Author Topic: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3  (Read 9343 times)

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Offline willowhugger

Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« on: October 10, 2008, 02:30:50 AM »


Berserk Manga 3


You know the drill guys, share and discuss your thoughts.  Feel free to analyze or talk about specific issues.  Just remember that there's no spoilers allowed beyond the latest Dark Horse books.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 02:51:40 PM by willowhugger »

Offline Cronus

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2008, 11:39:59 AM »
What I personally liked about this one is how it truly delves into how ruthless Guts is.  But, it also shows that while he hangs tough, he does have his humanity and lives in despair.  He is nearly at the point of death and part of him appears to be actively seeking it as he keeps going at the Count.  Of course, this is pretty typical Guts behavior to us now but at the time of this release, I'm sure it would have seemed a little off.  We don't know the "why" behind Guts yet and I think that keeps the reader hooked.

And even though he is broken and beaten, you get a bit of the sarcastic and sadistic side of Guts.  You *know* he's practically losing his mind during this encounter as he tears the Count up in front of his daughter.  I think though that in a way, that helped to save Theresia's life - the Count perhaps came to realize the folly of his becoming an immortal slave to the Godhand, and he has a chance to live on if he sacrifices her, but does not.  That is how I read into it during the scene when he is presented with the choice.

Though one thing that kind of bothered me in this volume, though minute - the Godhand remind me of sports commentators  :void:

Definitely a good volume, and a good 'setup' of the comic.  I only wish the animated version had been like this, or I had had the chance to read it in English sooner.

Edit: and one more thing - Theresia.  She is pretty pissed off, and considering how Miura brought back so many elements later on of which some were subtle and some were not, who's to say Theresia may not come back for a real shot at revenge?  Perhaps under Griffith?
All is within the flow of causality.

Offline Proj2501

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2008, 05:35:03 PM »
I brought up the same Theresia theory. Griff made a funny sketch of it.

Offline willowhugger

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 03:57:45 AM »
Wow, we're having trouble coming up with comments on this one (Or we're all just insanely busy like I've been).

Personally, this finishes off one of my favorite plots in the Manga.  The entirety of the story works from pretty much top to bottom and comes off as utterly perfect.  What really works for me is that Guts doesn't actually win[/i] this battle.  In fact, I pretty much believe it was a stalemate.  Certainly, the Count was pretty much dead but Guts was on his last legs as well. 

Really, by the time he launches himself on the God Hand, he can barely stand and is getting by on sheer hatred alone.  It's nice to see the villains of the piece but I was honestly surprised that we saw them so early when they did show up.  I didn't know what to initially make of Femto and their causal dismissal of Guts threat.

I do confess, humanizing the Count worked very well for me.

I also loved the art in the orgy scene.

Offline bitterbeings

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 01:46:06 AM »
I'm pretty late on this, but I think these threads are a good idea.

I too enjoy this segment a lot, but I don't understand why the whole Godhand ordeal suddenly comes to an end. It also felt strange that Griffith didn't show any attachment to Guts, as if he didn't acknowledging their past. He kinda just had that same apostle approach of "He's just a petty mortal..blah blah blah" and didn't really have anything personal to say to Guts.

Offline noni_moon

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 08:44:49 AM »
Quote
It also felt strange that Griffith didn't show any attachment to Guts, as if he didn't acknowledging their past. He kinda just had that same apostle approach of "He's just a petty mortal..blah blah blah" and didn't really have anything personal to say to Guts.

Well, keep in mind that back then 'Griffith' was Femto. Who was a sort of manifestation of the worst part of Griffith, the purity of the evil in his heart.. and evil is merely one aspect of a person's whole.


Even though they are one in the same, notice the obvious differences between Femto and the reincarnated Griffith:-

Femto = treated Guts with intense hatred and disgust, to the point were he raped Casca in front of him just to spite him and viewed Guts as a 'useless human' and 'only good as a sacrifice'. absolutely no mention of their past relationship or even his past life as a human being.

reincarnated Griffith = who and what he really are is any one's guess at this point, but one thing is made clear about him.. he is NOT merely 'Femto on earth'! look how he reminded Guts of their past relationship and his choice of words "this is the kind of MAN that I am, you should know this better than any one eles", and let's not forget that he actually bothered to go see Guts again on the hill of swords to checks if he still had any feelings for him (acknowledging that Guts had an affect on him in the first place). Does all of this REALLY sound like something Femto might say or do??

Offline OmegaSeamaster

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 08:49:00 PM »
Can anyone explain why Vargas went to hell, as he seemed a pretty decent man?

Also, if you lose your individuality in the vortex of evil souls, are we to deduce that Vargas wasn't there long enough to have lost his individuality yet?


Offline Walter

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 08:51:16 PM »
Can anyone explain why Vargas went to hell, as he seemed a pretty decent man?

Also, if you lose your individuality in the vortex of evil souls, are we to deduce that Vargas wasn't there long enough to have lost his individuality yet?
He wasn't exactly a saint. He lived just for revenge. And as we learn in vol 3, those involved in the affairs of apostles/God Hand end up in the vortex of souls.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline OmegaSeamaster

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 10:55:08 PM »
I noted that too, but wasn't sure how far one had to go to be "associated."

I'm assuming Theresia for example would be destined to the vortex just by virtue of being the count's daughter, as would all of the count's victims.

Talk about getting a bum deal, first you're murdered, then you go straight to hell regardless of living a virtuous life or not.



Offline Groovy Metal Fist

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2009, 01:04:53 AM »
I doubt that Theresia will make an appearance in a later volume. After Guts destroyed her world and innocence, she would have more than enough reason to dedicate the rest of her life to revenge and it would be consistent with Guts being haunted by the past. However, not many years have passed since the first eclipse (maybe around 4 years, considering the age of Guts's and Casca's child) and the series could end before Theresia is even old enough to carry out such a difficult plan. Also, a homeless, child orphan could have been killed very quickly in this criminal, political exploiter, disease, and monster infested world. In addition, Theresia's return would be nothing compared to what Guts has been through already, so it's hard to see it adding much to the story.

Offline slan69

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 03:11:09 AM »
Who knows Theresia could possibly return as an apostle just like her daddy  :zodd:
Quote -

Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life, death. Everything is there… This is human... This is demonic!

~Slan~

Offline Groovy Metal Fist

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 05:40:12 AM »
Who knows Theresia could possibly return as an apostle just like her daddy  :zodd:

Another apostle easter egg. I hadn't thought of that.

I brought up the same Theresia theory. Griff made a funny sketch of it.

Would you happen to have a link to that sketch?

Well, keep in mind that back then 'Griffith' was Femto. Who was a sort of manifestation of the worst part of Griffith, the purity of the evil in his heart.. and evil is merely one aspect of a person's whole.

I've heard that said a few times before, but I don't know how other people reached this conclusion. How do we know that Femto could not have been just been Griffith in a new body trying to escape from his feelings of powerlessness, guilt, and hurt by punishing what he thought was its primary source?

In Berserk, there is no better way to open up the 'Golden Age' arc than with decomposed corpses hanging off of a leafless tree and a crying baby lying in a pool of blood. In this arc, we get to see just what kind of person could become the obsessive fighter strong enough to defeat giant apostles. Ever since the age of six, Guts has had to fight for survival and to prove his worth. Guts's obsession with fighting only got worse when he was raped by Donovan. It was his most traumatic experience (yet) which he couldn't escape because he was too weak. It also explains why Guts has a difficult time warming up to or having faith in people. The first community he was a part of let him suffer rape and later wanted him dead. The last one (before the eclipse) was too weak to survive and its leader damned him to inescapable horrors.

His overall experience with his first mercenary band also shows just how horrific Guts's first encounter with the Godhand was. Ever since it happened, Guts has flashed back to the encounter repeatedly and in heavy detail, yet not once in the Conviction and Millenium Falcon arcs has he been seen recalling his rape as a child, discovery that his father figure was his pimp, or killing his father figure in self defense and having to run away from the only community he knew to escape death. The encounter completely eclipsed the worst parts of his first 9 years and became Guts's new punishment for being too weak.

I believe volume 9 had referred back to the time where Guts got medicine from Gambino because like Guts's passionate sex with Casca, it was one of the few times where Guts felt loved and one of the few times Gambino was not completely heinous.

Miura certainly made Gambino evil but just human enough to keep Guts alive and prevent the story from having a huge, logical flaw.

It's interesting to note that the some of the emotionally worst or most dangerous events in Guts's life have left him with some glaring, permanent, physical scar, mark, or injury. The first time Gambino attacked Guts, he received a permanent scar on his nose. The eclipse left Guts with a clawed out eye, a severed arm, and the brand. Guts's second encounter with Slan that cleared any misconception that Guts was anywhere close to being a worthy opponent of the Godhand left him with a massive scar his upper back. The first time Guts went truly berserk in his new armor left him with a bleached patch of hair.

This is also the start of Guts's life seeming to be controlled by odd, random chance events: just so happening to have his parents slain, just happening to be found soon enough not to die, happening to run into the Band of the Hawk, being rescued by Skull Knight just in time, and happening to meet people who happen to be capable fighters, healers, and witches who also want to join Guts. That type of person is quite hard to come by since most people would not want to deal with his brand.

I still wonder why Miura chose not to explain Guts's biological parents or why he was under a tree of corpses in the first place. He may choose to come back to this event later and reveal something shocking about Guts's origin. It's almost inhuman how Guts held his own against not just one, but an army of apostles for so long without magic or particularly remarkable equipment. I'm just speculating, though.

Would anyone happen to know where the omen of a baby born from a corpse being bad luck came from?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:36:23 AM by seppuku »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 01:04:05 PM »
I too enjoy this segment a lot, but I don't understand why the whole Godhand ordeal suddenly comes to an end.

The Count and his immediate surroundings where summoned to the God Hand by the beherit. After this matter was settled (by the Count's refusal), the ceremony ended.

It also felt strange that Griffith didn't show any attachment to Guts, as if he didn't acknowledging their past. He kinda just had that same apostle approach of "He's just a petty mortal..blah blah blah" and didn't really have anything personal to say to Guts.

Well that's because Femto is on a completely different level now. He smugly taunts Guts, but his detachment is only natural. And the extent to which he can consider Guts a "mere mortal" goes far beyond that of an apostle. Members of the God Hand are effectively much higher level beings.

Well, keep in mind that back then 'Griffith' was Femto. Who was a sort of manifestation of the worst part of Griffith, the purity of the evil in his heart.. and evil is merely one aspect of a person's whole.

It's not really like that. Femto isn't just one side of the former Griffith. He's a slightly different being, but essentially he's the same person. Only, you know, evil.

Femto = treated Guts with intense hatred and disgust, to the point were he raped Casca in front of him just to spite him and viewed Guts as a 'useless human' and 'only good as a sacrifice'. absolutely no mention of their past relationship or even his past life as a human being.

Raping Casca to hurt Guts was an acknowledgement of their former relationship. And I don't think he felt an "intense disgust" for him either.

reincarnated Griffith = who and what he really are is any one's guess at this point, but one thing is made clear about him.. he is NOT merely 'Femto on earth'!

Griffith didn't come back to the world like nothing happened. It's Femto who received a corporeal body, who was incarnated in the flesh, as before he had only been an ethearal entity. As far as we know, the only reason the new Griffith isn't just Femto on earth is because he overtook the body of Guts & Casca's son, and because something of the child remains within him. I know you like Griffith, but don't be mistaken about this: he's the bad guy now.

let's not forget that he actually bothered to go see Guts again on the hill of swords to checks if he still had any feelings for him (acknowledging that Guts had an affect on him in the first place). Does all of this REALLY sound like something Femto might say or do??

It's not incompatible. He specifically says he wanted to see what he felt now that he had a fleshly body. And his answer was pretty clear.

Can anyone explain why Vargas went to hell, as he seemed a pretty decent man?

Not decent enough, apparently. That's what we get from seeing him in there. It doesn't take being a psychopath to end in the Vortex of Souls.

Also, if you lose your individuality in the vortex of evil souls, are we to deduce that Vargas wasn't there long enough to have lost his individuality yet?

It could be, but I don't think so. Rather I think that while we could still recognize his face, he was already just a mindless part of a whole.

And as we learn in vol 3, those involved in the affairs of apostles/God Hand end up in the vortex of souls.
I noted that too, but wasn't sure how far one had to go to be "associated."

I'm assuming Theresia for example would be destined to the vortex just by virtue of being the count's daughter, as would all of the count's victims.

Actually, Slan just tells the Count that it's what happens to those who associate with evil. And she says so to him because as an apostle he'll end up in the Vortex of Souls. It doesn't mean that everyone that's even been near an apostle will go to hell. I don't believe it would apply to Theresia for example, and someone that's been a saint all his life wouldn't end up in the Vortex either.

There is an exception to this rule however: branded people. When someone is branded by the God Hand, they are doomed regardless of who they are and what they've done.

I doubt that Theresia will make an appearance in a later volume. After Guts destroyed her world and innocence, she would have more than enough reason to dedicate the rest of her life to revenge and it would be consistent with Guts being haunted by the past. However, not many years have passed since the first eclipse (maybe around 4 years, considering the age of Guts's and Casca's child) and the series could end before Theresia is even old enough to carry out such a difficult plan. Also, a homeless, child orphan could have been killed very quickly in this criminal, political exploiter, disease, and monster infested world. In addition, Theresia's return would be nothing compared to what Guts has been through already, so it's hard to see it adding much to the story.

Good point overall, but I'd remark that Theresia doesn't actually have any valid reason to waste her life trying to get revenge from Guts. She was unhappy before, living in a perpetually closed room, and she despised her father and feared him. Her outburst in the end doesn't mean much considering what she had just been through. She'd discovered that her father was a disgusting monster and her mother had been depraved... And her father eventually sacrificed himself for her. She was in shock, confused, sad and her whole world had just ended. It was easy to blame Guts at the time, especially considering the fact he was the only one left alive. But nothing says she didn't change her mind shortly after. Maybe she even regretted her cruel words to him, who knows?

Who knows Theresia could possibly return as an apostle just like her daddy  :zodd:

Yeah, flunky apostle #1254 to be slain without a second thought. That'd be just great.

I've heard that said a few times before, but I don't know how other people reached this conclusion. How do we know that Femto could not have been just been Griffith in a new body trying to escape from his feelings of powerlessness, guilt, and hurt by punishing what he thought was its primary source?

Uhh... Griffith was transformed into a new being: Femto. And it just so happens that the process he went through involves a lot of evilness. That's about it. If you want details, check out volumes 12 and 13. Basically, Femto is a new, evil being that was born out of Griffith's old self.

In Berserk, there is no better way to open up the 'Golden Age' arc than with decomposed corpses hanging off of a leafless tree and a crying baby lying in a pool of blood. In this arc, we get to see just what kind of person could become the obsessive fighter strong enough to defeat giant apostles. Ever since the age of six, Guts has had to fight for survival and to prove his worth.

Ever since he was born, actually. :slan:

Guts's obsession with fighting only got worse when he was raped by Donovan. It was his most traumatic experience (yet) which he couldn't escape because he was too weak.

Of course it was the most traumatic experience he'd had at the time. He was just a kid after all. But it's been a long time since Guts last thought of Donovan. Casca healed that wound, and like you pointed out yourself, the Occultation ceremony left an even bigger mark on him. Anyway, I don't think we're shown that event (his rape) as fueling an obsession with fighting. He had to fight as a mercenary to live anyway, and that didn't change.

The encounter completely eclipsed the worst parts of his first 9 years and became Guts's new punishment for being too weak.

I don't remember seeing Guts blame himself for having been too weak...

Guts's second encounter with Slan that cleared any misconception that Guts was anywhere close to being a worthy opponent of the Godhand left him with a massive scar his upper back.

He has two astral wounds, actually: one in front and one in back.

happening to meet people who happen to be capable fighters, healers, and witches who also want to join Guts. That type of person is quite hard to come by since most people would not want to deal with his brand.

Guts has also met a lot of people who were useless to him and who didn't want to associate with him (and vice versa). I would say that he was bound to find worthy people after a while (not to mention that he was forced into accepting their company...). I wouldn't say that he's been lucky in that regard, except maybe for the fact that Puck stuck around despite Guts' harsh treatments.

I still wonder why Miura chose not to explain Guts's biological parents or why he was under a tree of corpses in the first place. He may choose to come back to this event later and reveal something shocking about Guts's origin.

I don't think Miura will ever explain it, and I don't think there's anything shocking about it either. It only asserts the fact that Guts has been a struggler, a survivor ever since he was born. He had a harsh birth, a harsh childhood, a harsh life. That's what makes him unique. Who cares about his biological parents? It's a detail of very little importance considering the fact they've had no impact on his life at all.

Would anyone happen to know where the omen of a baby born from a corpse being bad luck came from?

From Miura's imagination, as far as I know. You can't actually be born from a corpse, so the birth had to occur simultaneously to the mother's death. That makes the probability of such an occurrence extremely low.

Offline Groovy Metal Fist

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 07:08:29 PM »
Quote
Uhh... Griffith was transformed into a new being: Femto. And it just so happens that the process he went through involves a lot of evilness. That's about it. If you want details, check out volumes 12 and 13. Basically, Femto is a new, evil being that was born out of Griffith's old self.

I mean that Femto was Griffith, mentally. I know that it was a different body, born of his old one.

Quote
I don't remember seeing Guts blame himself for having been too weak...

It wasn't explicitly written. But Guts does hate weakness, weakness cost him the most during the eclipse, and talking specifically about weakness evoked a lot of strong, negative emotions at a time when the eclipse was practically the only thing on his mind.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 07:14:54 PM »
I mean that Femto was Griffith, mentally. I know that it was a different body, born of his old one.

Well I didn't talk about a body specifically, did I? :slan:

It wasn't explicitly written. But Guts does hate weakness, weakness cost him the most during the eclipse, and talking specifically about weakness evoked a lot of strong, negative emotions at a time when the eclipse was practically the only thing on his mind.

It's true that he dislikes weakness in general. But I think what cost him the most during the Eclipse was Griffith's betrayal, plain and simple (as shown by his now extreme hatred of Griffith). It's not like he could have won against hundreds of apostles and the whole God Hand. Not him nor anyone else. He never stood a chance.

Offline Groovy Metal Fist

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 09:49:30 PM »
I know that I'm not the first to say that I like these threads. It seems like the bulk of the literary discussion on this site is reserved for episodes that haven't even been released in a Japanese volume yet and most topics in the Manga Mausoleum, Character Cove, Berserk Miscellaneous, and Speculation Nation also have a high risk of spoilers from volumes 30-34. These threads were a unique opportunity for those of us who prefer to receive our Berserk through the official release and by the volume to discuss it in a safe environment. How many people would be up for restarting these threads, but giving two weeks instead of one week since many said that they were strapped for time? If there are enough of you out there, who feels that they have the time, literary insight, and writing ability to lead these threads?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 07:30:16 AM »
How many people would be up for restarting these threads, but giving two weeks instead of one week since many said that they were strapped for time? If there are enough of you out there, who feels that they have the time, literary insight, and writing ability to lead these threads?

There is actually no need to define a specific period of time for a thread. They can run over years if needed. If you feel like discussing a volume in particular, you can just make a thread for it and the people interested will reply. :serpico:

However I should point out that these threads were never meant to be spoiler free. The Dark Horse one we have is the only thread that was created with that in mind so far.

Offline OmegaSeamaster

Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 09:51:57 PM »

Actually, Slan just tells the Count that it's what happens to those who associate with evil. And she says so to him because as an apostle he'll end up in the Vortex of Souls. It doesn't mean that everyone that's even been near an apostle will go to hell. I don't believe it would apply to Theresia for example, and someone that's been a saint all his life wouldn't end up in the Vortex either.

There is an exception to this rule however: branded people. When someone is branded by the God Hand, they are doomed regardless of who they are and what they've done.


Thanks for this explanation. The line just left me with a lot of questions.

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Re: Berserk the Manga Re-read Thread Vol. 3
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2009, 07:41:58 PM »
Pretty messed up to know that Judeau ended up in hell. That's just NOT FAIR  :judo:

Anyway, if volume 3 teaches you one thing is that there is still free will in the Berserk universe, causality or not.