DO you want Gatts to live or die in the end?

[Italian_demon]

I think Idea is like the Oracle, doesn't CONTROL, just has such a vast knowledge that it can put things together and forsee things. But like the Oracle, not everything it forsees is right. I don't even Idea cares if Guts slays apostles, it has Godhand.

I think that what IDEA can do directly is just to Influence the subconscious of the people trying to obtain its Goals...
Certainly is not perfect, as i think SK, Flora and Guts are prove of it.

 

[Jon Schaffer 2]

I'm just a student, and here i have to use words and verbs that i never used for my studies, but i'll try my best to be at least understandable....
But what you mean by: Keep working on your English, you've almost got it down pact.

Got it down pact?

Sorry, I understand that English is a very difficult language to learn. Down pact means you've almost mastered something. So if I said, "Wow, you've got this Berserk shit down pact!"
I would be saying, "Wow, you know a lot about Berserk!"
If that makes any sense...  :-\

EDIT: I wansn't insulting you or anything.

 

[Italian_demon]

Sorry, I understand that English is a very difficult language to learn. Down pact means you've almost mastered something. So if I said, "Wow, you've got this Berserk shit down pact!"
I would be saying, "Wow, you know a lot about Berserk!"
If that makes any sense...  :-\

Thnx it has been very difficult for me to understand Berserk in English, but i just love it so much ;)
I was worried you were saying something like my horrible English is shame........
lol....

 

[Jon Schaffer 2]

Thnx it has been very difficult for me to understand Berserk in English, but i just love it so much ;)
I was worried you were saying something like my horrible English is shame........
lol....

Nah. Unlike Scarface, I try NOT to start fights. If I do say an insult its just a joke. Like the fact that you have better grammer than most people on this site. SMITH.

 

[akikaze]

Like the fact that you have better grammer than most people on this site. SMITH.

You don't try to start fights, eh? ;D

 

[Sparnage]

I think Idea is like the Oracle, doesn't CONTROL, just has such a vast knowledge that it can put things together and forsee things. But like the Oracle, not everything it forsees is right. I don't even Idea cares if Guts slays apostles, it has Godhand.

You probably underestimate the Idea, it is basically everyone put together as a single entity and controls everything. Aside the lost chapter we have no other dialogue from it's mouth, but it is enough to establish the true control it has over everyone.

Volume 13, chapter 4;

Idea: I produce those As it is what I've been brought into existence for I control fate Obeying the essence of humankind I weave every man's destiny.

Griffith: ... Does that mean that you're the one who controls my destiny?... that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness And merging blood with blood I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are To pave the way for the times you would be born in I manipulated History And created an appropriate context for you All the encounters you have had so far Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

 

[Italian_demon]

Idea: I produce those As it is what I've been brought into existence for I control fate Obeying the essence of humankind I weave every man's destiny.

Griffith: ... Does that mean that you're the one who controls my destiny?... that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness And merging blood with blood I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are To pave the way for the times you would be born in I manipulated History And created an appropriate context for you All the encounters you have had so far Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

I don't agree, Idea was trying to impress Griffit a little but it also says what i think is the only power it has on the Humans!
It can influence the consciousness and throught it, it's able to manipulate Story!
But it doesn't control everything, as SK, Flora, Guts and Elfs King are the witness of it!
Obviously it can control also GHs and Apostles that are free from it conscious influence but they are aware that IDea can just destroy them by will as Griffit proved against Zodd or give them the ethernal power on the side of the fifth!
Idea influences and so tries to control but doesn't know the future..... Just tries to make it to be as it wishes... otherwise IDEA would be just unbeatable, IDEA comes from humans not the opposite, and also is not perfect, i think it tried to kill Guts since he was born (cause it was not established he would survive to the death of his mother!) then it wanted to use him for its own sake (help Griffit) but never IDEA could actually influence Guts conscience (in fact he beated Griffit and drop him down!), that means that Strong Wills can resist to IDEA's influence i think ;)

 

[Smith]

Like the fact that you have better grammer than most people on this site. SMITH.

::)


(Like to treat me like some kind of joke eh?)

 

[DarkBlademaster]

::)


(Like to treat me like some kind of joke eh?)

Its because they look at your high post count (which is 2nd highest to walter), and your not as powerful as walter, not as charismatic as griffith, not as knowlagable as Hague, not as old most people, so what are you?

Stand strong my high post brother, dont let their jelousy bring you down!

 

[Italian_demon]

::)


(Like to treat me like some kind of joke eh?)

Are yoy really 17?

Go Smith!!
;)

 

[Sparnage]

I don't agree, Idea was trying to impress Griffit a little but it also says what i think is the only power it has on the Humans!
It can influence the consciousness and throught it, it's able to manipulate Story!
But it doesn't control everything, as SK, Flora, Guts and Elfs King are the witness of it!
Obviously it can control also GHs and Apostles that are free from it conscious influence but they are aware that IDea can just destroy them by will as Griffit proved against Zodd or give them the ethernal power on the side of the fifth!
Idea influences and so tries to control but doesn't know the future..... Just tries to make it to be as it wishes... otherwise IDEA would be just unbeatable, IDEA comes from humans not the opposite, and also is not perfect, i think it tried to kill Guts since he was born (cause it was not established he would survive to the death of his mother!) then it wanted to use him for its own sake (help Griffit) but never IDEA could actually influence Guts conscience (in fact he beated Griffit and drop him down!), that means that Strong Wills can resist to IDEA's influence i think ;)

Why would the Idea be trying to impress Griffith?! He is the idea, he is the collective conscious and knows everything, there is no reason to suggest otherwise from the lost chapter.
Even if the lost chapter was not enough to convince you that he doesnt control everything, or at the very least know what is going to happen in the future. Slann says when Skully, Guts and Caska escape the Eclipse "It is impossible to foresee all things, we are not god himself" meaning that God can see all things.
Regardless of that the quote of the Idea in my previous post is enough to suggest that he can control practically everything.

Its because they look at your high post count (which is 2nd highest to walter), and your not as powerful as walter, not as charismatic as griffith, not as knowlagable as Hague, not as old most people, so what are you?

Thats harsh Demon, Smith is still one of the members that contributes more to the Berserk discussions with a decent amount of knowledge on the topic, and has fairly rational conclusions. Thats not always the case with other members.

 

[DarkBlademaster]

Thats harsh Demon, Smith is still one of the members that contributes more to the Berserk discussions with a decent amount of knowledge on the topic, and has fairly rational conclusions. Thats not always the case with other members.

Didn't mean it as an insult, sorry if thats how it seems. ::) I was just comparing him to his insanly large post count.

 

[Smith]

Didn't mean it as an insult, sorry if thats how it seems. ::) I was just comparing him to his insanly large post count.

Are you Jealous or something? ::)


My large post count is mainly because of my interest in this manga and also in this board, this only show i am a true hardcore fan of Berserk because i log on here almost everyday to update myself

And yes...

not as old most people, so what are you?

I am at least older than you... that might make feel better if you are disappointed with your post count

 

[DarkBlademaster]

I am at least older than you... that might make feel better if you are disappointed with your post count

That means I have 2 years to get my count as high as yours :-*

My large post count is mainly because of my interest in this manga and also in this board, this only show i am a true hardcore fan of Berserk because i log on here almost everyday to update myself

:)

Huh?

What is there to ARRRRRRR...?

Nope i think he wanted Skullknight dick real hard...


P.S It must be one of the admins... HAHA

Welcome ;D


Smith is my username and i am one of the most unwelcome asshole in this board... feel free to play with me


Yet i advise you not to fool around with Walts, Griff, Majin, Hauge and Saiya, they are the boss here 8)



And btw like Demon X said, ignore Xechnao... this is the most imp rules ;)

8) Nice stratagy, i guess your posts collect over the months 8)

 

[Jon Schaffer 2]

Thanks for proving me wrong Sparnage.  ;D

Aside from that,

(Like to treat me like some kind of joke eh?)

I was just joking around man, I even explained that I was in the previous sentence. Thats why I said,

If I do say an insult its just a joke. Like the fact...

I don't think Smith is stupid, like he said, he contributes to this site more than most of us do and has quite a bit of knowledge in the field of Berserk. Its just that his grammar has faults in it. But then again, no one is perfect.

 

[Lliugusamui]

Hey guys !
Who isn't useless here anyhow ? I let you ponder about that and go back to the darkness... ^^

Guil

 

[redria]

I want zodd to become guts' bitch when guts kills griffith

 

[Italian_demon]

Why would the Idea be trying to impress Griffith?! He is the idea, he is the collective conscious and knows everything, there is no reason to suggest otherwise from the lost chapter.

I don't think so, instead i think exactly the opposite!
Idea's influence in Griffit failed when Griffit met Guts (that clearly have not been influenced by IDEA cause he dropped down Griffit and put him on crise not wanting to be a part of his Dream => IDEA wishes!!), and in fact Griffit says to Guts: you made me forget my Dream!! => IDEA's wishes and influences...

In the moment he's activating the Behelit, the first thing he tries to scream (even though he couldn't obviously do it) to GUts and the others is: DOn't come any closer... Run Away!!
He didn't want to sacrifice them!

Idea push hard into influencing Griffit throught the GHs making the Fack Flash-back of what is supposed to be his unconscious Himself!
Well if you notice in one of the picture you can see that the old Lady speaking to Griffit supposed to be his coscience in the End is Cubrik (sitting on top of Conrad....). They just executed the will of IDEA to regain the controll of Idea on Griffit!
And Griffit have been weak letting the Influence of IDEA make him sacrifice what he loved the most!

 

[Italian_demon]

Even if the lost chapter was not enough to convince you that he doesnt control everything, or at the very least know what is going to happen in the future. Slann says when Skully, Guts and Caska escape the Eclipse "It is impossible to foresee all things, we are not god himself" meaning that God can see all things.
Regardless of that the quote of the Idea in my previous post is enough to suggest that he can control practically everything.

Exactly all you say is what makes me think the opposite of it!
For the first time in the Lost Chapter and in the Eclips we can see, the weakness points of IDEA, what it was supposed to be GOD, is just an Entity created by the Human common sub-coscience!
As he's not God but just a powerful Entity all it can do in to influence the weaker Will at unconscious level and make what he wishes to Happen to actually happen!
The GHs know the WILL of IDEA and they believe that everything IDEA wants to happen just happens....... Well this is obviously wrong!
In fact IDEA since now never made it to gain its Goal, and still now it doesn't have controll in GUTS mind and SK, FLORA and many others!
I almost always agree with you Sparnage, one of my favorite poster!
But this time i see that we are on the extreem opposite side of the Opinion...
Ganiska also can't be influenced by IDEA, and the Elfs, neither the places where the Elfs lived can be reached by the Darkness.....
If IDEA can controll everything then GUTS would be dead, same for SK and Elfs KIng, GAniska, (Zodd also i'm sure is preparing to betray someway Griffit!) etc, this means also that the Manga is obviously already finished with the WIN of IDEA that can controll everything and GUts SK and all the rest will be just squized down and bye bye!!
Is this what you think??

 

[Smith]

That means I have 2 years to get my count as high as yours  :-*

What i am trying to say is that I join this board earlier than you...


And yes you still treat me like some kind of joke ;)

 

[Sparnage]

I don't think so, instead i think exactly the opposite!
Idea's influence in Griffit failed when Griffit met Guts (that clearly have not been influenced by IDEA cause he dropped down Griffit and put him on crise not wanting to be a part of his Dream => IDEA wishes!!), and in fact Griffit says to Guts: you made me forget my Dream!!  => IDEA's wishes and influences...

In the moment he's activating the Behelit, the first thing he tries to scream (even though he couldn't obviously do it) to GUts and the others is: DOn't come any closer... Run Away!!
He didn't want to sacrifice them!

Idea push hard into influencing Griffit throught the GHs making the Fack Flash-back of what is supposed to be his unconscious Himself!
Well if you notice in one of the picture you can see that the old Lady speaking to Griffit supposed to be his coscience in the End is Cubrik (sitting on top of Conrad....). They just executed the will of IDEA to regain the controll of Idea on Griffit!
And Griffit have been weak letting the Influence of IDEA make him sacrifice what he loved the most!

Not necessarily true, what we do know is that as the Idea said "I dwell deep in your heart, I am apart of you. You are a part of your kinds consciousness, a part of me. Your desire is my desire as well."
Essentially they are very similar beings with similar desires, the Idea never mentioned anything about a confliction of what happened in Griffiths life, but rather the opposite as everything has gone to plan from the beginning. Going back to the idea's previous conversation he says;
Idea: I produce those As it is what I've been brought into existence for I control fate Obeying the essence of humankind I weave every man's destiny.

Griffith: ... Does that mean that you're the one who controls my destiny?... that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness And merging blood with blood I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are To pave the way for the times you would be born in I manipulated History And created an appropriate context for you All the encounters you have had so far Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

As he talkes to Griffith about creating a lineage and appropriate context he is showing all the pictures of the Band of the hawk and even Guts in it.

This proves beyond any doubt that Guts among everything else was all apart of how Griffith was to end up in the situation that he did right before the Eclipse.
Remember Zodd would have also had inside information on it as well from the Godhand or whoever, as he says when he first meets Guts "when this mans dream comes crashing down, you will face a unavoidable death!"

That means from the very start Griffith was going to fuck up to make him eventually end up in the situation where he would have to make a sacrifice to become a Godhand, and who else could have made Griffith screw up so bad? Only Guts leaving his hand could make him turn to having sex with the princess, getting arrested and tortured for a year, being saved by Guts and the other hawks, fighting Wild and his soldiers before finally getting to the field where the Eclipse takes place, none of this was a accident or unforseen by the Idea himself, he must have arranged for this to happen from the beginning.

On that note Griffith being forced to sacrifice Guts is just apart of any being who wants to sacrifice something to become a Apostle or Godhand, I don't believe it is the Idea's motive to eliminate him out of the picture because Guts scares the Idea or anything.

Exactly all you say is what makes me think the opposite of it!
For the first time in the Lost Chapter and in the Eclips we can see, the weakness points of IDEA, what it was supposed to be GOD, is just an Entity created by the Human common sub-coscience!
As he's not God but just a powerful Entity all it can do in to influence the weaker Will at unconscious level and make what he wishes to Happen to actually happen!
The GHs know the WILL of IDEA and they believe that everything IDEA wants to happen just happens....... Well this is obviously wrong!
In fact IDEA since now never made it to gain its Goal, and still now it doesn't have controll in GUTS mind and SK, FLORA and many others!
I almost always agree with you Sparnage, one of my favorite poster!
But this time i see that we are on the extreem opposite side of the Opinion...
Ganiska also can't be influenced by IDEA, and the Elfs, neither the places where the Elfs lived can be reached by the Darkness.....
If IDEA can controll everything then GUTS would be dead, same for SK and Elfs KIng, GAniska, (Zodd also i'm sure is preparing to betray someway Griffit!) etc, this means also that the Manga is obviously already finished with the WIN of IDEA that can controll everything and GUts SK and all the rest will be just squized down and bye bye!!
Is this what you think??

The only thing that went against fate was Guts and Caska managing to survive the Eclipse, but on top of that there is a very good chance the Idea knew that was going to happen as well. As Slann said "We don't know everything, we are not God himself"
Bringing up Ganishka is a perfect example as well, Ganishka is opposed to the Idea, Griffith and the rest of the Godhand as what he wants in the world is power for himself, and as far as he is concerned nothing and noone is going to take that away from him.

What he doesn't realise is that his conscious of rebellion is simply that dillusion completely created by the Idea to make him think he can carry that thought out and crush reborn Griffith and his band of the hawks so that he can eventually gain a reputation and become King. This is what both Griffith and the idea want, and this is the most plausable way to get what he wants, and THAT is the real sort of power that the Idea really has, which is absolutely boundless as he is everyone!

The Idea may be created by the human conscious but he is still the collective conscious of every single being that has ever existed. All in all I think you may underestimate the Idea's true power. 

I believe it was Dwarfkicker was the first to tell me that theory of Ganishka and Idea, and I couldn't agree more, (thanks Dwarfkicker ;))

PS: I'm Glad to hear i'm in your good books, Italian Demon. It's always good to have a decent debate with someone about Berserk or anything else. :)

 

[Italian_demon]

No Way i don't agree but i understand your point as it's more or less the same thoughts i had weeks before!

All you say can be agreed or disagreed!

I think we're getting stuck on this and we won't never find an agreement unless we start copying a pasting (if this is possible) all the pictures we are speaking about and discuss it with all the others as well.

What you say I think is not exact and not certain, but we are both speculating, and I respect your opinion, also I have no proves I'm right, but my position very difficult to support has for me good bases and it's bases are on the fact that Zodd, in my opinion will be the surprise of the Manga, as he never is very clearly in one position!
It's like everything he says, can be read in many ways and suspicious like he's not clear cause he's not able to tell all the real truth!
Also if you look just to facts, Zodd never really interfered between GUTS and SK, never actually hurt GUTS, once he helped him, but what really convinced me is the sequence of the Volume 17 when he says that he's not satisfied fighting just between humans to seek the "strong one" and then think to the unknown says: are you the only one? .
After it comes the sentence about Sk but the more I read it the more I think that he thinks to SK cause he's the one the protected the 'possible strong one' and not the subject of the previews sentence!

If you can give a logical explanation of why Zodd fights  just against the humans to seek the STRONG ONE, even though many apostle wound be a better opponent for him and why he comes out with those words then you'll prove to me that my theory is wrong,

Now I'm busy but if I can soon I'll make a special with all the pictures that prove my theory or that could prove mine is just fantasy!

 

[Italian_demon]

Not necessarily true, what we do know is that as the Idea said "I dwell deep in your heart, I am apart of you. You are a part of your kinds consciousness, a part of me. Your desire is my desire as well."
Essentially they are very similar beings with similar desires, the Idea never mentioned anything about a confliction of what happened in Griffiths life, but rather the opposite as everything has gone to plan from the beginning. Going back to the idea's previous conversation he says;
Idea: I produce those As it is what I've been brought into existence for I control fate Obeying the essence of humankind I weave every man's destiny.

Griffith: ... Does that mean that you're the one who controls my destiny?... that you're the one... who arranged everything so that it would be this way?!

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness And merging blood with blood I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are To pave the way for the times you would be born in I manipulated History And created an appropriate context for you All the encounters you have had so far Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

Well, i understand your point as i agreed with it in the beginning!
But it doesn't prove anything!
We know just something as you SK, Flora and GUTS prove!
Idea is not perfect and can't fortold the Future!
It comes in the next sentence what i think is the one power of IDEA!

 

[Italian_demon]

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness And merging blood with blood I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are To pave the way for the times you would be born in I manipulated History And created an appropriate context for you All the encounters you have had so far Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

It was established by Who? It was the simple WILL of this ENTITY born into the Abyss from the human common negative coscience, ok? Then?
What did it actually do? it wasn't able to create the Future or to preview the future, but to plan it!
Ok it is very powerful and made quite a great job to make its plans to come true but is it enough to say that it controls the Destiny?
It planned a correct enviroment to grow up his fifth GH (and all the others true), and tried to make it......
Well we could say in the END it successed so far, but not without mistakes and not completly!
As SK says Guts was not planned, he is a cursed baby (i suppose it mean cursed my IDEA!) and that Griffit would forget the Dream i doubt it was planned, but yes, IDEA could fix it pushing hard of Griffit's conscience.. so does this makes him able to control everything?
My opinion is no!
Guts have been used by IDEA? Maybe maybe at a certain stadium of his life yes, but then IDEA couldn't get rid of him when he have been sacrified and it has no control or influence on his Conscience!
Same goes for SK, FLORA, Scherkie, Elfs King, Ganiska or do you think IDEA planned them also?
So is it IDEA masochist and plan also opponents to make it more fun to Win??

The original plan have been changed already a few times in my opinion, that means IDEA can't really control the Destiny can just as it says to Griffit: MANIPULATE IT!

Seems like no one consider that IDEA is not GOD!
Could be called a GOD but is not THE GOD creator of the World and creator of the Destiny.....
What it says to Griffit should be interpretated considering the situation and the actual Goals of IDEA at the moment!

When IDEA changed his plans in my opinion?
One example for me, is during the Eclips when not just Caska but also GUts gets free, saved both by SK that certainly is not under Idea's influence!
Another? When the Egg Apostle order the sacrifice of the Human world and kinda Eat the Demon Child, i'm sure that original plan was that simply Griffit would reincarn while the human world would be destroyed... the Spiritual World and the human world would be melted already and immediatly Griffit would have had the new World ready for IDEA.....
Instead GUTS crashes all the system using the Behelits resonance to block the process and save partly the human world!
Planned it by IDEA?
But Griffit reincarned anyway, so IDEA gets a partial win...
In this situation Griffit, that has to fix the problem, he needs to produce the collaps of the 2 worlds in other ways, but seems it kinda of automatic.
So the Egg Apostles had two Goals: to grant the possibility for Femto to arrive to the human world, but also to destroy it directly!

All of this obviously is my guess

 

[Italian_demon]

This proves beyond any doubt that Guts among everything else was all apart of how Griffith was to end up in the situation that he did right before the Eclipse.
Remember Zodd would have also had inside information on it as well from the Godhand or whoever, as he says when he first meets Guts "when this mans dream comes crashing down, you will face a unavoidable death!"

That means from the very start Griffith was going to fuck up to make him eventually end up in the situation where he would have to make a sacrifice to become a Godhand, and who else could have made Griffith screw up so bad? Only Guts leaving his hand could make him turn to having sex with the princess, getting arrested and tortured for a year, being saved by Guts and the other hawks, fighting Wild and his soldiers before finally getting to the field where the Eclipse takes place, none of this was a accident or unforseen by the Idea himself, he must have arranged for this to happen from the beginning.

On that note Griffith being forced to sacrifice Guts is just apart of any being who wants to sacrifice something to become a Apostle or Godhand, I don't believe it is the Idea's motive to eliminate him out of the picture because Guts scares the Idea or anything.

Yes this makes sence and again i tell you it was what i thuoght, but just before reading the Lost Chapter!
After is a got to know that some one was Manipulating the Destiny, so not actually deciding the Destiny but just "TRYING" to shape it as it wishes!
I never said that GUTS scares IDEA, instead this might be the bigger mistake!
Someways it was IDEA that grow up GUTS as it is now!
I'm sure the SK is thankful for this...... lol...
I think that Guts was supposed to end is "Help" to Griffit in the moment that as Zodd says "he's face his anovoidable Death!"
But someone.... SK.... broke up the Idea's plans!
Again Zodd saying so, shows not just respect for Guts, but he's speaking to him, for kinda try to "warn" him, even though he knew that Guts alone couldn't change Idea's plans!
From that moment on, Idea's lost completely the control of a "human" that won't never be able to influence anymore!