Author Topic: How long will Guts survive  (Read 17137 times)

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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2001, 09:52:31 PM »

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Uh, Mozgus didn't kill the child


That's a technicality.


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Because her child *is* Griffith, remember?  At least, NOW he is...




yeah, I have a right to say "no shit sherlock" about now, since that's the exact point I made.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2001, 12:12:22 AM »
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That's a technicality.

Yeah, a correct technicality as opposed to misinformation. ;D (Being an ass is fun, fun, fun!!)
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yeah, I have a right to say "no shit sherlock" about now, since that's the exact point I made.

Maybe Cronus meant that it was Griffith that decided save her, not the child. †I can't speak for him, but I personally donít think the child has THAT MUCH sway over Griffith already, Griffith had to of at least wanted to save her as well.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2001, 12:36:44 AM »

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Yeah, a correct technicality as opposed to misinformation. ;D (Being an ass is fun, fun, fun!!)


-_-+

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Maybe Cronus meant that it was Griffith that decided save her, not the child.  I can't speak for him, but I personally donít think the child has THAT MUCH sway over Griffith already, Griffith had to of at least wanted to save her as well.

-Griffith


I dunno, I didn;t detect any sarcasm, but sometimes that doesn't carry over the internet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2001, 07:18:01 AM »

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I personally donít think the child has THAT MUCH sway over Griffith already, Griffith had to of at least wanted to save her as well.

???Isnt this what was just addressed? Well..all I have to say (or say _again_ as the case is) is:


Thats some sway in MY book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Cronus

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2001, 08:46:44 AM »
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yeah, I have a right to say "no shit sherlock" about now, since that's the exact point I made.

Sorry, I guess I read it wrong...my bad.

And I think that it wasn't ALL the child that made him do it...I think he still gives a poop about Casca, regardless.  But hey, i could be blatantly wrong...
All is within the flow of causality.

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2001, 02:15:09 PM »

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Sorry, I guess I read it wrong...my bad.


It happens.

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And I think that it wasn't ALL the child that made him do it...I think he still gives a poop about Casca, regardless.  But hey, i could be blatantly wrong...


I'm not saying he doesn't still have feelings for Casca. But I think they were dormant untill the child rekindled them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2001, 09:56:42 PM »
ok, now i know skull knight said that Guts is the one who can fight & survive, but how does that say that he's outside of causality? i think that could just as easily mean that Guts is simply fated to fight, or survive. though i'd like to know how the skull knight knows this about Guts...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2001, 10:29:58 PM »

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ok, now i know skull knight said that Guts is the one who can fight & survive, but how does that say that he's outside of causality? i think that could just as easily mean that Guts is simply fated to fight, or survive. though i'd like to know how the skull knight knows this about Guts...

Guts IS outside of Causality. There is no question about this. Guts being branded leaves him spiritually "dead".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2001, 06:19:43 AM »
has everyone forgot the fucking fish speach? The fucking fish. FISH MAN, FISH!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2001, 12:25:49 PM »
I didnt forget it, in fact i was going to include it in my last post here, but i didnt think it applied as much. Anyway "A mere jumping fish cannot disrupt the flow of the river"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Fletch

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2001, 12:42:03 PM »
i think everyone assumes that Guts escaped the eclipse, not because of fate or Idea's machinations, but because of sheer will to live and the intervention of the skull knight. clearly, Guts would not have escaped without these two factors, but, is that necessarily why he escaped? this is speculation, of course, as there's still conmparatively small evidence to support my view, but i think it's a definate possibility nonetheless. Idea is supposed to be nearly omniscient (my argument does hinge on this point, so i might be mistaken), so it seems to me that Guts could just as easily have been MEANT to escape, just as the skull knight could be meant to counter god hand. i don't think that Idea is able to be destroyed, or even opposed. i know it's been heavily implied otherwise, but by whom? are we to assume that the hand of god is also all knowing? i think that god hand only knows what Idea wants it to know, just as it appears that griffith hasn't recieved much information either. i'm actually a fan of Idea, though, so my opinions might seem odd, but i think there's some evidence to support me. anyway, let me know if there's something blatantly wrong with my argument, but i haven't seen anything in the manga to flatly contradict it yet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2001, 02:21:01 PM »

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i think everyone assumes that Guts escaped the eclipse, not because of fate or Idea's machinations, but because of sheer will to live and the intervention of the skull knight.

Guts escaped the eclipse because Skull Knight stepped in and saved the day. Even God Hand didnt predict it. They say "even though we are as Gods, we cannot forsee all paths. This is one of many possible paths."
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Idea is supposed to be nearly omniscient (my argument does hinge on this point, so i might be mistaken),

Idea is not omnicient. There is nothing that infers this. Idea simply manipulates humanity by forging men before they step foot on the earth. Men are destined to walk a certain path because Idea manipulated them from the very beginning. HOWEVER. Guts (in my opinion) survived, where he should have died. Why? Thats where the sheer will to live part comes in, and Idea must have overlooked it.

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it appears that griffith hasn't recieved much information either.

Griffith doesnt seem informed? ??? How so? So far hes doing pretty damned good if you ask me. He found armor, a horse, where Guts and Casca would be, infiltrated the Kushan army. Thats pretty damned informed. I think Griffith is aware of plenty of things we dont know about yet. He was once tied to causality.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2001, 03:35:21 PM »
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They say "even though we are as Gods, we cannot forsee all paths. This is one of many possible paths."


As you know, these "post-eclipse translations" aren't reliable... †:-/

"Foreseeing everything is impossible. After all, we're not God. Or was that one of the foreordained destinies as well?..."
... and it looks like Void knows if it was indeed foreordained or not... but he remains silent.

By the way, the Skull Knight didn't really say that Guts was _outside_ of the Causality. He said that now that Guts is branded and "between two worlds", he merely made a little step outside of the principles of the world. That's a bit different...
It looks like Guts_may_ go against Causality (and be a "jumping fish"), but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's been totally freed from it...

Also, in volume 20, the Skull Knight told Luca that the principles of the world may change because of Griffith's incarnation...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2001, 09:34:07 PM »

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... and it looks like Void knows if it was indeed foreordained or not... but he remains silent.

Wow...I never noticed that.

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Also, in volume 20, the Skull Knight told Luca that the principles of the world may change because of Griffith's incarnation...

I also never knew that
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Fishbomb

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2001, 06:41:57 AM »
I want to know japanese  :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline eintrigga

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2001, 11:19:18 AM »
Remember Skully also mentioned the fish thing in vol 17
He said something like Guts could be the fish that can disrupt the reflections of the lake (the mirror/shadow of the eclipse)....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2001, 12:08:30 PM »
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Remember Skully also mentioned the fish thing in vol 17


Well, yeah, we were talking about that, actually. ^_^;
(and it's in volume 18 ^^)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2001, 12:49:37 PM »
the inferences that a drew from Idea having the capability to forge mankind's destiny are thus: if Idea can successfully create a destiny for one man over the course of 1000 years (or even 100, it doesn't really matter for this point), that implies a great deal of foreknowledge. omniscience may be stretching it, but as he shaped and forged griffith from bloodlines over the millenia, could he not do with another? or countless others? indeed, wouldn't he _have_ to in order to assure that the world stage was ripe for the arrival of griffith, whom he intended to be femto & a conqueror? that's foreknowledge. again, not omniscience, but if you know enough to do such a thing, would it be too difficult to predict the actions of just one man? particularly one man whom is so close to your chosen "messiah?" indeed, as crucial as Guts has been to griffith, i find it difficult to believe that Guts wasn't part of Idea's plan for griffith, or the world. maybe Guts has defied expectations by living through the eclipse, but i somehow doubt it. all the players involved are people whom Idea would probably pay particular attention to. i would assume, but may be wrong, that Idea has pretty intimate knowledge of the skull knight, & at the least would track his movements. if Idea wanted Guts dead, he could've commanded griffith to kill him when the skull knight approached the occulation. that's my reasoning, anyway. that's assuming Idea has at least some limited multi-tasking abilities, however, which again, i infer from his aforementioned abilities. & that also assumes that Idea would insure the success of griffith's ascension by keeping an eye on the individuals with the power to interfere. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it's a fairly logical argument. granted, i think Guts is something special, there's no debating that. he's a man in a world of death, & yet he lives & has retained his passion & his dream. yes, he's branded, & yet he lives on.  there is no debate as to the strength of Guts, or that he has a unique role in the berserk universe. however, why could that role not be planned for? i dunno, i think Guts might eventually break with causality, but i think it'll be at some future point. i think Guts has a specific destiny, but breaking with it will come later, at the finale.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Eclips

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2001, 03:21:44 PM »
If SK hates God Hand, how does he perceive the current rise of griffith?? does he want to destroy griffith and his dream???seeing it like the will of god hand??


maybe he doesnt want god hand to do to griffith what they did to gaiseric



i think he knows Guts is outside casualty and CAN obliterate griffiths dream,


maybe he seeks those who are outside of casualty , like himself, to aid him , indirectly or not, to destroy god hands will


thats why †i think SK has been helping Guts out ever since he became branded and uninfluenceble by god hand
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Asir

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2001, 09:24:26 AM »
I think the same as Walter about the nature of the Idea, not they can consider it as "God" in our concepts, as the said, is not omniciente neither omnipotente, but well, the Idea, is something asi as done Feelings form, collected life and conscience and accion, is the union of all the human fears along them you were that they have been accumulated thanks to the wars and castatrofes natural, saidIn another form is like a psique collective, Naturally to survive, needs the feelings but common in the human beings, we say, that the angeles they complement those fears.

Void: to be able

Slan: lujuria or desire (this is not denied)

Ubik: cruelty (by its aspect the word "sadism" is hit me but to its nature

Conrad: vanity (but well as itself diria to the afan excessive of knowledge)

Femto: ambicion (someone not this deacuerdo?)


in if, Idea as the I empty, simply represents the desesperacion total of the man, when is felt lost completely against the world that surrounds it and the events that they control them, Idea, controls the desires humanods to be able to follow existing and to enlarge its influence, as they say, the can manipulate the destiny of the men as of controlling what they desire and they fear, the idea is the same fear,ignorance if we want it to see but filosoficamente and the Skullknight, podria to be the heretic, the one that is opposed to the order, in other words Skullknight represents to the ANARQUIA, the event that tries destuir to all the order established and Gatt, is one of those elements (the concept of will is what podria to represent to Gatt) If the Idea manipulates and controls the human beings, Ņnot to be possible that the humans do the same thing with the Idea?




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline White Hawk

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2001, 10:08:19 AM »
We re all talkin casuality, the flow of karma, but no one seems to notice an interesting yet crappy character. Lucca, the nice whore that was saved by Skully K. I really don't know hat happened to her since I've red only until chapter 164 or somethin(italian version), but why does Skully save her and asks all those funny questions like "could she be...". My point is, all this demon existence is taken for granted, but clearly Miura does imply that there is a god in the series. "the God that was not made by Humans". All this demonic activity passing without god doing anything? And maybe that "God made not by humans" is really evil, since it started the whole prophecy about the "hawk of light" which is actually a big screw up, since Guts is the hawk of light.
Maybe there are saints as well as monstaz, and Lucca is some sort of paladin (BOOOM!!!).

Guts, in the end, will surely DIE. It can't finish otherwise. The Chapters of"The Golden Age" are his happiest times in life, beyond which he won't go as we see only BAD really BAD things happen to him.

che sara sara,
but not thanx to karma
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2001, 11:04:42 AM »
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why does Skully save her and asks all those funny questions like "could she be...".


That scene doesn't necessaritly have deep meaning.
The Skull Knight was probably just surprised at her going back to the Tower, and was wondering why she did that: foolishness, or... something else?
I don't know about you all, but I think that Luca is probably the "strongest" character of the series... ^^;

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My point is, all this demon existence is taken for granted, but clearly Miura does imply that there is a god in the series.


He _showed_ that god, in volume 13.

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"the God that was not made by Humans". All this demonic activity passing without god doing anything? And maybe that "God made not by humans" is really evil,

Of course, he's evil. He's the _Idea_ of Evil. †;D
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since it started the whole prophecy about the "hawk of light" which is actually a big screw up, since Guts is the hawk of light.

There's _absolutely nothing_ about Guts being the Falcon of Light, so far.
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Guts, in the end, will surely DIE. It can't finish otherwise.

Why not?

Offline Walter

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2001, 01:30:38 PM »
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Guts, in the end, will surely DIE. It can't finish otherwise. The Chapters of"The Golden Age" are his happiest times in life, beyond which he won't go as we see only BAD really BAD things happen to him.


Geez dude...thats seriously really, really depressing. And I SO do not think that is how things are going to end up. Guts might have had good times back then, but why should it end in tragedy?

For three years (chronologically) Guts fought against demons and jackass humans, for what? SO that he could be at peace; his revenge taken. Since then, he has come to realize that without Casca, the most important person in his life, he can't really achieve anything. He cannot abandon her. Guts has more direction now, and he is growing and changing. There is MUCH to be developed in the future of Berserk. HELL the biggest plot twist in the series just happened (well...second biggest) the story is going in a completely different direction now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline White Hawk

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2001, 07:26:34 AM »
Well, I kinda got the feeling in (damn I m at work and I don't have the mangas with me!!!).
Please, ppl, I sense a strong tone of negativity here.... I DO ADORE THE SERIES, you know.
But it's just that, this cannot end happily, it wouldn't be miura. When the skull knight saved lucca i puked from cheesiness. What is this superhero saving maiden drama? But then, after he pondered upon her destiny, it did sound like there's a rat hiding in that lil speech.
And Guts....i regulary cry reading the manga. That sounds overrated, but folx that know would never believe that.  8)
but screw that...

i don't want Guts to die either, but I just keep having this feeling lately, that the last sword on the graveyard of swords is going to be... :'( :'(
the dragonslayer :'( :'( :'( :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline White Hawk

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Re: How long will Guts survive
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2001, 11:40:25 AM »
I state such thing cuz I don't think Guts will become a supernatural anyway, for he probably has something super in him already (wielding the dragonslayer). Furthermor, Guts REALLY hates apostoles. He once said that beherit's are for weak ppl that wish to becom strong so they ask angels for help. That s why i said griffis was weak. He indeed asked for the wings of darkness, to fly him to the castle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Sometimes the wings of fallen dragons refuse to give up the sky.