Author Topic: *Berserk Research Paper*  (Read 4418 times)

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Offline deathbybears

*Berserk Research Paper*
« on: April 23, 2007, 11:34:09 PM »
Hello! I'm writing a research paper on Berserk. I want to answer a couple of questions. I've done alot of reading through the forums, but still I'm a little confused.


1) How can the Berserk universe be applied to our own? How can it better be explained?

2) Logically, within the Berserk universe, is it possible that Guts will be able to escape his supposed doom while maintaining a loving   
    relationship with Casca?

3) Is Guts now, or could he become capable of truly having an effect on the flow of the universal river? if so, what would he need to do to get there?

4) If both void and Skullknight are able to access the fourth dimension, and given that skullknight once wore guts' armor, what does
    this say about the potential of guts?


Sorry for the residual nature of some of these questions, but I plan to come up with one hell of a paper and I want to really solidify these answers. Your contribution is completely appreciated.


Offline Aazealh

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 08:28:33 PM »
Hi,

I'm going to give you some quick answers. Please detail your questions more for further clarifications.

1) How can the Berserk universe be applied to our own? How can it better be explained?

Be applied to our world? What do you mean? It's a fantasy world, and I'm not sure there's a lot to say about it that isn't in the manga. We don't know much about Berserk's world in general.

2) Logically, within the Berserk universe, is it possible that Guts will be able to escape his supposed doom while maintaining a loving relationship with Casca?

Well yes, it's possible. With enough imagination, what isn't? There are a lot of unknowns currently but this is definitely a possibility among many others.

3) Is Guts now, or could he become capable of truly having an effect on the flow of the universal river? if so, what would he need to do to get there?

I don't think you should use the river analogy outside of the original reference in the manga. As for having an effect, one could argue it's already the case, but it really depends on what you mean by "truly." The only way Guts has to affect the world is through his actions; that's quite limited given the scale we're talking about, yet he might still make a big difference that way. Now if you mean changing the flow of Causality literally then I doubt it's ever going to happen. Manipulating stuff through Causality is a prerogative of the Idea of Evil.

4) If both void and Skullknight are able to access the fourth dimension, and given that skullknight once wore guts' armor, what does this say about the potential of guts?

What? Void maybe, but SK can't access a "4th dimension" in the sense you seem to be implying. SK's sword can cut through the layers of the world using the power of the beherits he's collected. Void can use his abilities to create a curious dimensional object which concept and depiction resemble that of a Klein bottle, it's different from SK's Yobimizu no Tsurugi. Not that we know anything about Void's powers anyway. The fact Guts is now wearing an armor that once belonged to SK doesn't mean anything special in regard to your question.

Now about the title of this thread. First off, I don't think you should mix the 3 notions you've named, Fate, Will and Causality. They're not the same thing, and in Berserk it's the principle of Causality that matters. Second, as for who "dictates" it, well, nobody... However, the Idea of Evil does influence and manipulate people, events, etc through Causality to obtain what it desires. In that sense, the answer to your question is that the great master of Causality is the Idea of Evil.

Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 09:11:21 PM »
So I guess the question is: Is Guts directing his will, or is the idea of evil directing it?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 07:55:02 PM »
So I guess the question is: Is Guts directing his will, or is the idea of evil directing it?

Guts' will is his own. Now that doesn't mean he can't be influenced or manipulated. A good part of his life happened like the Idea of Evil wanted it to, not because his will was "directed" but simply because he acted in a way that benefited the master plan (said in a grim voice) on his own accord. Basically, there's no need to coerce people into doing certains things when you can just let them do what you want willingly without them knowing they're serving your cause. That's the advantage of being the Idea of Evil, and that's why Causality is a very powerful tool.

You could dig up old posts on the topic if you're interested, I've written quite a few.

Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 10:07:35 PM »
Do you think it was The Idea of Evil who influenced Guts to leave The Band Of The Hawk? Without him leaving, Griffith may have never activated the Beherit. It was only as guts overheard Griffith speaking with the Princess that he decided he had to go. If Guts is motivated by love for Casca, is it possible that he could be able to escape the manipulative notions of The Idea?

Offline Walter

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 10:13:33 PM »
Do you think it was The Idea of Evil who influenced Guts to leave The Band Of The Hawk?
That's really a gross misunderstanding of how the Idea of Evil works, as detailed in the lost episode. It doesn't actively manipulate people's lives. It sets large events in motion far in advance, and limits the variables of the outcome "by merging blood with blood." Vague, I know, but that's what we have to work with.

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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 10:30:00 PM »
All I want to know is whether or not Guts emotions will allow him to surpass the orchestrated plans of the Idea?

Also, why was the "The Lost episode" left out later on?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 11:07:08 PM by deathbybears »

Offline Walter

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 11:07:22 PM »
All I want to know is whether or not Guts emotions will allow him to surpass the orchestrated plans of the Idea?
Specifics of what you expect would really help formulate a reasonable answer. Your question is so vague... I'm not even sure it's a valid question. Why would his emotions affect causality?

As for the lost episode being left out, as has been mentioned in many, many, many, many, many, many threads, and in the Berserk Encyclopedia's first section, it was left out of the tankoubons because Miura said it was too "revealing."
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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 11:13:30 PM »
For instance, if Casca were'nt present, Guts' only influence would be revenge. With Casca in the picture, it might be possible that love could direct Guts to act in such ways that might elude the orchestration of The Idea.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 11:25:29 PM »
For instance, if Casca were'nt present, Guts' only influence would be revenge. With Casca in the picture, it might be possible that love could direct Guts to act in such ways that might elude the orchestration of The Idea.
I understand what he is saying... with the Idea of Evil having a rough plan on how things should go... Guts will begin to start doing something according to that plan but what Deathbybears is asking is if Guts i sin the middle of the plan, can he overcome it and choose to do something different that the Idea of Evil did not expect him to do?  I hope I made that more clear.
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Offline Walter

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 11:32:44 PM »
For instance, if Casca were'nt present, Guts' only influence would be revenge. With Casca in the picture, it might be possible that love could direct Guts to act in such ways that might elude the orchestration of The Idea.
Well, just so you know, with this question, the thread is heading to Speculation Nation, because that's the nature of the material we're discussing here. We're in uncharted territory, and there is no solid answer to what you're asking.

Your question presupposes causality's intent for Guts is to have him kill Griffith. Why would that be an aim of "the plan?" Griffith's rise to power was established on the back of these events. I also think you're underestimating "love" as it has played out in previous episodes. Guts has already acted out of love many times since he and Casca became a real couple.

... what Deathbybears is asking is if Guts i sin the middle of the plan, can he overcome it and choose to do something different that the Idea of Evil did not expect him to do?  I hope I made that more clear.
If he's asking "Will Guts overcome?", how the hell are we expected to answer that? That's like asking at large, "how will it end?" Your question is the heart of the entire thrust of the series.
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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 08:19:37 AM »
Well, not so much as "Will he overcome," but rather something more like: Given the layers of the Berserk universe and all of the information that we currently have, is it logically possible for Guts to overcome?

Offline Walter

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 03:25:27 PM »
Yes.
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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 12:45:05 AM »
reading through book three again, I found some proof. After Guts severs the head of The Count, The Count again calls on the Godhand. They make their best attempt to try to get him to sacrifice his beloved daughter. He is unable to do so, and is cast to hell. After this, Void says "The strings of fate have been severed." In the least, now we can say that we know for sure that fate, at least in Berserk, is never absolute.

Offline Walter

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 04:12:13 AM »
No.
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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 07:44:46 AM »
Well if no, why?

Offline Luca

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Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 12:04:55 PM »
Deathbybears, I think you are looking at the concept of fate too similarly to determinism, which is not what Idea is.  The mentioning of the strings of fate being severed had more to do with the ceremony being interrupted, it wasn't some grand screw loose in the scheme of things.

Idea and causality, or what you would like to call fate, in the Berserk world is quite a way different than determinism.  There are humans, and then there are the humans that are meant for a bigger role in Idea's plan (ie; griffith).  Think of him as a rose, with causality as the seed that was planted.  Every person that comes into the picture acts on their own free will.  However, it just so happens that there are so many possible events that will lead to the outcome the Godhand want, that these acts of free will on the humans' part are a means to an end.  Guts surviving all of these instances of death in his life proves him a remarkable person.  However, it could have been a part of Idea's plan all along, since he helped thrust into motion the events that led to Griffith's fall from grace.  If Guts were not in the picture, or was somehow lost previous to this, causality would have found another way for Griffith to fall from grace.  It could have been anything from Guts' death on the battlefield, to Griffith becoming ill and his body failing him.  The sacrifice was inevitable.

Now if you are asking if Guts is a part of Idea's plan, the answer to your question was that he once fell into Idea's plan, and that was his role and he was supposed to die at the Eclipse.  Guts may have survived before in instances where he was supposed to die, but Idea and causality found ways to work around that.  Idea apparently does not have an all-or-nothing blueprint for Its plans, it has ways to wing it and improvise and work around things.   Surviving the Eclipse was a rare event, but look at Griffith's new incarnation: His plans are kicking into gear perfectly despite Guts still living, thus Idea's plan is still in the works.  If Guts stops Griffith and stops Idea/the Godhand, then no, it would not be Idea's will, as far as we can tell.

I hope that clears up things, and if not, I suggest you pick up some old philosophy books, it might give you a better understanding. 

"In the least, now we can say that we know for sure that fate, at least in Berserk, is never absolute."

Basically, no.  As I said, causality is not an 'absolute' thing.  Think of an outcome as a mathematical equation with numerous factors that could lead up to that particular answer. If you take away one, you still have many.  Idea does not have a black and white plan laid out, so things cannot be 'distrupted' as easily as you think.  If Idea wants 3, and you take away 2+1, and 4-1, causality will make sure 1+4-2 happens.

At least, this is the best way I can word it to you.  It's really hard to try to get someone to understand if they are looking on a different philosophical perspective than what was intended. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 12:23:19 PM by Luca »
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Offline deathbybears

Re: In Berserk: Who dictates Fate/Will/Casuality
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2007, 08:31:16 PM »
Hey thanks! that made alot of sense! I hadn't thought of the idea in that sense before. So basically, Guts is like a free radical now.

Offline deathbybears

*Berserk Research Paper*
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 01:17:25 AM »
Hey everyone, I need you're input!! Im doing a research paper on Berserk so I'm gonna need  some opinions. Here is my general working thesis:

Basically, im going to argue that we adore Guts to our cores because of the fact that he empowers us to cope with, or even removes our greatest fear: Death, if even for only a moment. Also, the underlying theme of an unreachable desire for love creates an empathy for a tragic hero that might otherwise be seen as a murderous villain.

Help me out here people, why do you love Guts so much?

Offline Walter

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Re: *Berserk Research Paper*
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 02:25:39 AM »
He's not ALWAYS immune to fear you know , he just overcomes it. Anyway, I think his courage is inspiration not for our fear of death (which, be honest, isn't really an everyday fear), but helps us overcome general obstacles througout life, and to never be trampled by others, and to always, always have an evil grin when someone tells you something's impossible.

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Offline CnC

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Re: *Berserk Research Paper*
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 12:22:28 PM »
Didn't you already have a thread where you were asking for input on your research paper?

I'd like to keep the Creation Station an outlet for expression.  If it's the intent of the conversation to discuss Guts' character's appeal, might I suggest Character Cove.
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Offline Walter

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Re: *Berserk Research Paper*
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2007, 03:46:20 PM »
Merged it with his earlier thread.
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Offline deathbybears

Re: *Berserk Research Paper*
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2007, 10:53:10 PM »
Thanks ;P.

Question: Im aware of Miura's influences, but in what ways have those influences tracended into the message that Berserk conveys?

Also, might anyone know the the origins of the interview with Miura on the BerserkChronicles site? Thanks!