Author Topic: Episode 283  (Read 47820 times)

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Offline LordofMasks

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2007, 07:50:45 PM »
Ganishka receives the scar in Episode 277, as a result of Guts' and Zodd's combined attack.

Thank you very much. But I was 1 year away from this board...so I missed a lot.
Well, yes this brings a totally new point of view, if Ganishka was allready wounded by someone different that Griffith then it is more than obvious that it will be a childs play for Griffith to take out Ganishka.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2007, 08:11:21 PM »
Just look at what Griffith did to all those Apostle that got in the way of him focusing on Skull Knight during the Eclipse.  With just a wave of his hand he crushed them all.

They weren't in the way... He just missed Skull Knight.

Any thoughts on Silats role in this? I'm sure Miura has him looking on for a reason. But I'm not sure if we'll see him join Griffith's side, or be flee from the both armies with the Tapasa. I suppose it depends on how Griffith goes about defeating Ganishka.

I agree with what some have said in that I think Silat is meant to be his own faction. He has his clan, his goals, his means. I do see him joining up with Guts' band eventually, but not fully integrating it, more like a joining of forces against a common enemy. He's the one that'll live under Griffith's rule in this changing world while Guts & co are off to paradise island. He'll be there to witness the horror, and in fact is already doing it (has been for a while since Griffith's incarnation).

I doubt Silat's groupies will be along for the ride.  I think they will be slaughtered while allowing to Silat to escape whatever fate tries to befall them as a whole.

We've seen so little of them, it'd really be a waste IMO.

I think and hope that the story will come to an end within the next 10 Volumes. I said hope because it has taken almost ten years if not more to get to 31 Vol. and waiting another 10 years for the end would be too much.

It's taken 17 years to get to 31 volumes, and it's not going to end within 10 volumes from now. That's not even up for discussion really.

I was surprised to see Ganishka go fog form again so soon.  I think the wound to the forehead would have more effect than just a scar.  I would go as far as to speculate that is going to play a part in this episode.

I think this is related to Griffith's very power. The shot in which Ganishka sees him with his "magical vision" is what makes me say that among other things. I believe Griffith can affect Ganishka's spiritual self, which in this case takes the form of the fog. This reminds me of Schierke's comment about the danger of getting close to him while in her astral form in volume 22.

Since Ganishka has already taken his fog-form and this seems to be his greatest battle ever, I somehow feel that it's unlikely for us to see any physical apostle-form of him. Maybe his fog-appearance is already a magical pimped version of his apostle-transformation.

At this point it's possible we won't see any other form yeah, but that still seems a little unlikely to me. It'd feel somehow incomplete to me if that was just the end of it. Anyway, anything is still possible, for example Griffith could "blow the fog away," meaning suppress Ganishka's magic, leaving him with no choice but to fight with what he has left.

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2007, 08:36:00 PM »
Quote
They weren't in the way... He just missed Skull Knight.

The fact remains that it was such a small display of power that annhilated all that were in the way of it, due to him "missing" SK.



Guts was able to dissipate Ganishka's fog with the DS.  I wouldn't be surprised if Griffith, with all his godly powers couldn't do the same.  Griffith will most likely cast aside Ganishka's wall of fog and make him transform to take him on. And like how all Apostles return to their human form before acquiring their power, Griffith will be able to present his head as a victory without causing a comotion over what Ganishka really was.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2007, 09:57:04 PM »
Well, yes this brings a totally new point of view, if Ganishka was allready wounded by someone different that Griffith then it is more than obvious that it will be a childs play for Griffith to take out Ganishka.

The shot in which Ganishka sees him with his "magical vision" is what makes me say that among other things. I believe Griffith can affect Ganishka's spiritual self, which in this case takes the form of the fog. This reminds me of Schierke's comment about the danger of getting close to him while in her astral form in volume 22.
Damned good call. Was thinking something similar with the magic vision thing ... wish there was a better phrase for it though.
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Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2007, 11:21:50 PM »
I think Miura's been chiseling Silat's character into a member of Guts' Band for years now. He's setup to be opposed to all these demonic rulers over humanity, just as Guts is. I think this may be one of the final straws for him.
I know you probably don't hold my opinions very high, but here one is anyway.

I think they'll have the same goals by the end of the series, but I doubt that Silat will join Guts' band, at least not like Farnese and the others have.
Silat has his own clan and his own reasons to fight, and the only reason he would have any use for Guts is for his power and his experience with fighting apostles; while those currently with him are following him for more personal reasons.
At some point, Silat may help Guts, but I doubt that Silat will join Guts' band.
However, I think the reverse may just happen, depending on what happens in Midland while Guts and crew are off to Elfhelm.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2007, 01:14:50 AM »
I think they'll have the same goals by the end of the series, but I doubt that Silat will join Guts' band, at least not like Farnese and the others have.
Silat has his own clan and his own reasons to fight, and the only reason he would have any use for Guts is for his power and his experience with fighting apostles...

So, basically, you're saying:
I agree with what some have said in that I think Silat is meant to be his own faction. He has his clan, his goals, his means. I do see him joining up with Guts' band eventually, but not fully integrating it, more like a joining of forces against a common enemy.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2007, 01:19:49 AM »
Well, yes this brings a totally new point of view, if Ganishka was allready wounded by someone different that Griffith then it is more than obvious that it will be a childs play for Griffith to take out Ganishka.

Actually, I don't think that was even true last week, guys. :carcus:

Just someone else? Ganishka didn't exactly get punched out by the town drunk. Whatever the case may be between Griffith and Ganishka, Guts' power doesn't reflect Griffith's like that; it's apples and oranges. For one thing, they're literally opposing forces, Griffith's power is of an "evil" nature, like Ganishka's, and the Dragon Slayer is specifically adapted to hurt creatures of that nature, or astral creatures at least. It hurt Slan too, afterall. And by extension, it's also adapted to hurt Griffith, if that's even possible (I have a hunch... =).

Anyway, I don't think Guts' ability to hurt Ganishka demonstrates anything about Griffith's, just doesn't relate.

I agree with what some have said in that I think Silat is meant to be his own faction. He has his clan, his goals, his means. I do see him joining up with Guts' band eventually, but not fully integrating it, more like a joining of forces against a common enemy. He's the one that'll live under Griffith's rule in this changing world while Guts & co are off to paradise island. He'll be there to witness the horror, and in fact is already doing it (has been for a while since Griffith's incarnation).

I know you probably don't hold my opinions very high, but here one is anyway.

I think they'll have the same goals by the end of the series, but I doubt that Silat will join Guts' band, at least not like Farnese and the others have.
Silat has his own clan and his own reasons to fight, and the only reason he would have any use for Guts is for his power and his experience with fighting apostles; while those currently with him are following him for more personal reasons.
At some point, Silat may help Guts, but I doubt that Silat will join Guts' band.
However, I think the reverse may just happen, depending on what happens in Midland while Guts and crew are off to Elfhelm.

This is probably one of the reasons why he wouldn't hold your opinions in very high regard. =)

Edit: Wally, since you leapfrogged my commentary on "Dirty Dog's opinion" while I was adding that reply to lordoftheringsisawesome, I'm lumping you in with him. You're both in Adam Corolla Hell.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2007, 01:33:34 AM »
Actually, I don't think that was even true last week, guys. =)

Anyway, I don't think Guts' ability to hurt Ganishka demonstrates anything about Griffith's, just doesn't relate.
Well, the quote I posted the image to wasn't the best-chosen, I'll admit. All I meant was the guy should probably already have known Ganishka was wounded by Guts and Zodd's teamup.

But, if only to play the devil's advocate, I'll bite, and argue that Guts' ability to damage Ganishka DOES relate, if indirectly, to Griffith's potential ability to damage him.  When you break it down, the key to the DS' success in the attack was its ability to strike at the spiritual form of Ganishka. I can't think of anyone, Schierke excepted, that could "touch" (read: CLEAVE) a spiritual form other than Griffith, who's already proven his ability to manipulate spirits in ep 195.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2007, 01:46:35 AM »
Well, the quote I posted the image to wasn't the best-chosen, I'll admit. All I meant was the guy should probably already have known Ganishka was wounded by Guts and Zodd's teamup.

COMPLICIT!!!

But, if only to play the devil's advocate, I'll bite, and argue that Guts' ability to damage Ganishka DOES relate, if indirectly, to Griffith's potential ability to damage him.  When you break it down, the key to the DS' success in the attack was its ability to strike at the spiritual form of Ganishka. I can't think of anyone, Schierke excepted, that could "touch" (read: CLEAVE) a spiritual form other than Griffith, who's already proven his ability to manipulate spirits in ep 195.

Slan? ANY powerful magic user (since you threw Schierke in there)? =)

That's sort of arbitrary way of qualifying it considering we know it's not as simple as spiritual/non-spiritual forms, they have other individual properties, like elements. And let's say Guts had failed to hurt Ganishka, like Zodd had; that wouldn't have made any difference concerning Griffith's chances to hurt him, because he'd be able to for a different reason altogether (he's his boss =).

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2007, 01:54:04 AM »
Say Guts had failed to hurt Ganishka, like Zodd had; that wouldn't have made any difference concerning Griffith's chances to hurt him, just for a different reason.
Oh, I agree that Griffith likely has a wide assortment of ways to damage Ganishka, one of his MINIONS. I just think damaging Ganish's spiritual form is a good possibility, since we've already seen that card played - and how effective it was.

As for limiting Ganishka's form in fog as spiritual ... I'll admit I've only become more confused about the transformation process and the source of the fog after recent events. But I don't think I'm alone. Let's walk through it, shall we?

Up until now, it's been a popular and well-defended argument that Ganishka's fog form was a projection of his astral body utilizing surrounding elements. Schierke backed this up during the assault in Vritannis and by the fact Ganishka's body was in a seperate place by the end of the battle, with a visible scar.

But ... there are some anomalies with this. One, for that to work 100%, Ganishka's appearance in front of the Hawks' Lancers would have to have been composed of fog all along (very very intricate fog), AND the same thing goes for the Ganishka as seen through the majority of ep 282, since he instantly transforms into the fog form once again.

However, this recent transformation was done without any surrounding mist/fog, in an enclosed environment, inferring he can transform into fog at will, regardless of surrounding elements.

Will the real Ganishka please stand up?
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2007, 02:37:36 AM »
Oh, I agree that Griffith likely has a wide assortment of ways to damage Ganishka, one of his MINIONS. I just think damaging Ganish's spiritual form is a good possibility, since we've already seen that card played - and how effective it was.

My point wasn't whether Ganishka's spiritual form will be attacked or not, but how. My point being I don't think the nature of the DS is representative of the nature of Griffith's abilities. It relates in the broad sense that it shows Ganishka isn't invulnerable, but had Guts failed, it wouldn't have said anything about Griffith's chances.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2007, 02:38:45 AM »
My point wasn't whether Ganishka's spiritual form will be attacked or not, but how. My point being I don't think the nature of the DS is representative of the nature of Griffith's abilities. It relates in the broad sense that it shows Ganishka isn't invulnerable, but had Guts failed, it wouldn't have said anything about Griffith's chances.
Agree totally.
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Offline vlad

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2007, 05:28:55 AM »
Will the real Ganishka please stand up?
This whole business got me wandering as to where would his "real" body be. I mean, going by episode 277, the fog is a projection and he is elsewhere, would he risk coming in person or is this just a trick of some sort, akin to the thing in Wyndham (whatever it was). The bed we see him in, in episode 277 could really be anywhere (the carriage, Wyndham, back in Kushan teritory even). Not sure weather it will matter much in the end since Griffith will probably be able to influence (to say the least) whatever aspect of his being this fog form is.   

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2007, 05:56:58 AM »
So, basically, you're saying:
This is probably one of the reasons why he wouldn't hold your opinions in very high regard. =)

yeah, essentially I was saying what Aaz said.
Sort of like I said a couple of days ago here, although changed a little.
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Offline Aeglos

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2007, 06:58:08 AM »
This whole business got me wandering as to where would his "real" body be. I mean, going by episode 277, the fog is a projection and he is elsewhere, would he risk coming in person or is this just a trick of some sort, akin to the thing in Wyndham (whatever it was). The bed we see him in, in episode 277 could really be anywhere (the carriage, Wyndham, back in Kushan teritory even). Not sure weather it will matter much in the end since Griffith will probably be able to influence (to say the least) whatever aspect of his being this fog form is.   

If he isn't in the mobile fortress, and it's just a simple trick/projection/illusion, then why would Griffith approach, address and confront a fake Ganishka? As he is dealing with one of his/theirs (God Hand's) apostle underlings, he would surely know if the emperor was not there at all... he is a demigod after all...  :void:

Ganishka wouldn't be so afraid if he were a simple illusion either.

I haven't read it anywhere, but what about Ganishka fleeing the scene? He seems to be quite fast to move/flow while in fog form... there's the issue of him being perhaps to proud to flee (and whether if he can escape); surrendering to the Hawk would both be in contradiction with all that he is, and defeat his purpose of being Griffith's key to his goals. So he can A) either attempt to escape, or B) Die.

Reminds me of master Tang in Kung Pow. "Should have gone with A) ..."  :troll:
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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2007, 07:17:24 AM »
This is where I was headed with my post. Clearly even if the Ganishka in the palanquin is "only" an illusion, some of the damage he'll sustained will be transferred over to his actual body, as evidenced in 277. Maybe it will be damage of a sort that it won't make a difference whether he's there in reality or not.
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Offline Serpico

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2007, 08:37:08 AM »
Wow, Awesome preview. We get to see Serpico vs. Ganishka at last! It seems Griffith's defeat is also implied here (how else would Serpico have taken Griffiths armor and scalped his hair to use as a wig?)

With his wind magic so strong he could literally fly all the way back to the battle I don't think Ganishka stands a chance.  :troll:

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2007, 08:53:13 AM »
Wow, Awesome preview. We get to see Serpico vs. Ganishka at last! It seems Griffith's defeat is also implied here (how else would Serpico have taken Griffiths armor and scalped his hair to use as a wig?)

With his wind magic so strong he could literally fly all the way back to the battle I don't think Ganishka stands a chance.  :troll:

You have to be the most special guy here, Serpico. :griff:




@Walter and Aeglos: What if Ganishka is actually still sitting on his throne back in the Kushan Empire? :isidro: :troll:
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Offline Aeglos

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2007, 03:51:04 PM »
Yeah, had forgotten about the damage transfer. He could indeed be elsewhere... yet, by the same coin, him being dispelled and hurt by Guts & Zodd was an unexpected thing, he could never have forseen that. Griffith on the other hand, is immensely powerfull. Ganishka could suspect and fear being hurt in the same manner again if he is somewhere else, even more now that he his indeed scarred by the DS... if things got ugly, he could attempt to dispel his own illusion and evade the damage. That would also count as "fleeing"  :schierke:

But I really think he will just die and serve as Griffith's trophy, something else happening seems rather unlikely (Though I secretly hope this is not the end of the emperor of terror, he's a great character and we've not seen any backstory at all). I also doubt Griffith would give Ganishka time to do anything else save what he wants him to do.
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Offline Mage

Re: Episode 283
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2007, 06:51:16 PM »
I think Miura's been chiseling Silat's character into a member of Guts' Band for years now.

Yeah, I was hoping they'd at least meet again before Guts left, but I definitely think he'll join Guts eventually...wonder if the tapasa will be around at that time.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2007, 07:43:39 PM »
The fact remains that it was such a small display of power that annhilated all that were in the way of it, due to him "missing" SK.

Well yeah, he certainly did crush them effortlessly, as one would expect of a member of the God Hand. And he probably would have done the same with SK hadn't that one noticed his intention quickly enough.

Silat has his own clan and his own reasons to fight, and the only reason he would have any use for Guts is for his power and his experience with fighting apostles

Or things could happen in between now and then that will provide a good reason for a team-up. It could even be more or less forced by the situation. Basically, there's no way to tell how things will have evolved whenever Silat and Guts will meet next, assuming they do.

I can't think of anyone, Schierke excepted, that could "touch" (read: CLEAVE) a spiritual form other than Griffith, who's already proven his ability to manipulate spirits in ep 195.

I'm wondering if he won't just slash through the fog and cut it in half with his sabre. Kind of like Guts did with dust before the battle for Doldrey, or the way the Falcon of Light cleaved Zodd in half in volume 17. I'm hoping for something a little more unique though.

Oh, I agree that Griffith likely has a wide assortment of ways to damage Ganishka, one of his MINIONS.

Come on man, give the guy some credit. He's probably the only one struggling so as not to be a minion right now. :void:

Up until now, it's been a popular and well-defended argument that Ganishka's fog form was a projection of his astral body utilizing surrounding elements. Schierke backed this up during the assault in Vritannis and by the fact Ganishka's body was in a seperate place by the end of the battle, with a visible scar. But ... there are some anomalies with this. One, for that to work 100%, Ganishka's appearance in front of the Hawks' Lancers would have to have been composed of fog all along (very very intricate fog), AND the same thing goes for the Ganishka as seen through the majority of ep 282, since he instantly transforms into the fog form once again.

Well, the possibly that he could transform his own body into fog was also favored until recently, it's really episode 277's events that made it seem unlikely after we saw that he had been projecting his spirit, not unlike Schierke. What happened in episode 282 is what created confusion, because now it seems he can do both things, transform into AND project himself through the fog (and even merge with actual clouds to form his gigantic GanishkA-Bomb). Personally that's fine me, but I'd definitely like some explanations on his magic and the extent of his powers because it's still quite mysterious. Even after all that, there's still the question of how his apostle-hood affects everything. It's also interesting to note that his armor seems to have transformed altogether with him, like his clothes and even throne did in volume 27.

This whole business got me wandering as to where would his "real" body be. I mean, going by episode 277, the fog is a projection and he is elsewhere, would he risk coming in person or is this just a trick of some sort, akin to the thing in Wyndham (whatever it was). The bed we see him in, in episode 277 could really be anywhere (the carriage, Wyndham, back in Kushan teritory even).

This is a very good point actually, I've speculated on something similar before. The room in which we see him at the end of episode 277 does NOT look like it's in the mobile fort. Now we know some time passed by between 278 and 279, but it could still be a hint that he's in fact elsewhere, like you said in Wyndham or even in Kushan territory.

just a simple trick/projection/illusion

I know I'm nitpicking but I'd prefer if we were precise on this. An illusion is to appear as a normal man while in fact being a cluster of magic mist. That's the illusion, to make people believe it's the real him when it's just fog. The astral projection as I mean it is different, it refers to the fact he's magically projecting his spirit into the fog to animate it as he pleases. That's two separate phenomenons, one of which is still just speculation for now (the possibility of creating illusions from the fog).

Ganishka wouldn't be so afraid if he were a simple illusion either.

I think he was impressed/overwhelmed more than afraid, and actually I do think being in his astral form would make it worse. Remember Schierke's words in volume 22, and how Ganishka saw Griffith in episode 282. It would also explain why Ganishka started steaming up and eventually turned into fog, Griffith could have triggered it and broken the "spell" that maintained the illusion of a normal human standing there by using his power to "pressure" Ganishka. So basically I don't think it's impossible at all.

I haven't read it anywhere, but what about Ganishka fleeing the scene? He seems to be quite fast to move/flow while in fog form...

Actually I posted about it in the last thread. :guts:

Griffith on the other hand, is immensely powerfull. Ganishka could suspect and fear being hurt in the same manner again if he is somewhere else, even more now that he his indeed scarred by the DS... if things got ugly, he could attempt to dispel his own illusion and evade the damage.

Indeed. And being in some remote fortress instead of right there next to his enemy would always be better and safer, at least in his eyes. If we see things that way, this situation could even be some kind of a trap from Ganishka, luring his enemies in the fort and blasting them away (without revealing his true nature to his troops fighting outside), with the possibility to flee easily in case things went bad. That'd be underestimating Griffith of course but it'd still be more clever of Ganishka than to just show up there without a plan and protected by a couple of standard guards.

Anyway, to balance things a bit after all this speculation, it'd be strange for Ganishka to hold his face (because of the scar) if it wasn't the real him in there. Or maybe he feel the pain even as fog?

Offline prawnstyle

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2007, 08:22:03 PM »
Hmm,  preview doesnt give much away,  but I think that is appropriate for such a decisive confrontation...  Hmm,  I kind of hope that Ganishka isnt vanquished at this point.  But I have a feeling the strong wind is refering to some display by Griffth...finally displaying his power.


Aazealh:  I seriously doubt Femto's attack in the eclipse would have vanquished skullknight as easy as that...he has fought the Godhand for a thousand years,  and no doubt has faced them before on numerous occasions and has fought thousands of apostles...I wonder if he has some divine protection as well...

peace

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2007, 08:42:48 PM »
This is seriously off-topic but...

I seriously doubt Femto's attack in the eclipse would have vanquished skullknight as easy as that...he has fought the Godhand for a thousand years,  and no doubt has faced them before on numerous occasions and has fought thousands of apostles...

And how exactly would have he survived it? What could lead us to think so? He dodged the attack, that's proof enough of his capacity to survive in my book. Other than that, he's likely not indestructible. Don't forget that in the deeper layers of the world, the members of the God Hand have quasi-absolute power. Femto didn't even need to move to defeat Guts in volume 3. And SK has been opposing the God Hand for a long time, but that doesn't mean he fought face to face with them. Eclipses don't happen every other week, and until recently he didn't have a way to reach them other than during these (or apostle ceremonies, but then that becomes a tad far-fetched to imagine him rushing everytime one happens). That's 4 times besides Griffith's consecration at most, and from the God Hand members' reaction they weren't used to him interrupting like that.

I wonder if he has some divine protection as well...

Yeah, no doubt Mitra protects him against the evil of Set. :schierke:

Offline prawnstyle

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2007, 10:57:59 PM »
Well,  from SCHIERKE magic there seems to be beings of light which have great power and which the magic folk call on to grant them power...but yeah,  given SK nature there is zero chance hes getting aid...but I dont doubt the Godhand are balanced out by another force...Forgive my personal prejudice but I cant help but see Griffth as a little 'jumped up.'  Guts is the real phenomonon of Berserk

peace

Offline Dirty Dog

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Re: Episode 283
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2007, 11:44:53 PM »
Well,  from SCHIERKE magic there seems to be beings of light which have great power and which the magic folk call on to grant them power...but yeah,  given SK nature there is zero chance hes getting aid...but I dont doubt the Godhand are balanced out by another force...Forgive my personal prejudice but I cant help but see Griffth as a little 'jumped up.'  Guts is the real phenomonon of Berserk

peace

the elementals? I don't think that they have a distinction between good and bad.

SK's probably not under any divine protection, I don't think he needs it.

The Idea of Evil - who makes people into God Hands - is the collective conciousness of the evil of the world. There may be an "Idea of Good" too, but there's no evidence of its existence.

I don't know what you meant by Griffith being "jumped up", but I have a feeling I'd disagree with what you meant anyway.



by the way, was there no dialogue in this episode? Or is it just that nobody's gotten around to translating?
(not trying to rush anyone, just curious because the last few episodes have been translated quickly)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 02:15:03 AM by Dirty Dog »
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