Author Topic: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil  (Read 10101 times)

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Offline Jerk

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The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« on: September 21, 2009, 07:26:42 AM »
Something has bothered me about the lost episode (taking place after the 'god of the abyss' episode), and the Idea of Evil.  Since the lost episode was removed from the Manga, it has been suggested, and very possibly so, that it isn't canon to the story.  With that said, is it possible The Idea of Evil, as it was shown in the lost episode, is no longer a character/factor in Berserk? Can we expect to see a different interpretation of God and the spiritual structure of the berserk world in the future? Could be expect to see The Idea of Evil introduced (or retroduced for those who read the lost episode) as it was?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 07:37:56 AM by Zerk »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 07:46:10 AM »
Since the lost episode was removed from the Manga, it has been suggested, and very possibly so, that it isn't canon to the story.

You've got it backwards. It was removed from the story and so it isn't canon. But we refer to it anyway for lack of another source. However all speculation based on what's in it should be very carefully formulated and thought out.

With that said, is it possible The Idea of Evil, as it was shown in the lost episode, is no longer a character/factor in Berserk? Can we expect to see a different interpretation of God and the spiritual structure of the berserk world in the future? Could be expect to see The Idea of Evil introduced (or retroduced for those who read the lost episode) as it was?

The Idea of Evil is introduced in episode 82. It is also alluded to a few times through the story, albeit very subtly. For all intents and purposes, a lot of the key elements in episode 83 (what is referred to as the "lost episode") are unaffected, because they're present elsewhere in the manga. The parts that are up in the air are the reason the Idea of Evil was born, its purpose, the process through which Griffith was engineered, and what it tells Griffith to do.

Offline Jerk

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 07:55:09 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up.  I thought that the concept of :idea: is spectacular and would hate to see it go.  I still wonder how it will be officially introduced to the plot, or if it will be introduced at all.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 07:56:55 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up.  I thought that the concept of :idea: is spectacular and would hate to see it go.  I still wonder how it will be officially introduced to the plot, or if it will be introduced at all.

Well, like I said, it was already introduced, we just didn't get acquainted with it. :slan:


Offline Jerk

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 08:03:12 AM »
Oh! Thanks for clearing that up AGAIN.  I haven't read that part of the manga in so long, but now my worries are cleared. Well in that case, I wonder how we, the reader, will get acquainted with it.  It will be very interesting to see  :idea: emerge more prohibitively into the story.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 08:46:37 AM »
Well in that case, I wonder how we, the reader, will get acquainted with it.  It will be very interesting to see  :idea: emerge more prohibitively into the story.

That's the thing though, from what Miura said in his reply to our letter, he himself is not sure whether the Idea of Evil will appear again like it did in episode 83. It might remain forever in the background, pulling the strings from behind the curtain.

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 01:50:05 PM »
I was actually very sad to see this chapter go.

The first time I was reading through, I actually found that chapter to read it where it was originally intended. Miura said he removed it because it gave away too much of the story too fast, but I actually GOT the story full force right there. I had figured where it was going already, but it just struck me right there. And now whenever I think about its story, I always allude back to it in my mind.

I kind of wish I could just print it out and stick it between the pages of my volume 13... but that would just be a mess.

Offline Walter

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 03:36:29 PM »
I was actually very sad to see this EPISODE go.

The first time I was reading through, I actually found that EPISODE to read it where it was originally intended. Miura said he removed it because it gave away too much of the story too fast, but I actually GOT the story full force right there. I had figured where it was going already, but it just struck me right there. And now whenever I think about its story, I always allude back to it in my mind.

I kind of wish I could just print it out and stick it between the pages of my volume 13... but that would just be a mess.
For your edification, the individual episodes aren't called chapters. They're episodes. Chapters are larger portions of the story. For example: Millennium Falcon > Chapter of Falconia > Episode 287: Futile. If the individual releases were called Chapters, it would go like this: Millennium Falcon > Chapter of Falconia > Chapter 287: Futile. And as you can see, that doesn't make any sense.

Also, you shouldn't brag about reading Berserk through scans first. It's not exactly praiseworthy.
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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 07:01:04 PM »
For your edification, the individual episodes aren't called chapters. They're episodes. Chapters are larger portions of the story. For example: Millennium Falcon > Chapter of Falconia > Episode 287: Futile. If the individual releases were called Chapters, it would go like this: Millennium Falcon > Chapter of Falconia > Chapter 287: Futile. And as you can see, that doesn't make any sense.

Also, you shouldn't brag about reading Berserk through scans first. It's not exactly praiseworthy.

Why do you of all people keep putting words in my mouth? You're the only one who thought I was bragging.

I don't buy manga series before I read them first; it's just a huge gamble. And since I can't afford all 35 at this time, I do read online; that doesn't mean I'm never going to buy them. I intend to, but all I have 1-16 at the moment. There's no hurry either, since it's not even done.

And sorry, I don't know which episode is which. Even in the official volumes, they don't have "chapter 35" or whatever. Whenever a new arc starts, it starts over from "chapter 1" (yes, it says that in the actual books). And I'm not that obsessed to count and memorize what everything is. Sorry, but that's not something I really care too much about. Talk about making a big deal over nothing at all; who cares what I call it? Chapters or episode, guess what? It's the same thing and you know what I'm talking about too.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 07:15:45 PM by C_W »

Offline Oburi

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 09:08:20 PM »

And sorry, I don't know which episode is which. Even in the official volumes, they don't have "chapter 35" or whatever. Whenever a new arc starts, it starts over from "chapter 1" (yes, it says that in the actual books). And I'm not that obsessed to count and memorize what everything is. Sorry, but that's not something I really care too much about. Talk about making a big deal over nothing at all; who cares what I call it? Chapters or episode, guess what? It's the same thing and you know what I'm talking about too.

You are going to run into a lot of trouble if you don't at least make an effort to use the correct terminology when discussing the manga. Nobody will know what your talking about if you ignore corrections and just do things your own way. I found your post confusing until I realized you were new and probably didn't know any better. But now you do, so don't be ignorant.  :puck:


And yes, I also have considered putting the lost episode back in it's proper place in my manga books.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:39:41 PM by Oburi »

Offline Walter

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 04:34:06 AM »
Why do you of all people keep putting words in my mouth? You're the only one who thought I was bragging.
To paraphrase, the way I took what you were saying was: I got to experience it the RIGHT way the FIRST time, through scans.

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I don't buy manga series before I read them first; it's just a huge gamble. And since I can't afford all 35 at this time, I do read online; that doesn't mean I'm never going to buy them. I intend to, but all I have 1-16 at the moment. There's no hurry either, since it's not even done.
At SKnet, we like to be respectful to the creator of Berserk and support him. The best way to do this is buying his series.

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And sorry, I don't know which episode is which. Even in the official volumes, they don't have "chapter 35" or whatever. Whenever a new arc starts, it starts over from "chapter 1" (yes, it says that in the actual books). And I'm not that obsessed to count and memorize what everything is. Sorry, but that's not something I really care too much about. Talk about making a big deal over nothing at all; who cares what I call it? Chapters or episode, guess what? It's the same thing and you know what I'm talking about too.
I don't know what "actual books" you're referring to where each arc starts with "Chapter 1." Even Dark Horse shows the arc name and chapter name before listing the episodes in the table of contents. The episode numbers are omitted from the collected volumes, but they're listed in the serialization in Young Animal.

As for why you should care? There is a proper categorization system to the series that goes beyond merely the volume numbers. It's a part of the title of each and every episode. It's divided by story arcs, and major events. Miura created it himself, and he's stuck to it every single episode since 1992, so he must think it's pretty important. But since you seem convinced I'm trying to pull one over on you, I'll undertake extra effort to explain the point:



See the portion I've outlined in red? It goes like this: 第307話 · 千年帝国の鷹篇/ファルコニアの章/ファルコニア ... Which translates to Episode #307 -- Millennium Falcon Arc / Chapter of Falconia / Falconia.

Now let me show you why: The 307 is preceded with which means "number" and then designated with a which translates to "counter for stories, episodes of TV series, etc." And Falconia is designated with a which translates to "chapter".

I'll repeat: 話 does not equal 章. These are two distinct words, with distinct meanings. One is episode, one is chapter. The reason they are kept separate is because they refer to categorizations of the story. Arc / Chapter / Episode. It's a system that spans multiple volumes. If you want a full breakdown of where the arcs and chapters are, check here: http://skullknight.net/manga/
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline OmegaSeamaster

Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 07:14:53 PM »
Question - as Griffith morphs into Femto during the eclipse, he visits the abyss and senses the presence of the Idea of Evil. He notices Beherits floating upwards, and they are referred to as "splashes of ideas."

Is the correct intepretation of this that, as the Idea of Evil weaves its web of causality, the Beherits float up and out to the actual world as the mechanisms to carry it out? Not sure about Dark Horse's translation in this area, but the wording is a bit abstract.

Offline Walter

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 08:14:16 PM »
Question - as Griffith morphs into Femto during the eclipse, he visits the abyss and senses the presence of the Idea of Evil. He notices Beherits floating upwards, and they are referred to as "splashes of ideas."
Here's the translation Olivier Hague and Ranemaka13 came up with back in 2002:

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Voice: That splash [Alt. "That spray"]
A drop of desire falls overflowing this sea in the distance.
This drop is an invitation to a different world.
These translations are generally more reliable than Dark Horse when it comes down to details like this. Now, I can't translate all the kanji on that page by myself, because it's relatively advanced stuff. But from what I can gather, the Idea of Evil calls it the spray of 念. The key part here is 念, but that translates to a number of different notions -  wish; sense; idea; thought; feeling; desire, etc.

If someone with more translation experience wants to step up to the plate here, I'd be grateful.

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Is the correct intepretation of this that, as the Idea of Evil weaves its web of causality, the Beherits float up and out to the actual world as the mechanisms to carry it out? Not sure about Dark Horse's translation in this area, but the wording is a bit abstract.
There's no getting around the fact that it's abstract. It's a god talking to a human soul about the inner workings of the universe. You aren't going to get any solid answers here, just inklings.

Griffith's crystallized tear splashed into the Abyss of the world and created a spray of Beherit-shaped things that were then sent into the world above. I've always though of this as the birth of Beherits. But it could always be something less direct than that.

As for its means of control, the Idea of Evil has much more subtle and powerful means for shaping the hearts of men than Beherits.  It has a foothold on the dark side of the human subconscious mind, for one. "The darkness that dwells in every human heart." But it also mentions "merging blood with blood" to create the appropriate lineage for Griffith.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline OmegaSeamaster

Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 08:56:33 PM »
These translations are generally more reliable than Dark Horse when it comes down to details like this.

I agree, when it comes to passages where "deep thoughts" or philosophical or metaphysical concepts are described, Dark Horse tends to struggle with the translations.

Now, I can't translate all the kanji on that page by myself, because it's relatively advanced stuff. But from what I can gather, the Idea of Evil calls it the spray of 念. The key part here is 念, but that translates to a number of different notions -  wish; sense; idea; thought; feeling; desire, etc. If someone with more translation experience wants to step up to the plate here, I'd be grateful.

I could ask my wife. She's Chinese but she also speaks Japanese, but she'd have to see the characters around the 念 to take a shot at it. I sadly only have the Dark Horse volumes at the moment.

Griffith's crystallized tear splashed into the Abyss of the world and created a spray of Beherit-shaped things that were then sent into the world above. I've always though of this as the birth of Beherits. But it could always be something less direct than that.

Ahh, ok. Got it. I think my confusion stemmed from the fact that I thought the concentric circles represented the swirling vortex, with the Idea of Evil at its center. Now that you mention it's actually the ripples from Griffith's teardrop, it makes more sense - with the tear forming the Beherits. Don't ask me how I got the idea of Beherits rising like balloons out of the vortex.... 

As for its means of control, the Idea of Evil has much more subtle and powerful means for shaping the hearts of men than Beherits.  It has a foothold on the dark side of the human subconscious mind, for one. "The darkness that dwells in every human heart." But it also mentions "merging blood with blood" to create the appropriate lineage for Griffith.

I see, that explains the reference to "the god created of man." If mankind is the source of the Idea, by itself needing an external reason or cause of suffering, which in turn results in the Idea manipulating human events leading to its own suffering....it's almost like a big loop...the "flow of causality" Void is referring to. Good stuff.

Offline Walter

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 09:56:30 PM »
I could ask my wife. She's Chinese but she also speaks Japanese, but she'd have to see the characters around the 念 to take a shot at it.
It's pretty simple phraseology. 念の雫. In this case, context isn't important beyond: X of X.

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I see, that explains the reference to "the god created of man."
I didn't think that needed explaining?

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..it's almost like a big loop...the "flow of causality" Void is referring to. Good stuff.
That's a misunderstanding of what Void says. "Everything is bound by the flow of Causality" means that all actions serve a purpose towards a greater goal. Everything is within the calculation. It doesn't mean humans are chained to a giant cycle. Flora and SK have discussed it being more of a spiral, and less a perfect circle, in the past. But that's not what Void means with this statement.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: The lost episode and the Idea of Evil
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2011, 05:35:41 AM »
I agree, when it comes to passages where "deep thoughts" or philosophical or metaphysical concepts are described, Dark Horse tends to struggle with the translations.

They always struggle with the translations.

I could ask my wife. She's Chinese but she also speaks Japanese, but she'd have to see the characters around the 念 to take a shot at it. I sadly only have the Dark Horse volumes at the moment.

I think the translation Walter gave you is about as good as it gets.

Now that you mention it's actually the ripples from Griffith's teardrop, it makes more sense - with the tear forming the Beherits. Don't ask me how I got the idea of Beherits rising like balloons out of the vortex....

They're rising like droplets of a liquid (Miura often equates the "World of Ideas" and everything associated to it to an ocean) falling upward (rising to the "surface"). It's an important scene.