Is Griffith Evil?

[Aazealh]

Of course that's not direct evidence, how does a gravitational effect directly prove that it's a Black Hole that's causing it? It could be anything, like a neutron star, a white dwarf or something we don't even know about.

Hum, I'm not gonna argue on this right now, but there are many things that prove to 99% black holes existence, I think it's better we continue with PMs, anyway, there's a room for scepticism, like for every theory.

To you perhaps it doesn't, but I'm sure Stephen Hawking doesn't see the problem with these type of calculations himself. And if you think this isn't very accurate, I wonder what your thoughts are on (super)string theory.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the theory itself here but about the only way we have to check it, which almost everyone, including Mr. Hawking, consider inaccurate. As for the string and superstring theories, well, they solve the quantum mechanics / general relativity incompatibility, just for that, they imho deserve consideration.

Not only are there only shades of gray, the kind of shades are also different from person to person, culture to culture and time to time.
Well, are we in agreement now? ;D

Well, let's just say that everyone has its own way of judging things, people and acts, which is different from others. It means yeah, we're in agreement ;D.

 

[typhonblue]

Soul Crasher: How do you reconcile an omni-potent God with evil?

If God is absolute, there is nothing above or beyond God, then God is also evil. And who could be more of a psychopath than God? Even if you account for the man-made misery with free will, God still kills millions daily through natural disaster, floods, earthquakes, sickness... and shows no remorse.

 

[SoulCrasher]

If you acknowledge free will, and say that man's actions are not controlled by a higher force, you can also argue that nature is a physical system with rules that is not under the direct control of a higher power. But would the world truly be a fairer place if only good people were immune to harm?

 

[typhonblue]

Why have God at all if man controls his actions and nature obeys it's own laws?

 

[SoulCrasher]

Simply put, I believe in Jesus Christ's teachings on how to live a good life, and acknowledgement of God as creator of the universe, Jesus' father and of Jesus' divinity, that's why I have God. To answer your original argument, God, in the process of creation, built in the inevitability of suffering as a part of His method. Fixed laws are essential for freedom, and floods and earthquakes are simply the inevitable side effects of these laws. I read that someplace.

 

[Walter]

I haven't finished reading the topic yet, but so far it's pure gold. It gets the sticky award, forever (for a few months) immortalized at the top of the Personalities section.

 

[Amadeus]

(Woah... I'm so shocked.. I started an argument on colors....) (Props for me!! *Applauds!*) ;D Juuuuust jokin'.

~*Amadeus*~

That was a THOROUGHLY unproductive post on my part.. Sorry. Don't kill me.

 

[Genn21]

:) , as humble as my humility is i will say i was only the cause on the topic for colors ,still i have to credit all tho for actully doing the input , good work amadeus & soul crusher + mizar ( nice new ave mizar )

 

[Amadeus]

Alrighty then.. Good job with the color topic then. (I guess I was talking about the grayscale subject instead. ::) )

This topic is getting pretty interesting and I WOULD say somthing..... exept... I have work (DAMN!)

...Righty then. Yet one more pointless topic from Amadeus (Who likes to talk in third person).

~*Amadeus*~

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

Woo... this got sidetracked.

Did the colour and/or the religion debate get anywhere on whether Griffith is a good/bad guy?

I'm Swedish, I know a lot of english but it's not my native language. I got confused and couldn't follow the topic anymore. *headspin*

 

[Genn21]

Woo... this got sidetracked.

I'm Swedish, I know a lot of english but it's not my native language. I got confused and couldn't follow the topic anymore. *headspin*

Que..Makk !!! ( tell her about brejnav boys ) http://www.flamjam.com/spank/

well we kinda decided griffith wasnt evil or very very dark on the grey scale or some violent color on the spectrum , yet we havn't discussed his origins in religion ( crap i forgot my midland bible !!! ) but i guess thats what the berserk stories for

 

[6th Angel]

I say Griffith is evil. Lets look at my old friend dictionary.com
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper

Griffith fits all definitions except the last one which is not the definition we are talking about. Unless my translation is wrong Femto admits he is evil himself. He says "For small ghouls you might feel like small needles pricks you. The pain grows for the more evil demons." At this time Griffith is causing Guts to scream in pain.
The larger dream does not justify it either. Look at it through a small dream perspective. If my dream was to have a huge house and my best friend had one. If I got rid of him I could take it. I went over to his house and slaughtered his family in front of him, raped his girlfriend making him cut off his arm, and then stabbed him in the eye with a ball point pen before he was rescued. That would make me evil. The rape scene is Griffith saying, p.s. I'm evil.

 

[Smith]

Look at it through a small dream perspective. If my dream was to have a huge house and my best friend had one. If I got rid of him I could take it. I went over to his house and slaughtered his family in front of him, raped his girlfriend making him cut off his arm, and then stabbed him in the eye with a ball point pen before he was rescued. That would make me evil. The rape scene is Griffith saying, p.s. I'm evil.

Wow, that was a very nice example

 

[BlackSwordsman]

Yeah I say Griffith is evil. But I don't think he was evil in the beginning (I don't think I spelled that right.) I say that Griffith in the beginning was neither good nor evil he was neutral. He would do whatever to achieve his dream. Then when he was rescued from the dungeon and summoned the God Hand he turned evil because of his mental state. But more than that I think he was just more than depressed. IMO he did all of that for his dream of course, but in a way the rape of Caska and stuff, he did that to like get back at Guts for leaving him. So basically he knew he couldn't achieve the dream he lived for, for so long unless he made this decision and he said besides pretty much accomplishing my goal I could get revenge on Guts too (torture him like I was tortured for that year.) So it was pretty much a double whammy and then he became a God Hand which basically makes him evil anyways so I would say Pre Eclipse Griffith Neutral. Post Eclipse Griffith/Femto Evil. I consider Griffith dead anyways since the only thing that remained of him was pretty much his mind and he had a whole new godly body. But then he returned as Griffith so I really don't know but in my overall opinion Griffith "died" when he changed into a God Hand, and he was neutral. Griffith and Femto are two different people (in a way.)

 

[Walter]

I say that Griffith in the beginning was neither good nor evil he was neutral. He would do whatever to achieve his dream.

And things are different now?

Then when he was rescued from the dungeon and summoned the God Hand he turned evil because of his mental state.

Don't you hate it when you wake up on those days and you're suddenly in your EVIL MENTAL STATE?

IMO he did all of that for his dream of course, but in a way the rape of Caska and stuff, he did that to like get back at Guts for leaving him.

So like, what about like, the demon baby like totally being the vessel for like... Griffith's Reborn body? Sounds like, like he knew what he was doing like all along?

I consider Griffith dead anyways since the only thing that remained of him was pretty much his mind and he had a whole new godly body.

I really don't understand your logic here. If you want to get down and dirty, you've shed every cell on your body since you were born, so you're actually not YOU anymore. You're dead to me, since you have a new body.

But then he returned as Griffith so I really don't know but in my overall opinion Griffith "died" when he changed into a God Hand, and he was neutral. Griffith and Femto are two different people (in a way.)

No. Common misconception. The only thing that makes them different is their forms. Femto is Griffith's ethereal form, purely of mind. Griffith is the physical body. They're the same mind.

I really think these anti-Griffith people are still hung up on JODO's DEATH! BOO HOO! He killed Pippen! He wuz so C00l! GRrarr! GRIFF IS SO GAY! HE HAD BUT SEX FOR $$ HAR HAR!

 

[BlackSwordsman]

The main idea is that Griffith is neutral and he's kind of a nut.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

I really think these anti-Griffith people are still hung up on JODO's DEATH! BOO HOO! He killed Pippen! He wuz so C00l! GRrarr! GRIFF IS SO GAY! HE HAD BUT SEX FOR $$ HAR HAR!

Oh, wow... I have been so blind! What logic! What arguments! What sparkling wit! I see the light now, Griffith is just misunderstood - a poor, tortured, mistreated soul who deserves our pity, understanding and admiration! Thank you! thank you for making me SEE!!!

.....
....No, seriously. What do you REALLY mean?
Yes, I hated it when Judeau died, and I hated it that Pippin died, and I hated it that all the other Hawks died.... and I think it was kinda unchivalric of Griffith/Femto to rape Caska... But are you saying that it is wrong of me to think so? Seriously?

I don't see your point, Walter. Please explain?

 

[Walter]

But are you saying that it is wrong of me to think so? Seriously?

It's not wrong, just naive.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

Once again, your arguments astound me.

Do you have a POINT to make?

Humour me, me stoopid svedish vuh-man. No get wha' mighty Val-ter wants to say.

Killing everyone under your command makes you a bad person = naive statement?

Raping a woman who adores and admires you makes you a bad person = naive statement?

Well, golly-me-jeebus, colour me naive, then! I happen to believe in so called mor-als.

 

[Walter]

Geez... Can't see the forest for the trees.

These aren't senseless acts of violence or hatred, there's an underlying purpose in Griffith's actions. Call if evil if you want, but that's just a single aspect of his character. It sure does suck for Guts and Casca but ... they're the ones who attached themselves to such an ambitious person. Are they victims of EVIL DEMON MAN, or just stupid?

Also, sarcasm in response to sarcasm waters down any intended comedy.

edit:

...Miura sure is good at capturing the complexity of the human nature.
*envy*

You were onto something here, but you abandoned your objective perspective once I made fun of your dear, dear Jodo.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

Hmmm... well, no. Like I've said before, I don't believe in good or evil - I believe in right or wrong, and morals.
And, ultimately, the only thing a person can be totally responsible for is his own actions... but on the other hand, he MUST take full responsibility for them, too.
(I know a lot of hackles are going up now, but it's true - circumstances certainly plays in, but once you've made a choice, you must be able to stand for it, too.)

Okay, it was probably stupid for the Hawks (Judeau, Gatts... all of 'em) to get involved with Griffith in the first place. The man never tried to imply that he had more morals than ambition, and surely everybody understood that he would sacrifice them in the blink of an eye for his ambition... but I can't see how that would somehow make it all right for him to actually do so.

And I have yet to hear a convincing argument on this...

...and, honestly, what got my fire started was the arrogant way you just stated your opinion without trying to explain it, (I missed the intended joke - I was disappointed at once again getting no explanation on why Griffith is so special that he can get away with basically anything in so many fans' opinions) and it didn't get better when you simply called me naive and said nothing more.

Judeau has little to nothing to do with that. But yes, I really shouldn't write while I'm angry, and for that I am sorry - I always say things I later regret. Sorry.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

*phuh*
Okay, all right, hang on...

What I'm trying to say here is that I will listen to reason. I will listen to arguments and I will listen to logic.

So far I think that Griffith is a cold, weak, despicable person who has commited a despicable act, but if you guys want to like him, hey, that's fine with me.
However, if you want to try to convince me that he is really a misunderstood good guy who didn't really do anything wrong, you're going to have to use better arguments.

I mean, "The Hawks chose to follow him, they have only themselves to blame"?
That's like saying "She was wearing a skimpy dress! She was asking for it!" about a rape victim. I'm not buying that.

 

[Makkuro]

Here's what I think: Griffith is not evil, because there is no evil. People don't do bad things because they're bad - they do them because it makes sense to them or because they're desperate. I think the sacrifice of the Hawks sort of falls into both categories.

That's not to say the Hawks aren't victims, they are. But then, so are all the innocent grunts the Hawks slaughtered. Griffith knew he had to walk over tens of thosands of corpses to achieve his dream, and it made sense to him. The Hawks were just another few yards of pavement.

 

[SexyCharlotte]

NO... BUT HIS DEEDS WERE...I've said this time and time again


In the scene where Griffith is 'deciding' to sacrifice the Hawks, the old lady is convincing him that he' CAN'T GO BACK ANYWAYS UNLESS HE WANTS TO JOIN THE DEAD HIMSELF. '

Griffith the Child was shown OPTIONS. At one point, he was crying and fell down on the ground and said, " I CAN'T." The little boy who died long ago fighting for Griffith comes to him as a spirit and Griffith still says, " I can't take you with me because you're dead."

Guts shows up as a dream and says," This is all for your dream...what does it matter?" And that was a playback from when Griffith asked him after the Queen was burned and the hired henchmen killed, he asked Guts, " DO YOU THINK I AM A BAD PERSON?"

All these images were used to convince Griffith ( though in his heart his heart he wanted to be a King, he still was unsure in deciding until he is convinced totally) to sacrifice the Hawks for his dream.

Griffith then said " WHY REGRET THE PAST? WHY WORRY AND REGRET ABOUT PAST SINS ANYWAYS?" In other words, he would have regrets if what he knew he was about to do was a terrible sin.

My point is that it seemed the 'convincing' in the sequence before he makes his terrible decision was really biased. And then Void plays upon it too, telling Griffith, this is WHO YOU ARE. He then says, LEAVE YOUR TATTERED BODY TO THEM. Slann says, THEY WILL BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOUR DREAM.

And then the final action where Griffith solidifies the sacrificing is when he see Guts, and says, " You were the only one to make me forget my dream...."

So to me, when people say, well he was evil...yes he was ruthless and selfish and cold. At the same time, he also hesitated killing Guts in the manga. If he was still so evil and inhuman even as Femto, he would have had no hesitation, no qualms about killing Guts. At this point I can say that he did have feelings.

Griffith's 'wrongdoing' was a combination of being coerced, his terrible torture, and also his own selfishness, but I don't think it adds up to him being purely evil.

LG

 

[Walter]

There was no convincing. That was causality.