definition you're quoting, buddy. "The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise." They didn't lie in wait, they weren't concealed. They just attacked the enemy camp by surprise, it's not an ambush. Try again.

Definition, again....
Disappear? no.  However fighting "skill" is hampered.  I think its safe to assume morale was low among the remaining hawks, despite their loyalty.

Definition what? Hampering? I think you miss the point again, fact is they did hold their ground and defeat the attackers in the manga, they had a low morale but that didn't prevent them to fight to save their lives. I don't see what any definition has to do with this.

Keep in mind this fight wasn't much more than Guts' surprise re-entry to the Hawks. Silat was a narrative device used solely to "test" Guts.

That's part of it, you're oversimplifying things if you think it's the only reason it happens. This has nothing to do with the discussion though, and doesn't relate to what I said.

If someone prefers this over what actually happened, well then who am I to challenge that opinion (besides being right!! haha!!  :griff:).

That's not the point. And as long as something is inconsistent, I'll challenge it.

Well, I'd much rather talk about all the things in Berserk that I like, instead of defending my opinions about the one or two things I didn't like.  This is a hell of a way to introduce myself to the boards!

Haha, that's understandable. Don't worry though, nobody's going to hate you for it.

What I meant here was, it doesn't seem realistic that anyone would go on the way Silat does here.  The reference would be real life, me having conversations with people and observing people.  Obviously, I've never been on a battlefield or in the fictional country of Midland, so I can't say from experience how someone would act there.

Yeah, that was sort of my point. I think it makes sense for him to act like that, since brute force/skill doesn't work, he tries to destabilize his adversary. Then there's his personality showing through the fact that he's visibly trying to impress Guts. We've already discussed this anyway.

Well, I don't mind it as much when the fighters are supposed to be supernatural.

But then again, it wasn't supernatural here, just spectacular to some degree.

Maybe I don't like new super-skilled characters like Silat because they make my favorites (Guts and Griff) seem less special.

Well, Silat's skills weren't on par with Guts', but I can see what you mean here. However, it's still logical to assume that there are more than 2 skilled warriors in the world. You may not like it, but that doesn't change this.

I thought this counted as an ambush, maybe I chose the wrong word?  Sneak attack?

Yeah, see my explanation to CnC. You don't ambush when you move to attack an unmoving target, by definition.

In my opinion, they're not the best army in Midland without Griffith.  Like Corkus says, "Without Griffith, the Band of the Hawk is just a rabble anyway...".

Well Carcus isn't known for his reliable opinion, he's also the one saying he'll kill Guts so... :schierke: He was just bitter in that scene, as always. Griffith didn't win the war alone either, his lieutenants and soldiers were skilled too... More than others. Strategy alone doesn't work if you lack good troops. And Casca was a good leader, from what everbody says. This is all pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned, and their opponents here weren't highly trained troops anyway.

I think the anime version proved that statement true.  Maybe that's not the intent of the original?

The only thing the anime proves true is that Guts is superpowerful, his name being enough to cause enemies to flee... And it's indeed not the intent of the original to show that the Hawks are nothing without Griffith. They're weakened, not weak.

When the Hawks are attacked, people are dying all around Guts (whether Hawks or enemies), and I would expect he would want to get into the fight without wasting any time.

No, they're not literally all around him, he and Silat are relatively isolated like I said, and the Hawks hold their ground pretty well in the manga, so no need for him to hurry. Also, Guts gets into the fight rather slowly in the anime, he takes his time and waits for enemies to come at him.

During the 100-man scene, I don't mind Adon making speeches since he's not in the fight.  I don't mind Guts talking to Casca when the soldiers' attack lets up.  And I can buy the soldier's faltering when we see how they are afraid of Guts.

So you don't mind anything even though the situation is relatively identical basically. You say Guts should have chopped Silat while he was talking, same here. He should have attacked soldiers, Adon, Samson, anything. It's really just a matter of personal perception.

The way Silat was wasting time giving a mini-speech broke that reality for me

Wasting time? You said you coudn't understand the fight without it, right? And how exactly are you appreciating time here? The length of the speech bubble? I think that's the problem here: the reader decides how time elapses in a manga, he has to imagine what happens between every panel. It's a waste of time only if you choose it to be.

Well, if it took Silat that long to get out his weapons and boast about them, Guts should've just chopped him in half.  Or maybe you're right, maybe I'm not following the scene correctly and there was a reason Guts couldn't attack.

Yeah, I think you don't follow it correctly.

It isn't until page 146 (does the Japanese version have the same page numbers?) that Guts takes a defensive stance, after Silat had already been whipping them about for a while.

Guts was only defending before, he took a different stance in that page, a static one, but that doesn't mean he wasn't defending before. He concentrated himself on dodging and parrying, not attacking.

Offline Darth

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2005, 08:56:33 PM »
Well, I don't mind it as much when the fighters are supposed to be supernatural.  The battle with Zodd, for example, was very exciting for me.  My favorite battle so far is probably also the shortest, the Guts/Griffith duel in volume 8.  These two characters are probably the two best swordsmen in the series (so far).  Maybe I don't like new super-skilled characters like Silat because they make my favorites (Guts and Griff) seem less special.
just watch how all of the remaining manga that equaled the anime differ from one another.

on the subject of Silat, i have to say that i preferred him more than the other person in the anime. Silat's fighting techniques and weapons were far more intresting and, kind of historic. Also, i found the dialogue to be gripping, because it just added more to the already heated fighting scene.

plus I'm not 100% sure, but 99% sure, when the hawks were raided later that night in the anime. the fighter that faced guts was not leading them. on the other hand in the manga Silat in the manga was. so his charter was quite a nice build up to the scene. its only too bad that it was not in the anime (amongst other things) now I'm not saying anything bad about the anime, because it is my single favorite anime series. but, it does not stand up in comparsion to the manga.

Well, I'd much rather talk about all the things in Berserk that I like, instead of defending my opinions about the one or two things I didn't like. This is a hell of a way to introduce myself to the boards!
Welcome :guts:

since it is your first time reading Berserk, what are some of the things that you like?

And trust me it just keeps getting better :miura:
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:23:59 PM by DarthVenom »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2005, 09:18:57 PM »
when the hawks were raided later that night in the anime. then fighter that faced guts was not leading them.

Yes, in the anime Guts defeats him very easily and that's it.

Offline Darth

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2005, 09:23:01 PM »
Yes, in the anime Guts defeats him very easily and that's it.

excuse me what i mean to type was "the fighter, who guts faced at the contest was not leading them" which made Silat such a better character, because they had time to build him up.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2005, 09:27:51 PM »
excuse me what i mean to type was "the fighter, who guts faced at the contest was not leading them" which made Silat such a better character, because they had time to build him up.

Yeah, I know. Like I said, in the anime Guts defeats him in the contest and we never see him again.

Offline Frog

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2005, 09:42:03 PM »
But then again, it wasn't supernatural here, just spectacular to some degree.

I know you don't agree, but in my opinion some of Silat's skills do border on being superhuman.

it's still logical to assume that there are more than 2 skilled warriors in the world.

Of course.

Griffith didn't win the war alone either, his lieutenants and soldiers were skilled too... More than others. Strategy alone doesn't work if you lack good troops.

I agree that many of the Hawks are exceptional, but I think it could be in part because they are inspired or influenced by Griffith.  Even Guts is forced to try harder and live up to Griffith's expectations of an 'equal'.  How about what Judeau says in volume 5: "On his own, no one of us is any big deal, no different from any other mercenary."

So you don't mind anything even though the situation is relatively identical basically. You say Guts should have chopped Silat while he was talking, same here. He should have attacked, soldiers, Adon, Samson, anything. It's really just a matter of your perception.

I don't see the situations as identical.  In the Silat fight, he came back specifically to save the Hawks.  It seems to me he would rush into the action.  In the 100-man fight, he was trying to protect Casca, so it would make sense to fight more defensively.

Wasting time? You coudn't understand the fight without it, right?

Yeah, it was more like he was wasting his own time, not the reader's time.  To me, all that talk seemed like an opening where Guts should have been attacking.

And how exactly are you appreciating time here? The length of the speech bubble?

Pretty much.  Try saying all that stuff out loud, and see how long it takes!  And then look at how much happens between the frames.  It seems like the actions should be taking a split second, while all that dialogue would take much longer.  It just doesn't seem to line up.

just watch how all of the remaining manga that equaled the anime differ from one another.

Yeah, I'm sure there will be quite a few more differences to come!  A lot of the differences so far I've appreciated, but this one bugged me.


plus I'm not 100% sure, but 99% sure, when the hawks were raided later that night in the anime. the fighter that faced guts was not leading them. on the other hand in the manga Silat in the manga was.

Right, in the anime the Hawks just fought nobodies.  Er, I mean, "enemies who hadn't been introduced as characters".


Welcome :guts:

Thanks!

since it is your first time reading Berserk, what are some of the things that you like?

Check out my first post in this thread, where I gave my impressions of volume 9.  I've mainly been talking about Silat since then, since that's the part that was replied to.

Offline CnC

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2005, 09:52:07 PM »
Well read the definition you're quoting, buddy. "The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise." They didn't lie in wait, they weren't concealed. They just attacked the enemy camp by surprise, it's not an ambush. Try again.

Um, aaz.  This is an ambush, by any definition of the word.  To say "they attacked the enemy camp by surprise" and not call it an ambush is a lack of understanding of the term.  They enemy 1) used the cover of night to attack 2)did not announce their attack until they charged.  There really isn't any grey area on this one.  I have absolutely no reservation about the term "ambush" being used to describe this attack.

Definition what? Hampering? I think you miss the point again, fact is they did hold their ground and defeat the attackers in the manga, they had a low morale but that didn't prevent them to fight to save their lives. I don't see what any definition has to do with this.

The point I was making, which is why I prefaced by saying "definition again", was more akin to the definition of the words used rather than a way to describe the condition of the hawks.  I was arguing more over your choice of words rather than the debate at hand.  Basically, I was saying that "Morale" does play a part in how a person or more importantly a fighting force can perform, not that the hawks were losing.  I also tried to stress the point that neither morale nor the condition of the hawks was the focus of this fight, hence the next bit about my simplification:

That's part of it, you're oversimplifying things if you think it's the only reason it happens. This has nothing to do with the discussion though, and doesn't relate to what I said.

Thats why I generalized to EVERYTHING (read what I'm quoting) you and frog have been arguing about, rather than point to specifics. 

I don't think my simplification of this fight is unwarranted.  The fight between Guts and Silat (their second, mind you) serves no extreme importance in the narrative, hence why it could be cut out of the anime.  Its an establishment of skill and its a challenge to Guts as he finds himself back in the hawks' company. 
Before I continue I'm not saying, by any means, that the fight wasn't entertaining or that I thought it was dumb.  I didn't think that it was another silly fight (akin to many other anime/manga) where techniques and power levels are discussed at length.
That being said, nobody really developed as a result of this fight.  There was no point in the story that hinged on this fight.  It didn't serve in importance as many of the other fights in the series.  As you said, the hawks weren't in mortal danger, they were surprise-attacked (ambushed) and were fighting back (and winning), so their survival wasn't in real jeopardy.  At the moment Casca is cornered by Silat, the focus of the battle changes to the entrance of our hero.  There really wasn't much else to it.  Guts takes on Silat, and wins.  Nobody (important) dies, nobody (except possibly Silat) grows as a character (if Silat DID grow as a character, it has yet to be seen).  Its merely an entertaining battle.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2005, 10:03:40 PM »
I know you don't agree, but in my opinion some of Silat's skills do border on being superhuman.

Well, if anything Guts is "more" superhuman than him. And he does beat him, too. But like previously said, these things shouldn't be even considered here, it's a fantasy manga, supernatural stuff happens all the time.

I agree that many of the Hawks are exceptional, but I think it could be in part because they are inspired or influenced by Griffith.

Oh, of course. Griffith is an exceptional leader, and he played the most important role in getting them to the top. I just meant that they aren't completely powerless without him.

In the Silat fight, he came back specifically to save the Hawks.  It seems to me he would rush into the action.

He did rush into the action to save Casca, but apart from that the Hawks weren't having too much trouble. The real menace was Silat, and he took care of it.

To me, all that talk seemed like an opening where Guts should have been attacking.

But Silat was ready to attack himself, and Guts more on the defensive. I don't think it's a coincidence you know... Guts attacking would have been the occasion for Silat to surprise him with his unusual weapons, this is also the reason Guts was wary, and the reason Silat was talking. Silat's weapons also have a longer range (chakram and Urumi), that could be what you are missing.

Pretty much.  Try saying all that stuff out loud, and see how long it takes!

In Japanese? Not so long. Like I originally said, the whole talk from the beginning to the end takes less than a minute to recite, and without hurrying. I can definitely see it perfectly done, don't imagine I haven't considered everything before posting.

And then look at how much happens between the frames.  It seems like the actions should be taking a split second, while all that dialogue would take much longer.  It just doesn't seem to line up.

Like I said, I think the pacing is good. It corresponds to the fight, the two fighters gauging each other, aware of their mutual skills, taking stances and waiting for an opening to take down the opponent. Whatever though, if you don't like it, you don't. I'm not going to post pictures to try to explain it. :guts:

Um, aaz.  This is an ambush, by any definition of the word.  To say "they attacked the enemy camp by surprise" and not call it an ambush is a lack of understanding of the term.

No, sorry. It's sad but you're wrong, and you insist, too. It's not an ambush, read the definition you provided again. A surprise-attack isn't automatically an ambush, that's why they're not synonyms. The "lie-in-wait" part is important. If you can't understand the nuance, I can explain it to you by PM.

Basically, I was saying that "Morale" does play a part in how a person or more importantly a fighting force can perform, not that the hawks were losing.

And I didn't say it wasn't the case, just that skilled fighters with a low morale are still skilled fighters. Like I said, it doesn't relate.

That being said, nobody really developed as a result of this fight.

Silat developed, as you yourself admit below... It's shown in the manga, and it's used in the story, too. :schierke: Now that's a spoiler, I'd prefer if you didn't do that in the future, thanks. And Casca's understanding and faith in Guts' fighting skill is stressed when she tells Judo not to mind him, it's foreshadowing to the later evolution of their relationship. But yeah, the fight isn't vital to the plot's immediate progression. It's still cool, though. :badbone:

Offline Frog

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2005, 10:22:24 PM »
Well, if anything Guts is "more" superhuman

I'll concede that Guts is also super-human, even more than Silat.  The difference is that the author has managed to sell me on Guts as a character, I understand how he thinks and what he feels.  Silat, on the other hand, just seems like a mouthpiece for the author.  Most of his dialogue is just explaining what he's doing.  The character doesn't seem very well developed at all, in my opinion.

In Japanese? Not so long.

I guess in this case I'll have to take your word for it.

Whatever though, if you don't like it, you don't. I'm not going to post pictures to try to explain it. :guts:

Hopefully you can at least see where I'm coming from, now, even if we disagree.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2005, 10:31:39 PM »
Silat, on the other hand, just seems like a mouthpiece for the author.  Most of his dialogue is just explaining what he's doing.  The character doesn't seem very well developed at all, in my opinion.

He doesn't really say what he's doing actually, he just introduces his weapons, gives them fancy names and make threats. :guts: As for development, since the character was just introduced and made mysterious on purpose, he couldn't possibly be developed at the time...

Hopefully you can at least see where I'm coming from, now, even if we disagree.

Sure, I just don't think there are bases for it. :chomp:

Offline CnC

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2005, 10:34:57 PM »
Any continuation of this argument on my end would lead to possible spoilers (nearly had one already).  So I'll stop.
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Offline Jhot obs

Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2005, 01:48:36 AM »
After buying/reading volume 9, I"m excited about what's going to happen next in volume 10 (since I've never read this Berserk volume in any format). Silat reminds me of Dan from the Street Fighter series during his fights with Guts. Judging by how bad Guts made Silat look in both fights, I think it was Miura poking fun at the "advanced technique type-fighter" going against the seemingly simple muscle fighter like Guts and having Guts use Silat as toilet paper.

Love scenes at the start and end of this volume were beautifully handled. Particularly Guts breaking down about his first sexual experience to Casca. By the by, I never realized until then that Casca sure has a lot of junk in her truck. Guts should be so lucky. :guts:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2005, 02:02:18 AM »
Love scenes at the start and end of this volume were beautifully handled. Particularly Guts breaking down about his first sexual experience to Casca. By the by, I never realized until then that Casca sure has a lot of junk in her truck. Guts should be so lucky. :guts:

The love scene between Casca and Guts is probably one of my favorite moments.  The emotions are so natural and it shows how much depth there is to each character and that their love wasn't a simple fling.  The image where she falls onto Guts' back is one of the most heartfelt in the series, I think. :casca: :guts:

Offline Tenro

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2005, 02:44:28 PM »
Yeah, I really liked seeing Guts actually break down in that scene. For the first time (chronologically if not in the actual manga) we see some of the wear and tear on Guts' psyche from the life he's led.

He's kind of freaked out before, but nothing like this, and he just feels more human for it.

As entertaining as I find battles of semantics (no sarcasm, I really like that stuff), I'm kind of glad the two sides finally agreed to disagree. It's interesting how people can get totally different reactions to the same scene.
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Offline handsome rakshas

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2005, 02:27:43 AM »
Wow! I wish I would have kept an eye on this thread because there is so much heated discussion! And this is stuff that a noob like me can actually participate in! I am very excited!

Offline Malf

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2005, 03:37:40 AM »
Hey guys how you been, im sure some of you remember me. I did have a question and the only ones who can answer it are you guys :). Ive wonderd since the american release of Berserk and up to volume 10, is there any cut outs to the manga or severe changes from the original japanese version. scene wise I am refering to not minor tranlation changes. Thanks for your time

                                             Malf-

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2005, 03:47:27 AM »
Hey there Malf.

is there any cut outs to the manga or severe changes from the original japanese version.

Nope, otherwise people would indignantly complain about it here. :guts:

Offline Malf

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Re: Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2005, 09:09:10 PM »
Thanks a ton