Author Topic: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?  (Read 34475 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2009, 07:42:30 AM »
so what would you qualify him as? a quasi apostle?

Yes, that's exactly what Guts calls him. A quasi or pseudo-apostle.

also, you seem miffed at that someone could feel for Femto, you could find sympathy for a lot of disgusting figures, sure I mentioned the apotles we got back story on, but that shows they're not all just some 100% evil raping monsters, they're still human when you get to the bottom of it, and that may be a chilling fact, but that can also allow for some sympathy, even for Femto.(not an apostle, but just using him as part of my point.)

We're shown things about the apostles mentioned that are meant to make us feel something for them. Femto is just coldly evil. So no, honestly I don't think anyone's supposed to feel sympathy for him. And really, apostles and members of the God Hand are different. I would say that apostles are more human, in a way.

Hehehe well im sure we would all like to know how Slan became what she is know that is if the God Hand were ever even human to begin with

They were. It's clearly stated in the manga.

Offline slan69

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2009, 07:44:53 AM »
They were. It's clearly stated in the manga.


Shit my bad time to go back and re-read Berserk, Sorry about that mistake by the way i agree with you Grail I do not think all the apostles are 100% evil
Quote -

Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life, death. Everything is there… This is human... This is demonic!

~Slan~

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2009, 10:12:30 AM »
And they are 100% evil, never forget that.

I don't think it's right to make such blanket statements. To say someone is 100% evil suggests they are indiscriminately vile without rhyme or reason. If The Count was evil to the core, he would have sacrificed his daughter, no? And how about Griffith: He's leading the people to their apparent salvation. They see him as their saviour, whereas Guts (the audience) are on the other side of the fence. Perception and circumstance also comes into play here.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2009, 03:15:41 PM »
Just posting to say that I hope you're wrong on that, as they're still such crucial figures to the story that I'd like to see atleast who they were pre-godhand, especially Slan. :o
Remnants of [apostles'] humanity come through pretty clearly in their respective portions of the story, so I think it's safe to say that Miura intends the reader to sympathize with apostles, despite understanding what horrible monsters they've become.
Chiming in now with what I was going to post earlier... but fell asleep. I'm not sure Miura will want the readers to sympathize with the God Hand in the same sense as the apostles. Which is why I don't think they'll get an extensive backstory explanation. But it's his story and we'll see what he does with it.

As for apostles being evil, there's really no doubt. The sacrificial ceremony allows evil to taint their existence. But it's pretty clear from the Count's case in particular that he wasn't "100%" evil. He couldn't make that second sacrifice because of the remnants of his humanity.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2009, 04:40:09 PM »
I'll not take back what I said about apostles being 100% evil. I was just trying to make the point that there is no redemption for what they did. Even the Count who didn't sacrifice Theresia the second time doesn't make me think "Aww you see that, there is some good in him after all". Why because he has some sick obsession with his daughter who reminded him of his wife that he destroyed and he sheltered her and kept her prisoner in his castle? He also killed who knows how many people and mutilated them and ate their bodies and got away with it for a while until Guts came into town. Think about serial killers today. Would Ed Gien be any less evil if it were him? OK so before Guts puts some of the Apostles to death they are reminded of their humanity and they have nice little flashbacks to their tragic human lives. I have yet to see an Apostle do anything that has made think "well he's not completely evil". They all fight Guts to their last dying breath and then in their final moments when they realize that it is end of their pathetic life they have a moment to reflect. Dosn't really make them any better.
And why are we separating apostles like the Count and Roshine from Wyald and The Snake Baron? It's like they are all in the same boat, if we saw every backstory would you think "apostles are just misunderstood" :schierke: They all have their backstories (their excuses) but in the end they are evil, their intentions are pure evil.

I don't think it's right to make such blanket statements. To say someone is 100% evil suggests they are indiscriminately vile without rhyme or reason. If The Count was evil to the core, he would have sacrificed his daughter, no? And how about Griffith: He's leading the people to their apparent salvation. They see him as their saviour, whereas Guts (the audience) are on the other side of the fence. Perception and circumstance also comes into play here.

lol What? perception and circumstance? tell that to Casca. :schierke: Dude Griffith is Evil, maybe not everyone realizes it yet (including you!) but they will. Just wait for the next few episodes. You'll be in for a surprise and you will most likely reconsider.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2009, 06:18:28 PM »
I'll not take back what I said about apostles being 100% evil. I was just trying to make the point that there is no redemption for what they did. Even the Count who didn't sacrifice Teresa the second time doesn't make me think "Aww you see that, there is some good in him after all". Why because he has some sick obsession with his daughter who reminded him of his wife that he destroyed and he sheltered her and kept her prisoner in his castle? He also killed who knows how many people and mutilated them and ate their body's and got away with it for a while until Guts came into town. Think about serial killers today. Would Ed Gien be any less evil if it were him?
The problem people are having with your 100% thing is that there are very clear examples of apostles making good choices -- going against their evil nature. And as I've already stated, the count's example explicitly disproves your notion -- there is humanity left in these beings despite their tainted existence. THey are not 100% evil then, by definition.

I think your Ed Gein example is quite misplaced. This isn't a courtroom. Apostles are evil, and have murdered but they aren't all sociopaths.  They clearly express emotions, and in many cases have a conscience. Really, it's AS IF they're human beings bent toward evil, but still possessing human traits. Imagine!  :troll:

Quote
And why are we separating apostles like the Count and Roshine from Wyald and The Snake Baron? It's like they are all in the same boat, if we saw every backstory would you think "apostles are just misunderstood" :schierke: They all have their backstories (their excuses) but in the end they are evil, their intentions are pure evil.
ALL their intentions are pure evil? Wow, that's a fascinating generalization! Let's go through a quick checklist.

-When the Count didn't sacrifice his daughter and chose instead eternal damnation for himself, that was pure evil. Check.
-When Zodd let Guts and Skull Knight go after the eclipse, that was pure evil. Check.
-When Rosine was dying and giving Jill that she'll get through life, even with the bad stuff -- pure evil. Check.
-When the Beherit-Apostle pulled Luca aside and told her his tale, 100% evil. Check.
-When Grunbeld saves Sonia and Mule from the apostles in the forest, even though he was acting on orders, that was just pure evil. Plain and simple. Check.
-When Irvine tucks Sonia in for sleepy time at the campfire -- pure fucking evil. Check!

Quote
Dude Griffith is Evil, maybe not everyone realizes it yet (including you!) but they will. Just wait for the next few episodes. You'll be in for a surprise and you will most likely reconsider.
What.. what are you saying? Griffith isn't evil! He's good! GOOD! See:  :griffnotevil: ?!
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2009, 06:49:23 PM »
The problem I have with your checklist Walter is that just because it doesn't seem evil (like tucking Sonia in) it's all for the greater evil. They are on the bad side, thats my point. Just because they are helping the humans that they need at this time doesn't make them any better. In fact it it may make them worse, they are manipulating these people, using them. In the end, if they win then.. well i dont know what exactly but it can't be good right? They are fighting on  :idea:'s side. I mean I love all the characters, and I love how an Apostle like Irvine can show emotion that isn't hate/death/destruction, but I'm not going to let that get the better of me, he's still an evil fuck who at some point sacrificed someone he loved for his own selfishness.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2009, 07:04:30 PM »
And why are we separating apostles like the Count and Roshine from Wyald and The Snake Baron? It's like they are all in the same boat, if we saw every backstory would you think "apostles are just misunderstood" :schierke: They all have their backstories (their excuses) but in the end they are evil, their intentions are pure evil.

Because you're making sweeping statements instead of judging every character by his/her own merits. Yes, they are monsters who commit heinous acts, but to say each and every one is "100% evil" is flawed - as proven with the Count.

lol What? perception and circumstance? tell that to Casca. :schierke: Dude Griffith is Evil, maybe not everyone realizes it yet (including you!) but they will. Just wait for the next few episodes. You'll be in for a surprise and you will most likely reconsider.

Eh. Perhaps you missed the part where I said Griffith is an antagonist to Guts, and by extension the audience. But even that doesn't necessarily make him PURE EVIL. Like I said, Griffith represents the hopes of many people. If he protects them and delivers salvation, does that make him baleful in their eyes? That's what I was getting at.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2009, 07:05:07 PM »
I'll not take back what I said about apostles being 100% percent evil.
an Apostle like Irving can show emotion that isn't hate/death/destruction
Don't you see the conflict here? No one's trying to say apostles aren't humans that ATTEMPTED to sever their ties to humanity by becoming evil. No one's saying "Awww, Snake Baron, you had a hard life. You're forgiven!" These guys are all on the chopping block as far as I'm concerned. But you're taking that perspective to such an extreme that it's obtuse.

The sacrificial ceremony clearly isn't enough to wash away ALL of their conscience and humanity, because they still do good things. You don't need to convince me that what apostles are doing ON THE WHOLE is evil. I'm well aware, and I'm unsure of how you came to the conclusion I'm not... But if they were 100% evil, they would not spend time tucking little girls in, no matter how you cut it. Now, 97% or 99%, I may agree with you!

And THIS guy represents the other end of that obtuseness  :ganishka: :
Eh. Perhaps you missed the part where I said Griffith is an antagonist to Guts, and by extension the audience. But even that doesn't necessarily make him PURE EVIL. Like I said, Griffith represents the hopes of many people. If he protects them and delivers salvation, does that make him baleful in their eyes? That's what I was getting at.
Of course he's not going to appear baleful to the ignorant masses of Midland and beyond. They're fucking "blind white sheep!" They wouldn't need saving or salvation at all if it weren't for Griffith's joining the God Hand. The entirety of human suffering was orchestrated for a millennia to bring him to the point he's at -- to act as their savior and to place him in their favor. This isn't a rescue operation for him, it's a charade.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2009, 07:17:35 PM »
And THIS guy represents the other end of that obtuseness  :ganishka: :Of course he's not going to appear baleful to the ignorant masses of Midland and beyond. They're fucking "blind white sheep!" They wouldn't need saving or salvation at all if it weren't for Griffith's joining the God Hand. The entirety of human suffering was orchestrated for a millennia to bring him to the point he's at -- to act as their savior and to place him in their favor. This isn't a rescue operation for him, it's a charade.

It doesn't really matter, does it? Or are the folk of Midland supposed to perceive this entire scenario and stick two fingers up to Griffith? In their eyes, he is a saviour. Whether they're faith is misguided or not is irrelevant in this case.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2009, 07:22:47 PM »
Maybe I missed something in this long tangent. But why are the beliefs of the blind white sheep, ya know, fictional characters, relevant in a thread titled "Did YOU feel for any of the Apostles"? (and by extension, I guess we've moved the topic over to Griffith).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2009, 08:05:56 PM »
I'll not take back what I said about apostles being 100% evil.

There's really no interest in trying to simplify things to the extreme like you're doing here.

And how about Griffith: He's leading the people to their apparent salvation. They see him as their saviour, whereas Guts (the audience) are on the other side of the fence. Perception and circumstance also comes into play here.

Perception and circumstance mean nothing. Whether a fictional character is oblivious to the fact that Femto is evil or not is irrelevant because the reader sure isn't. We know he's bad for sure because the author has been telling us about it since he first appeared, and the author's word is final.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said Griffith is an antagonist to Guts, and by extension the audience. But even that doesn't necessarily make him PURE EVIL.

No, what makes him "pure evil" is being a member of the God Hand and an agent of the Idea of Evil.

In their eyes, he is a saviour. Whether they're faith is misguided or not is irrelevant in this case.

What's irrelevant is the opinion of the ignorant fictional masses being manipulated by the arch-villain. Femto is evil, and his posturing as a nice guy doesn't change that in the least. Besides, he's a savior from a threat manufactured for the sole purpose of him being a savior. It's all orchestrated by the same people.

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2009, 08:16:45 PM »
Only the Sith deal in absolutes! Maybe Oburi is PURE EVIL... dun dun dun! But oh wait, even Darth Vader had some good in him left! :troll:

But in all seriousness, Guts is pretty evil from time to time as well, as has already been mentioned. There's nothing wrong with sympathizing with certain "bad guys" from time to time, even Griffith. Not everyone who supports Griffith is warped in their perception of the story, our interpretations of certain characters are subjective. Comic books aren't realism or naturalism, but they're not abstract either. That's what makes them so special. The author gives us the information in a straight forward manner and we draw our own opinions. In Berserk's case, I'd say Miura wants us to sympathize with some of the "bad guys" to certain extents, including Griffith/Femto.

I think there's confusion here between sympathizing and actually rooting for. I doubt anyone here actually thinks any of the apostles and/or God Hand aren't evil, or supports their decisions to sacrifice their loved ones. But they can understand their decision to do so.

Even the most normal and good-hearted people do fucked up things in fucked up situations. I got a few horror stories myself of great friends completely fucking me over due to circumstance, and I don't hate them for doing so. If Griffith or Rosine or any other apostle had been in a better situation when they were offered the choice to sacrifice their loved ones, they probably wouldn't have done so. That's why we are given this explanation of Causality and how certain events had to take place prior to their sacrificial ceremonies. Apostles, and the God Hand especially, are all victims of Causality and the Idea of Evil specifically, and I don't have a problem sympathizing with that.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2009, 09:12:22 PM »
Perception and circumstance mean nothing. Whether a fictional character is oblivious to the fact that Femto is evil or not is irrelevant because the reader sure isn't. We know he's bad for sure because the author has been telling us about it since he first appeared, and the author's word is final.

We're not talking about the reader though, are we?

No, what makes him "pure evil" is being a member of the God Hand and an agent of the Idea of Evil.

Does that make the Count pure evil then?

What's irrelevant is the opinion of the ignorant fictional masses being manipulated by the arch-villain. Femto is evil, and his posturing as a nice guy doesn't change that in the least. Besides, he's a savior from a threat manufactured for the sole purpose of him being a savior. It's all orchestrated by the same people.

Doesn't sound much different from any other world leader. :D

If Griffith creates his glorious kingdom and the people of Midland live in peace, (orchestrated by the IoE or not) does that make him pure evil? If something good can come out of his 'dream', then I beg to differ. That doesn't mean Griffith isn't a villain and a manipulative wolf in sheep's clothing, but 100% guaranteed evil in a tin? Hmmm... 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2009, 09:17:40 PM »
We're not talking about the reader though, are we?

Yes we are. Thread title is: "Did you feel for any of the apostles?" I don't know why you started talking about the people of Midland in the first place since what they think doesn't matter in the least here.

Does that make the Count pure evil then?

Not necessarily. I have the feeling you haven't been reading my posts in this thread very carefully. Members of the God Hand and apostles are very different beings. But since you ask, you should know that Femto tells the Count in volume 3 that his soul is "limitlessly close to evil". Which in Japanese is a way to say that he's 99.9% evil (and it pains me to have to put it in those terms just so that people can understand it).

Doesn't sound much different from any other world leader. :D

It is, in fact, quite different.

If Griffith creates his glorious kingdom and the people of Midland live in peace, (orchestrated by the IoE or not) does that make him pure evil?

Griffith and the other members of the God Hand are evil, regardless of what their actions may look like at a particular point. They themselves willingly acknowledge this fact in the manga. And frankly, those attempts to classify evilness as if there were clearly defined levels of it seem rather useless to me. Members of the God Hand are described by the author as being immensely evil. The archetype of evilness. Isn't that simple enough? They're not out to do good in the world, no matter what hypotheses people might have about them.

If something good can come out of his 'dream', then I beg to differ. That doesn't mean Griffith isn't a villain and a manipulative wolf in sheep's clothing, but 100% guaranteed evil in a tin? Hmmm...

Griffith is evil. You're fooling yourself if you think the long-term goal of his rise to power isn't some evil scheme.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2009, 09:35:26 PM »
I understand the point. I agree that apostles are not 100% evil, not all of the at least, I shouldn't have been so adamant about trying to say that (too much much apostle love in this thread :troll:)

I guess maybe I don't want to sympathize with them as much. You have to assume that apostles we didn't see the backstory for also have some tragic human lives (how come no fanfic for that btw? dare I :guts:) and that one could even feel sorry for a monster like Wyald, if we were shown his story.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2009, 09:42:11 PM »
You have to assume that apostles we didn't see the backstory for also have some tragic human lives (how come no fanfic for that btw? dare I :guts:) and that one could even feel sorry for a monster like Wyald, if we were shown his story.

Not necessarily. Many apostles might have very well been straight-up assholes in their former lives. Keep in mind those whose tragic backstories we're shown are typically the most interesting and peculiar ones.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2009, 10:39:09 AM »
Yes we are. Thread title is: "Did you feel for any of the apostles?" I don't know why you started talking about the people of Midland in the first place since what they think doesn't matter in the least here.

Because someone said the Apostles are 100% evil, including Griffith/Femto. Tangents happen.

Not necessarily. I have the feeling you haven't been reading my posts in this thread very carefully. Members of the God Hand and apostles are very different beings. But since you ask, you should know that Femto tells the Count in volume 3 that his soul is "limitlessly close to evil". Which in Japanese is a way to say that he's 99.9% evil (and it pains me to have to put it in those terms just so that people can understand it).

You said Griffith is pure evil as consequence of being a God Hand AND force of the IoE. Well, surely Apostles are also agents of the IoE, since it controls causality?

It is, in fact, quite different.

There have been plenty of warlords and leaders who have orchestrated wars for their own ambition and greed. The events of BERSERK are a more fantastical take on that.

Griffith and the other members of the God Hand are evil, regardless of what their actions may look like at a particular point. They themselves willingly acknowledge this fact in the manga. And frankly, those attempts to classify evilness as if there were clearly defined levels of it seem rather useless to me. Members of the God Hand are described by the author as being immensely evil. The archetype of evilness. Isn't that simple enough? They're not out to do good in the world, no matter what hypotheses people might have about them.

Good and evil are a consequence of action. If Griffith was bad to the bone, he wouldn't be leading people to their salvation, would he? Even if this crusade is a deceptive one, it still poses a positive outcome for his subjects. 

Griffith is evil. You're fooling yourself if you think the long-term goal of his rise to power isn't some evil scheme.

Wasn't Griffith told he will either lead the 'sheep' to their salvation or bury them in darkness? Words to that effect, anyway. If he is able to bring prosperity to the Midlanders, that in itself is not evil. 

 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2009, 11:33:42 AM »
Because someone said the Apostles are 100% evil, including Griffith/Femto. Tangents happen.

There is still no relation to your assumption of what the people of Midland believe. And, again, Griffith isn't an apostle.

You said Griffith is pure evil as consequence of being a God Hand AND force of the IoE. Well, surely Apostles are also agents of the IoE, since it controls causality?

Being a member of the God Hand, yes. The Hand of God. Its members are the closest to God, its most direct agents. The only ones to have met It as far as we know. I didn't mention anything about a "force of the IoE" (and I put "pure evil" in quotation marks for a reason too). In any case, what you're saying here makes no sense at all, and it's no use trying to contort my comment to make it say something else. The Idea of Evil not only controls causality but also dwells in the heart of every human being, does that mean they are all purely evil? No. There is a difference of magnitude involved here that you have been consistently ignoring throughout this thread.

There have been plenty of warlords and leaders who have orchestrated wars for their own ambition and greed. The events of BERSERK are a more fantastical take on that.

It's just not comparable, sorry. The fantasy elements present in Berserk make far too big of a difference. You're not going anywhere with this. And your vague, unproven assertions are meaningless as well.

Good and evil are a consequence of action.

No, they're not. Not in Berserk, a fiction where good and evil are objective, absolute notions. When the author says the God Hand is evil, it is evil. It's not subject to personal interpretation and it's not necessarily a consequence of one's own actions either. The Demon Child was born evil because it was tainted by Femto. An innocent being, yet born inherently evil. You're making the common mistake of trying to apply moral relativism to a fictional story where "evil" is a clearly identified supernatural force.

If Griffith was bad to the bone, he wouldn't be leading people to their salvation, would he? Even if this crusade is a deceptive one, it still poses a positive outcome for his subjects.

Yes, he might very well do it if it serves an ulterior purpose, a greater evil. You need to look at the bigger picture here. :schierke:

Wasn't Griffith told he will either lead the 'sheep' to their salvation or bury them in darkness? Words to that effect, anyway. If he is able to bring prosperity to the Midlanders, that in itself is not evil.

Unfortunately the sentence you're thinking of has been removed from the story (and the quote isn't accurate anyway, not to mention it's missing its very important context). It isn't in the volumes, and it isn't canon. But anyway, you're only talking of hypotheses here. "Maybe Griffith will bring prosperity and happiness to Midland, maybe he's going to be very nice." Yeah well, when all's said and done, it's probably not how it'll be. Since he's an evil overlord, you know? Maybe you want to bet on this?

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2009, 11:42:39 AM »
Hey Aazealh. Since you appear rather learned on all things BERSERK, do you mind answering a few questions?

* When you say Femto tainted the child with 'evil'? How abstract are we talking here? I thought it was because Griffith was an avatar of darkness, and therefore whatever essence he is made of simply disfigured the child?

* Do you think Griffith was jealous of Guts & Casca, or rather felt betrayed after they rescued him? I'm sure there's a part not long before the Eclipse where he watches their tete-a-tete with beady eyes. There's also the fact Femto chooses to rape Casca before her lover's eyes, instead of just y'know killing her. But I think that might have more to do with Guts, than his actual relationship with Casca.

* Why do you think Femto hesitated as SK originally carried Guts & Casca out of the 'nether world'?


Anyone else is free to chip in!  :ganishka:

Offline Dar Klink

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2009, 11:47:48 AM »
Quote
Why do you think Femto hesitated as SK originally carried Guts & Casca out of the 'nether world'?
I think that one had to do with getting an urging not to do it from The Idea of Evil, so that Casca could have her "baby" which later became a vessel for Griffith to be reborn in.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »
Hey Aazealh. Since you appear rather learned on all things BERSERK, do you mind answering a few questions?

Not at all, though your questions don't really fit this thread and have already been extensively discussed in others (which is why I won't go into details here). Don't hesitate to use the forum's search engine in the future, it can be very helpful.

* When you say Femto tainted the child with 'evil'? How abstract are we talking here? I thought it was because Griffith was an avatar of darkness, and therefore whatever essence he is made of simply disfigured the child?

It's just like SK tells Guts in volume 14. Casca was pregnant with Guts' child, and when Femto raped her the unborn child was corrupted (which we assume is a result of Femto's inherent evil nature). It wasn't just disfigured but became evil to some extent and took on some of the characteristics of basic specters in the process (e.g. appearing at night and disappearing during the day).

* Do you think Griffith was jealous of Guts & Casca, or rather felt betrayed after they rescued him? I'm sure there's a part not long before the Eclipse where he watches their tete-a-tete with beady eyes. There's also the fact Femto chooses to rape Casca before her lover's eyes, instead of just y'know killing her. But I think that might have more to do with Guts, than his actual relationship with Casca.

When it comes to his reasons for doing it, I believe it's a bit of everything. He certainly didn't feel too good about Guts & Casca being in love with each other (and his state of mind after his fall from grace and the subsequent year of torture didn't help). Personally I think Femto raped Casca mainly to hurt Guts. He used her as a tool (like he almost always did, sadly), and of course in the process he hurt her terribly as well, but it's pretty clear from the scene that he's trying to torture Guts (glaring at him the whole time and all that).

* Why do you think Femto hesitated as SK originally carried Guts & Casca out of the 'nether world'?

There could be many reasons. My personal take on the matter is that he noticed Guts was being carried away (he was lost in the contemplation of his hand right before), and that in the second it took for him to integrate that information, the Skull Knight was gone. People often underestimate the speed at which SK's steed can move.

I think that one had to do with getting an urging not to do it from The Idea of Evil, so that Casca could have her "baby" which later became a vessel for Griffith to be reborn in.

That's not really how it works as far as we know. No doubt their escape was taken into account by causality, but it's a lot more subtle than the Idea of Evil directly telling him to hold his fire.

Offline Dar Klink

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2009, 12:26:32 PM »
That's not really how it works as far as we know. No doubt their escape was taken into account by causality, but it's a lot more subtle than the Idea of Evil directly telling him to hold his fire.
Well, I didn't exactly mean that I think  :idea: whispered in his ear or anything like that, I thought of it more as Femto getting a feeling like he should hesitate. Your explanation that Femto noticing Guts was being carried away causing just barely enough of a distraction for Skull Knight to escape makes more sense though, and goes outside of my "Idea wanted it to happen so it did." For some reason when I look at that scene I picture everything happening kinda slowly at that point, when in reality the amount of time Skully is there is probably only about 20 seconds or less.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2009, 12:36:16 PM »
Well, I didn't exactly mean that I think  :idea: whispered in his ear or anything like that, I thought of it more as Femto getting a feeling like he should hesitate.

I know what you meant, but I think it's still way too direct an intervention compared to what we know of the Idea of Evil's ways (and Miura's choice of keeping it almost completely under the radar). Especially since something less direct would have had exactly the same result. Basically, his desires and reactions were planned for, but not artificially imposed on him.

For some reason when I look at that scene I picture everything happening kinda slowly at that point, when in reality the amount of time Skully is there is probably only about 20 seconds or less.

Yeah, it all happened pretty quickly.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2009, 01:55:46 PM »

Good and evil are a consequence of action. If Griffith was bad to the bone, he wouldn't be leading people to their salvation, would he? Even if this crusade is a deceptive one, it still poses a positive outcome for his subjects. 


That's like saying Satan was trying to temp Jesus because he was trying to "help him" in a manner that would truly benefit Jesus, not one in which he would be tricked.

The people of Midland are being setup for the fall because they put their complete trust in Griffith. Any "positive" outcome is an illusion that will be shattered eventually. Ignorance isn't bliss if the world as you know it is going to be turned upside down.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men