Author Topic: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes  (Read 12859 times)

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Offline Konketsuji

Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« on: October 16, 2009, 09:10:39 PM »
I've never noticed this before. But Miura is correcting some pages before the volume release. Here's some example: scans from Volume 32 and YA.


Maybe someone has other examples. Sorry if was already discussed.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 09:23:12 PM »
I've never noticed this before. But Miura is correcting some pages before the volume release. Here's some example: scans from Volume 32 and YA.

Yeah, it's nothing new. He also adds or removes pages sometimes. The most famous example is the case of episode 83, which was prepublished but not included in volume 13 (and therefore was excluded from the story). Those changes have been discussed many times in the past, but not in one specific thread.

Offline Konketsuji

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 09:36:30 PM »
He also adds or removes pages sometimes.
Didn't know that. One more reason to buy DH releases. Maybe you can share some extra pages? :carcus:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 09:47:45 PM »
Didn't know that. One more reason to buy DH releases. Maybe you can share some extra pages? :carcus:

Well for example, the first page of episode 167 was removed (volume 21), a page was added at the end of volume 26 (episode 225) to show Guts' friends putting the armor on him, another page was added at the beginning of volume 28 (episode 238) to show Guts noticing Zodd on the cliff, and so on. I'm not even going to list the changes to the artwork here because it'd take forever. However you're welcome to try to compile a list yourself. :void:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 10:15:18 PM »
Yea it would really be something if someone made a thread going through each book and showed the differences between the YA versions and the volumes. I hate the fact that I missing out on some of Miura's artwork, even if it's just a different angle or some small added detail, it's still Miura!

Quote
another page was added at the beginning of volume 28 (episode 238) to show Guts noticing Zodd on the cliff

You say that with such certainty  :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 08:27:30 AM »
Yea it would really be something if someone made a thread going through each book and showed the differences between the YA versions and the volumes.

Maybe I'll make one someday...

You say that with such certainty  :guts:

Well it certainly is Zodd on that cliff. No doubt about it, and the added page makes it even more obvious. What isn't sure is what he was doing there and what it entails.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 05:36:58 PM »
While I am an avid follower of your theory Aaz, I don't beleive that we can say without a doubt that it was in fact Zodd on the hill.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2009, 05:42:16 PM »
While I am an avid follower of your theory Aaz, I don't beleive that we can say without a doubt that it was in fact Zodd on the hill.

Then you're wrong. Without a doubt. It's not a "theory" that Zodd was on that cliff, it's a fact. You must not be all that avid if you don't realize it.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2009, 11:48:13 PM »
I can't tell if you are doing a Parody of some of the more infamous posters on this board or if you are seriously defending this "fact".

When all we see is a partial silhouette peeking over the top of another silhouette of the mountain, I will stand by my point that we don't know anything for sure about what that panel depicts other than a hill.

I agree that our knowledge of the addition of that page can make it easier to lean towards the side of believing something is up there. But how can we claim that to be a fact of who or what it actually is. If it were a "fact" I would think that such a fact would be easily identifiable to any reader, not just those with privileged knowledge that this specific page, was later added to the manga after the original young animal release. But in it is my opinion that most people who read through volume 28 the first time won't think twice about that panel.

Until Miura supports it with further information or details, it will always remain to me as a rather interesting theory that is easy to get excited about.

Offline Bekul

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 12:07:27 AM »
Um...

Miura supported it with an image of Zodd, on the cliff.

That he made /more obvious/ with the second page.

Maybe you just haven't seen it in awhile? It's kinda hard to miss.

Offline Walter

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 03:25:46 AM »
Guts feels a sensation in his brand. Then he turns toward the cliffs,where later we see a silhouette of something reminiscent of Zodd's horn. It's about 99.9% sure that it's Zodd.  :femto:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 05:14:20 AM »
My experience has been that the three peoplde I have talked to about it since I first readthe original post on the additional page in volume 28 is that not one of them had made the connection, and I know I never did. If it is more obvious than that, and my sampling of data is not typical, then perhaps it is 99.9% likely.

Anyway's now I realize that people consider it to be more than just a theory. I did not realize this before hand, or I did and forgot.

Somewhat back on topic:

Would anyone be willing to mention what the first page from volume 21 was of that has been removed? I am very curious now. I did not know about this.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 07:50:22 AM by Jaze1618 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 08:21:39 AM »
I can't tell if you are doing a Parody of some of the more infamous posters on this board or if you are seriously defending this "fact".

I'm telling you it's a fact.

When all we see is a partial silhouette peeking over the top of another silhouette of the mountain, I will stand by my point that we don't know anything for sure about what that panel depicts other than a hill.

A partial silhouette... of Zodd. Duh. :schierke:

Maybe before you stand by your "point" (which is incredibly dumb, sorry to say), you ought to learn the difference between a mountain, a hill and a cliff.

But how can we claim that to be a fact of who or what it actually is.

 

Because it's clearly Zodd's silhouette.

There's only one horn shaped like this in Berserk. Then there's the profile of the head that perfectly corresponds, and finally the neck/shoulders and the tip of the wing. It's definitely Zodd.

If it were a "fact" I would think that such a fact would be easily identifiable to any reader

Well it is, or at least to any reader with decent eyesight and the ability to pay attention to things.

not just those with privileged knowledge that this specific page, was later added to the manga after the original young animal release.

It's not limited to those with privileged knowledge of anything... You don't need to know a page was added to see that it's Zodd up there, and even if no page had been added, it'd still clearly be Zodd.


The added page just makes it impossible to miss that someone was there, someone Guts could sense through the brand.


Note: The sound effect in this panel kind of emphasizes this mysterious appearance.

Oh but who could this possibly be? :schierke:

But in it is my opinion that most people who read through volume 28 the first time won't think twice about that panel.

That's because they don't pay any attention to what they're reading. Do you want me to give you a list of all the things "most people" don't think twice about? Because it's very long, and not very flattering.

Until Miura supports it with further information or details, it will always remain to me as a rather interesting theory that is easy to get excited about.

There is no need to support it with "further information". Miura drew Zodd's silhouette on top of a cliff. Then he added a page before it, showing Guts noticing him. That's all you need.

My experience has been that the three peoplde I have talked to about it since I first readthe original post on the additional page in volume 28 is that not one of them had made the connection, and I know I never did. If it is more obvious than that, and my sampling of data is not typical, then perhaps it is 99.9% likely.

I don't mean to offend, but from your posting history, there are many things you have not noticed. And even if you asked 10,000 people and they all said they didn't notice it, all it would prove is that 10,000 people are inattentive. It's completely irrelevant (unless you say there is nothing there to notice, in which case you're factually wrong). In any case it's not 99.9% likely but 100% sure.

Anyway's now I realize that people consider it to be more than just a theory.

The part that is speculation is the reason Zodd might have had to be there and how it ties to the boy. The fact Zodd was there is not and has never been a theory. An "avid follower" indeed. :schierke:

Would anyone be willing to mention what the first page from volume 21 was of that has been removed? I am very curious now. I did not know about this.

Yeah there are obviously many things you don't know about, I think we've been shown that.

It's a page showing Guts' fall from the tower in several panels. He sees the beherit-apostle on the side, then Mozgus down below (all the while having an internal monologue). On the next page he hits Mozgus with the DS. It wasn't a big loss.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2009, 04:40:03 PM »
I didn't notice it on my first read through the volume, but that still doesn't mean it's not Zodd on the cliff. It just means I didn't notice it at first. The added page simply forces the reader to look a bit more closely at what's on the cliff. Miura added it to make sure everyone saw that Zodd was up there. Like Aaz said, it's not speculation; the speculation is what he was doing up on that cliff and what it has to do with the Moonlight Boy.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 05:18:52 PM »
To be fair, a fact doesn't necessarily mean something is real or unreal.  For example, way back in the day everyone thought the earth was flat.  To say "the earth is flat" would've been a fact.  Of course, we know this is not true therefore it is no longer a fact.  But it was when the world was considered flat.  What a lot of people don't know is that words like "truth" and "fact" are very fluid.  One day something could be as factual as saying the sun is hot, and the next day, with new objective evidence brought to the table, we could say it's not a fact.  So, in that sense, given the evidence provided, it certainly can be considered a fact to say that it is Zodd on the grassy knoll until proven otherwise.

To take it in another direction, if one were to provide a real life picture of the same image, we probably wouldn't be so certain in saying it's Zodd or whatever real world equivalent.  It'd certainly be too ambiguous to say it is a fact.  But, unlike the real life image, every single part of an image in Berserk has a purpose (or, rather, was put there intentionally).  Miura created that picture for the specific purpose of showing the silhouette of a creature on the hill. The silhouette is in Zodd's shape, and Miura establishes to the reader that there is the presence of someone on the hill. He wants us to know it's Zodd.  He intentionally made the silhouette in the shape of Zodd, and directed us to his presence, for the purpose of making the reader believe Zodd is there.  Could it be someone or something else?  Sure, Miura could be trying to misdirect us (making us think it's Zodd and then showing us it wasn't).  But until further evidence comes out to change our belief that it's someone or something else, it's a fact that he was there.

But that's just my opinion.  :serpico:

Offline Walter

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 05:34:07 PM »
Sure, it's _just_ a silhouette, but whose silhouette would it be other than Zodd? The wing and horn are very distinctive for him, and since they're BOTH shown, I think it makes it pretty damned sure what's up on that cliff. The question of course is why? Adding more fuel to the fire, Miura added the preceding page to draw attention to that distinctive silhouette. He's really hitting us over the head with the cameo, if you take everything into consideration.
 
As for not realizing it the first time, keep in mind a lot of the older readers here, myself included, read that episode (238) as it was serialized in Young Animal. And even though I will read through newer volumes as they come out, I often don't look at them with as much of a critical eye as when I first read them. Afterall, it's 95% of the time just established material. But as proven time and time again, we should always pay attention when reading Berserk. And if we miss something, we have only ourselves to blame.

Also, regarding the removal of that page from the bound version of vol 21, I need to scan it. I have the original YA, but it's tucked away in an attic at my parents' house. I have an unreliable translation (from back in 2000) for it, and I believe it's Guts thinking to himself about Griffith. It's kind of interesting, but I'd really like to get the translation checked before I conclude that it's anything more than a novelty.

Props to Cronus for making the effort back in Aug. 2000, but keep in mind, this was the same era of translation that spawned text such as "GET IN MAH BELLAH" for volume 14. We just didn't take it as seriously back then, and so what we have of this missing page reads ... somewhat curiously.

Quote from: Episode 167 missing page
Guts (thinking):
Your unseen true form,
all of it is wrapped together in something tremendous.
I don't know about this causality [trans. says "karma," but we know better now] or whatever...
but I'm breaking free from all your tricks.
Could I stand believing your crap?!
Could I really stand being bound to you?!
I WILL KILL YOU!!!
That final speech bubble is as Mozgus appears in front of Guts, a split-second before Guts impales him, beginning their duel. The whole thing is kind of a curiosity, since this page actually jumps back in time a few seconds (the previous ep ended with Guts stabbing him already). And I personally think Miura removed it because it's a little strange for Guts to be ruminating while he stabs Mozgus. In the previous ep, he'd changed a lot of the text around, as if he wasn't sure at the time how to present the text. It's a much more streamlined read in the bound edition, thankfully. And I think that can be said for most of the additions/removals for the volume editions.


I don't want to speak for Aazealh, but I can somewhat understand the awkwardness of reporting ALL the changes Miura has made, since a lot of them are editorial decisions, probably regarded as errors or mistakes during the serialized versions. It's like focusing in on all the missteps. Buuuuut, taking an academic approach, I can also see the importance of understanding why the changes were made.

Anyway, since this whole thread is about these artwork changes, one of the most significant (imo) removals was in volume 12, during the scene where Guts is running to a suicidal Griffith prior to the eclipse beginning. In the volume, Griffith doesn't finish his sentence "If you bear me up on your shoulder, I'll never again be able to ... " But in the serialized version, he says:  "I'll never be able to forgive you again."  Perhaps Miura felt it was better left nonspecific, but I think it's pretty telling. That was a key moment in the development of Griffith's character. Source for that scene is Olivier back in 2001 (click)
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 11:54:33 PM »
Thank you Walter, Imperator Perpetuo , Rhombaad, and even Aazealh for your comments and explanations.

Imperator Perpetuo I feel like you hit what I was arguing right on the head.
If you guys are comfortable with referring to Zodd being on the cliff in that panel as fact. I will not question it again without the addition of new information.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 12:14:10 AM »

Note: The sound effect in this panel kind of emphasizes this mysterious appearance.

Heh, now I look at your sig and read it as dun-dun-DUNNNN....    :ganishka:  
Do you know if there is a corresponding real sound in anime for that sound effect?  

I really, REALLY like that Miura went back to fix the rigging.  That is so very nerdy.  I heartily approve.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 08:45:55 AM »
Heh, now I look at your sig and read it as dun-dun-DUNNNN....    :ganishka:

As you should! :badbone:

Do you know if there is a corresponding real sound in anime for that sound effect?

I don't think it can be transposed to a real sound. Or at least, that it has an "official" equivalent. Who knows though, I'm not an expert in the field of sound effects. :void:



And just to be on topic, Miura changed the time spent from "7 days" to "almost a month" in episode 236. He also changed the name of the character Raban and Silat meet in episode 294, from "Jaris" to "Jarif". And he changed Mule's family name in episode 195. And redrew Guts' face in episode 249 after he punches a drunkard. Et cetera.

Offline yota821

Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 11:17:30 PM »
Just a note on the sound effects, to me they are just the background noise of the ocean waves washing up against the seashore.  "Za-zaaaa" or "Za---nn..." is a rough way of translating the onomatopoeia. This same sound effect occurs when Schierke goes crying into Guts' bosom (vol. 28 as well).  Yet there's no indication "mysterious appearance" that happens here, it just drowns Schierke crying out. It's mostly there for dramatic effect (like the aforementioned scene), or as a pause in between scenes (like in Aaz's signature).   

I remember reading that panel on my own copy, and I never caught it until Aaz pointed it out.  Neither the sound effect nor the panels leading up to it alerted me to Zodd's presence there (and I have only myself to blame for that).   :schnoz:
To me it just seemed like one of those throwaway panels that Miura put in just to transition to the next scene.
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 04:24:26 AM »
I also interpreted the sound effect as ocean noise, but I'm no expert on this stuff either. :void:

Online Gobolatula

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 05:51:47 AM »
May I humbly request the original page from volume 12 when Guts is about to put his hand on insane, crippled Griffith's shoulder. I'd just like to see how it was at first, if it is alright.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 06:08:58 AM »
The page is exactly the same, it's just the text, and I believe Aaz or Walter already posted the difference between texts. If you really want to see what it looked like originally, just edit the text yourself  :guts:

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 06:26:44 AM »
The page is exactly the same, it's just the text, and I believe Aaz or Walter already posted the difference between texts. If you really want to see what it looked like originally, just edit the text yourself  :guts:
Well, my nerdly obsession would like to see the original page with Japanese text. That is, if this is all right with the admins (and if it's an easy find).

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Changes to the artwork from the prepublication to the volumes
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 02:09:19 PM »
Just a note on the sound effects, to me they are just the background noise of the ocean waves washing up against the seashore.  "Za-zaaaa" or "Za---nn..." is a rough way of translating the onomatopoeia. This same sound effect occurs when Schierke goes crying into Guts' bosom (vol. 28 as well).  Yet there's no indication "mysterious appearance" that happens here, it just drowns Schierke crying out.

That's not really a translation, just a transliteration of the sound into the Latin alphabet. Anyway, you are correct to point out that the sound effect "zaa zaa" is used for rain dropping or waves crashing (or static on a TV...). However I think it would be a mistake to assume that onomatopoeiae are an exact science. From what I've seen, sounds like "Zaaaa" can be used to denote a certain "atmosphere" or make something more dramatic. For example it can be found in episode 051 (volume 10) when Rickert is looking at the deserted camp of the Band of the Falcon:


No waves crashing in the middle of the forest. It's also used when Sonia and Irvine have a talk in episode 258 (and while there is a small stream next to them, it couldn't possibly be anything like the ocean). Even in the scene where we first see Casca and the Moonlight Boy together, the way the panel is set makes it hard to believe the purpose of the sound effect is just to emphasize that they are near the ocean, especially since they have the typical "eerie glow" around them instead of the real background. And there are more examples.

It's mostly there for dramatic effect (like the aforementioned scene), or as a pause in between scenes (like in Aaz's signature).

For dramatic effect, definitely. I'd say it's the whole point. As a mere "pause" in-between scenes though? I don't think so.

Well, my nerdly obsession would like to see the original page with Japanese text. That is, if this is all right with the admins (and if it's an easy find).

I don't remember if I still have a picture of the original somewhere. I think it might have been lost in a HDD crash some years ago. And unfortunately, I do not currently own that particular issue of Young Animal. Sorry!