Author Topic: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?  (Read 34445 times)

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Offline Doc

Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« on: June 09, 2009, 09:17:44 PM »
Hey there, I'm new to this here forum!

I was wondering if anyone felt sympathy for the Apostles with tragic backstories, such as the Count, Rosine, Ganishka, or hell even the God Hand's very own Griffith?

I certainly felt for the Count. To be betrayed by his own consort (with his enemies for good measure) is one hell of a tough break. Although I don't condone for a moment the monster he become, at least he carried some vestige of humanity - since he spared his daughter's life.

Also, I think Niko (sp?) from the *DC game had quite a sad tale. It would appear he sacrificed his only companion - his dog - to become the Mandragoran daddy. 

*On a side-note: Did Miura have any creative involvement with the DC game?



Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 09:25:19 PM »
*On a side-note: Did Miura have any creative involvement with the DC game?

He wrote the story. :guts:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 09:31:12 PM »
I don't feel anything but hatered for apostles. No matter what tragic event has plagued their life, in the end they took the easy way out and gave in to evil. They cut their tie with humanity by sacrificing someone they love for their own selfishness. If I think about the people in this world who mean the most to me, I know that I would never sacrifice them to some horrible death no matter how unfortunate my situation is.

Don't sympathize with apostles!!! THey are evil now and they were evil enough to make the choice when they were still human.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 07:21:37 AM by Oburi »

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 09:42:53 PM »
I don't feel anything but hatered for apostles. No matter what tragic event has plagued their life, in the end they took the easy way out and gave in to evil. They cut their tie with humanity by sacrificing someone they love for their own selfishness. If I think about the people in this world who mean the most to me, I know that I would never sacrifice them to some horrible death no matter how unfortunate my situation is.

Don't sympathize with apostles!!! THey are evil now and they would were evil enough to make the choice when they were still human.
Even if they are starting to show sympathy for humans and even anger towards the chibinishka's that hurt Humans? Is it too late for them to get redemption?
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 09:47:22 PM »
Hey there, I'm new to this here forum!

Hi Doc and welcome to SK.net! :SK:

I was wondering if anyone felt sympathy for the Apostles with tragic backstories, such as the Count, Rosine, Ganishka, or hell even the God Hand's very own Griffith?

Careful there, a member of the God Hand like Griffith can't be compared to an apostle! Anyway, I guess I did feel sorry for some of them. Rosine is probably the best example. The Count as well, to some extent.

*On a side-note: Did Miura have any creative involvement with the DC game?

It's like Rhombaad said: he wrote the story.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 11:25:13 PM »
Hey there, I'm new to this here forum!

I was wondering if anyone felt sympathy for the Apostles with tragic backstories, such as the Count, Rosine, Ganishka, or hell even the God Hand's very own Griffith?

I certainly felt for the Count. To be betrayed by his own consort (with his enemies for good measure) is one hell of a tough break. Although I don't condone for a moment the monster he become, at least he carried some vestige of humanity - since he spared his daughter's life.

Also, I think Niko (sp?) from the *DC game had quite a sad tale. It would appear he sacrificed his only companion - his dog - to become the Mandragoran daddy. 

*On a side-note: Did Miura have any creative involvement with the DC game?


I don't know if I'd feel sympathy for them.  If someone like Guts can go through a hellish life and still maintain the ability to have friends/comrades and fight to protect them then I can feel sympathy for him. Sacrificing those closest to you in order to feel some sort of twisted sense of justice for their plight doesn't work in their favor. The count at least was faced with sacrificing his daughter and went to hell instead, sparing her life, so that was a step in the right direction.
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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 12:15:18 AM »
Though not an apostle, I carried a bit of sympathy for Femto for a little while after the eclipse. Also, Rosine to some extent, and we can thank Jill for that mostly. That whole part of Berserk seemed particularly tragic to me. I never cared about the Count at all, he always seemed like a complete bastard to me.

If something happened to Irvine I could see myself having sympathy also, even though we know close to nothing about him.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 12:59:47 AM »
Though not an apostle, I carried a bit of sympathy for Femto for a little while after the eclipse. Also, Rosine to some extent, and we can thank Jill for that mostly. That whole part of Berserk seemed particularly tragic to me. I never cared about the Count at all, he always seemed like a complete bastard to me.

If something happened to Irvine I could see myself having sympathy also, even though we know close to nothing about him.

I'd have to see the back story to how Irvine and other apostles became what they are before deciding whether they are deserving of sympathy or not. Seeing Griffith/Femto's end is one of the reasons I read Berserk, I feel no sympathy for him/it after the eclipse.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline noni_moon

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 07:09:00 AM »
Well, I defiantly felt and still feel sympathy for Griffith (though he's not really an apostle). Rosine's backstory was completely heartbreaking for me too  :sad:, and even though I never cared about Ganishka.. I did felt a little bit sorry for him in the end.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 07:22:30 AM »
Though not an apostle, I carried a bit of sympathy for Femto for a little while after the eclipse.

What? Can you explain how? I'm dying to hear this.

Offline noni_moon

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 08:03:16 AM »
Quote
What? Can you explain how? I'm dying to hear this.

I think he meant the 'reborn' Griffith, maybe? (since they're both one in the same, for the most part). Femto is badass and creepy as hell, but hardly 'sympathetic'.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 10:37:47 AM »
I think he meant the 'reborn' Griffith, maybe? (since they're both one in the same, for the most part). Femto is badass and creepy as hell, but hardly 'sympathetic'.

Is that what he meant? I still don't get it at all.

Offline noni_moon

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 11:43:23 AM »
Quote
I still don't get it at all.


*insert deep voice of wisdom here* you will learn one day, son  :griffnotevil:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 06:21:18 PM »


*insert deep voice of wisdom here* you will learn one day, son  :griffnotevil:

There is nothing to "learn". He said he feels bad for Femto a little while after the eclipse. Thats retarded.

I guess he feels bad that he missed Skullknight with his telekinesis blast, he must have been a little worked up after brutally raping Casca all that time.  He finally gets all these super powers and he messes up his first chance to use them, right in front of the GOdhand no less. Embarrassing!! Poor Femto  :sad:

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2009, 06:30:56 PM »
I kind of feel bad for Griffith for sacrificing his friends, humanity and chance of happiness all for his dream, which is really a puppet show for an evil god. I think we'll see him realize his folly toward the end of the series. His character development isn't through, I'd imagine.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2009, 06:43:02 PM »
Yep, Griffith is merely nothing more than a pawn in the Idea's game in the end too. He could possibly become the first God Hand to have a problem with that...(the others seem to have accepted it). He is far too ambitious (reckless) to allow himself to be controlled.

And to answer the question, yes I do feel sorry for most of the Apostles that have had back stories, especially Rosine, the Count, Balzac (yes, I know the game is only semi-canon, but it's still a story written by Miura) and even Ganishka(!) Miura is a master storyteller and he gives us a good deal of back story, he doesn't over do it either. I do wonder how he will make us sympathise with the likes of Zodd (haha) and Rakshas (again, don't see it happening, but I thought the same for Ganishka...)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2009, 07:22:46 PM »
Yep, Griffith is merely nothing more than a pawn in the Idea's game in the end too.

I wouldn't say that. He plays his part willingly and he gets the most from it. The beings who compose the God Hand are the direct agents of the Idea of Evil.

He could possibly become the first God Hand to have a problem with that...

What are you basing this statement on? Femto does whatever he wants, like the rest of the God Hand. Only what he wants was planned long before his birth and fits into a greater scheme. He has no problem with anything as far as we know.

(the others seem to have accepted it)

That's an absolutely groundless assertion.

He is far too ambitious (reckless) to allow himself to be controlled.

You're thinking of this way too simplistically. Besides, don't forget where Femto got his power and status from.

Offline noni_moon

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2009, 04:02:07 AM »
Quote
There is nothing to "learn". He said he feels bad for Femto a little while after the eclipse. Thats retarded.

I guess he feels bad that he missed Skullknight with his telekinesis blast, he must have been a little worked up after brutally raping Casca all that time.  He finally gets all these super powers and he messes up his first chance to use them, right in front of the GOdhand no less. Embarrassing!! Poor Femto 


Ummmm.. chill? =/ it's a joke. Besides, the guy is entitled to feel whatever the heck he wants to feel about any character. I personally don't know why would anyone feel sorry for the Count.. but hey, who cares, really?


Quote
His character development isn't through, I'd imagine.

Yep. I'd say so.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2009, 05:08:57 AM »


Ummmm.. chill? =/ it's a joke. Besides, the guy is entitled to feel whatever the heck he wants to feel about any character.

Yea he can have his opinion but when he states something a little outlandish like that and all I ask is for him to explain himself you shouldn't start jumping in and making "jokes" and trying to answer for him.

Offline noni_moon

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2009, 06:56:18 AM »
Quote
Yea he can have his opinion but when he states something a little outlandish like that and all I ask is for him to explain himself you shouldn't start jumping in and making "jokes" and trying to answer for him.

 :???: ... I think you're taking this way too seriously, dude.  But whatever, nevermind. -_-

Offline slan69

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2009, 07:25:33 AM »
The only apostle i felt for had to be Roshinu because her story was kinda sad to me :judo:
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Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2009, 01:20:01 PM »
Hi Doc and welcome to SK.net! :SK:

Thank you, good sir.

Quote from: Aazealh
Careful there, a member of the God Hand like Griffith can't be compared to an apostle! Anyway, I guess I did feel sorry for some of them. Rosine is probably the best example. The Count as well, to some extent.

It's more or less the same premise: The individual succumbs to despair; the God Hand appear and offer them power for sacrifice. Griffith just ranked higher on the food chain than most.

Quote from: Aazealh
It's like Rhombaad said: he wrote the story.

That's good to know. Thanks.

And to answer the question, yes I do feel sorry for most of the Apostles that have had back stories, especially Rosine, the Count, Balzac (yes, I know the game is only semi-canon, but it's still a story written by Miura) and even Ganishka(!) Miura is a master storyteller and he gives us a good deal of back story, he doesn't over do it either. I do wonder how he will make us sympathise with the likes of Zodd (haha) and Rakshas (again, don't see it happening, but I thought the same for Ganishka...)

You felt for Ganishka? That's interesting. I haven't heard much feedback on his backstory. Would you care to divulge? I'd like to know your reasons. :)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2009, 02:06:29 PM »
It's more or less the same premise: The individual succumbs to despair; the God Hand appear and offer them power for sacrifice. Griffith just ranked higher on the food chain than most.

Regardless of the premise, apostles and members of the God Hand are completely different beings and making an amalgam of the two is wrong. "Ranking higher on the food chain than most" is not a good way to put it either. That's not how things work. It's not fortuitous that Griffith became Femto and not just an apostle. It's not just because he was stronger than the others.

You felt for Ganishka? That's interesting. I haven't heard much feedback on his backstory. Would you care to divulge? I'd like to know your reasons. :)

His backstory is revealed in episode 303. He lived in constant danger of being assassinated as the heir to the throne of a small country when he was young. His own mother tried to poison him when he was 6 in order to put his younger brother on the throne. It failed and he killed his brother himself shortly afterwards. As a result his mother killed herself. Things went on and there were countless conspiracies against him while he grew up. His father himself feared him and was suspicious of him, and so one day while he was on a trip Ganishka had him assassinated. Once he became king there was still no respite for him as the leaders of other countries tried to take advantage of the situation to conquer his land. He fought in wars constantly and had to terrify his enemies more than he was himself in order to survive.

Following the customs of warring countries, he ended up marrying a woman from one of the neighboring countries' royal families and had a son. However, he was always away fighting battles, so he didnít take care of his family. He was afraid of what they represented, a mother and her son, like his own mother and younger brother way back then. During all that time he conquered more and more land, becoming a great emperor whose ambition was to dominate every country in a futile try to suffocate his fear. Finally, one day, his son, who had become much like he was himself at his age, had him assassinated. But Ganishka had received a beherit from a nameless hermit (Daiba) a while back, and so he called upon the God Hand, and sacrificed his only child.

Online Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2009, 03:54:09 PM »
Honestly, I think the reader is supposed to feel sympathy for the apostles, especially examples like the Count, Rosine and Ganishka, where we're given explicit background details about how/why they became apostles.

If you DON'T feel sympathy, you're doing it wrong  :carcus:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2009, 04:09:59 PM »
Regardless of the premise, apostles and members of the God Hand are completely different beings and making an amalgam of the two is wrong.

But I never spoke outside of the premise.

Quote from: Aazealh
"Ranking higher on the food chain than most" is not a good way to put it either. That's not how things work.

Isn't it?

IoE > God Hand > Apostles > Humans et al.

Looks pretty straightforward to me.

Quote from: Aazealh
It's not fortuitous that Griffith became Femto and not just an apostle. It's not just because he was stronger than the others.

I didn't suggest either. I was merely saying Griffith sold his soul in the same way the Apostles did, except the reward was greater for Griffith.

Quote from: Aazealh
His backstory is revealed in episode 303. He lived in constant danger of being assassinated as the heir to the throne of a small country when he was young. His own mother tried to poison him when he was 6 in order to put his younger brother on the throne. It failed and he killed his brother himself shortly afterwards. As a result his mother killed herself. Things went on and there were countless conspiracies against him while he grew up. His father himself feared him and was suspicious of him, and so one day while he was on a trip Ganishka had him assassinated. Once he became king there was still no respite for him as the leaders of other countries tried to take advantage of the situation to conquer his land. He fought in wars constantly and had to terrify his enemies more than he was himself in order to survive.

Following the customs of warring countries, he ended up marrying a woman from one of the neighboring countries' royal families and had a son. However, he was always away fighting battles, so he didnít take care of his family. He was afraid of what they represented, a mother and her son, like his own mother and younger brother way back then. During all that time he conquered more and more land, becoming a great emperor whose ambition was to dominate every country in a futile try to suffocate his fear. Finally, one day, his son, who had become much like he was himself at his age, had him assassinated. But Ganishka had received a beherit from a nameless hermit (Daiba) a while back, and so he called upon the God Hand, and sacrificed his only child.

Thanks for the summation. I have read Chap 303, but I haven't seen anyone reflect on his backstory.
By the way, I take it this part is a translation error:
'Obsessed with me, to make sure my younger brother wouldn't get to the throne, my mother poisoned him when he was only six.'

That makes it sound like Ganishka was being protected by his mother, instead of the opposite. Seems to be confusing the two brothers.