Author Topic: The Brand and the Symbol  (Read 10045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15898
  • Karma: 475
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
The Brand and the Symbol
« on: August 21, 2001, 11:23:27 AM »
This is an old little something I came up with many months ago. I posted it on BSOM, but I really truly dont remember  what we decided on in the end of the debate. And besides, its something that mystifies me every time I think about it. I will begin:

this is the brand worn by Guts, Casca, and dont forget, the bodies at the bottom of the tower of rebirth



this is the symbol used by the religion that Mozgus + Farnese follow, the Holy See.


this is what it looks like if you extend the 'brand' down


If we were to zoom in to the crest of the brand on the middle segment, we would see the image above: A three pronged head


This is the full symbol of the religion...Notice how it resembles the brand, with the only difference being that the hawk is emphasized instead of the other branches.


Now, what is the significance of this? Well it could mean a number of things. ONE of which I will bring up. The most absurd and strange thing about the similarity here is the existance of the structure of the brand existing during Gaiseric's time. To clarify, assuming the bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth were the sacrifices made for Void, when he sacrificed Gaiserics empire (a LARGE assumption, but just accept it for the debate) then that would make Griffith 'special' as far back as 1000 years ago.

The even stranger part of this debate is if one was arguing that those bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth (click here for image : http://www.skullknight.net/manga/gaiseric/09.jpg ) were for Gaiserics sacrifice to become a God Hand (and of cource, later on be reborn), then that would ALSO make Griffith 'special', since the symbol of the Hawk existed before even the 'previous' God Hand.

When I say 'previous God Hand' I mean the fact that according to the legend, God sent down 4(or 5) angels to punish Gaiserics empire. Since the Shoku only happens once every 216 years, you can use my handy-dandy God Hand Timeline (click here: http://www.skullknight.net/spec/time.htm ) to argue that the current God Hand are 'new' and that the 4(or 5) angels sent down 1000 years ago, are the 'old' God Hand.

Now, the first thing thats going to happen in this debate is Olivier saying "walter...your assuming a LOT" and I realize this, however, the point remains that Griffith was 'special' over 1000 years ago. My question is, why?

PS : The obvious answer is that by the time those sacrifices were made at the Tower of Rebirth, Gaiseric had already been reborn, hence the beginning of the 1000 year countdown to the 'once in a 1000 year' shoku. But...is there more than that? I think so. Would that make the brand used before Gaiseric a completely different symbol? Perhaps it was the rose-thorn he uses on his shield? (blatant speculation).


PPS : Readers Digest Version : "Why does the brand of 1000 years ago have the Hawk symbol; why is Griffith special? AND what is the meaning behind the structure of the brand?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Ger24

Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2001, 12:08:44 PM »
The religious symbol looks like maybe the hawk or falcon of light fly above the the other to branches maybe represent evil and the god hand brand has the hawk smaller getting taken over by evil.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Asir

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • that facil is to die, that dificil is to be born
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2001, 12:50:32 PM »
Miura sama pleases of mixing in great measurement the different raices of the European culture, marks it of the sacrifice without doubt is a simulacion of the caduceo of Asclepios, simbol of Apolo and sign of the health and the life.

two snakes intertwined upon a baculo, marks it upper representing to a fowl raising the flight that seems a halcon can represent to the Fenix, sign of the renaissance, in short, segun my interpretation, marks represents it that that reborns over evil that holds it to the ground or to its sins, and the final result is a to be purified that represents the will of the heavens The wickedness that in the ground, represented by the two snakes.

the concept of the four angeles is a deformation of the four riders of the apocalipsis, which they are sent by the will of God to punish to the ground, segun the Apocalipsis, an angel took a mountain of fire and sink it in the sea



That it seems a great deal to the castle of Gaiseric wrapped in flames, podriamos to say, that Miura I take himself the creative liberty to be able to simulate a small one Apocalipsis occurred in the past of the series, that brings the consequences of the future.

Here he fits to mention something, if the legend of Gaiseric he is certain and this he agrees with the same one Griffit, then, this tendra the same end that Gaiseric? all to return a cycle? I think that the obvious resemblance among the same simbols alone represents the influence of the hand of God upon the humanity in this was and its consequences

AsŪr
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
" Nessun Maggior Dolore che recordasi del tempo felice nella Miseria"

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2001, 02:23:27 PM »
I really donít think there is any connection between the brand and the symbol at all.

The symbol is borrowed from the staff of Aesculapius, the Roman god of healing. Itís a staff with wings and two mystical snakes coiled around it, itís also the symbol of many modern day medical associations.


Look familiar?

Another reason Miura may have chosen it is because Aesculapius become so skilled with the art of healing that eventually he was able to bring the dead back to life.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15898
  • Karma: 475
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2001, 02:31:57 PM »
Wanna know something funny? Right after I made this post i went to get some gas and run errands. I went to pee at the gas station, and on a medical cabinet in the bathroom they had that symbol. Of cource, I had seen it before, but it really struck me then.

I catch your drift Griffith, but do you think thats all there is to this? Anyone else?


PS: BTW good find
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2001, 02:59:28 PM »
Quote

I catch your drift Griffith, but do you think thats all there is to this?

There is a lot more to it actually, and it has very interesting implications when connected with Berserk.

The symbol, although recognized as the symbol of Aesculapius, is not the original symbol, the true staff of Aesculapius only has a single snake around it with no wings. †The symbol above is in fact the symbol of the Cadeuceus, and itís the staff of Mercury (Hermes). †The symbols were confused when news publications started using the symbol and medical groups thinking it to be Aesculaiusí symbol adopted it as well. †The legend behind the symbol of Cadeuceus is that Mercury threw his staff between two fighting snakes at which point the snakes stop their battle and both coil around the staff. †It represents a messenger, a bringer of peace during times of war. †Sound like anything from Berserk? ;)

-Griffith

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15898
  • Karma: 475
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2001, 03:03:26 PM »
Well...sort of. However, I think not only you, but also Asir are bringing too much ancient history into the world of Berserk. While Berserk may draw parallels to some historical events, how often has it been anything more than a mere stylistic influence?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2001, 03:14:56 PM »
I'm not saying it's actual historical events, just symbols and their meanings, Greek and Roman mythology. †Plus, Miura not only appears to use this symbol, but story elements that fit the meaning of the symbol exactly. †The Hawk of Light, Griffithís rebirth, his intervening in the war and possibly bringing peace to all of Midland.

-Griffith

Offline Olivier Hague

  • Chairman of the Board
  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Karma: 10
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2001, 05:05:54 PM »
Quote

I really donít think there is any connection between the brand and the symbol at all.


And I really think there is. †;)

Look at the "brand" from the "Prototype"... Miura changed it in the actual series, but judging from it, the connection with the Symbol of the Holy See becomes rather obvious...

Also, look at the pagan god's "tool" (volume 2, page 160)...

My take on the suject: the brand symbolizes the Idea and Griffith.
The symbols of the different religions or beliefs on Earth "reflect" this as well. They think that their gods are different, but they all serve the Idea, actually, because these religions and beliefs were created by the God Hands, just like the God Hands spread the word about the "Falcon of Light", recently.

Just my theory. †;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Ger24

Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2001, 05:43:20 PM »
Oliver thats exactly what I was thinking Mozgus' god is actually Idea they just believe they are worshiping a diffrent god but in fact they are worshiping the God Hand. The symbols were probably changed to make it look less evil.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2001, 05:55:25 PM »
That sounds very good and the symbols could very well mean that in addition to their original meaning, but you really donít think they have anything to do with the Greek & Roman symbols? †In essence, Miura somehow coincidentally recreated symbols that precede him by 3000 years and the 3000 year old symbols also just happen to fit the current themes of the story perfectly, but it was all completely unintentional?

-Griffith

P.S. That really is a great theory, Olivier, why didn't you until now to post it?!?!?!

Offline Wereallmad

  • Of the Nexus
  • ***
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2001, 05:58:25 PM »

Quote


Also, look at the pagan god's "tool" (volume 2, page 160)...



Hahaha, tool. Just call it a penis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

  • Chairman of the Board
  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Karma: 10
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2001, 06:06:39 PM »
Quote

but you really donít think they have anything to do with the Greek & Roman symbols? †In essence, Miura somehow coincidentally recreated symbols that precede him by 3000 years and the 3000 year old symbols also just happen to fit the current themes of the story perfectly, but it was all completely unintentional?


I never said that. The brand was probably designed after the Greek symbol by Miura, indeed...
I just wanted to say that I believe there _is_ an intentional connection between the brand and the other religious symbols seen in Berserk.

Quote
P.S. That really is a great theory, Olivier,


Thanks. ^^

Quote
why did you until now to post it?


Actually, I posted it a while ago on the Black Sun Over Midland message board... ^^;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2001, 06:30:13 PM »
Quote

I never said that. The brand was probably designed after the Greek symbol by Miura, indeed...
I just wanted to say that I believe there _is_ an intentional connection between the brand and the other religious symbols seen in Berserk.

I know, but you never said you believed though either, just making sure. ;D
Also, when I said that the Brand and Falcon Symbol are not related I meant that I don't think he just created one as a derivative of the other (another really bad choice of words on my part). †I think the original meaning of the Falcon symbol(Greek/Roman) is very important though.
Quote

Actually, I posted it a while ago on the Black Sun Over Midland message board... ^^;
Hmmm, I guess I forgot it or you posted it during that period I disappeared for a month. †You should really post all your uber-theories together in one topic someday. ;)

-Griffith

Offline eintrigga

  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 261
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Today's Yamaba?
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2001, 06:53:38 PM »
don't forget the concept of Fate is the quintessenial part of Greek/Roman mythology. even the greatest gods must bow to "fate"

just read the Iliad -- Go Diomedes Go!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start ....sh*t!

-- Gradius III

paradiselost

  • Guest
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2001, 08:12:35 AM »
I totally agree with you, Oliver, in your theory...

beeing myself a roman, I can tell at the same that all Griffith said about the legend of Mercury is true...

...imagine that symbol you said, Griffith....that's the one for medicine too...

...don't you all believe that it could be a paraphrase of the fact that The Falcon of Light come to carry out all the bad things in the Midlands and in all the world, like a "magic" human medicine?

...think about it...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Asir

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • that facil is to die, that dificil is to be born
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2001, 09:33:52 AM »
Certain of Mur, simbolo of originally of was of caduceo of that of Hermes, mensajero of commerce from of the God of God of of The Y.

caduceo of that of relates of itself reasons against of two by of Asclepios, originally of snakes OR of the AN ALONE SNAKE, call of mounstro of was Onu Piton, WHICH VIVIA IN THE DELFOS, threatened of this an apolo of thensettlers AND of their Febo, solar AND protective divinity of death of gave of it that men The, I purify themselves crime their to clean pra, oraculo celebrate upon placing piticos AND play calls instauro The of where temple in Delfos Onu apoueta snake inhabited it, that by a visions tenian that sacerdotizas lasPitonizas of they called of it of themselves of temple of their of in, inevitable of profecias of their ofOf acquaintance of was of temple of the, realizacion of its of even in incomprensibles same old of almost of enigmas of in of hidden same old.


Asclepios, son of medic of was of Apolo Onu I arrive against that of ability of such a formula of one of creating life against of that of devolvia of which of the a dead persons of The, unworthy of this a Hades, here that of same Zeus, because Onu that mortal of liberties of tomoba of himself correspondian alone a God of The, here I kill AND here constelation of volvio.

That of in of snakes of snake OR of it to represent despicable of he is able of scepter from of the a PITON, the that of while oh originally that caduceo tied of the, alados of footwear of so many of representing of he is able The of hermes, presence of that of as of heaven from of that of divinity of one of as of Apolo.




ŅExample by, if of representing of he is able that of Gaiseric here we compare history against of the true one of humanity of the? reunio of gradually that of barbaro of leader of seems of clothing of its by Onu a nations neither the all, Celtic germanos AND barbaros motives represents armor its that placed, shield its but head tied that of gorgona the, Greek exactly simbolo, large roundAnd they were Greek shields although The, rentagulares narrow Romen The AND, trasero barbaro but seems this AND a Roman was the, Gaiseric represents a to Cease, neither an Alejandro Great, less A GREAT DEAL of niUn cristianizado of barbaro of king of algun, sense of this of in, Gaiseric, to represent of is able a world of that of that of world of leader of that oh always of expected.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
" Nessun Maggior Dolore che recordasi del tempo felice nella Miseria"

Offline Asir

  • Of the World
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • that facil is to die, that dificil is to be born
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2001, 10:27:31 AM »
other similar simbol...........





the brand repeat
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
" Nessun Maggior Dolore che recordasi del tempo felice nella Miseria"

paradiselost

  • Guest
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2001, 01:43:25 PM »

...it seems that IDEA is everywhere, guys...maybe it's better we'll go immediatly to control our "asses"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline White Hawk

  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2001, 11:15:05 AM »
Gaiseric = Karl The Great (or however it translates)
world of berserk = medieval europe mixed up
Guts = a certain nordic god of berserkers
tudor and midland = france and england in the 100 years war
griffith = hmmmm, can't relate

But, the religion in berserk is clearly part of god hand's schemes. It connects not only through the above mentioned, but also in the prophecies. Think about it... :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
Sometimes the wings of fallen dragons refuse to give up the sky.

Offline Olivier Hague

  • Chairman of the Board
  • Of the Vortex
  • ****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Karma: 10
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2001, 11:24:01 AM »
Quote

Gaiseric = Karl The Great (or however it translates)


??
Don't you think that Gaiseric = Gaiseric?

Quote
Guts = a certain nordic god of berserkers


Odin??

Quote
But, the religion in berserk is clearly part of god hand's schemes. It connects not only through the above mentioned, but also in the prophecies. Think about it... :P


Er... Thanks? †:-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Wereallmad

  • Of the Nexus
  • ***
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2001, 12:01:40 PM »
The real Gaiseric was a pretty powerfull warlord (king of the vandals), but he wasn't nearly powerfull enough to bring about a unification of an entire continent, let alone the world.

Karl the great, Carlos Magnos, or Charlemagne (whichever you wanna call him), was pretty powerfull. He unified a large chunk of Europe, but honestly, he couldn't really fit as gaiseric.

Not nearly enough people died under his reign.

And, it just really doesn't fit, when there was a real Gaiseric and all.

About Guts being Odin, certainly not, I'd say. Thor might be a bit closer, but even that sounds weird.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2001, 12:01:40 PM »
Quote

Gaiseric = Karl The Great (or however it translates)

I think of him more like Alexander the Great, just because I relate Gaiseric's era to the Hellenistic Age.

-Griffith

Offline Wereallmad

  • Of the Nexus
  • ***
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2001, 12:02:26 PM »

Quote


Alexander the Great?

-Griffith



..............
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

  • The Millennium Falcon
  • Falconian
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 9698
  • Karma: 230
  • Gender: Male
  • My posts are better.
Re: The Brand and the Symbol
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2001, 12:10:43 PM »
Quote

..............

There, itís more specific now. ;)

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »