The Moonlight Boy and Griffith

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This topic is something I keep thinking about, and I'd like to discuss it and try and think of better theories and thoughts by seeing what others have to say about it, my apologies if my ramblings aren't very structured.

We see in 364 that when the Boy transforms into Griffith and Griffith could for a brief moment could feel the emotions of the Boy, it's the boy's feelings but Griffith is for a moment feeling them I see it like waking up from a dream. I was wondering it's probably likely it's the same for the boy when the boy takes control it wouldn't be a tear symbolising the boys emotion of course, because knowing Griffiths emotions are pretty much non existent I was wondering if something bleeds into the boy for a moment in a similar way, could even be some secret knowledge and memories, for example he knows about the world tree and probably a lot of other things just inherently. he's also Femto, and the godhand have a lot of knowledge we don't know about and maybe the boy could tap into that and use that knowledge in a position way or subvert their plans.

The recurring thing is he wants to be with his parents, he's a child and he longs for his mother and father, but my counter to that he's just a simple child is he knows a lot of things and a lot of otherworldly things are very normal to him, he's lived within the interstice for a time and children absorb knowledge when they are young and the otherworldly things are natural to him meaning he's learning things normal children won't.

We can see throughout the series that when the boy is in control he seemingly has no scent of Griffith and he's a pure being, but it's in the transitional period of when they transform is when that bond becomes more fragile and both of them become closer as one being and even Griffith can feel the remnants of the Boys feelings, I don't really agree that people say it's just The Boys emotions on Griffith's dead face, he's definitely feeling something but it fades almost like a dream. his body of light looks more like Griffith than himself too, it's almost a fusion between the two like both of their astral bodies are in harmony but there physical bodies are at odds, he can also speak in that form, and the imagery of him quelling dark forces like the Berserk armour and this imagery of the boy dividing darkness I think is important to the Griffith Femto connection.

I really also like the idea of the true name being a factor, for example if Guts and Casca collectively name their son and he understands it, it could disrupt the bond between the boy and Griffith who knows.

And I think I've said this before but I believe that , it's possible Griffith at the very end will be imbued with his lost feelings and emotions he repressed even as a human due to the boy but like the tear it'll be for a moment as he's dying and he'll willingly separate himself from the boy. We know the Boy can manipulate Griffiths physical body when he's not in control it could also be the same for his emotional state a pure being like the boy could bring back something, I'm not taking it lightly that it was previously stated Griffith shed his last tear but here we are seeing Griffith shed a tear because of the boy, it's the boy's emotions but Griffith is shedding a tear, I think this is very important imagery.
 

Aazealh

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And I think I've said this before but I believe that , it's possible Griffith at the very end will be imbued with his lost feelings and emotions he repressed even as a human due to the boy

For a second I wasn't quite sure why you made this thread, but I'm guessing this is what you actually want to talk about. Honestly, I don't see how that would work (the boy giving him his own emotions back). I know you want Griffith to feel bad and say he's sorry at the very end, but his character moved past that sort of thing a long time ago. I don't think there can be a redemption for him, and it also wouldn't befit him at all. It'd be contrary to everything he ever stood for.

I don't really agree that people say it's just The Boys emotions on Griffith's dead face, he's definitely feeling something but it fades almost like a dream.

This amounts to the same thing. We first see Griffith experiencing the boy's emotions in volume 22. Nothing new. But they are the boy's emotions, not his own. And that's the meaning of what he tells Guts in episode 364.
 
My Only problem with what Aaz said is What would a Conversation between Guts and Femto even Be? I feel like those 2 wont make an Impact compared to If Femto in His dying Moments Actually Talks to Guts The Same way Griffith Would
 

Aazealh

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My Only problem with what Aaz said is What would a Conversation between Guts and Femto even Be? I feel like those 2 wont make an Impact compared to If Femto in His dying Moments Actually Talks to Guts The Same way Griffith Would

There are plenty of ways for the final confrontration to be impactful without having a dying Femto tell Guts that he's suddenly sorry for all that stuff he did, if that's what we're talking about here.
 
(the boy giving him his own emotions back). I know you want Griffith to feel bad and say he's sorry at the very end, but his character moved past that sort of thing a long time ago.
That wasn't the only thing I was talking about but my point was the Boy was a demonic being that I believe activated the brand too but his nature changed when he was used as a vessel for Griffith, he was always a good being but once he got that body he changed and came to have a similar nature to elves and is completely pure basically what I'm saying is, Griffith felt the boy's emotions for a moment and he shed a tear, I believe it's possible the boy being a pure being could somehow temporary recover what he lost at the eclipse when he transitioned into Femto, Griffith then was still to me very emotional but all that was lost and he became what he always aspired to be and it took the form of Femto. We've seen the boy manipulate Griffith and make him do things and Even temporarily feel things so I think when he's maybe dying that's a way of having Griffith be closer to the person he once was. And I don't necessarily want him to simply say sorry really, but maybe just have some clarity in a way, I know Griffith has always been a certain way but he was once human

I just mean he went to Guts at the hill of swords to make sure the incarnation didn't change him and to make sure his heart wouldn't be swayed in his new body, but he says he's free, and basically those emotions and the doubt he had is gone, it makes sense that once he got his old form back he'd want to know. And I think the Boy could someone alter his emotions. It just made me think that now he shares a body with a pure being that he could somehow change Griffith and his good nature could bleed into him. Griffith is feeling something again something we've not seen since he was a human and it's because of the boy.
My Only problem with what Aaz said is What would a Conversation between Guts and Femto even Be? I feel like those 2 wont make an Impact compared to If Femto in His dying Moments Actually Talks to Guts The Same way Griffith Would
True. But I will say the emotions of Guts and Casca would be enough, but Griffith still has his memories of the past it's just they are nothing to him, and he doesn't feel anything it's almost just information to him but no emotion is attached. What I'm saying is I think the boy change that and make him see something
 
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Aazealh

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basically what I'm saying is, Griffith felt the boy's emotions for a moment and he shed a tear, I believe it's possible the boy being a pure being could somehow temporary recover what he lost at the eclipse when he transitioned into Femto

That's what I replied to above, but like I said, I don't see how that would work. To be honest, it doesn't seem like you've really thought this through. I think for your own sake, you should probably write down the exact scenario you're thinking of, then see if it makes sense to you. That's the best way to test ideas when speculating. In short: under what circumstances would this happen, and in what way? What do you think Griffith would say? And what would happen afterwards?

Griffith then was still to me very emotional but all that was lost and he became what he always aspired to be and it took the form of Femto.

The last thing Griffith did as a human was look Guts straight in the eye and say "I sacrifice". He was given a choice, and that was the choice he made.

We've seen the boy manipulate Griffith and make him do things and Even temporarily feel things so I think when he's maybe dying that's a way of having Griffith be closer to the person he once was.

Why would the boy do that? Is he still fused with Griffith in that scenario? If so, wouldn't he rather express his own feelings since he would also be dying? His own unjust fate would be the real tragedy in that context.

And I don't necessarily want him to simply say sorry really, but maybe just have some clarity in a way, I know Griffith has always been a certain way but he was once human

Does he lack clarity, though? Nothing gets in the way of his dream, and that's that. Seems pretty clear to me.

It just made me think that now he shares a body with a pure being that he could somehow change Griffith and his good nature could bleed into him. Griffith is feeling something again something we've not seen since he was a human and it's because of the boy

So what you want is basically for Griffith to become a good person? Because the boy's innocence and goodness goes far beyond him "regaining his emotions from before he became Femto". Again, I'm sorry to say but I don't really see how this would play out. What would Griffith do then? Renounce the God Hand? Be morally conflicted about world domination? And what would become of the boy? Would Femto's evil nature also bleed into him? Like I said, I think you should try to write down how it would play out in detail.
 
I tend to agree that’s, basically, where the story was headed. I don’t know that Griffith needs his own emotions, and I wouldn’t expect a redemption arc neither, but simply that the boys feelings present an obstacle to trip him up.

E.g:
Telling Zodd to stop his assault. Jumping to save Casca. Guy seems whipped. Wouldn’t be surprised if one of his final monologue‘s is the fact that again, Guts is getting in the way of his dream (And his inability to properly commit to killing Guts), due to these feelings.

Also I think Moonlight boy = Falcon of light, Griffith = Falcon of darkness. I presume to end the story, there will be a choice, but so we don’t all go mad with rage, it will be Griffith (the darkness) being absorbed into the vortex of souls (the boy can’t as he is too pure).

If people thought Griffith wasn’t due a humanizing moment by the end they haven’t been paying attention to Miura’s storytelling style. The guy might even willingly give himself to the Vortex sort of like The Count.
 

Aazealh

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Also I think Moonlight boy = Falcon of light, Griffith = Falcon of darkness.

No, Griffith is both the Falcon of Light and the Falcon of Darkness. Really, he's the only one referred to as a "falcon" in the story.

The Falcon of Light is the Holy See's messianic figure and is a guise he takes at times. He appears as the Falcon of Light in the prophetic dreams in volume 17 for example. As for the Falcon of Darkness, that is what the old prophecy calls him because it foretells the coming of an age where the God Hand rules. It basically describes him as he really is: Femto.
 
No, Griffith is both the Falcon of Light and the Falcon of Darkness. Really, he's the only one referred to as a "falcon" in the story.

The Falcon of Light is the Holy See's messianic figure and is a guise he takes at times. He appears as the Falcon of Light in the prophetic dreams in volume 17 for example. As for the Falcon of Darkness, that is what the old prophecy calls him because it foretells the coming of an age where the God Hand rules. It basically describes him as he really is: Femto.
I don’t believe it’s that simple. prophetically, the barebones of it is as Schierke said as she wondered if Griffith was the Falcon of Light aka the “Savior”? Or the Falcon of Darkness aka the “King of the blind sheep”? Prophecies causing misdirects are also common story tropes. Truth is Griffith is technically MB, as is MB technically Griffith (and has some control of his heart, while Griffith dreams of MB’s adventures). Whatever Griffith is, MB can theoretically be, unless there was a specific “not including the little boy inside him” disclaimer in the scriptures. They are a whole of two halves, one dark and one light.

You can consider him both, but I don’t see Griffith doing any legitimate good without MB’s influence. And if the Light/Dark prophecies were done and dusted and only sequestered for a dream sequence, that would’ve been fairly disappointing story-wise, while a “pure“/”good“ GH antithesis is conjured within that very “Hawk/Falcon”.

Basically, within Griffith lies two paths to decide the faith of the Berserk world. So yes and no.
 
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Aazealh

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I don’t believe it’s that simple.

I wasn't giving you an opinion, I was telling you the facts from the story. You seem to be under the impression that what is called "The Falcon of Light" is meant to be a real savior for mankind, but that isn't the case. It's a false savior that the Holy See worships as well as a form Femto has taken at times, especially when appearing in dreams.

the barebones of it is as Schierke said as she wondered if Griffith was the Falcon of Light aka the “Savior”? Or the Falcon of Darkness aka the “King of the blind sheep”?

You're misremembering what she said. The old prophecy doesn't mention a Falcon of Light.

Whatever Griffith is, MB can theoretically be, unless there was a specific “not including the little boy inside him” disclaimer in the scriptures.

Femto appears as a literal falcon made of light in the series (to prophesy his own incarnation) and is directly referred to as such by the Pontiff with regard to the Holy See's scriptures. There's no basis for what you're saying at all.
 
I wasn't giving you an opinion, I was telling you the facts from the story. You seem to be under the impression that what is called "The Falcon of Light" is meant to be a real savior for mankind, but that isn't the case. It's a false savior that the Holy See worships as well as a form Femto has taken at times, especially when appearing in dreams.
You're misremembering what she said. The old prophecy doesn't mention a Falcon of Light.

Femto appears as a literal falcon made of light in the series (to prophesy his own incarnation) and is directly referred to as such by the Pontiff with regard to the Holy See's scriptures. There's no basis for what you're saying at all.
You’re not understanding. This is the speculation nation. And I shot a theory for a future event. This is not something you see in current facts, but rather something that one can logically envision in the story based on the facts. You believe the current “fact” that Griffith is the Falcon of Light (Which I don’t disagree with, necessarily) and that the the prophecy of the Falcon of Light has come to fruition, done and dusted, and that the prophecy is essentially a lie used solely to trick people into worshipping Griffith. And I’m telling you, in my speculation, the prophecy is meant to be (/become) legitimately true. And not in a “I’m your Savior but I’m also throwing the world into an ancient chaos” kind of way.

Schierke questions if Griffith is the Falcon of Light, the “Savior of the World“ (otherwise basically known as the one to blow away the darkness, said and depicted). But determines that he isn’t, and rather, that he is the angel who will in actuality bring upon the age of Darkness.

MB is reincarnated/incarnated alongside Griffith, there are two prophecies (light/dark) and they are two halves (light/dark), MB is the “pure” and “good” half, and from that, there is plenty of basis to see that MB can be the “Light” in this “Falcon”, meant to be the “Savior”, which according to the prophecy is meant to essentially dispel the “darkness covering the world”. There is basis. If you don’t agree you don’t agree.
 
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Aazealh

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There aren't two prophecies, as I've explained to you. There is the one prophecy foretelling the coming of an Age of Darkness, and that's it.

"When the sun will have died five times, a red lake will appear at the west of the city with a name both new and ancient, and it will be the sign that the fifth angel is born. The angel shall be a Falcon of Darkness. Both master of the sinful black sheep and king of the blind white sheep. The one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

You seem too enamored with the idea that there has to be an opposition between a "light" and "dark" figure to realize that it's not at all necessary for the scenario you're pushing forward. The boy can and in fact definitely will play a major role in thwarting the God Hand, but he still won't be "The Falcon of Light".
 
Light/dark are major themes played with and subverted in Berserk. That may be why.

BTW, I see what you mean now. And I agree that you’re likely right here.
 
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Aazealh

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Light/dark are major themes played with and subverted in Berserk. That may be why.

Sure, and it's understandable that you would naturally be drawn to that analogy, but like you say it's completely subverted in this case. You have a false tale of a miraculous savior (Griffith) when he's in fact the vanguard for the bad guys and leading humanity down a dark path.

Meanwhile there's no actual savior waiting to appear out of thin air. Mankind's hopes rest on a guy with an anger management problem and his ragtag group of misfits. Don't worry though, his mentor is an undead spirit who's lived in agony for a thousand years! :iva:
 
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