Author Topic: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters  (Read 21091 times)

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Offline RedDevilFC

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Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« on: December 29, 2007, 12:33:44 AM »
Let me start off by saying that I think the vast majority of characters in the Berserk universe are both interesting and "three-dimensional"; they resemble real people.

For me, two glaring exceptions to this are Farnese and Serpico, whose characters have no internal consistency, and who are woefully out of place as members of Guts's band. 

Before the tail end of Vol. 21, Farnese is portrayed as a hysterical, violent, sadomasochistic, incompetent, insane, cruel, pyromaniac idiot.  Then, suddenly, within a few volumes, she changes into a warm-hearted, caring, sane individual who acknowledges her failings, but works hard at improving them. 

Huh?  How does this make any sense?  She just suddenly changes into a completely different person?  Without any rhyme or reason? 

Also, what's her purpose in the group, besides feebly trying to protect Casca, and failing miserably at it, in the process forcing some other character to save both of them?  I mean, at the very least Isidro is funny, can take out a few enemies, and is working hard at becoming a serious warrior.  What does Farnese offer again? 

I also have a problem with Serpico's character.  You're trying to make me believe that someone as intelligent and powerful as him would be a bitch to every Farnese's little whims, even if she is his half-sister and inadvertently helped him to become a noble? 

Even if one were to accept that he's an extremely weak-willed, pussy-whipped individual, his character is just so contradictory. 

Apparently, he's willing to get wounded a couple hundred times because Farnese continually makes him fight duels, without harming the noble in question, but he independently confronts Guts and tries to mercilessly kill him because he's worried he might make her unhappy? 

I realize that's not a clear contradiction, but it doesn't mesh well with his generally phlegmatic, carefree, dependent mindset at all. 

Am I the only person who thinks this way? 

Edit

I am a goddamn idiot and failure.  I meant to post this in the "Characters" subforum.  Can one of the mods move it there?  Thanks. 

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 01:06:13 AM »
For me, two glaring exceptions to this are Farnese and Serpico, whose characters have no internal consistency, and who are woefully out of place as members of Guts's band. 

Not seeing what you're basing this on.  A _LOT_ of dialogue and development surrounds these two.  Both are very deep characters.

Before the tail end of Vol. 21, Farnese is portrayed as a hysterical, violent, sadomasochistic, incompetent, insane, cruel, pyromaniac idiot.  Then, suddenly, within a few volumes, she changes into a warm-hearted, caring, sane individual who acknowledges her failings, but works hard at improving them. 

Huh?  How does this make any sense?  She just suddenly changes into a completely different person?  Without any rhyme or reason? 

Farnese had a huge shock to the system because of her meeting Guts.  She seeks to better understand her world.  Even with this change, "a couple of volumes" (from vol 15 to around vol 21, and then further growth afterwards) is many hundreds of pages.  It's not nearly as quick nor is it without reason as you say.  If you can't see the reason then might I suggest you re-read it (as you've missed a lot).

Also, what's her purpose in the group, besides feebly trying to protect Casca, and failing miserably at it, in the process forcing some other character to save both of them?  I mean, at the very least Isidro is funny, can take out a few enemies, and is working hard at becoming a serious warrior.  What does Farnese offer again? 

She wants to find her place just as much, and has expressed this many times.  Despite how she feels about it, though, she is the only one who can deal with Casca of the group.  She hasn't "failed miserably at it".  This relationship also reflects on Serpico.  Again, you're missing a lot of info here.

I also have a problem with Serpico's character.  You're trying to make me believe that someone as intelligent and powerful as him would be a bitch to every Farnese's little whims, even if she is his half-sister and inadvertently helped him to become a noble?

Farnese also happened to save Serpico from "a miserable existance", swearing loyalty to her was something he was willing to do.  He didn't learn about the relation until later.

Even if one were to accept that he's an extremely weak-willed, pussy-whipped individual, his character is just so contradictory. 

He's not.  You've missed a ton of exposition regarding how he feels about Farnese and his position at her side.

Apparently, he's willing to get wounded a couple hundred times because Farnese continually makes him fight duels, without harming the noble in question, but he independently confronts Guts and tries to mercilessly kill him because he's worried he might make her unhappy? 

It was very obvious (especially to Serpico) that Guts was very distressing to Farnese.  It was very easy to draw the conclusion that she'd be better off if he weren't there.  I don't see how that's so hard to believe, as it falls in line with everything he's done for her (or at the very least it makes no sense for you to accuse him of being 2-dimensional).

Am I the only person who thinks this way?

Regardless, you're wrong.  I'm afraid the opinions you've expressed here just don't jive with the facts in the manga.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 01:17:36 AM by CnC »
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 01:59:39 AM »
Not seeing what you're basing this on.  A _LOT_ of dialogue and development surrounds these two.  Both are very deep characters.

Farnese had a huge shock to the system because of her meeting Guts.  She seeks to better understand her world.  Even with this change, "a couple of volumes" (from vol 15 to around vol 21, and then further growth afterwards) is many hundreds of pages.  It's not nearly as quick nor is it without reason as you say.  If you can't see the reason then might I suggest you re-read it (as you've missed a lot).

Unfounded arrogance aside, what you just wrote is a pointless collection of words, which in no way explain why her character changes so drastically. 

I think you should definitely reread volumes 15 to 21 slowly and carefully, since Farnese's character doesn't change at all during that period, besides the occasional confused facial expression.  The visible change occurs around the beginning of the Millenium Falcon arc, once she decides to join Guts's party.   

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She wants to find her place just as much, and has expressed this many times.  Despite how she feels about it, though, she is the only one who can deal with Casca of the group.  She hasn't "failed miserably at it".  This relationship also reflects on Serpico.  Again, you're missing a lot of info here.

If you disagree with me, that's fine.  In fact, I was hoping someone would provide a compelling, dissenting opinion. 

But at least try to list some actual facts or reasonable arguments; so far, you seem to be assuming that I have a poor knowledge of the series, while reciting completely meaningless, irrelevant factoids which don't disprove a single thing I wrote. 

Yes, I'm aware, just like anyone who has even skimmed through the manga, that Casca and Farnese are close. 

That doesn't address either Farnese's utter lack of importance to the party, or her seismic shift in personality. 

Maybe you should reread my first post again? 

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Farnese also happened to save Serpico from "a miserable existance", swearing loyalty to her was something he was willing to do.  He didn't learn about the relation until later.

So you're saying that Serpico is such a one-dimensional, needy, weak fool that a child's promise he once made has governed and restricted every faucet of his character and being since then, well into his adulthood? 

Uh, okay.  That's even worse than I imagined it.

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He's not.  You've missed a ton of exposition regarding how he feels about Farnese and his position at her side.

What are you even arguing here?  It seems you were so eager to bash another's opinion, that you never bothered to actually outline what you yourself believe.     

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It was very obvious (especially to Serpico) that Guts was very distressing to Farnese.  It was very easy to draw the conclusion that she'd be better off if he weren't there.  I don't see how that's so hard to believe, as it falls in line with everything he's done for her (or at the very least it makes no sense for you to accuse him of being 2-dimensional).

Yeah, I agree that Guts is distressing for her.

But how does it make sense for Serpico to ruthlessly challenge him in combat like that?  Of all the things that are distressing for Farnese, whether it be insolent nobles at a ball, or Lord Mozghus, why does he only react this viscerally to Guts? 

In general, his character is very laid-back, simple, and evasive.  Why the sudden hostility towards Guts, especially given his supposed high intelligence? 

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Regardless, you're wrong.  I'm afraid the opinions you've expressed here just don't jive with the facts in the manga.

This quote is so funny on so many different levels.  At least if you offered even the slightest shred of proof and evidence for why I'm wrong, that would be one thing. 

But considering that your entire post was a collection of disjointed observations wholly unrelated to the original post, it just seems like a really arrogant thing to say, especially since I'm sure you don't have a monopoly on the truths of the Berserk universe. 

Argue with facts and specific episodes, not assumptions about the supposed ignorance of your opponent.  I've never really posted on a forum about something like manga before, but I'd hope that this type of elitism isn't considered cool or trendy here. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 02:09:07 AM by RedDevilFC »

Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 02:49:31 AM »
Um, no offence RedDevilFC, I'm honestly curious - have you actually read the manga?

It seems like you're basing a lot of your assumptions on things you've made up in your own head - it's understandable that a wiki page about Berserk might be all you've read. Even I use it for reference sometimes. But trust me, the actual manga provides all the detail and nuance you seem to have missed the first time through - it's worth reading again.

I'm afraid it's frowned upon (at least) to provide direct links to it. I'd reccomend the Dark Horse releases as a good place to start, if you want to buy it. Otherwise, the assorted translations threads, while missing all the visual information, should be able to fill in the gaps of your knowledge of the characters that you're having such a hard time with.

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 03:00:14 AM »
Um, no offence RedDevilFC, I'm honestly curious - have you actually read the manga?

Yeah, I've read up to the current chapter, and the "no offence" remark is especially stupid, since you're assuming I'm wasting everyone's time without even reading the manga....which is indeed quite offensive.

It's amazing; two responses, one by a person with as few posts as mine, and neither of them actually addresses any of the points I make, or tries to provide any logical arguments, but both talk down and assume I either haven't read the series, or haven't understood what I read. 

Sigh...anyone actually want to give me some tangible reasons why they disagree, or am I just banging my head against the stone wall of silly, misplaced elitism? 

I was expecting a lot of different posts in response to mine, but not this. 

Quote from: Bekul
Otherwise, the assorted translations threads, while missing all the visual information, should be able to fill in the gaps of your knowledge of the characters that you're having such a hard time with.

This is almost becoming comical. 

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 03:18:41 AM »
The problem is that you put all those modifiers on Farnese, and that there's some sudden change in her character and voila, she's a completely different person.  The occasionally "confused facial expressions" is exactly where the change is taking place.  Maybe that's where the miscommunication between you and CnC and Bekul is happening, because from the very moment Farnese met Guts her world (and consequently, herself) had begun to change. 

Serpico's change is much slower and less noticeable (and less willing, as well).  He doesn't want Farnese to go on with such a reckless journey as Guts is going on, but is unwilling to go against her will due to a fairly complicated and delicate relationship (which I hardly need to elaborate on). 

I can understand if some members seem elitist, but they know the manga very well, and it's not out of sheer arrogance or spite that they don't elaborate beyond "well, reread the manga".  I hope you'll keep coming back to these boards for more discussions!
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 03:36:32 AM »
The problem is that you put all those modifiers on Farnese, and that there's some sudden change in her character and voila, she's a completely different person.  The occasionally "confused facial expressions" is exactly where the change is taking place.  Maybe that's where the miscommunication between you and CnC and Bekul is happening, because from the very moment Farnese met Guts her world (and consequently, herself) had begun to change.

Yeah, I understand it's shocking for Farnese, but why would that inspire such a change in her character, especially in the positive direction? 

After all, to use an exaggerated example, Lord Mozghus or the heretics on the outskirts of Albion also saw a number of spectacles that must have been very extraordinary for them.  That didn't change any of them into caring, kind individuals, didn't it?  Hell, even Nina doesn't undergo any profound changes, except a realization of her own frailty, which isn't directly related to the supernatural so much as her own constant fear. 

It can be rationalized all you want, but if you consider Farnese as a real person, and not just a one-dimensional manga character, there is absolutely no logic behind her diametric shift in personality. 
 
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Serpico's change is much slower and less noticeable (and less willing, as well).  He doesn't want Farnese to go on with such a reckless journey as Guts is going on, but is unwilling to go against her will due to a fairly complicated and delicate relationship (which I hardly need to elaborate on). 

But the point is that such a relationship only makes sense if Serpico is myopic, incompetent, and extremely weak-willed, which according to the manga, is simply not the case, ESPECIALLY considering his cold-blooded ambush of Guts on the rock cliff. 

These things would be excusable if "Berserk" was just another silly manga creation for junior high fanboys/girls.  However, overall, the characters in the series are deep, interesting, and life-like. 

These two aren't. 

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I can understand if some members seem elitist, but they know the manga very well, and it's not out of sheer arrogance or spite that they don't elaborate beyond "well, reread the manga".  I hope you'll keep coming back to these boards for more discussions!

I think I know the manga pretty well, also.  I've read exactly as many chapters as anyone else not personally acquainted with Mr. Miura has. 

It's one thing to respond to something FACTUALLY incorrect (there have been quite a few of these in some of the topics I've browsed, to be fair), but responding to opinions backed up by concrete facts and episodes with an arrogant "go and actually read the manga to clear up your lack of understanding" is either rude, lazy, or both. 

I really look forward to hearing some well thought-out reasons for why I'm wrong, backed up by the events of the manga. 

Offline Walter

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 03:50:49 AM »
Well first off, I think the loud responses you've drummed up are a direct result to your being relatively new here and instantly attacking two beloved characters, so I wouldn't take any of these criticisms too personally. :guts: We're always hungry for new members who post threads that challenge the norm, as long as its intelligently done, as it is here. Now, on to the convincing:

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It can be rationalized all you want, but if you consider Farnese as a real person, and not just a one-dimensional manga character, there is absolutely no logic behind her diametric shift in personality.
It's really simple to explain actually, and it's all about her CONVICTION. That word being not-so-coincidentally the title of the entire series arc from volume 14-21, right from the beginning of Farnese's introduction to her choice to follow Guts. Pretty suspicious timing, wouldn't you say?  :serpico: I think it's perfectly safe to say that an aspect of the entire arc is setup to show her reasons for shifting her allegiances so dramatically by the end. It's all set in place by Albion - her fears, doubts and even corruption by the Holy See all build up throughout these volumes to a climax as they collide headfirst with this compelling man who stands against everything she's known. Man, it's a thing of beauty, really.  :judo:

She's now following the only true CONVICTION she's ever felt, as she confesses in volume 21, ep 176. Her actions in the Holy See and even her personality were false pretenses until Guts showed up and she began genuinely having feelings about the world around her. The fact she's so infatuated with Guts isn't a coincidence either, as I'll elaborate on next.

Here's just something I thought of while typing the post that I think may help you sympathize with Farnese (though I may regret this as it's almost tangential at this point). Just think of this, she's a character in transition just as much as Guts was when he first joined the Hawks. What was his purpose and function in the group at the beginning? It didn't make much sense for him to be there either, initially. It grew over time, but at first he didn't know his role yet either, and pondered it just as Farnese does in volume 24. Guts simply gravitated towards Griffith, this man that changed his life upon entering it, just as Farnese's relationship with Guts is now.

As for Serpico, he's much more simple to explain and I understand your difficulty in sympathizing with him, since he's such a doormat for Farnese... Because he's such an emotional sponge, we rarely see how he's processing events and his own feelings. But what is sure is that his views on the situation between Farnese and Guts don't change at all, up until he and Guts' second duel in Vritannis. He saw Guts as a threat and then as a protector of Farnese. And logically, he's fallen in line with the band, but he had to get over that stumbling block to truly develop as a person. It's been a huge hinderance for him since Guts entered his own life and, as he percieved it, jeapordized everything that was important to him.

PS: This sucks, I'm leaving town in the morning and by the time I get back I'll have missed all the continued conversation. Argh...
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Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 04:00:01 AM »
Yeah, I understand it's shocking for Farnese, but why would that inspire such a change in her character, especially in the positive direction? 

After all, to use an exaggerated example, Lord Mozghus or the heretics on the outskirts of Albion also saw a number of spectacles that must have been very extraordinary for them.  That didn't change any of them into caring, kind individuals, didn't it?  Hell, even Nina doesn't undergo any profound changes, except a realization of her own frailty, which isn't directly related to the supernatural so much as her own constant fear. 

It can be rationalized all you want, but if you consider Farnese as a real person, and not just a one-dimensional manga character, there is absolutely no logic behind her diametric shift in personality.

One can say that the "spectacles" that Mozghus and the heretics saw only affirmed their belief (as in Mozghus' case) or showed that they had no belief to begin with (as in the heretics' case, since they were just there for the physical pleasures).  When confronted with such "spectacles", fear gripped them and turned them to zealotry or cowardice, depending on the person.

For Farnese, it instilled doubt into her belief, and made her question her own maturity and supposed strength of will (as leader of the H.I.C.K.s). If it weren't for her encounter with Guts it might have moved her one of the two above mentioned emotions.  Instead, towards the end of volume 21 she makes one important decision based on her doubt: to seek the truth.  And as you can see, her change isn't immediate.  When she and Serpico catch Isidro later, she still acts much like her old noble self, ordering Serpico to cut off Isidro's arm.  She is far from being truly transformed, and it will take a good 8-10 volumes for her to become a truly different person (when she decides to go with Guts and co. instead of staying with her family).   Even after that her character is still evolving (no small thanks to Roderick and Schierke).
 
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But the point is that such a relationship only makes sense if Serpico is myopic, incompetent, and extremely weak-willed, which according to the manga, is simply not the case, ESPECIALLY considering his cold-blooded ambush of Guts on the rock cliff.

His ambush of Guts was hardly cold-blooded, as he comments on his own recklessness for even getting into such a fight with Guts (even though he made every precaution to make sure he had the fullest advantage, as he also does later on in the manga).  His reason for fighting Guts was Guts' effect on Farnese, which is the whole issue that brings him constantly in conflict with Guts many times over.  His trauma of having burned his own mother and his own personal relationship (fetish or bloodwise) with Farnese causes him to seek a sort of neutrality, compliance and incompassion, neither really objecting to Farnese wishes, yet doing what he can to ensure her safety.  His transformation (like Farnese) will take many more volumes in order for him to fully become a different person.

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These things would be excusable if "Berserk" was just another silly manga creation for junior high fanboys/girls.  However, overall, the characters in the series are deep, interesting, and life-like. 

These two aren't. 

I think I know the manga pretty well, also.  I've read exactly as many chapters as anyone else not personally acquainted with Mr. Miura has. 

It's one thing to respond to something FACTUALLY incorrect (there have been quite a few of these in some of the topics I've browsed, to be fair), but responding to opinions backed up by concrete facts and episodes with an arrogant "go and actually read the manga to clear up your lack of understanding" is either rude, lazy, or both. 

I really look forward to hearing some well thought-out reasons for why I'm wrong, backed up by the events of the manga. 

I really wish we could really come to a better understanding, because it seems to me almost as if we're reading two different manga (in regards to these two characters).  I can elaborate more on my arguments, but I just want to make sure I don't seem too overbearing or something.  The last thing I want to do is antagonize a fellow fan.

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Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 04:16:36 AM »
You must understand that responding to a post with so much wrong takes a bit of effort.  I don't want to come off as arrogant, but you _really_ do show a profound lack of reading comprehension here.

Unfounded arrogance aside, what you just wrote is a pointless collection of words, which in no way explain why her character changes so drastically. 

No, really, you don't know what you're talking about.  Inside that "pointless collection of words" is the answer to WHY she's changed as a character.  I suggest you re-read my response in addition to the manga, as well.   :schierke:

I think you should definitely reread volumes 15 to 21 slowly and carefully, since Farnese's character doesn't change at all during that period, besides the occasional confused facial expression.  The visible change occurs around the beginning of the Millenium Falcon arc, once she decides to join Guts's party.   

If you think she's exactly the same throughout all that time then sorry, there's very little I can do to dissuade you of your idiocy.  Since Farnese and Serpico were introduced the sheer volume of information about them (literally from childhood) would be enough for anyone else.  I don't consider myself to be so enlightened that I'm reading into the character development more than others, you really are just that slow.

If you disagree with me, that's fine.  In fact, I was hoping someone would provide a compelling, dissenting opinion.

But at least try to list some actual facts or reasonable arguments; so far, you seem to be assuming that I have a poor knowledge of the series, while reciting completely meaningless, irrelevant factoids which don't disprove a single thing I wrote.   

You will find many internal monologues and conversations that point to what kind of characters they are, what they've been through, how they feel about themselves, others, and each other.  It really is asking for a lot to request every single bit of dialogue to be presented before you as evidence that they are, in fact, not two-dimensional characters.

Yes, I'm aware, just like anyone who has even skimmed through the manga, that Casca and Farnese are close. 

That doesn't address either Farnese's utter lack of importance to the party, or her seismic shift in personality. 

I suggest you not skim it next time  :ganishka:

It's funny, however, that you claim that is such a basic observation and yet you can't gleam her importance to the group.  Casca's attachment to Farnese is very pivotal to them being able to manage her.  Not only that but this relationship has been a HUGE source of development for Farnese (and Serpico).

So you're saying that Serpico is such a one-dimensional, needy, weak fool that a child's promise he once made has governed and restricted every faucet of his character and being since then, well into his adulthood? 

Uh, okay.  That's even worse than I imagined it.

What are you referring to?  My calling it a "miserable existance"?  He said so himself   :serpico:
By comparison he found dealing with Farnese much easier. 

Seriously, this is all there in black and white.  I'm not sure why you need to be told this again since you claimed to have read it (perhaps you missed the bigger "faucets"  :ganishka: of his character in addition to the smaller drips.

What are you even arguing here?  It seems you were so eager to bash another's opinion, that you never bothered to actually outline what you yourself believe.     

I'm not really enjoying saying how wrong you are, but I assure you I'm attempting to correct your opinion with "facts".  I'm finding it rather annoying to reply to you, really, so I really wouldn't call it "eager".

Yeah, I agree that Guts is distressing for her.

But how does it make sense for Serpico to ruthlessly challenge him in combat like that?  Of all the things that are distressing for Farnese, whether it be insolent nobles at a ball, or Lord Mozghus, why does he only react this viscerally to Guts? 

I wouldn't claim Mozgus or the nobles who insulted her to be on the same level.  Serpico acknowledged this himself while fighting Guts in vol. 19.  If you consider Farnese's aristocracy and religion as shells than the nobles and Mozgus reinforced them, Guts was shattering them.

In general, his character is very laid-back, simple, and evasive.  Why the sudden hostility towards Guts, especially given his supposed high intelligence? 

I think it's fairly apparent that the more obvious aspects you refer to (laid-back, simple, evasive) overlay much deeper feelings that came to the surface sporadically, then later through a very lengthy internal monologue (vol 22).  Again, this would be obvious to anyone with a 4th grade level of reading comprehension.

This quote is so funny on so many different levels.  At least if you offered even the slightest shred of proof and evidence for why I'm wrong, that would be one thing.

Well given your ability to read, one could argue I'm wasting my time with you.  :guts:

But considering that your entire post was a collection of disjointed observations wholly unrelated to the original post, it just seems like a really arrogant thing to say, especially since I'm sure you don't have a monopoly on the truths of the Berserk universe. 

Argue with facts and specific episodes, not assumptions about the supposed ignorance of your opponent.  I've never really posted on a forum about something like manga before, but I'd hope that this type of elitism isn't considered cool or trendy here. 

Monopoly of truths in the Berserk universe, eh?  What a silly thing to say.  hehe.

Anyways if you would rather have an argument on facts than I'm sure this would be a lot more productive, however all you've provided are opinions based on a (supposed) lack of facts.  I assure you the facts are there in the text for all who would read them, and I don't think anyone could claim to have a "monopoly" (sorry, thats just such a stupid accusation to make) of them.

Yeah, I understand it's shocking for Farnese, but why would that inspire such a change in her character, especially in the positive direction?

After all, to use an exaggerated example, Lord Mozghus or the heretics on the outskirts of Albion also saw a number of spectacles that must have been very extraordinary for them.  That didn't change any of them into caring, kind individuals, didn't it?  Hell, even Nina doesn't undergo any profound changes, except a realization of her own frailty, which isn't directly related to the supernatural so much as her own constant fear.   

Like I said in my first post, her meeting Guts (and subsequently everything that happened to her during the the night Guts took her hostage - dogs, horse, but really her being possessed) really shook her.  Much like it did to Guts it made certain aspects to who she is  painfully obvious to her.  This is culminated when Serpico appears.
It's more subtle (so you must have missed it) to notice Farnese ordering Serpico to fight Guts for her honor (much like she did with the Nobles) only to have Serpico say he couldn't.  This sort of interaction that will be mirrored in their past would called a "development"  :schierke:

Neither Nina nor Mozgus follow a similar path to Farnese so I'm not sure you can't really draw a comparison there.

It can be rationalized all you want, but if you consider Farnese as a real person, and not just a one-dimensional manga character, there is absolutely no logic behind her diametric shift in personality. 

Well, your confusion between "one-dimensional" and "two dimensional" aside (Farnese is a point), I think perhaps you would find reading just the internal monologues Farnese has sufficient to judging how she grows as a character.
Like I said it's not a quick process (hundreds of pages, many volumes) and it happens almost as soon as we know her (like Yota said).

These two aren't. 

I think I know the manga pretty well, also.

Not enough, I'd say.   :void:

I've read exactly as many chapters as anyone else not personally acquainted with Mr. Miura has. 

They're episodes, and I think you've missed quite a few if this is all you took from it.

It's one thing to respond to something FACTUALLY incorrect (there have been quite a few of these in some of the topics I've browsed, to be fair), but responding to opinions backed up by concrete facts and episodes with an arrogant "go and actually read the manga to clear up your lack of understanding" is either rude, lazy, or both. 

I really look forward to hearing some well thought-out reasons for why I'm wrong, backed up by the events of the manga. 

Oh sure, come in and say a bunch of shit off the top of your head, but when someone calls you on it you demand every bit of dialogue to disprove your opinion.  If this is your usual style of dealing with a new forum than I dare say you aren't going to last (edit: well I guess Walter finds what you've said intelligent, something I find highly debatable  :guts: )
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 04:26:24 AM by CnC »
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2007, 04:38:22 AM »
Well first off, I think the loud responses you've drummed up are a direct result to your being relatively new here and instantly attacking two beloved characters, so I wouldn't take any of these criticisms too personally. :guts: We're always hungry for new members who post threads that challenge the norm, as long as its intelligently done, as it is here.

Heh, I think every virtually every character throughout the series has something interesting going for them, (even relatively minor characters like the Queen or Wylad) except for Pippin, Serpico, and Farnese. 

I never really bothered with what other people thought while watching the anime and reading the manga, but I'm surprised to hear the latter two are fan favorites. 

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Now, on to the convincing:
It's really simple to explain actually, and it's all about her CONVICTION. That word being not-so-coincidentally the title of the entire series arc from volume 14-21, right from the beginning of Farnese's introduction to her choice to follow Guts. Pretty suspicious timing, wouldn't you say?  :serpico: I think it's perfectly safe to say that an aspect of the entire arc is setup to show her reasons for shifting her allegiances so dramatically by the end. It's all set in place by Albion - her fears, doubts and even corruption by the Holy See all build up throughout these volumes to a climax as they collide headfirst with this compelling man who stands against everything she's known. Man, it's a thing of beauty, really.  :judo:

She's now following the only true CONVICTION she's ever felt, as she confesses in volume 21, ep 176. Her actions in the Holy See and even her personality were false pretenses until Guts showed up and she began genuinely having feelings about the world around her. The fact she's so infatuated with Guts isn't a coincidence either, as I'll elaborate on next.

I completely agree with this, and it could certainly be used as an excellent reason for why she leaves the Holy Knights of the Iron Chain, or why she decides to follow Guts. 

But why would it change her personality?  She was completely self-centered, cruel, and bitchy before meeting Guts.  Why would that change also?  Even if the events at Albion force her to confront the hypocrisy of her faith and re-evaluate her own (virtually non-existent) abilities, why would it change everything else about her personality, to the point where she practically becomes a different character??

Also, what do you guys think of her being virtually useless as a member of Guts's party?  I know that Guts thanking her for taking care of Casca will probably be interpreted by a lot of people as her being important to the party, but realistically, she doesn't even do that effectively. 

Personally, I'd rather they wrote in a different character in her place, or made Isidro or even Schierke take care of Casca.     

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Here's just something I thought of while typing the post that I think may help you sympathize with Farnese (though I may regret this as it's almost tangential at this point). Just think of this, she's a character in transition just as much as Guts was when he first joined the Hawks. What was his purpose and function in the group at the beginning? It didn't make much sense for him to be there either, initially. It grew over time, but at first he didn't know his role yet either, and pondered it just as Farnese does in volume 24. Guts simply gravitated towards Griffith, this man that changed his life upon entering it, just as Farnese's relationship with Guts is now.

This is definitely tangential, but does Guts's role with the Hawks ever really change?  He was always Griffith's ace; the tremendous warrior who hacked away everyone on his path to a kingdom, the same mindless role that Zodd now occupies.   

Guts eventually realizes this, and leaves to pursue his own goals.  The thing with Farnese is, she has nothing to offer Guts TO BEGIN WITH.  Although, if you're arguing that she'll eventually leave their party, I definitely hope you're right. 

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As for Serpico, he's much more simple to explain and I understand your difficulty in sympathizing with him, since he's such a doormat for Farnese... Because he's such an emotional sponge, we rarely see how he's processing events and his own feelings. But what is sure is that his views on the situation between Farnese and Guts don't change at all, up until he and Guts' second duel in Vritannis. He saw Guts as a threat and then as a protector of Farnese. And logically, he's fallen in line with the band.

It's not that I don't sympathize with him; hell, he reminds me of some of my friends when they were with their harpy-like present or ex-girlfriends. 

It's just that in his case, he's supposedly tough, independent, talented, intelligent, and strong, and has known Farnese since they were eight years old, as well as all the ugly aspects of her character.   

To have his personality dominated so completely for THAT long, and yet somehow reconcile that with the other aspects of his character really beggars the imagination, at least for me.  Maybe not so much for other fans.

Quote from: yota821
His ambush of Guts was hardly cold-blooded, as he comments on his own recklessness for even getting into such a fight with Guts (even though he made every precaution to make sure he had the fullest advantage, as he also does later on in the manga).  His reason for fighting Guts was Guts' effect on Farnese, which is the whole issue that brings him constantly in conflict with Guts many times over.  His trauma of having burned his own mother and his own personal relationship (fetish or bloodwise) with Farnese causes him to seek a sort of neutrality, compliance and incompassion, neither really objecting to Farnese wishes, yet doing what he can to ensure her safety.  His transformation (like Farnese) will take many more volumes in order for him to fully become a different person.

Maybe so, but the cliff ambush was totally out of left field; it didn't fit anything we had seen of Serpico before or for a few volumes afterwards.  I guess you could make a (weak) argument that Serpico is intrinsically hateful of Guts because he notices the attraction Farnese has for him, but it's still completely at odds with how easily he burned his own mother at the harpy's zealous insistence. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 04:52:38 AM by RedDevilFC »

Offline Walter

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 04:48:06 AM »
I'll be brief since this thread has become EPIC HUGE QUOTE WAR PART CXCIIIIIII.

But why would it change her personality?  She was completely self-centered, cruel, and bitchy before meeting Guts.  Why would that change also?  Even if the events at Albion force her to confront the hypocrisy of her faith and re-evaluate her own (virtually non-existent) abilities, why would it change everything else about her personality, to the point where she practically becomes a different character??
Other members here have already pointed out her old traits don't dissapear (asking for Isidro's arm). I think her grappling with how irresponsible she is at losing Casca is another way of her realizing her own faults, which is a great way of showing how she's changing while clearly expressing her old habits.

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This is definitely tangential, but does Guts's role with the Hawks ever really change?  He was always Griffith's ace; the tremendous warrior who hacked away everyone on his path to a kingdom, the same mindless role that Zodd now occupies.   
Well, uh, they became his family. I wasn't really talking about Guts literal position (i.e. defensive/offensive linebacker), but his relationship with the others.

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Guts eventually realizes this, and leaves to pursue his own goals.  The thing with Farnese is, she has nothing to offer Guts TO BEGIN WITH.  Although, if you're arguing that she'll eventually leave their party, I definitely hope you're right. 
Not what I was arguing at all, but I can already see the error of my tangent. She offers the germ of being a magic user, friendship and a babysitter to Casca and proven loyalty as a member of the group. I guess she can't hack 10 trolls in one swing, but she's a pretty vital element to the group in those in-between-battle moments.

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Maybe so, but the cliff ambush was totally out of left field; it didn't fit anything we had seen of Serpico before or for a few volumes afterwards.  I guess you could make a (weak) argument that Serpico is intrinsically hateful of Guts because he notices the attraction Farnese has for him, but it's still completely at odds with how easily he burned his own mother at the harpy's zealous insistence. 
Not really... He even says he had to go out on his own to do that because he couldn't IN FRONT OF Farnese (implying he's constantly holding back his true ability, which should have been apparent by volume 19). Not so out of left field, really. He figured with the right strategy, he could do what others on a level playing field couldnt: take down Guts. Not such a bad, or unexpected idea really.
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 04:56:28 AM »
You must understand that responding to a post with so much wrong takes a bit of effort.  I don't want to come off as arrogant, but you _really_ do show a profound lack of reading comprehension here.

You're not only arrogant, you're also exceptionally rude, and comically stupid. 

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If you think she's exactly the same throughout all that time then sorry, there's very little I can do to dissuade you of your idiocy.

I'm also sorry I can do little do dissuade you of your idiocy and baseless elitism.  It's funny how you can't seem to offer any actual factual evidence for your position, though. 

I guess typing weak passive-aggressive insults is less taxing for your overworked brain cells, isn't it?   

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Since Farnese and Serpico were introduced the sheer volume of information about them (literally from childhood) would be enough for anyone else.  I don't consider myself to be so enlightened that I'm reading into the character development more than others, you really are just that slow.

Do you think these little moronic insults at the end of any paragraph make you seem cooler or more correct, or something? 

On the contrary, they make you seem like a fool who can't argue with anything resembling reason.

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Oh sure, come in and say a bunch of shit off the top of your head, but when someone calls you on it you demand every bit of dialogue to disprove your opinion.  If this is your usual style of dealing with a new forum than I dare say you aren't going to last (edit: well I guess Walter finds what you've said intelligent, something I find highly debatable  :guts: )

Again, this is so comical, I'm not even sure how to respond.  I'll lay off any extensive assumptions about what type of person you are (trust me dude, I could easily embarrass you if I wanted to; your insults aren't even funny, original, or well-written), as it's against the forum rules, but I doubt many people find your approach worthwhile to read. 

And if writing insults to new members of a forum is your idea of cool, you have an awful lot to learn, little kid. 

Focus

Post

Alright, I get where you're coming from.  I still don't completely agree, and the part about asking for Isidro's arm occurs right before she really starts traveling with Guts, but I see what you guys are saying. 

At any rate, it's cool to read some of your opinion's. 

Offline Walter

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 04:59:32 AM »
Putting my foot down here. Any further personal insults inserted in posts regarding either party will immediately be deleted. This food fight got poo all over my awesome first post here  :judo:

Oh, and for the record, this has ceased being "intelligent" conversation. I retract my former comment. Bravo.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 05:01:20 AM »
These kind of cut'n-paste arguments isn't really my forte, but I'll try my best:

But why would it change her personality?  She was completely self-centered, cruel, and bitchy before meeting Guts.  Why would that change also?  Even if the events at Albion force her to confront the hypocrisy of her faith and re-evaluate her own (virtually non-existent) abilities, why would it change everything else about her personality, to the point where she practically becomes a different character??

How could it not change her?  Having lost everything she held dear (her religion, self-assurance, and to a certain extent her utter reliance on Serpico) she had to change or go completely insane.  She needed some stable ground to redefine herself, and that stable ground was Guts.  Upon Guts she form her new self, a new identity if you will (although that may take it a bit too far). 

Quote
Also, what do you guys think of her being virtually useless as a member of Guts's party?  I know that Guts thanking her for taking care of Casca will probably be interpreted by a lot of people as her being important to the party, but realistically, she doesn't even do that effectively. 

Personally, I'd rather they wrote in a different character in her place, or made Isidro or even Schierke take care of Casca.
 

As for the fact that she is useless, she say's so herself many times over, so it's not something she's unaware of.  It's just that she is making an effort to make herself useful is a startling contrast to her character (her realization, and then her subsequent actions to remedy it) that shows she is evolving.  Casca makes her realize she is not useless, not matter how ineffectual and meaningless it may seem (and indeed, you may argue otherwise, but no one else in the party can keep Casca in line, not Puck, Isidro, or even Schierke).  She then forms the formation of her character on Casca, then eventually Schierke, then whoah, somehow we have a very complex character!!

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To have his personality dominated so completely for THAT long, and yet somehow reconcile that with the other aspects of his character really beggars the imagination, at least for me.  Maybe not so much for other fans.

His underlying trauma (which I'll expound on below) isn't in contrast with his seeming calming demeanor, but is the cause of it.  Once his past is confronted by Guts through Farnese, his facade is removed.

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Maybe so, but the cliff ambush was totally out of left field; it didn't fit anything we had seen of Serpico before or for a few volumes afterwards.  I guess you could make a (weak) argument that Serpico is intrinsically hateful of Guts because he notices the attraction Farnese has for him, but it's still completely at odds with how easily he burned his own mother at the harpy's zealous insistence. 

If you thought he burned his mother without hesitation, then you missed alot of exposition and inner conflict within Serpico, not to mention the torture on Farnese face (she obviously didn't want Serpico to burned along with the heretics, showing her affection for him).  That event obviously left him very scarred, as can be seen to his aversion to fire, as well as his seemingly kind of act of helping the boy whose father was burned at the stake.  As I stated above, these events in Serpico's past shaped his character to what you saw in volumes 15-21, which were then utterly smashed when Guts came into the picture.

-Edit- Sorry Wally, hope this thread doesn't get closed.  :judo:
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Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 05:06:32 AM »
Phew I thought you had found my post too intimidating to read and thus just skipped it  :troll:

Also, what do you guys think of her being virtually useless as a member of Guts's party?  I know that Guts thanking her for taking care of Casca will probably be interpreted by a lot of people as her being important to the party, but realistically, she doesn't even do that effectively. 

Like I said, taking care of Casca is not simple.  She's more capable than the rest of the group of doing it (this has been demonstrated many times, like in Enoch for example).  She was considered so important that Guts and co. didn't consider a ship to Elfhelm an appropriate substitute.

Personally, I'd rather they wrote in a different character in her place, or made Isidro or even Schierke take care of Casca.     

It's nice to want things...

This is definitely tangential, but does Guts's role with the Hawks ever really change?  He was always Griffith's ace; the tremendous warrior who hacked away everyone on his path to a kingdom, the same mindless role that Zodd now occupies.   

Guts eventually realizes this, and leaves to pursue his own goals.  The thing with Farnese is, she has nothing to offer Guts TO BEGIN WITH.  Although, if you're arguing that she'll eventually leave their party, I definitely hope you're right. 

Guts' decision to leave was not really because he felt his role in the hawks was insubstantial (he was a commander, it was hardly mindless).  It was more a result of overhearing Griffith's speech to Charlotte.  He wanted to be someone who could be seen as an equal to Griffith (a true friend), and pursue his own dream.

Maybe so, but the cliff ambush was totally out of left field; it didn't fit anything we had seen of Serpico before or for a few volumes afterwards. 

Serpico's protective nature towards Farnese had been demonstrated quite a few times prior to the cliff.  Most noteably was when he threw a stck at the arrow wound to protect her, when he spoke of her to Guts when Guts was leaving Farnese's tent, when he came to Farnese's rescue after she was captured by Guts, and when he protected her from the possessed cultists after she began leading a chase after Guts.  Those are just what come to mind, so you see it's really not so out of left field

You're not only arrogant, you're also exceptionally rude, and comically stupid. 

I'm also sorry I can do little do dissuade you of your idiocy and baseless elitism.  It's funny how you can't seem to offer any actual factual evidence for your position, though. 

I guess typing weak passive-aggressive insults is less taxing for your overworked brain cells, isn't it?   

Do you think these little moronic insults at the end of any paragraph make you seem cooler or more correct, or something? 

On the contrary, they make you seem like a fool who can't argue with anything resembling reason.

Again, this is so comical, I'm not even sure how to respond.  I'll lay off any extensive assumptions about what type of person you are (trust me dude, I could easily embarrass you if I wanted to; your insults aren't even funny, original, or well-written), as it's against the forum rules, but I doubt many people find your approach worthwhile to read. 

And if writing insults to new members of a forum is your idea of cool, you have an awful lot to learn, little kid. 

Focus

So these are the coherent thoughts we wanted?

I beg you, at least attempt to "embarrass" me with substance behind your opinions.  You really have yet to do that.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:15:32 AM by CnC »
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Offline pippin22

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 05:33:17 AM »
Pippin is a very deep character.  Remember the time he got a nose bleed?  Or the time he punched the tunnel?  Now you see.

Offline Badass mode ash

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 05:36:40 AM »
*edit* RedDevilFC, in plan english, can you go out and just say that you don't like the characters and get it over with? You don't need a justify your dislike towards them as you see it, emotions and reasoning don't always go hand in hand.

I won't say how I feel about the characters in this thread, but the thing is, it seems to me like you're itching for something you really don't need- You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Just let it, and be done with it, it's that simple.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:59:35 AM by Badass mode ash »

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 05:39:07 AM »
Phew I thought you had found my post too intimidating to read and thus just skipped it  troll

Sounds like what you did with every post of mine in this topic; sorry I couldn't find anything other than juvenile emoticons and childish insults in your last response.  Since you've decided to write down your thoughts for a change though, I'll give them a shot. 

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Like I said, taking care of Casca is not simple.  She's more capable than the rest of the group of doing it (this has been demonstrated many times, like in Enoch for example).  She was considered so important that Guts and co. didn't consider a ship to Elfhelm an appropriate substitute.

Yeah, I know what Guts and the rest consider her important, but does it really make any actual sense?  She and Casca have emotionally bonded, true, but time and again, she isn't able to protect Casca from the simplest of dangers, even something like falling off a rooftop in the middle of the storm. 

Thus, her utility to the group is virtually nil, and moreover, why do you even need a separate character for babysitting Casca?  Why not just hand out that role to Isidro, for instance? 

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Guts' decision to leave was not really because he felt his role in the hawks was insubstantial (he was a commander, it was hardly mindless).  It was more a result of overhearing Griffith's speech to Charlotte.  He wanted to be someone who could be seen as an equal to Griffith (a true friend), and pursue his own dream.

I recommend you re-read my last post carefully.  Here's what I wrote;

Quote from: RedDevilFC
This is definitely tangential, but does Guts's role with the Hawks ever really change?  He was always Griffith's ace; the tremendous warrior who hacked away everyone on his path to a kingdom, the same mindless role that Zodd now occupies.   

Guts eventually realizes this, and leaves to pursue his own goals.

His role isn't insubstantial, but it's also mindless, and has nothing to do with his own ambitions in life.  (Granted, it's not clear that he has any at that point) 

And yeah dude, I know that his leaving stems from the conversation with Charlotte.  That scene has only had about a thousand flashbacks to it in the manga. 

Quote
Serpico's protective nature towards Farnese had been demonstrated quite a few times prior to the cliff.  Most noteably was when he threw a stck at the arrow wound to protect her, when he spoke of her to Guts when Guts was leaving Farnese's tent, when he came to Farnese's rescue after she was captured by Guts, and when he protected her from the possessed cultists after she began leading a chase after Guts.  Those are just what come to mind, so you see it's really not so out of left field

All of those other examples are passive actions, though.  Farnese gets in trouble, Serpico comes to her rescue. 

With Guts, it's a very direct, aggressive, preventative action; he tries to kill him, and in a devious, malicious manner, no less.

Quote from: yota
How could it not change her?  Having lost everything she held dear (her religion, self-assurance, and to a certain extent her utter reliance on Serpico) she had to change or go completely insane.  She needed some stable ground to redefine herself, and that stable ground was Guts.  Upon Guts she form her new self, a new identity if you will (although that may take it a bit too far).

She hasn't lost a thing; she just witnessed the cruelty of Lord Mozghus (less shocking for her than us; she's used to the medieval church's methods), and saw a bunch of demons. 

Again, I can see how that causes her to abandon the Holy See or tag along after Guts, but her personality, too?  I don't know about your experiences, but people just don't change that easily in real life. 

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As for the fact that she is useless, she say's so herself many times over, so it's not something she's unaware of.  It's just that she is making an effort to make herself useful is a startling contrast to her character (her realization, and then her subsequent actions to remedy it) that shows she is evolving.  Casca makes her realize she is not useless, not matter how ineffectual and meaningless it may seem (and indeed, you may argue otherwise, but no one else in the party can keep Casca in line, not Puck, Isidro, or even Schierke).  She then forms the formation of her character on Casca, then eventually Schierke, then whoah, somehow we have a very complex character!!

Miura, as the author of the manga, can do whatever the hell he pleases, and completely transforming Farnese's personality and giving her some ability later on is well within that domain. 

You can't use that as an argument for how any of this IS LOGICAL, however. 

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If you thought he burned his mother without hesitation, then you missed alot of exposition and inner conflict within Serpico, not to mention the torture on Farnese face (she obviously didn't want Serpico to burned along with the heretics, showing her affection for him).  That event obviously left him very scarred, as can be seen to his aversion to fire, as well as his seemingly kind of act of helping the boy whose father was burned at the stake.  As I stated above, these events in Serpico's past shaped his character to what you saw in volumes 15-21, which were then utterly smashed when Guts came into the picture.

Everything you just wrote hinges on Serpico being dominated by Farnese's personality throughout virtually his entire life, which the manga makes clear does indeed happen. 

That makes no logical sense, considering what we know of Serpico's abilities and Farnese's childish, simple, cruel nature.  At least, not for 10+ years. 

Quote from: badass ash mode
I think I see about adding something to this that doesn't have quotes in it. RedDevilFC, in plan english, can you go out and just say that you don't like the characters and get it over with? You don't need a justify your dislike towards them as you see it, emotions and reasoning don't always go hand in hand.

Honestly, I don't even understand what the above paragraph means.  I'm not saying this to be rude; I have no clue what you're asking me. 

I feel that the pair is misplaced as characters in Guts's party.  Even as characters in the manga itself, they're fine, just not as comrades of Guts.

I thought my first post in this topic made that pretty clear.  I've also never been emotional about any fictional characters, if (?) that's what you were asking.

Quote from: pippin22
Pippin is a very deep character.  Remember the time he got a nose bleed?  Or the time he punched the tunnel?  Now you see.

This is off-topic, but the problem is, those are two of the grand total three important scenes featuring Pippin; the third being his sacrifice at the Incarnation of the Femto. 

I turn 21 two months from today, but if you asked me at the age of 16, I would probably reply that Pippin was a badass, stoic hero, in the mold of Conan. 

Now, I realize that characters like Pippin or Conan aren't really anyone at all; they're one-dimensional and wooden. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:51:08 AM by RedDevilFC »

Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 05:54:23 AM »
Hmm, I think I know what it might be - many of the actions of the characters are based on emotion, not logic, hence your "OMG actions are illogical" while true, misses the point that people feeling intense and powerful emotions, or even just weak and pallid ones, rarely act like predictable machines.

Does that make sense?

(epic thread is epic)

*edit*

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I thought my first post in this topic made that pretty clear.  I've also never been emotional about any fictional characters, if (?) that's what you were asking.

Then, purely from curiosity, why the insult-laden defensiveness? Your questions have been answered, fully, factually, and repeatedly, yet you're still refusing to accept the answers. Do you have evidence that supports your attachment to your proposition?

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2007, 06:00:11 AM »
She hasn't lost a thing; she just witnessed the cruelty of Lord Mozghus (less shocking for her than us; she's used to the medieval church's methods), and saw a bunch of demons. 

Again, I can see how that causes her to abandon the Holy See or tag along after Guts, but her personality, too?  I don't know about your experiences, but people just don't change that easily in real life.

Miura, as the author of the manga, can do whatever the hell he pleases, and completely transforming Farnese's personality and giving her some ability later on is well within that domain. 

You can't use that as an argument for how any of this IS LOGICAL, however.

You seem to have forgotten all the exposition about Farnese in regards with her own cage she was put in, and how Guts simply shattered her entire world.  Everything that was preppy, noble, and suffocating her life (and thus structuring her "bitchy, simplistic" attitude) was smashed to bits by Guts.  Tell me, how can she logically stay the way she was when everything that supported her personality collapsed?

As to your pseudo-rebuttal regarding Farnese's uselessness, I never once mentioned miura-san's name when proving her usefulness, so I don't see how you can ignore everything I just wrote.  Unless you're saying that Miura can incorporate any character, let's say Schierke, to have a meaninful and growing relationship with Farnese, just like he did with Casca and Guts?  I'm not sure what you're proving or disproving here, just that Miura can evoke human nature and is able to create deep and complex character relations?

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Everything you just wrote hinges on Serpico being dominated by Farnese's personality throughout virtually his entire life, which the manga makes clear does indeed happen.

That makes no logical sense, considering what we know of Serpico's abilities and Farnese's childish, simple, cruel nature. 

Emphasis mine.

I really don't know what your point is here, that the manga does state that Serpico is being dominated by Farnese's personality, or that Serpico is too good to be dominated by Farnese's simple, childish nature?  In either case, Serpico did not coldly murder his mother, he does care for Farnese, and he isn't too hot about exposing someone he cares for to the dangers that Guts faces (and poses).

To me the arguments seem to get more confusing, but I'm hopeful about us coming to some kind of understanding.
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2007, 06:12:19 AM »
Sounds like what you did with every post of mine in this topic; sorry I couldn't find anything other than juvenile emoticons and childish insults in your last response. 

And that's one reason why my questioning your reading comprehension seems valid, to me.  If the last bit of every sentence is all you read then it's no wonder why you miss so much

Yeah, I know what Guts and the rest consider her important, but does it really make any actual sense?  She and Casca have emotionally bonded, true, but time and again, she isn't able to protect Casca from the simplest of dangers, even something like falling off a rooftop in the middle of the storm. 

Well considering everyone in the group sees her relationship to Casca as a HUGE benefit to the group (and has said so), I'd say it makes perfect sense why they'd want her around. :schierke:

Not everyone in the group needs to be a super warrior.

Thus, her utility to the group is virtually nil, and moreover, why do you even need a separate character for babysitting Casca?  Why not just hand out that role to Isidro, for instance? 

Isidro is also finding his place in the group.  He had his doubts over his competency, just like Farnese.  Isidro hasn't developed any sort of bond with Casca and Casca doesn't really trust guys.

  (Granted, it's not clear that he has any at that point) 

Guts, slowly growing into his place in the hawks vows he will swing his sword for Griffith, that's really his goal there before the fountain.  So you see it's not really so much about what he does for the Hawks as who he is to Griffith.  Just to clarify your early statement, as I see what you're getting at (although it has nothing to do with the topic, now  :schierke: )

All of those other examples are passive actions, though.  Farnese gets in trouble, Serpico comes to her rescue.

With Guts, it's a very direct, aggressive, preventative action; he tries to kill him, and in a devious, malicious manner, no less.

Serpico of all people would be the most likely to understand the gravity Guts' existence has on Farnese.  She had just nearly gotten herself killed trying to lead a charge through the a horde of possessed cultists to try and get at Guts.  She had to be forcefully removed from the battle or she would have likely persisted.  If that isn't enough evidence to see Guts as something that would be better off out of the picture (to Serpico), than there's no point in continuing this part of the argument.

She hasn't lost a thing; she just witnessed the cruelty of Lord Mozghus (less shocking for her than us; she's used to the medieval church's methods), and saw a bunch of demons.

Again, I can see how that causes her to abandon the Holy See or tag along after Guts, but her personality, too?  I don't know about your experiences, but people just don't change that easily in real life. 
 

Did you read this back to yourself?  She had just witnessed Mozgus torturing a mother of a diseased/starving child (to which her first reaction was to look away, until pressured to look).  And before that when the possessed wild dogs attacked and the horse attempted to rape her the foundation for her understanding this world was shaken, only to have it blown apart when she herself was possessed.

It's odd you think that wouldn't affect a person...

Miura, as the author of the manga, can do whatever the hell he pleases, and completely transforming Farnese's personality and giving her some ability later on is well within that domain. 

You can't use that as an argument for how any of this IS LOGICAL, however. 

I'm surprised in a story about demon gods, men with 6 foot swords, demons, ghosts, witches, trolls (list goes on), you take so much issue with whether or not the development of two of the characters depicted is logical.

Quite frankly the actions and motives of these characters has been explained over and over to you at this point (if you must ignore everything I've said on the subject than at least pay attention to everyone else  :serpico:) and if you still don't see anything that would dissuade you of your OPINION, then you're lost.

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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2007, 06:16:15 AM »
Hmm, I think I know what it might be - many of the actions of the characters are based on emotion, not logic, hence your "OMG actions are illogical" while true, misses the point that people feeling intense and powerful emotions, or even just weak and pallid ones, rarely act like predictable machines.

Yeah....you definitely don't get it.  That wasn't my problem with the characters at all.  I don't think I can make it any more clear than what I wrote in my post.  Re-read it. 

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Then, purely from curiosity, why the insult-laden defensiveness? Your questions have been answered, fully, factually, and repeatedly, yet you're still refusing to accept the answers. Do you have evidence that supports your attachment to your proposition?

Well, if you'll notice, we're currently in the middle of a pretty informative back and forth exchange on the subject.  Even CnC has posted some concrete thoughts on the subject....you're the only one that hasn't. 

Try to stick to the topic. 

Quote from: yota
You seem to have forgotten all the exposition about Farnese in regards with her own cage she was put in, and how Guts simply shattered her entire world.  Everything that was preppy, noble, and suffocating her life (and thus structuring her "bitchy, simplistic" attitude) was smashed to bits by Guts.  Tell me, how can she logically stay the way she was when everything that supported her personality collapsed?

See, I just don't see it as being this dramatic and over the top.  I know the manga made it out that way, but why, oh WHY do the events of Albion affect not only her religious leanings, but her character too? 

After all, her horrible personality is a product of poor, permissive parenting.  It has nothing to do with her world view. 

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As to your pseudo-rebuttal regarding Farnese's uselessness, I never once mentioned miura-san's name when proving her usefulness, so I don't see how you can ignore everything I just wrote.  Unless you're saying that Miura can incorporate any character, let's say Schierke, to have a meaninful and growing relationship with Farnese, just like he did with Casca and Guts?  I'm not sure what you're proving or disproving here, just that Miura can evoke human nature and is able to create deep and complex character relations?

No, only that some of these character relations are very believable and poignant (Guts-Casca relationship, Guts-Griffith relationship, even the Guts-Isidro relationship), while a choice few seem manufactured and completely unbelievable. (Serpico-Farnese, Farnese-Guts)

Quote from: yota
I really don't know what your point is here, that the manga does state that Serpico is being dominated by Farnese's personality, or that Serpico is too good to be dominated by Farnese's simple, childish nature?  In either case, Serpico did not coldly murder his mother, he does care for Farnese, and he isn't too hot about exposing someone he cares for to the dangers that Guts faces (and poses).

Yep, the latter.  (The part in bold) 

Just makes no sense if we take Serpico as a human, believable character.  Again, I have a lot of personal experience with friends who remind me of a Serpico with a girl of theirs; it's just that the infatuation doesn't last from eight years old to 18-20, and the guys are nowhere near as capable and intelligent as Serpico is said to be. 

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To me the arguments seem to get more confusing, but I'm hopeful about us coming to some kind of understanding.

Well, here's the thing; there are half a dozen people who disagree with me in this topic, many of who have probably argued the finer points of the Berserk manga to death for YEARS, and no one agrees with my view. 

This is also my first time putting my thoughts about the series to paper.  Taking this into account, I would expect you guys to OVERWHELM me with reasons for why I'm wrong. 

So far, I haven't seen it.  In fact, I'm more secure than ever that I'm at least partially correct. 

Now, you could respond that this is arrogance on my part, and that I can't admit to being wrong, but that's not the case; I'm more than willing to admit when someone proves me wrong in a logical debate.  (Granted, there aren't any such examples on this forum....yet!)

Offline Triple Life

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2007, 06:25:21 AM »
I guess if you want to understand Farnese and Serpico, you have to look at the very basic parts of their personality. Serpico, despite his posturing as a care-free person, is almost emotionally dead. In order to fill this emptiness in himself he latches onto Farnese, a girl who is dangerously full of emotion. Even in more recent episodes who can see how intensely passionate she is, especially in her interactions with Schierke. So, really, Serpico is anything but independent and a lot of the other things you used to describe him. He NEEDS (or at least thinks he needs) Farnese. She's the only thing that gives his life meaning, before she found him he was ready to give up and die in the snow, and he will fight and die to protect that.

Which is why he hated Guts. Not only did Farnese want him dead in the beginning, her changing threatened what Serpico had attached himself to. He didn't want to lose the powerful personality that she is. He even says that he can't allow her to change. Without her emotion, he is empty. It doesn't matter how skilled or intelligent or resourceful he is, they're only tools to protect what is precious to him.

Farnese's reason for changing is pretty evident. She's a very emotional person and, therefore, reacted in a very emotional way to Guts. Everything about him challenged what she had based her life upon. Yes, there was the whole supernatural event that was the Mirror Eclipse, but, as you noticed, it affected her in a much different way than it did everyone else at Albion. Farnese is so emotionally fragile that it probably impacted her far more deeply than most others.  For some at Albion, in a twisted way it was a confirmation of their beliefs. But for Farnese, because of Guts' presence, she saw that there was much more to the events than the obvious and it scared the shit out of her. And through it all she saw that none of this challenged Guts' perceptions of the world. She wants to know why. End of the obvious.

So, she hooks her emotional wagon to Guts. She kneels at his feet, begs him and cuts her hair in a fit of passion. When she meets Schierke, she finds out there is even more to the world that runs counter to her world view, that she doesn't understand, and she seeks to know more. She wants to know why she felt the way she did and how she was wrong. She goes about this with intensity. Her over-the-top outbursts never really stop, they just change form. She has become curious about this new world she's discovered. Because of this, she is trying new things and being more introspective.

I don't think it's spelled out quite so simply in the manga, but reading over the two episode flashback of Serpico's past, it started to make more sense to me. Serpico's really only changed by giving up a lot of the pretenses he intentionally set up and Farnese has become more curious about the world and herself.

That all said, I still don't really like Farnese much myself.

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2007, 06:31:27 AM »
And that's one reason why my questioning your reading comprehension seems valid, to me.  If the last bit of every sentence is all you read then it's no wonder why you miss so much

It seems to me like you're just very emotionally attached to the characters, have spent an ungodly amount of time on this forum, and when someone comes up with an opposing viewpoint about them, you take it personally, and respond with emotion, and not logic. 

Either that, or you just don't read others' posts. 

One of the two. 

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Well considering everyone in the group sees her relationship to Casca as a HUGE benefit to the group (and has said so), I'd say it makes perfect sense why they'd want her around. :schierke:

Uh... I already addressed this.

Quote from: RedDevilFC
Miura, as the author of the manga, can do whatever the hell he pleases, and completely transforming Farnese's personality and giving her some ability later on is well within that domain.

You can't use that as an argument for how any of this IS LOGICAL, however.

Quote from: CnC
Not everyone in the group needs to be a super warrior.

Serpico is probably the second or third best fighter out of the group, and arguably the most worthless as an individual personality.  Isidro and Puck, while far less useful in combat, are very important, interesting, and BELIEVABLE characters. 

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Did you read this back to yourself?  She had just witnessed Mozgus torturing a mother of a diseased/starving child (to which her first reaction was to look away, until pressured to look).  And before that when the possessed wild dogs attacked and the horse attempted to rape her the foundation for her understanding this world was shaken, only to have it blown apart when she herself was possessed.

It's odd you think that wouldn't affect a person...

I wrote this in my last post, although it was posted after you had written yours;

Quote from: RedDevilFC
See, I just don't see it as being this dramatic and over the top.  I know the manga made it out that way, but why, oh WHY do the events of Albion affect not only her religious leanings, but her character too?

After all, her horrible personality is a product of poor, permissive parenting.  It has nothing to do with her world view.
 

Quote from: CnC
I'm surprised in a story about demon gods, men with 6 foot swords, demons, ghosts, witches, trolls (list goes on), you take so much issue with whether or not the development of two of the characters depicted is logical.

Probably the first real point you've made.  Unfortunately, that's also what I like about Berserk; there's an internal consistency despite the over-the-top nature of the events therein.

Quote from: CnC
Quite frankly the actions and motives of these characters has been explained over and over to you at this point (if you must ignore everything I've said on the subject than at least pay attention to everyone else  :serpico:) and if you still don't see anything that would dissuade you of your OPINION, then you're lost.

Maybe you don't really understand what "evidence" or "proof" mean, but so far I haven't seen anything very convincing to show me why my views are incorrect.  I'm slightly disappointed by this; like I said, I expected my position to be blown to smithereens. 

Surprisingly, that hasn't happened, and it leads me to believe there's a lot of truth in what I originally wrote. 

On another note, you guys have really given my fingers one hell of a workout.  If it wasn't for the fact that I used to write in my spare time, I would be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of responses.