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Offline Griffith

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Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« on: February 17, 2009, 11:19:10 PM »
When episodes of Vagabond are compiled into a volume, new pages are sometimes added, but also, old pages and panels are touched up or redone altogether. The results vary, it can be very subjective, and can change the entire feeling of a scene, which is why I think Inoue does it, more than anything to do with the quality of the art itself. Anyway, I've got mixed feelings on the practice, and before I get to the latest in volume 28, and particularly Matahatchi, here's a prominent past example for me, from volume 22:

The context of this scene is that Denshichiro asks Musashi how his brother Seijuro fought and Musashi basically insults him and says that he was much stronger then Den, who is set to Duel Musashi in a few days. This is Den's reaction, first the original, then the retouch in the volume:




This REALLY jumped out at me when I saw it in the volume, and I didn't like it. I feel like it was meant to strengthen Den or at least make his reaction more neutral, but I feel like it robbed some of the natural emotion from the scene (Den having lost his brother and having it thrown two-fold in his face). I don't know, I've come around a bit on it since then, the emotion is there, but it's more subtle, and it's not like Den should look like he's going to start crying in front of Musashi.



In this scene, Matahatchi is revealed minus his "sophisticated urban style" facial hair and 'do:



What a nice looking boy. I really liked this panel. Then, in the volume...


Holy shit, what happened? Should he look uglier then he even used to without the facial hair, especially since it's supposed to represent his getting better? At first I thought this was another character! Didn't even look like Matahatchi to me, and quite honestly, it's the most I've felt sorry for him. I feel like his redemption has already taken a step back with this change, like Inoue is saying, "Not so fast!" Anyway, really bugged me, it's actually why I started this thread, as it was nice to see his more innocent looking face again, but now that's been replaced with a mongoloid...

In case you can't tell, I feel like it went from a solid B to a D-, but even in the process of making this thread, I'm starting to come around on the new more dynamic image... still, as with the Den example, I liked the old one to begin with, so it's a tough pill to swallow.



We'll end on a high note, at least from an art/retouch standpoint. Musashi has just been informed that due to his injuries he can live by the sword no longer. In close up behind him appears a smiling spirit of Ueda, who gave him the fateful wound, and then below that appears this panel.



And in the volume:


I like this change. I didn't even notice that the second Ueda ghost was missing until I thought about it, I think because of the angles and vibe of the new panel make his presence, or that feeling, even stronger (part of that may because I've already seen the other of course). And aside from doing that better, it just works on so many other levels the other one didn't touch. Bravo, Inoue.

Please give me your feedback on these agree or disagree, or any other panels, retouches, or new pages you have thoughts on.

Offline Walter

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 11:46:43 PM »
Hoo-boy that Matahachi change sure is ... just, wow. I wonder what exactly Inoue was thinking? His gaping, imbecile mouth hanging open like that just totally knocks down the new sophistication his character had earned in the preceding panels. "Not so fast" indeed.

Still, the more I look at it, and the pages surrounding it, I'm thinking it's meant to show a less passive Matahachi. The old panel looks a little forlorn or sedated. This one is, as you say, a more dynamic shot of how he's going to start back on the right path in earnest. Maybe that's what he was thinking? (Grabbing at straws here).

As for the final one, with the missing Ueda, it definitely is the better choice. The reader already has seen him, haunting Musashi, so the complete absence of him there in the background is just chilling. Also a very ballsy move by Inoue, to require the readers to make that connection to get the full effect of the scene. Kudos to him.

Anyway, thanks for compiling these Griff. Who knows how many more changes occur between chapter to volume, especially those prior to vol 21, when we started reading episodically.  All I know is that to me, the biggest addition to the volumes is the in-between chapter sketches. I love those little things  :serpico:
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Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 12:09:03 AM »
I like this change. I didn't even notice until I thought about it that the second Ueda ghost was missing, because I feel like because of the angles and vibe of the new panel that his presence or that feeling is even stronger (part of that may because I've already seen the other of course). And aside from doing that better, it just works on so many other levels the other one didn't touch. Bravo, Inoue.

Please give me your feedback on these agree or disagree, or any other panels, retouches, or new pages you have thoughts on.

I have to say out of all the changes the last one makes the most sense to me. I just don't see why it was really necessary to change the first two to something completely different.  :schierke:

Hoo-boy that Matahachi change sure is ... just, wow. I wonder what exactly Inoue was thinking? His gaping, imbecile mouth hanging open like that just totally knocks down the new sophistication his character had earned in the preceding panels. "Not so fast" indeed.
There's really nothing else that can be said about it. Even as 宮本 武蔵 pointed out it doesn't resemble the character at all.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2009, 10:40:04 AM »
Hoo-boy that Matahachi change sure is ... just, wow. I wonder what exactly Inoue was thinking? His gaping, imbecile mouth hanging open like that just totally knocks down the new sophistication his character had earned in the preceding panels. "Not so fast" indeed.

Still, the more I look at it, and the pages surrounding it, I'm thinking it's meant to show a less passive Matahachi. The old panel looks a little forlorn or sedated. This one is, as you say, a more dynamic shot of how he's going to start back on the right path in earnest. Maybe that's what he was thinking? (Grabbing at straws here).

In many ways it's a more impressive illustration, I just don't think it's a more impressive rendition of Matahatchi, or one that makes him look more impressive. I mean, to me he looks calm and enlightened in the original, though it's more subdued. Also, the new one doesn't coolly rectify his current age with his old look like the previous one did. I've gotten used it now, but still happy to have the old one for reference.

As for the final one...
What about the first one?

with the missing Ueda, it definitely is the better choice. The reader already has seen him, haunting Musashi, so the complete absence of him there in the background is just chilling. Also a very ballsy move by Inoue, to require the readers to make that connection to get the full effect of the scene. Kudos to him.

Agree totally. I also like how Otsu and Jotaro are in the shot, surrounding Musashi with the trappings of his possible domestication. Truly horrifying. =)

Anyway, thanks for compiling these Griff. Who knows how many more changes occur between chapter to volume, especially those prior to vol 21, when we started reading episodically.  All I know is that to me, the biggest addition to the volumes is the in-between chapter sketches. I love those little things  :serpico:

Yeah, they're brilliant too, it really adds a whole other layer and level to the storytelling. It's like the the series' subconscious.

Offline Walter

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2009, 02:41:34 PM »
I also like how Otsu and Jotaro are in the shot, surrounding Musashi with the trappings of his possible domestication. Truly horrifying. =)
This got an early morning lol out of me here at work. Thanks  :ganishka:

Quote
Yeah, they're brilliant too, it really adds a whole other layer and level to the storytelling. It's like the the series' subconscious.
I believe he does it with all his series, because I know Slam Dunk and REAL also have them, and they're in the exact same vein.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 09:59:53 AM »
This got an early morning lol out of me here at work. Thanks  :ganishka:
Happy to be of service.

I believe he does it with all his series, because I know Slam Dunk and REAL also have them, and they're in the exact same vein.

I'm glad, though part of me wishes it were unique to Vagabond, it's really a fantastic technique.

Hey, you still haven't commented on Den's retouch transformation, so he will continue to make this face.

Offline Walter

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 05:03:56 PM »
Hey, you still haven't commented on Den's retouch transformation, so he will continue to make this face.
Well, the change seems so arbitrary to me. True, the new expression seems to have a little more complexity of emotion, but I  honestly don't think former one was lacking any. I suppose it makes him look more stern and serious as opposed to just a heated look at Musashi for being crass.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond Retouches
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2009, 08:28:21 PM »
My interpretation is that it was changed because he was too soft in the original, but I thought it was totally appropriate.

Offline TheBranded1

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Mistakes or wacky pics you found in Vagabond
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 05:14:34 PM »

I made this thread to see more of you also find some spelling mistakes or some pic that you think is interesting or that may seem odd.
I found this three pics as I was rereading some volumes some days ago. Let's see what else we might find in future, and in recent published volumes since we might have not paid so much attention.



I just thought Ittosai's eyes were kinda odd.


Offline Walter

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Re: Mistakes or wacky pics you found in Vagabond
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 05:22:01 PM »
I'm unsure if its even a mistake, but one of my favorite odd moments is in Volume 21 - Masters of Meow  :guts:

I love it. Musashi making light of the situation and all.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 10:13:03 AM »
I decided to merge these threads since they're so similar, I also have some contributions that fall under Branded's criteria of mistakes or weird pics, possibly even future retouches! :slan:

First, a couple of hand jobs, wait, what?...


This image of Kohei after being manhandled by Kojiro. In the first shot on the right, his hand is a bit small, and compounding that, in the next shot it's a huge mitt that can practically cover his entire face! This wasn't fixed in the volume, and somewhere Miura is wanting to switch Tezuka prizes.

Next up is Ito...


Another case of small hand syndrome, almost baby hands in this case. Anyway, we'll see if it's changed or if it's just going to be another slightly wacky image. I mean, I still don't know why the ones that were retouched were and not these. It's almost like they're only changed to make them worse. =)

I've spotted plenty of unfortunate typos in the new printed volumes, though I don't mind them and they get worked out in later pressings I've noticed. There was one phrase that bothered for a time, Takuan in volume 29, "The folly of trying to enlighten others--it's worth nothing but the spittle from my own mouth. And even that comes to hit me back in the face."


A great line, but somewhat mangled as it probably should read, "And even that comes back to hit me in the face." I don't know, I don't read Japanese, but I can't imagine something in the original dictated it be written like that in English, but maybe so. You still get the idea, anyway.



And with 287 we've come full circle, Ittosai's baby hand (see above) is now...



...big enough to palm a basketball. HUEG! At least the discrepancy isn't in side by side panels like with Kohei.

Also, being seriously wounded really agrees with him, because he appears to have gotten younger. :guts:

Offline Eluvei

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 05:25:41 PM »
...big enough to palm a basketball. HUEG!

Yeah, it probably has something to do with his old habit of using basketball players as reference to Slam Dunk.  :troll:

Also, being seriously wounded really agrees with him, because he appears to have gotten younger. :guts:

 :ganishka:

Offline aufond

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 10:49:24 PM »
I remember seeing that small hand when I was reading it and being surprised Inoue let that one slip so late in his career.  If you want to see some really odd distortions, the early volumes of Slam Dunk (and especially works prior to that) are sometimes comically out of proportion.  You can really see his progress as an artist in Slam Dunk though.  The drawings in some of those later volumes are incredibly beautiful, almost on the level of Vagabond.  It's hard to believe, but I guess when you spend almost your entire life drawing, your bound to get really good, no matter how rough your early stuff was.

I'm sure everyone is well aware of Miura's development over the years with Berserk.  But even the prototype was pretty well drawn compared to Inoue's early works.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 12:02:32 AM »
I remember seeing that small hand when I was reading it and being surprised Inoue let that one slip so late in his career.

Well, he is drawing these at a rate to be released once a week, but I don't think that's a handicap either, I think it's that steady flow that really allows his work to flourish and be at it's best. He can't be overly deliberate, it all has to flow, and I think that takes his work to levels one couldn't achieve being overly deliberate (and vice versa, of course). There wouldn't be as many strange proportions, but it also might also lose that emotional immediacy, the sense of the moment, and that "it" quality. I think Inoue's at his best making inspired improvisations.

If you want to see some really odd distortions, the early volumes of Slam Dunk (and especially works prior to that) are sometimes comically out of proportion. You can really see his progress as an artist in Slam Dunk though. The drawings in some of those later volumes are incredibly beautiful, almost on the level of Vagabond.  It's hard to believe, but I guess when you spend almost your entire life drawing, your bound to get really good, no matter how rough your early stuff was.

Well, he was also working in a different style and genre with certain artistic conventions. His art has gotten much better, but he also has the freedom to expand his wings as much as he wants now.

I'm sure everyone is well aware of Miura's development over the years with Berserk.  But even the prototype was pretty well drawn compared to Inoue's early works.

I think Miura's style has a natural advantage in that regard because he's seemingly so meticulous and deliberate, so when he's on he makes flat out perfect pictures. I wish I didn't have to take off in a few minutes, I could go on about Inoue and Miura all day. If Inoue's like a virtuoso improvisational soloist, Miura is like a brilliant perfectionist composer.
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Offline aufond

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 12:58:55 AM »
Well, he is drawing these at a rate to be released once a week, but I don't think that's a handicap either, I think it's that steady flow that really allows his work to flourish and be at it's best. He can't be overly deliberate, it all has to flow, and I think that takes his work to levels one couldn't achieve being overly deliberate (and vice versa, of course). There wouldn't be as many strange proportions, but it also might also lose that emotional immediacy, the sense of the moment, and that "it" quality. I think Inoue's at his best making inspired improvisations.

Oh I completely agree.  If you've ever watched those videos of Inoue drawing Vagabond (which I'm sure you have), you can see how amazingly fast he gets them out.  He does a rough sketch, then dives right into the inking.  Most of the time, the odd proportions really add to the beauty and originality of his style.  Even though some things may look odd sometimes, his art is so visually stimulating, I can't think of anybody in comics or manga who I prefer over Inoue.

Well, he was also working in a different style and genre with certain artistic conventions. His art has gotten much better, but he also has the freedom to expand his wings as much as he wants now.

There was lots of super distorting going on in Slam Dunk, it was far more "cartoony" compared to the realism of Vagabond.  But I'm not talking about his SD art, I'm talking about the more realistic, anatomically correct drawings.  It's hard to explain so I'll try and find an example later.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 04:00:59 AM »
Wow, you really shot for the bottom of the barrel of Slam Dunk's artwork, didn't you? Most of these are from volume 1, in 1990, when Inoue was just starting out. Of course it's not on the same level as the artwork he would create nearly two decades later. Why is that even worth mentioning or poking fun at?

Anyway, the art isn't even bad. It's serviceable in the context of what it is -- a basketball manga with very literal art. Inoue wasn't shooting for the stars yet, and really, few others in that era of Jump were either.

Personally, I think Slam Dunk's artwork is often overlooked and written off. As I've said before, I think the art in the last few volumes of the series is on par with some of the best of Vagabond. Hell, even among some of the best in the genre of comics. It still stands up as a masterpiece of page/panel composition, and needless to say, it's a totally different style from Vagabond.
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Offline aufond

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 04:46:27 AM »
Wow, you really shot for the bottom of the barrel of Slam Dunk's artwork, didn't you? Most of these are from volume 1, in 1990, when Inoue was just starting out. Of course it's not on the same level as the artwork he would create nearly two decades later. Why is that even worth mentioning or poking fun at?

Like I said, Inoue is my favorite manga artist ever, and I'm not showing these to make him out to be anything less than the amazing artist he is.  My starting point in his work, like many others, was Vagabond.  I was blown away by his ability, I thought he must be a god amongst sequential artists, which he definitely became.  Then when I started to look into his earlier works, I expected maybe it wouldn't be on the level of Vagabond or REAL, but I definitely didn't expect the difference to be so drastic.  Like BERSERK, when you read through Slam Dunk, you can really see his development firsthand.  I actually find it inspiring.  It shows how passionate he has always been about his work, and how hard he worked to get to where he is now.  Most people would probably figure if their drawing or writing doesn't meet the high standards set in these industries right off the bat, they should just give up.  Sakuragi's progress as a basketball player may have been an intentional metaphor for Inoue's own progress as an artist.

These are all from volume 1, but even so, I'm not trying to pick on these images.  They too are beautiful in their own way.  I could never draw anything even a fraction as charming as his earliest works, and I'm an art student!  If you really want a shock, check out his pre Slam Dunk works.  But volume 1 wasn't the only one that contained rough drawings throughout.  It wasn't until 4 or 5 volumes in (or maybe even beyond, it's been awhile since I've read this series) that he really started to shine.

All that being said, even with his really early stuff, he's always been a master at rendering hair.. 
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Offline Walter

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Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 04:53:54 AM »
Well, it's not as if he started Vagabond and suddenly became great as an artist. The early stuff has the same literal edge to it that spilled over from Slam Dunk and Buzzer Beater.

Quote
Most people would probably figure if their drawing or writing doesn't meet the high standards set in these industries right off the bat, they should just give up.
Like I said earlier, the standards weren't that high for Jump in that period of manga. Most art was very literal in that time if you go back and look. The standards for manga art have changed over time, and I'm surprised that as an art student you haven't realized that.

Again, despite you saying you're not trying to pick on Inoue's early stuff, that's all I can see when you point out that hey guys, something's really wrong here with Sakuragi's neck and torso!.
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Offline aufond

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 05:01:58 AM »
Again, despite you saying you're not trying to pick on Inoue's early stuff, that's all I can see when you point out that hey guys, something's really wrong here with Sakuragi's neck and torso!.

Well, that wasn't my intentions, but I can see how people could take offense and think I'm dishonoring the man.  I'll delete that post.  If anyone is interested in what I'm talking about, read Slam Dunk!
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Offline Eluvei

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 05:11:07 AM »
I don't think you should have deleted it. I wanted to say something, too.

On the first pic (Akagi's neck beard), you've been influenced by the low quality scan; I picked up the volume and it's just a simple cross-hatching to depict shading.

And the one with Sakuragi crying, you said it yourself:
Quote
There was lots of super distorting going on in Slam Dunk, it was far more "cartoony" compared to the realism of Vagabond.

I laughed hard at Sakuragi's faces/reactions back then. He should have done some of these for Matahachi!

Offline aufond

Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 05:28:03 AM »
I don't think you should have deleted it. I wanted to say something, too.

On the first pic (Akagi's neck beard), you've been influenced by the low quality scan; I picked up the volume and it's just a simple cross-hatching to depict shading.

And the one with Sakuragi crying, you said it yourself:
I laughed hard at Sakuragi's faces/reactions back then. He should have done some of these for Matahachi!

I know it's hatching to depict shading, it was just a difficult angle and it looked funny.  And the one with Sakuragi crying, that wasn't quite the super distorting I was referring to (I was thinking more along the lines of the really simple ones, with balls for hands and whatnot), but then again there were many levels of distorting going on, even more realistic distorting, and I agree that it was really hilarious. He actually does do it in Vagabond from time to time, but not nearly as much as he did in Slam Dunk.

Anyways, I'll stop here.  I don't want to piss anybody off further, and I really do respect all of Inoue's works, and I don't want to shoot him down in the least bit because he deserves the utmost respect.  I just think his progress was truly amazing, and any real fans of his work should definitely read it all, sooner or later.  Even though some of his early work wasn't on the same level as Vagabond artistically (obviously), I learned a lot about his development as an artist and a writer by checking it all out.  His body of work is intensely fascinating to behold.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Vagabond retouches, mistakes, typos, or wacky images...
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 10:27:10 AM »
Oh I completely agree.  If you've ever watched those videos of Inoue drawing Vagabond (which I'm sure you have), you can see how amazingly fast he gets them out.  He does a rough sketch, then dives right into the inking.  Most of the time, the odd proportions really add to the beauty and originality of his style.  Even though some things may look odd sometimes, his art is so visually stimulating, I can't think of anybody in comics or manga who I prefer over Inoue.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, it's the little artistic flourishes and "imperfections" that really give it life. If Inoue drew everything "perfectly," it'd look dead, kind of the uncanny valley of artwork, and I think that's even somewhat true in certain examples earlier in Vagabond when he was using a more deliberate, or literal as Wally described it, style.

There was lots of super distorting going on in Slam Dunk, it was far more "cartoony" compared to the realism of Vagabond.  But I'm not talking about his SD art, I'm talking about the more realistic, anatomically correct drawings.  It's hard to explain so I'll try and find an example later.

True, and I can't properly compare the two since I've yet to read all of Slam Dunk, but from what I saw I still think he was working within an established style, and then continued to grow from there, and possibly grew out of it (like I said, haven't read it, so I don't know). As we've all noted, within Vagabond itself Inoue's style has dramatically changed, it isn't just an improved version of what he was doing at the beginning of it, it's become something very different from the approach he started with.

Anyways, I'll stop here.  I don't want to piss anybody off further, and I really do respect all of Inoue's works, and I don't want to shoot him down in the least bit because he deserves the utmost respect.  I just think his progress was truly amazing, and any real fans of his work should definitely read it all, sooner or later.  Even though some of his early work wasn't on the same level as Vagabond artistically (obviously), I learned a lot about his development as an artist and a writer by checking it all out.  His body of work is intensely fascinating to behold.

Don't worry about it, I saw the "offending" post and it was pretty benign, you didn't need to delete it. You obviously love Inoue's art, and I respect that with your own art background you have the perspective to discuss it frankly. We've all been picking on Inoue's art in this thread, and it's already hard enough to critique objectively as fans, let alone if we're going to be strictly reverential. No need anyway, Inoue's work stands for itself, and I think this discussion has taken the appreciation of it to another level from where the thread started. So, I do hope you'll keep that up. :SK: