Guts' urge to kill and beast of darkness

[blodvind]

I am re-reading the manga to understand it better. One of my favorite characters is the beast of darkness (BOD). I understand the BOD is not an entity but the manifestation of Guts trauma, revenge, malice, urge to kill, etc.

I find four occasions pre-BOD that remind me of the BOD. I have interpreted them as if Guts' behavior, in those occasions, is being fueled by an urge to kill that makes the foundations for the consequent birth of the BOD. This is: the BOD could not exist if not that urge had been summoned and nourished during Guts' earlier years. What are your opinions on this?

The four ocassions are the following (I'm sorry if the descriptions are fuzzy, I can't remember the exact volumes):

* After Guts is abused by Donovan. Guts slashes some barrels and random merc stuff, inside a tent, I think.
* After hearing Griffith's speech at the fountain. Specifically, right after he saves Casca from the whale "clown". He expresses his lust for battle very strongly, here as: anyone will do, I just want to swing my sword until I cannot think of anything else.
* After the reunion with Griffith at the tower of rebirth: such bloodlust when attacking the enemies.
* After he hesitated killing Roshine, when he talks to himself as: "black it out". I was very surprised by him using specifically this expression (idk, maybe the translation is innacurate?). It reminds me a lot of the Berserk's armor, and it sounds abnormally literal. Also as if he were summoning *something* at will. Actually, I'd love to hear about what you think this expression means.

My approach while reading this second time, during these occasions, has been: these are hints to BOD. It is a delight thinking that, actually. Is it too much of a stretch?

Thank you!

/blodvind

 

[TheItCrOw]

Just giving my personal thoughts: Let's have a look at your first two occurences:

1. Guts slashes one barrel, but it wasn't because Donovan had abused him; rather, it happened when he went to face Gambino, believing it was really his (and hence really his "father's") fault. Guts slices the barrel in a fit of fury and disappointment to himself after concluding that Gambino was unaware (which is untrue, as we all know). My interpretation of this scene is that Guts feels disappointed in himself because he thought that Gambino would harm him. That is also the reason why Guts is so devastated when he discovers that Gambino was indeed to blame. It's a pretty natural reaction wouldn't you say?

2. You overlook an important circumstance that occurred before this scene: Guts recently executed a child on Griffith's orders (not specifically, but he did kill the child whilst on a "dirty" mission given to him by Griffith). He turns to Griffith, his friend, for solace because he feels guilty. Then Griffith rejects him as well, leaving him feeling wholly alone. Guts is unable to cope with his emotions (because he doesn't know how), therefore he seeks his own conformity by wielding a sword. It's all he is aware of. Again, pretty natural I would say.

I see no specific sign of the BOD here. These are just human emotions and the BOD embodies something much more extreme which originates from something we humans cannot begin to understand. As for the other two scenes... maybe partially. But I lack the details right now and cannot look them up for now.
However, as for my "gut" feeling () only occurence 4 makes sense.

 

[blodvind]

First, thanks for reading and for your reply.

My interpretation of this scene is that Guts feels disappointed in himself because he thought that Gambino would harm him.

I have interpreted it as if he felt frustrated and powerless, hence he decided to take it out on the poor barrel. That rage and violence are traits of the BOD so I think it is in these outbursts that we can see the BOD start forming. Your interpretation is also convincing. Maybe I am wrong or it can be a bit of both.

It's a pretty natural reaction wouldn't you say?

Yes; I agree.

Guts is unable to cope with his emotions (because he doesn't know how), therefore he seeks his own conformity by wielding a sword. It's all he is aware of. Again, pretty natural I would say.

Guts tries to cope with these emotions through rage and violence, I think, but instead this is nourishment for what will come to be the BOD. I also agree here that this is a natural reaction.

Here is where I disagree, though.

I see no specific sign of the BOD here. These are just human emotions

Rage and lust for violence are both human emotions  and traits of the BOD, so I think it is reasonable to say that they are indeed signs of the BOD (in Guts' case). Specific to the BOD? Probably not because maybe another person can feel those emotions without letting them become a huge deal (as the BOD is).

BOD embodies something much more extreme which originates from something we humans cannot begin to understand.

I disagree here as well. I agree about the seriousness of the BOD but I don't think its origins are unknown or incomprehensible. Not even for Guts, I think. He is aware of what the BOD is and where it comes from, and the reader is as well. :)

 

[TheItCrOw]

I disagree here as well. I agree about the seriousness of the BOD but I don't think its origins are unknown or incomprehensible. Not even for Guts, I think. He is aware of what the BOD is and where it comes from, and the reader is as well. :)

You misread what I said. We readers and Guts are aware of the origins, of course. Almost an entire volume has been devoted to depicting the eclipse. What I intended to say is that we are unable to comprehend what it must be like to have all of our friends devoured by demons at one friend's command. Additionally, we also had to see our girlfriend being violated by a bird monster that resembled a god-like deity and which was also our best friend.

 

[Walter]

I have interpreted them as if Guts' behavior, in those occasions, is being fueled by an urge to kill that makes the foundations for the consequent birth of the BOD. This is: the BOD could not exist if not that urge had been summoned and nourished during Guts' earlier years. What are your opinions on this?

My approach while reading this second time, during these occasions, has been: these are hints to BOD. It is a delight thinking that, actually. Is it too much of a stretch?

It's an interesting question. But I don't think those white-eyed moments of rage that Guts has in the Golden Age are a kind of proto-Beast peeking through. Keep in mind, it's merely a visual motif used for storytelling. It's Miura's stylized depiction of rage for Guts, and yes it was eventually replaced by the Beast's signature z-shaped eye, once it developed in Guts' mind. But crucially, the Beast represents more than just Guts' rage, and it's the result of more than just violent encounters. So there is no Beast to be found before the Eclipse.

Which does raise the question: if we're drawing lines around the Beast's development, was there a moment when it was born? I don't think so. Because while we point to the Eclipse as the catalyst, I think the Beast was formed gradually during his quest as the Black Swordsman. And while readers didn't see it manifest through the specters until Volume 16, those urges had been there since the Eclipse, so it was likely present in Guts' subconsciousness during his 2 years of hunting apostles.

All of which is to say that I think expecting to see portents of it in the Golden Age is premature.

 

[blodvind]

You misread what I said. We readers and Guts are aware of the origins, of course. Almost an entire volume has been devoted to depicting the eclipse. What I intended to say is that we are unable to comprehend what it must be like to have all of our friends devoured by demons at one friend's command. Additionally, we also had to see our girlfriend being violated by a bird monster that resembled a god-like deity and which was also our best friend.

Thanks for your clarification.

I agree in the following:

we are unable to comprehend what it must be like to have all of our friends devoured by demons at one friend's command. Additionally, we also had to see our girlfriend being violated by a bird monster that resembled a god-like deity and which was also our best friend.

A priori: yes, we are unable to. Upon further consideration, I agree that only occurrence 4 makes sense.

 

[blodvind]

Thanks for your reply.

I was thinking about this during the day. After reading this thread:

I did not start this thread.

There's a lot of subtext with Gambino's dog concerning Guts relationship to Gambino. Guts first real fight against hopeless odds is against a pack of wolves immediately after being cast out of Gambino's camp. Casca later calls him a mad dog or something approximating that. Guts leaves the Falcons to find his own path instead of being Griffith's loyal dog of war (my interpretation given the context). Most recently we see Guts represented as a dog dragging Casca's coffin in her dream.

I'm not a great writer so I would stumble through a more elaborate explanation, but I'll try if this isn't convincing. These are the ones that have stuck out to me, I'd have to go look for more examples, but it seems fitting that Guts' "spirit animal" is the canine.

I now  mostly agree with this:

All of which is to say that I think expecting to see portents of it in the Golden Age is premature.

And with this:

while we point to the Eclipse as the catalyst, I think the Beast was formed gradually during his quest as the Black Swordsman.

I don't think Guts' pre-eclipse trauma makes enough for the development of the BOD. However, can we be sure Guts' pre-eclipse trauma had zero implications in the formation of the BOD? It might be Casca helped him go through this trauma and, therefore, it is independent of the BOD?

Also this:

if we're drawing lines around the Beast's development, was there a moment when it was born?

Exactly my thoughts. Well, why not during the eclipse? At which point, I can't be sure. Casca broke at a specific moment. Can it be the same for Guts? Or maybe at some point during the Black Swordsman?

We can see BOD's gradual development but if we are aware of a time when the BOD did not exist (the Golden Age, as I understand you correctly), then there must be a point in time when the BOD came to be. No? What happens is we don't know when.

Unless... that come to being itself is gradual. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Aazealh]

there must be a point in time when the BOD came to be. No? What happens is we don't know when.

Unless... that come to being itself is gradual. Let me know your thoughts.

Walter's point is that it came into being gradually, as Guts became more and more consumed by the vengeful life he led as the Black Swordsman after the Eclipse. In that sense, the Beast of Darkness can be viewed as another form of the "black flame" that almost destroyed him (which he comments on in volume 17). But if you absolutely need a specific moment for the birth of this particular form for it... you can find it in the eponymous episode, in volume 16.

 

[TheItCrOw]

@blodvind
What @Aazealh and @Walter are saying is what I tried to say as well. So I'm with them as well. I hope it became at least a bit clear from my answer. If not, I have to work on my writing...

 

[blodvind]

Hey, yes. Thanks everyone for the clarifications.

I realized that it is a slippery slope talking about the BOD as an individual who can come to existence by itself. This tends to alienate the BOD from Guts, which is a mistake.