Author Topic: Episode 283  (Read 47095 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2007, 07:59:07 AM »
I don't think it's a question of him being weak.. it's a question of timing/strategy. If there is one thing we know about Griffith, it is that everything is done for a reason.
Still, I find it annoying that Griffith didn't just take him out when he easily had the ability.

Uriel is right. There are strategic reasons for his choice, like we've been saying for a few pages. Don't forget what Griffith is. Who he's in league with. Don't mistake his pretense to clueless people in the story for his real goals.

Offline MaN

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2007, 08:41:16 PM »
Meh. Anticlimatic --> lets drag this as along as possible. I was hoping to see get his butt kicked at least even if he survived.
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Offline pippin22

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2007, 09:05:11 PM »
Meh. Anticlimatic --> lets drag this as along as possible. I was hoping to see get his butt kicked at least even if he survived.

Check out Pokemon, every episode is action packed.

Offline Cruella

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2007, 10:10:08 PM »
I do not think that Miura is above criticism, but to get rid of Ganishka right now, after all the build up, would be somewhat anti-climatic.
If Griff cannot kill Gani now, he did the best possible thing. Any extra "butt kicking" could be costly. Right now, there is no real loss of warpower, and very impressive result to shock nobles.
As long as story makes sense I am satisfied.
Now the wait for big showdown begins... gonna be painful. I am rereading past volumes to satisfy my berserk obsession.

Offline sarahofborg

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2007, 10:50:10 PM »
I still agree with the anti-climatic-ness. I mean, Ganishka looked so weak at that moment I bet any random human soldier could have easily taken him out. Griffith just doesn't seem to be the type to let a great opportunity be wasted, unless it's for an even greater opportunity. Thing is, I don't doubt Miura, I just get disappointed and hope/expect he'll make up for it somehow :) I'm sure there must be a good reason for putting this off. I don't think he's just looking for an excuse to put off the inevitable. We just don't know that reason yet.

But I confess I do believe that Berserk is starting to resemble a very typical shonen formula of: hero gets stronger on a regular basis, finds people to protect, they distract and prevent him from his true goal of defeating the villain, and the villain stays tantalizingly far away from the action. If it's like shonen than Guts will never come close to defeating Griffith, Griffith will never loose or gain any more power than he already has, and Casca will never be safe without Guts.
I hope/expect it doesn't turn out that way because Berserk is just too good for that.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2007, 10:59:28 PM »
Man... some people watch too much anime. This reeks of brainwashing.
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Offline Cruella

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2007, 11:02:46 PM »
Quote
I mean, Ganishka looked so weak at that moment I bet any random human soldier could have easily taken him out.
I bet not.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2007, 11:07:42 PM »
I do not think that Miura is above criticism

He's certainly above whatever criticism people like MaN or sarahofborg can come up with.

Ganishka looked so weak at that moment I bet any random human soldier could have easily taken him out.

Guess you're wrong then? Ganishka is an apostle and a sorcerer. Do not get carried away because of Griffith's power.

Griffith just doesn't seem to be the type to let a great opportunity be wasted, unless it's for an even greater opportunity.

Well who says there isn't more at stake than we know?

I confess I do believe that Berserk is starting to resemble a very typical shonen formula

No offense, but maybe you should re-read the series then because I really don't think your belief is well-founded.

Offline Aeglos

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #133 on: February 24, 2007, 11:34:42 PM »
I think defeating Ganishka at Wyndham serves Griffith a lot more than over there at the plains of Vritannis, plot-wise and Character-wise... thus the delay of the battle.
He has Charlotte AND the Pontiff... since his goal is to get a Kingdom of his own, it makes more sense to defeat the Kushan at the place where he CAN be named ruler, both using his past fame, and the heir Charlotte, plus the Pontiff to appoint him as such. If I recall correctly, it was not uncommon for the Church to appoint and approve Kings in the middle ages. And since he would liberate the city and save all the common people, they would never object to him climbing to the throne.
It all adds to Griffith's master show-off plan  :griff:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2007, 11:46:18 PM »
I think defeating Ganishka at Wyndham serves Griffith a lot more than over there at the plains of Vritannis, plot-wise and Character-wise... thus the delay of the battle.
He has Charlotte AND the Pontiff... since his goal is to get a Kingdom of his own, it makes more sense to defeat the Kushan at the place where he CAN be named ruler, both using his past fame, and the heir Charlotte, plus the Pontiff to appoint him as such. If I recall correctly, it was not uncommon for the Church to appoint and approve Kings in the middle ages. And since he would liberate the city and save all the common people, they would never object to him climbing to the throne.

You're completely right of course, but it's not even just that. Disposing of the whole Kushan army at Vritannis would be a huge hassle for the Hawks with outsiders watching closely. A chaotic battle wouldn't benefit them at all. And they couldn't handle Ganishka cleanly and without problems either apparently. When you think about it, Griffith said the truth in this episode: for the both of them it's preferable to end the battle in Wyndham. It gives Ganishka another chance, starting the battle anew with the possibility to use all his resources and in a defensive configuration instead of an offensive one, and for Griffith it's the perfect set up to get his kingdom and it should allow him to use his demon soldiers unrestrained as well as (maybe) some of his own powers (the "storm" Locus mentioned in episode 230?). Not to mention that he could destroy the main force of the Kushans all at once too, without possibility for them to escape as they'd be facing a siege.

It's really the most fitting place for the grand finale and the establishment of Falconia.

Offline sarahofborg

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2007, 12:03:16 AM »
He's certainly above whatever criticism people like MaN or sarahofborg can come up with.

Guess you're wrong then? Ganishka is an apostle and a sorcerer. Do not get carried away because of Griffith's power.

Well who says there isn't more at stake than we know?

No offense, but maybe you should re-read the series then because I really don't think your belief is well-founded.

Well, you can believe I'm wrong, I don't mind. I probably am, only because Miura's word is gospel. I'm not saying Miura himself is wrong, just that this is a change from what I thought was going on before.
And I literally finished rereading the entire manga yesterday. I'm not an expert on Berserk (in comparison to people on this board at least) but I've read the same physical thing you've read.

I'm not so much criticizing Miura. I'm merely expressing my own confusion with his story. The majority of people here think I'm wrong, so be it. I only change my mind when I'm convinced. You don't have to bother to convince me if you really think I'm wrong. I'll just take your opinion into consideration, and in time I'll probably agree. I just don't change my mind very quickly. The only reason I said anything at all was because I felt there were people who agreed with me, whether they're willing to speak or not. Maybe I was wrong.

I knew people wouldn't like it when I said berserk has characteristics that are similar to shonen (and what exists that doesn't?), but I hope you just don't take that too seriously. It's just an observation, and if you don't agree that's fine. Don't assume I'm an idiot because I have a different view from yours, and I won't judge you the same.

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2007, 12:18:36 AM »
sarahofborg, I'm not even going to argue your first paragraph, as I feel it has already been dealt with well enough.

But I confess I do believe that Berserk is starting to resemble a very typical shonen formula of: hero gets stronger on a regular basis,
How has Guts gotten stronger? From where I'm looking, it's almost the opposite. His body is falling apart. He's already got a patch of gray hair, he's lost a noticeable amount of weight, and worst of all: he can't give into his rage without risking the lives of everyone around him (look back to volume 16 or so, when he nearly killed Jill when he was enraged, but snapped out of it just in time to save her. He can't do that as long as he's wearing the Berserk's Armor.).

finds people to protect,
First, it was only one person: Casca.
And almost immediately afterwards, he found that he needed people to protect her from himself... Which, he almost immediately found. Farnese will protect Casca, Serpico will protect Farnese, and Schierke will protect all of them from Guts. It's not as if they would die if he suddenly ditched them. (unless of course they were surrounded by makara)

they distract and prevent him from his true goal of defeating the villain,
but, by doing so, ensure that he will live long enough to face the villain.
Guts' guts ( :guts: ) will be the end of him. If Serpico hadn't stopped Guts after he slashed Ganishka, he'd most likely have been torn apart by the apostles.

and the villain stays tantalizingly far away from the action.
It's true that Griffith will be out of his reach until the very end of the story. However, that's just how it has to be. That isn't some "shonen" stereotype, it's something that the longevity of the story is dependent upon. The story may as well end once Guts manages to get his vengeance.


I may have an answer for why you think it is beginning to turn into a shonen, though:
Quote from: wikipedia
Shōnen [...] is a Japanese word used in English to refer to anime and manga primarily intended for boys
[...]
In contrast to shōnen, anime and manga for men (university age and up) is called seinen. Despite a number of significant differences, many Western fans don't make a distinction between shōnen and seinen.

God bless wikipedia.
Quote
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2007, 12:19:03 AM »
Well, you can believe I'm wrong, I don't mind. I probably am, only because Miura's word is gospel.

No, you are wrong because what you're saying isn't true... Simple as that.

I'm not an expert on Berserk (in comparison to people on this board at least) but I've read the same physical thing you've read.

Actually I don't think you've read the same physical thing, no. :guts:

I'm not so much criticizing Miura. I'm merely expressing my own confusion with his story.

Oh, I know. It's pretty obvious you're confused from what you said, which is why I told you I think you should re-read the story, maybe taking your time, more carefully, I don't know. Basing yourself on unreliable material doesn't help unfortunately.

I knew people wouldn't like it when I said berserk has characteristics that are similar to shonen (and what exists that doesn't?), but I hope you just don't take that too seriously. It's just an observation, and if you don't agree that's fine. Don't assume I'm an idiot because I have a different view from yours, and I won't judge you the same.

What you said didn't make much sense, and it was just not true for the most part, only the manifestation of a profound misunderstanding of the series and its evolution, accompanied with the resulting speculation. Since this is most likely a problem that's specific to you and since this thread isn't the place for such a discussion I'd rather not pursue it here though, but feel free to PM me about it if you want. I don't think anyone's taking what you said seriously, but since it's so glaringly wrong and uncalled for you've got to expect a reaction. As for assumptions and how random people on the Internet judge me, that's really the least of my concerns.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2007, 11:50:26 AM »
Meh. Anticlimatic --> lets drag this as along as possible. I was hoping to see get his butt kicked at least even if he survived.

A sterling literary analysis written in barely literate fashion; I hope to see keep posting as along as possible at least even if worthless. =)

Speaking of which, I caught the beginning of The Princess Bride on TV tonight, and something about it was very familiar, it reminded me of the board somehow...


Offline Zerk Fan

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2007, 05:00:17 AM »
As for limiting Ganishka's form in fog as spiritual ... I'll admit I've only become more confused about the transformation process and the source of the fog after recent events. But I don't think I'm alone. Let's walk through it, shall we?

Up until now, it's been a popular and well-defended argument that Ganishka's fog form was a projection of his astral body utilizing surrounding elements. Schierke backed this up during the assault in Vritannis and by the fact Ganishka's body was in a seperate place by the end of the battle, with a visible scar.

But ... there are some anomalies with this. One, for that to work 100%, Ganishka's appearance in front of the Hawks' Lancers would have to have been composed of fog all along (very very intricate fog), AND the same thing goes for the Ganishka as seen through the majority of ep 282, since he instantly transforms into the fog form once again.

However, this recent transformation was done without any surrounding mist/fog, in an enclosed environment, inferring he can transform into fog at will, regardless of surrounding elements.

Will the real Ganishka please stand up?

I'm confused or stupid :casca: , Could Ganishka just be a "magic fog decoy" this Episode... is that the secret he was talking about?
If not how is Griffith going to off him later if he really couldn't this time?

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2007, 05:02:09 AM »
These are questions we don't have answers to. But from the stakes that will be on the table Griffith is hinting at in Wyndham, I think it's relatively safe to assume it'll be THE final showdown - regardless of whatever wacky mist physics/decoys crop up.
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Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2007, 05:04:00 AM »
What if.... Before the reincarnation of Griffith that Ganishka was limited to only using his Fog Form when certain conditions were met? With the Reincarnation happening and layers of the universe merging, would it be possible that things are getting easier to manipulate and thus what ever energies are getting created are being used to do this technique? MAGIC FOG!  :isidro:

Just a random thought.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2007, 05:26:42 AM »
I think that's really a stretch of the imagination with what we know of the consequences of the worlds merging.

The merging directly affects the more frequent appearance of creatures like Trolls, Kelpie, Ogre etc. It also, if not in conjunction with the former, made the Qliphoth directly accessible. I don't necessarily think that directly affects the formation and makeup of fog or magic. Otherwise, I think we would have heard of it by now - with Schierke being a magic user and all...
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Offline Aeglos

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2007, 05:41:31 AM »
Quote from: Waler
But ... there are some anomalies with this. One, for that to work 100%, Ganishka's appearance in front of the Hawks' Lancers would have to have been composed of fog all along (very very intricate fog), AND the same thing goes for the Ganishka as seen through the majority of ep 282, since he instantly transforms into the fog form once again.

However, this recent transformation was done without any surrounding mist/fog, in an enclosed environment, inferring he can transform into fog at will, regardless of surrounding elements.

Has anyone noticed that Ganishka's mouth seems to release fog as breath many times during his appearances? Perhaps he is something like a fog-factory himself (part of his apostle power?)... he could have learned how to use it in conjunction with his magic to form the fog simulacrum and various other tricks, thus he simple chose to use fog as part of his imperial weaponry.

That would explain how he instantly assumed his fog form in 282 and back at the Demon City, by realeasing huge amounts of it which could be stored inside his body for his personal use.
Farfetched, I know... but it strikes me as odd that he usually starts breathing fog when he becomes exited for some reason. Also his armor and mouth seemed to be leaking fog when Griffith confronted him at 282.
..En tru... st...

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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2007, 07:02:20 AM »
I can't believe no one's mentioned that VRITANNIS IS SAVED!!!!!  :isidro:  :badbone:  :isidro:  :troll:  :serpico:

Hell, I think it's a big deal. This battle's been alluded to as early as episode 191 - 5 years ago (5 years ago last week, to be exact). Looks like the Vandimion family legacy is secure for now, and all those worthless nobles were allowed to live... again, for now.  :griff:

With Griff's intervention, one of the more popular theories about the timing of his entrance in this battle was squashed. We had assumed he may let the Kushan forces wipe their ass with the Holy See Alliance, and then play clean-up duty on aisle Vritannis - getting rid of two annoying birds with one stone. But as we should have expected, he's playing the real hero here. Drawing the enemy to a contained location and finishing him off without (so far anyway) involving human armies.
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Offline Death May Die

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2007, 12:01:04 PM »
I really don't think Ganishka is going to be much trouble. I don't think Griffith is sweating over him too much either. Think likely Griffith is going to win over smaller fighting forces and than attack Ganishka and his forces. Patience.

Offline The Lamb

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2007, 04:55:08 PM »
Maybe Griffith chose to save Vritannis because now he can sway the nobles to his side, so that when the Pope hails him as a Messiah and passes on all his papal powers, no one will be able to argue. So he could be King of Midland, Pope and touched with something divine - all at once.
Or maybe not, but I think there's strategy behind saving Vritannis now, and pulling in the Pope in such a rush (sounds like a euphemism).

Offline Darwyn

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2007, 06:45:02 PM »
Man..I really don't know how the heck Guts is going to kill Griffith and his minions. Every episode, there just seems to be less and less hope.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2007, 08:42:54 PM »
Man..I really don't know how the heck Guts is going to kill Griffith and his minions. Every episode, there just seems to be less and less hope.

I really don't see where people are coming from with that point of view, it's almost backward to me; as things have developed, it's actually gotten much more plausible that Guts possibly has the resources at his disposal to hurt Griffith. There's pertinent information and foreshadowing all over the place on the subject, and we haven't even seen what awaits in Elfhelm.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2007, 02:31:48 AM »
I really don't see where people are coming from with that point of view, it's almost backward to me; as things have developed, it's actually gotten much more plausible that Guts possibly has the resources at his disposal to hurt Griffith. There's pertinent information and foreshadowing all over the place on the subject, and we haven't even seen what awaits in Elfhelm.
If Guts' weapon or Guts in general has the means to hurt Griffith, why doesn't Skullknight just swoop in all quick like and do it? We have seen thus far that he has much more experiencing utilizing his weapon in a way that Guts at this time cannot. I'm sure he could find a way to get by Griffith's apostle Lieutenants to get to him.
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