Farnese's demonstration in episode 360 is misleading

[nameless henchman]

If this was already mentioned elsewhere, then I apologize. I did not see the following mentioned in the original episode 360 thread and I have not yet seen it in other forums.

If you were one of the students in attendance, then you would assume that Farnese learned the formation of the four kings within three months. That assumption has two problems. First, unless I missed a full moon, only two months have passed since Farnese asked Schierke to teach magic to her in episode 236 shortly before the moonlight child's first visit. Second, Farnese has been capable of casting that spell since her first attempt in episode 318 during the moonlight child's second visit.

Students in Elfhelm, who start studying magic as children, are raised in the interstice, and have the Great Gurus as instructors and mentors, typically need one year to cast that spell. Farnese, who started studying magic as an adult, was raised at the heart of the Church, and was an officer of the Inquisition, was able to that cast that spell on her first try after one month of study.

How do we reconcile these inputs with their results? Does Schierke know the one weird trick that the Great Gurus hate? Are her training methods so superior to those of the Great Gurus that they should renounce their titles and retire in shame? Schierke's explanation was vague. Why not share the special circumstances that enabled a handicapped neophyte to skip nearly one year's worth of effort? Is it something intrinsic to Farnese? Schierke was shocked by Serpico's progress with the sylphs during the battle at Enoch village in episode 211.

 

[Walter]

The takeaway is that experience is a better teacher than learning it in the vacuum of a classroom setting. Schierke says as much: "Weeeeell, it's because she was in a special environment…" (having your life on the line). Farnese witnessed that spell in combat and learned to cast it because it was necessary for their survival.

As for how long it's been since they started her training, if she says it's been "3 months, or so" then that's more reliable than counting the number of appearances of the boy, who does not HAVE to appear every full moon.

 

[TheItCrOw]

That is a very valid point @nameless henchman and I too have been wondering about this. In the end, I came to the same conclusion as Walter did. What helped me though was a story of a Shaolin master I met.

I practice Kung-Fu, and I've visited two Shaolin temples where I spent around two weeks practicing with the novices (albeit not in China; I prefer to leave a temple without having to crawl). The Sifu stated: "If you live in this monastery for one month, train with us, eat with us, breathe with us - you are on the same level as a casual blackbelt training twice a week for 1h since childhood."

Naturally, this is only feasible with a fundamentally sound, athletic foundation but I do firmly believe in that statement and I do see the comparision here to what Shierke and hence Miura tried to tell us, albeit not exactly under the same circumstances.

 

[SlyapBG]

Berserk operates under the assumption that events themselves will make you more prepared than a controlled environment, which is something not true in the real world. At least not necessarily.
Also, it doesn't matter that much - they are the heroes, after all. The story needs for them to be capable to do certain stuff and it's not like Farnese has passed the time doing nothing. Her faith doesn't matter, because she didn't really believe in it, she just saw approval in using it. Besides, Guts broke her faith before they met Schierke.

 

[nameless henchman]

The takeaway is that experience is a better teacher than learning it in the vacuum of a classroom setting. Schierke says as much: "Weeeeell, it's because she was in a special environment…" (having your life on the line). Farnese witnessed that spell in combat and learned to cast it because it was necessary for their survival.

The amount of time required by the students caught my attention more than Farnese's time. They should be able to complete the visualization exercise as quickly as Farnese if not sooner. They live in the interstice, so I would hope that they can learn astral projection faster. The ritual as shown has few movements and several lines. Where does the rest of the year go?

While I am talking about specific amounts of time I realize that what really matters is the author's intent. It may have been only to show that field is more important than classroom. The severity of the gap between the two parties caused me to wonder if Miura was showing more than that.

As for how long it's been since they started her training, if she says it's been "3 months, or so" then that's more reliable than counting the number of appearances of the boy, who does not HAVE to appear every full moon.

I thought that Farnese may consider her meeting Flora and Schierke as the start of her magical education. I did not intend to imply that Farnese was intentionally trying to mislead the onlookers. I agree that the characters' statements are the best means to measure time in Berserk. I cannot recall any mention of specific dates or a calendar in the story.

 

[Aazealh]

That is a very valid point @nameless henchman and I too have been wondering about this. In the end, I came to the same conclusion as Walter did.

It's not like this is a big mystery that requires one to make a deduction. Just see what the characters say...

Berserk operates under the assumption that events themselves will make you more prepared than a controlled environment

That's a strange generalization. I don't know what your statement is based on other than this specific case. For example, Guts has spent his entire life practicing swordfighting, and his relentless training is highlighted as a key reason he's so good.

The amount of time required by the students caught my attention more than Farnese's time. They should be able to complete the visualization exercise as quickly as Farnese if not sooner.

Says who? They're children and you would expect their learning to start with the basics and slowly build up to that particular ritual. Farnese's case was different not just because she had direct real-world experience, but also because there were constraints the group had to overcome. She needed to perform the ceremony on the Sea Horse because Schierke couldn't. There was no choice. It was do or die. Without that impetus, maybe Schierke would have waited more before making her do it.

Beyond this rather obvious context, the point of the scene is to show that Farnese is actually pretty good at magic, despite her circumstances as an adult and a former religious zealot. She's not just your average student. But of course, once again the context of her learning played a heavy role as she was confronted with the supernatural on a daily basis and in a rather dramatic manner, something you can't experience in a classroom. This ability to believe in and visualize ethereal concepts and beings is key to the practice of magic in Berserk.

Lastly, just because Farnese could learn and master this ritual rather rapidly doesn't mean she knows everything those students do or can do everything they can. There are probably gaps in her knowledge because Schierke trained her for the things they were most likely to need during the journey.

They live in the interstice

So what? There's no real basis to your assumption that simply being in the Interstice helps learning the release of one's body of light. But even then, Farnese is also in the Interstice by virtue of being around Guts and Casca. And when she cast the ritual, they were already in Fantasia. She's got quite the experience as far as witnessing supernatural events goes.

Where does the rest of the year go?

See what I said above. There's a lot of things they could be learning if you consider a general curriculum. Just read the Elfhelm episodes again, or even those in Flora's mansion, and use your imagination.

 

[TheItCrOw]

It's not like this is a big mystery that requires one to make a deduction. Just see what the characters say...

It wasn't about me not seeing the explanation, but debating to myself whether I find the given explanation acceptable, which it did in the end.

 

[Odeon]

That is a very valid point @nameless henchman and I too have been wondering about this. In the end, I came to the same conclusion as Walter did. What helped me though was a story of a Shaolin master I met.

I practice Kung-Fu, and I've visited two Shaolin temples where I spent around two weeks practicing with the novices (albeit not in China; I prefer to leave a temple without having to crawl). The Sifu stated: "If you live in this monastery for one month, train with us, eat with us, breathe with us - you are on the same level as a casual blackbelt training twice a week for 1h since childhood."

Naturally, this is only feasible with a fundamentally sound, athletic foundation but I do firmly believe in that statement and I do see the comparision here to what Shierke and hence Miura tried to tell us, albeit not exactly under the same circumstances.

this is the most skullknight.net-esque example hahah pretty cool

 

[SlyapBG]

That's a strange generalization. I don't know what your statement is based on other than this specific case. For example, Guts has spent his entire life practicing swordfighting, and his relentless training is highlighted as a key reason he's so good.

I tried to look up events in the manga to back up my claim, but I couldn't turn up anything that could determinably support it. I tried to reverse my thought pattern to understand why I posted that, but all I came up with was some error in logical summation of traits that the nobility have in Berserk and contrasted that with the traits of the heroes. So if a nobel was associated with things we've seen him do or say, that's automatically negative. In contrast with the heroes, which is automatically good.

Hm, I can't really tell you why I did that. I must have misread something or another about nobels being incompetent, undeserving of their stature, and thinking that's what the author's intent was for all of the nobility and not what was just needed for a scene.

Ironically, Farnese is nobility. As well as other Midland characters who are good guys. In fact, it could have been her education as a nobel that allowed her so quickly to learn the spell. Well, partly.

 

[Aazealh]

Hm, I can't really tell you why I did that. I must have misread something or another about nobels being incompetent, undeserving of their stature, and thinking that's what the author's intent was for all of the nobility and not what was just needed for a scene.

No big deal, that can happen. It's a big and complex series so it's easy to misremember stuff.

 

[Xenoskell]

The takeaway is that experience is a better teacher than learning it in the vacuum of a classroom setting. Schierke says as much: "Weeeeell, it's because she was in a special environment…" (having your life on the line). Farnese witnessed that spell in combat and learned to cast it because it was necessary for their survival.

As for how long it's been since they started her training, if she says it's been "3 months, or so" then that's more reliable than counting the number of appearances of the boy, who does not HAVE to appear every full moon.

I agree.
For me a similar situation is Guts as a boy vs other boys receiving just sword practice at the same age.
Guts might not even know all the techniques and stuff that other boys learned, but because of his experiences in battle and the overall harsh environment throught his life, he was much more capable (in battle) than the others.