Casca killing Griffith...?

While thinking about how Berserk's three main characters have all been the victims of abnormal and unhealthy sexual encounters in their youth, it occurred to me that all three would also have revenge and find empowerment over their perpetrators.


Revenge and empowerment are obviously major themes of Berserk, and these examples show a consistent sexual sub-cycle of those themes with the main characters. This got me thinking, what if Guts is not the one destined to get revenge against Griffith, as one would assume, but Casca is?


What say you, SK.net? Vote, and share your thoughts, feelings, and scenarios for and against the idea of Casca killing Griffith.

I chose the third one. I would guess after she is sane, she might just want to forget it all and move on...who knows, bu that's just my speculation

Actually...I could see that. Griffith busy fighting with Griffith and Casca manages to actually land the killing blow. Huh.
Yeah, that's actually pretty plausible because it would be such a "WTF" moment.

Th3Branded0ne said:

I chose the third one. I would guess after she is sane, she might just want to forget it all and move on...who knows, bu that's just my speculation

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a nice sounding idea, though I'm wondering if I should have included it because it's not like she isn't going to get swept up in what's happening, so whether she wants to oppose him or not might be moot.

CCS said:

Actually...I could see that. Griffith busy fighting with Griffith and Casca manages to actually land the killing blow. Huh.
Yeah, that's actually pretty plausible because it would be such a "WTF" moment.

Click to expand...

Also, if she struck down Griffith to save Guts, it'd be the ultimate episode of The Bachelorette.

Speaking of which, that's another dramatic factor to consider in all this, it's not like all those old feelings are going to be settled once she snaps to it. There seems like a natural order to things now, and they may remain that way, but when we last left this triangle before the Eclipse, Casca had chosen to stay with Griffith and sent Guts packing. She obviously has strong feelings for both, and nothing about Guts' and Casca's relationship since then has been normal. Really, nothing has been settled, whether they be old feelings of affection Casca might have had for Griffith or jealousies and resentments Guts harbored (if anything, that would obviously be intensified), and it could still all be in play when she comes to herself.

Hopefully, she'll just say this to Guts though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVdbuNpsryI

Griffith said:

Also, if she struck down Griffith to save Guts, it'd be the ultimate episode of The Bachelorette.

Click to expand...

Now you've got me thinking.. what if she strikes Griffith (not down) to save Guts and gets herself killed in the process? Like Metroid at the end of Super Metroid.

I can't believe this idea never occurred to me. I'd love it if Casca turns out to be the one who stops Griffith's (inevitable) reign of terror.

Th3Branded0ne said:

I chose the third one. I would guess after she is sane, she might just want to forget it all and move on...who knows, bu that's just my speculation

Click to expand...

Wait a minute, let me get this straight... You're saying that a future conversation between Casca and Griffith might go like this:

: Sure you raped me, turned my fetus into a demon and caused me to regress into childhood ... but you know what? FUHGEDABOUTID!
: I'm so glad you see it that way!

Conversely, it's also ridiculous to take the exaggerated approach of her waking up and telling Guts: "Let's kill 'im." But I think it's equally ridiculous to think she'll just want to move on after all that's happened. She's a pretty fierce woman, and the wrongs done to her altered the course of her life. There will be some reaction when she wakes.

Griffith said:

Yeah, it's a nice sounding idea, though I'm wondering if I should have included it because it's not like she isn't going to get swept up in what's happening, so whether she wants to oppose him or not might be moot.

Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. She's been an integral part in all of it, albeit indirectly. And will definitely play a role in the future, likely because of her role as mother of a "superior being" (see Ep. 243).

Walter said:

Wait a minute, let me get this straight... You're saying that a future conversation between Casca and Griffith might go like this:

: Sure you raped me, turned my fetus into a demon and caused me to regress into childhood ... but you know what? FUHGEDABOUTID!
: I'm so glad you see it that way!

Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, I think he was technically saying she wouldn't want to have that conversation at all, which wouldn't be surprising at first. That's basically what she's done since it happened, avoided it to the extreme.

Walter said:

Conversely, it's also ridiculous to take the exaggerated approach of her waking up and telling Guts: "Let's kill 'im." But I think it's equally ridiculous to think she'll just want to move on after all that's happened. She's a pretty fierce woman, and the wrongs done to her altered the course of her life. There will be some reaction when she wakes.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but who knows, just before that she was ready to spend that life changing Griffith's diapers out of duty to him. That feeling should certainly be gone now, but she could still be all over the map considering the complicated emotions involved in her relationship with Griffith, emotions even Guts, with his singular focus, has felt conflicted about at times. Someone she loved and would sacrifice her life for because she worshiped him like a God literally sacrificed her to become a God... that's unique. So, while her unique perspective in that regard could make her more understanding and forgiving of that particular act, what followed is what's truly unforgivable as far as their concerned. She idolized him because he empowered her to save herself, then he literally undid it completely. Though, while the betrayal and severity of his crimes against her, as well as the appropriate reaction, seem obvious, I keep coming back to... "What you wish for may not be what she wishes for." By that I mean, it's obvious how we feel she should feel, but again, who knows, not least of which because...

Walter said:

Yeah, pretty much. She's been an integral part in all of it, albeit indirectly. And will definitely play a role in the future, likely because of her role as mother of a "superior being" (see Ep. 243).

Click to expand...

Good segue, haven't opened that can of worms in here yet; the final straw between her and Griffith, for good or for ill?

Griffith said:

Yeah, but who knows, just before that she was ready to spend that life changing Griffith's diapers out of duty to him. That feeling should certainly be gone now, but she could still be all over the map considering the complicated emotions involved in her relationship with Griffith, emotions even Guts, with his singular focus, has felt conflicted about at times.

Click to expand...

Actually, Casca might provide the emotional clarity Guts needs in those situations. She's already a constant reminder of the evils Griffith has wrought. Having her sober in those situations, not simply crying out in confusion, might simplify things ( :"Kill 'im!")

Someone she loved and would sacrifice her life for because she worshiped him like a God literally sacrificed her to become a God...

Click to expand...

Yeah, right before he raped her.

Though, while the betrayal and severity of his crimes against her, as well as the appropriate reaction, seem obvious, I keep coming back to... "What you wish for may not be what she wishes for." By that I mean, it's obvious how we feel she should feel, but again, who knows, not least of which because...

Click to expand...

That statement could mean so many things, though. But my mind always jumps to the conflict that could present itself of their son being an integral part of Griffith -- the same problem that's reared its head in both ep 175 and ep 182. Guts' instinctual reaction might be to kill his enemy, and Casca's might be to protect her son. Of course ... neither of them realize that aspect of Griffith yet. And not to muddle things further but ... maybe after she's awakened, Casca will remember something about that encounter with Griffith on the Hill of Swords. How there was something 'familiar' about him.

With all these factors in play, again I simply find it ridiculous to assume that she WON'T play a role in the future, and would rather just ignore everything that's happened to her once she's faced with reality.

Walter said:

Actually, Casca might provide the emotional clarity Guts needs in those situations. She's already a constant reminder of the evils Griffith has wrought. Having her sober in those situations, not simply crying out in confusion, might simplify things ( :"Kill 'im!")

Click to expand...

Heh heh, yeah, I don't think anything about it is going to get simplified though. It would be awesome if she was that determined actually, whatever she thinks. My question regards this; Casca's first encounter with Griffith is what birthed that fierce woman, and what he did to her at the Eclipse destroyed her. So, when she comes back, is she going to be that strong woman again, now scorned and free of Griffith's yoke, or someone whose world, to the core of her being, has still been shattered? We don't even know what she's going to remember, of her past, the eclipse, and since then.

Walter said:

Yeah, right before he raped her.

Click to expand...

I did touch upon that paramount fact in the complete quote, thank you.

Also, again, it seems simple enough, but it might be too easy to make it that black and white with her. Objectively it is that simple, but I don't think Casca's objective, at the moment she's literally insane over it, and just because she becomes coherent doesn't mean she's going to suddenly have clarity, or even be able to deal with it rationally. Not saying she won't come to see Griffith for what he is, but that even she's going to struggle with the answer of what to do about it.

Walter said:

That statement could mean so many things, though.

Click to expand...

Yeah, on a number of subjects too. It could be referencing her sanity itself, like would Guts be forcing it on her before she's ready. Perhaps something we should revisit on it's own.

Walter said:

But my mind always jumps to the conflict that could present itself of their son being an integral part of Griffith -- the same problem that's reared its head in both ep 175 and ep 182. Guts' instinctual reaction might be to kill his enemy, and Casca's might be to protect her son. Of course ... neither of them realize that aspect of Griffith yet. And not to muddle things further but ... maybe after she's awakened, Casca will remember something about that encounter with Griffith on the Hill of Swords. How there was something 'familiar' about him.

Click to expand...

Muddle away, please! There's really no avoiding it, because even with the Hill of Swords encounter, we don't know how much of it was Griffith's, or the child's, presence she was responding to. It's likely a combination of both, though the presence of the child isn't addressed except on Griffith's end, so read dryly, she's reacting to the image of Griffith. In any case, interesting that she wasn't afraid of him, but reached out. Anyway, like everything else, it could go either way, the presence of the child could the one thing stopping her from wanting to hurt Griffith, or the one thing that makes it so she has to.

Walter said:

With all these factors in play, again I simply find it ridiculous to assume that she WON'T play a role in the future, and would rather just ignore everything that's happened to her once she's faced with reality.

Click to expand...

That's a bit of strawman though, the statement was that it's unclear she'd even want to oppose him (which would be a huge burden to undertake, regardless of how she feels about him and what he did to her), not that she'd play no role in the future.

Griffith said:

even with the Hill of Swords encounter, we don't know how much of it was Griffith's, or the child's, presence she was responding to.

Click to expand...

I'd say we do. She came running to see him from elsewhere just by the feeling she had in her brand. Same way she always felt her son when he was around. And she behaved like she's always behaved with her child but never with Griffith. Then there's the fact Casca has never remembered anyone from her past, not Guts, not Rickert, no one. It's a purely unsubstantiated assumption that she could remember Griffith.

Griffith said:

In any case, interesting that she wasn't afraid of him, but reached out.

Click to expand...

Just more evidence of the obvious: that she didn't recognize Griffith at all.

Aazealh said:

I'd say we do. She came running to see him from elsewhere just by the feeling she had in her brand. Same way she always felt her son when he was around.

Click to expand...

A great point, I was looking at their meeting out of context of what drew her out there. I don't want to propagate a misinterpretation here.

Aazealh said:

And she behaved like she always behaved with her child but never with Griffith.

Click to expand...

True, but we have no other frame of reference for how she would behave around Griffith in this state either.

Aazealh said:

Then there's the fact Casca has never remembered anyone from her past, not Guts, not Rickert, no one.

Click to expand...

Also true, and stated flatly for exposition.

Aazealh said:

It's a purely unsubstantiated assumption that she could remember Griffith.

Click to expand...

I concede that as well, but unsubstantiated assumptions are what we have to go on where the inner workings of Casca's mental faculties are concerned, whether she's totally cut off from her memories and recognition or simply doesn't perceive them normally. By that token, I don't mean she remembers him outright, just that he's such a powerful icon, that goes so far back, in her life that it wouldn't be surprising for her to have a reflexive reaction to his appearance. The fact that he's now one with her child only makes it more confusing and ambiguous, literally and figuratively. I honestly feel like it could be both ways at once, in addition to the external confusion it causes Guts.

Aazealh said:

Just more evidence of the obvious: that she didn't recognize Griffith at all.

Click to expand...

Whatever the case, I hope we eventually learn exactly what she was thinking at that moment.



Humorous update: You didn't feel as strongly about it six years ago! Only "most probable?" Gotchya!

Also, when you see who you're aligned with there, you might reconsider the facts just on principle. Hell, one might reconsider gravity under the circumstances! Don't even ask how I found that, it was just a coincidence. =)

Or is it...?

Note: Don't take this addition seriously, folks.

Griffith said:

True, but we have no other frame of reference for how she would behave around Griffith in this state either.

Click to expand...

We have the frame of reference of her not recognizing anyone except her son. That it would be different for Griffith is a stretch already (especially since he's at the very center of what she wants to forget), but then you're also saying she would remember him positively? Really?

Griffith said:

I concede that as well, but unsubstantiated assumptions are what we have to go on where the inner workings of Casca's mental faculties are concerned, whether she's totally cut off from her memories and recognition or simply doesn't perceive them normally.

Click to expand...

I don't think we have to resort to unsubstantiated assumptions here. It isn't hard to just connect the dots between the facts Miura laid out in plain sight in the manga.

Griffith said:

By that token, I don't mean she remembers him outright, just that he's such a powerful icon, that goes so far back, in her life that it wouldn't be surprising for her to have a reflexive reaction to his appearance. The fact that he's now one with her child only makes it more confusing and ambiguous, literally and figuratively. I honestly feel like it could be both ways at once, in addition to the external confusion it causes Guts.

Click to expand...

It's meant to confuse Guts and to be a powerful imagery, her going towards him like that. But other than that, I can't think of anything that could possibly lend credence to your idea of a "reflexive reaction to his appearance", one that would still be dissociated from her actually memories of him.

Griffith said:

Humorous update: You didn't feel as strongly about it six years ago! Only "most probable?" Gotchya!

Also, when you see who you're aligned with there, you might reconsider the facts just on principle. Hell, one might reconsider gravity under the circumstances! Don't even ask how I found that, it was just a coincidence. =)

Or is it...?

Click to expand...

Given how unspontaneous that last addition has been I can't say I find much humor in it. Anyhow, be reassured, I felt as strongly about this back then as I do now.

As far as we can speculate, Griffith's current body is actually made out of Caska's+Guts' baby vessel...

So my vote goes toward the fact that she will be unable to kill him, since it would also mean the death of her child as well... That whole concept is probly one of the so-many reasons why Griffith will NOT be killed by neither Guts or Caska!

That's just my opinion anyway, straight vengeance won't work with this case!

Jarome said:

As far as we can speculate, Griffith's current body is actually made out of Casca's+Guts' baby vessel...

Click to expand...

Speculation not necessary.

Now we're talkin'!

Jarome said:

As fa=)r as we can speculate, Griffith's current body is actually made out of Casca's+Guts' baby vessel...

Click to expand...

Walter said:

Speculation not necessary.

Click to expand...

Yeah, just the fact that Jarome identified the child as a "vessel" makes what we know about that pretty clear. Though, we can certainly speculate on the nature of the relationship between Griffith and his vessel, or the makeup of his being overall beyond flesh. For instance, how does he transform into Femto and back, while maintaining his armor before and after? On second thought, we probably shouldn't think about that. =)

Jarome said:

So my vote goes toward the fact that she will be unable to kill him, since it would also mean the death of her child as well... That whole concept is probly one of the so-many reasons why Griffith will NOT be killed by neither Guts or Casca!

That's just my opinion anyway, straight vengeance won't work with this case!

Click to expand...

Agreed, straight vengeance probably won't do, but that doesn't rule out Guts and Casca destroying Griffith, it would merely change their motivation. Not knowing the complete makeup of Griffith's and child's symbiosis, like whether the child would die with Griffith or if its soul can somehow be separated from his, one can't say for sure that the child makes killing Griffith prohibitive. In fact, what if it is the other way around, and Griffith/Femto is "imprisoning" or damning the child. It could actually become the central reason to wipe him out.

So, how do you guys see it unfolding, will the child somehow act as a shield for Griffith against those two, or is it the final signature on his death warrant?

I would like this to happen, just for the 'poetic justice' that you mentioned. Lately it seems as though the only female with any power is Shierke, who is also a child. Farnese has definitely taken a back seat compared to the crazy she used to be, though for the good of those around her. However, it seems to me that women are taking a back seat to everything in Berserk right now, so the thought of a woman standing up and killing Griffith is something that I, as a woman, am biased about.

Of course, there are other things that we would have to speculate about in order for this to happen: their child, why Guts would be unable to kill Griffith while Casca could. My ideal scenario would be something like this (so unrealistic, tantamount to the fact that I could think of it): Griffith overpowers Guts before Casca has been cured. She starts to get upset, because even in her present condition, she still has come to care about the people she is travelling with. She starts to recall feelings about Guts that she once had, and finally her wall breaks and she kills Griffith to save Guts. Some magical way, she destroys Griffith while not killing the vessel, and her and Gut's child is free. Idk. I am a romanticist, and I have no place in Berkerk's world

Anyway, I would love to see Casca get her revenge, whether it be a snap thing that just happens to save Guts (unlikely) or after she is cured and has time to really think about what has happened over the past couple of years. I do not want to think that in any way she would be able to forgive Griffith, whether it be just wanting to forget about everything and put it in the past or by telling Guts to stop his revenge. She should want revenge after all that has happened. And if Guts were to realize what Skull Knight told him and choose Casca over revenge, then he should be able to take care of her and her pain. But I do not see that happening, and the only ending I truly want to see is in some way, one of the people that Griffith hurt getting revenge for them all.

Perhaps the child itself?

Pez said:

I am a romanticist, and I have no place in Berkerk's world

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that. While I'd bet money that your speculation won't happen (since it requires that Casca remain in her current state till the end of the story), I think there are some relatively strong romantic aspects to Berserk. They're just counterbalanced by other parts.

Pez said:

And if Guts were to realize what Skull Knight told him and choose Casca over revenge, then he should be able to take care of her and her pain.

Click to expand...

Guts has already chosen, that's why he's going to Elfhelm. Once they get there, assuming she can be cured, the choice will reside on her side, not his.

Pez said:

I would like this to happen, just for the 'poetic justice' that you mentioned. Lately it seems as though the only female with any power is Schierke, who is also a child. Farnese has definitely taken a back seat compared to the crazy she used to be, though for the good of those around her. However, it seems to me that women are taking a back seat to everything in Berserk right now, so the thought of a woman standing up and killing Griffith is something that I, as a woman, am biased about.

Click to expand...

Yes, and considering the direction things have taken since volume 23, it wouldn't be surprising if it was a "team effort" anyway. Also, in Farnese's case, I think her learning magic is going to put her front and center at some point soon, perhaps if/when Schierke becomes overtaxed. I wouldn't teach her the fire spells, though.

Pez said:

Of course, there are other things that we would have to speculate about in order for this to happen: their child, why Guts would be unable to kill Griffith while Casca could.

Click to expand...

Those are the big question marks, though at this point it's also a question how anyone can stop Griffith. The incidents with Guts, Slan/Ganishka, and Dragon Slayer are so far our best foreshadowing, the trick is being able to touch him (where the idea of a team effort gains more credibility).

Pez said:

My ideal scenario would be something like this (so unrealistic, tantamount to the fact that I could think of it): Griffith overpowers Guts before Casca has been cured. She starts to get upset, because even in her present condition, she still has come to care about the people she is travelling with. She starts to recall feelings about Guts that she once had, and finally her wall breaks and she kills Griffith to save Guts.

Click to expand...

The Return of the Jedi ending! One of my go to scenarios (my favorite version is with Griffith in the Vader role: www.skullknight.net/griffdeath). I was imagining this one in particular, with Casca stepping up to aid a fallen Guts, when I made the thread, I just hope Falconia castle has a never ending pit to fall through .

Pez said:

Anyway, I would love to see Casca get her revenge, whether it be a snap thing that just happens to save Guts (unlikely) or after she is cured and has time to really think about what has happened over the past couple of years. I do not want to think that in any way she would be able to forgive Griffith, whether it be just wanting to forget about everything and put it in the past or by telling Guts to stop his revenge. She should want revenge after all that has happened.

Click to expand...

I think it's going to be complicated, and she's going to be conflicted for a number of reasons, probably go through phases where she's depressed, angry, etc. over what's happened to her, what Griffith has done, and her child. I just hope the big guy is patient and understanding.

Pez said:

But I do not see that happening, and the only ending I truly want to see is in some way, one of the people that Griffith hurt getting revenge for them all.

Click to expand...

One for all, or all for one.
I just got an image of the fallen Hawks helping drag Griffith's soul to Hell like Vargas did the Count, "JUDO!?"

Pez said:

Perhaps the child itself?

Click to expand...

Now there's an idea worth exploring, if nothing else, the child is likely his Achilles' heel.

Aazealh said:

Guts has already chosen, that's why he's going to Elfhelm. Once they get there, assuming she can be cured, the choice will reside on her side, not his.

Click to expand...

Well, when you put it that way, it's obvious what the choice will be. If they have a choice.

Pez said:

I would like this to happen, just for the 'poetic justice' that you mentioned. Lately it seems as though the only female with any power is Schierke, who is also a child. Farnese has definitely taken a back seat compared to the crazy she used to be, though for the good of those around her. However, it seems to me that women are taking a back seat to everything in Berserk right now

Click to expand...

I think you're somehow right, but you forget to mention Sonia the medium and the princess. Okay the princess' role could remain little, but there is a possibility that her role would win more influence.

Aazealh said:

Guts has already chosen, that's why he's going to Elfhelm. Once they get there, assuming she can be cured, the choice will reside on her side, not his.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's right. But Guts is definitively willing to bring down Griffith. So as Casca will regain her consciousness, will he think that he could leave her in Elfhelm?

Back to topic. I think Casca wouldn't kill Griffith. Maybe she will bring him down, crush his empire and force him into a corner with help of course. But i think she will let him go, let him live so he could be rotting as a broken man. She will be bitterly disappointed by him. I can't think of a Casca that is reacting like guts. I'm willing to admit that she is hot-headed, but is she that vengeful?

kaimera said:

Yeah, that's right. But Guts is definitively willing to bring down Griffith. So as Casca will regain her consciousness, will he think that he could leave her in Elfhelm?

Click to expand...

He's sworn to himself that he would never abandon her again enough times that I don't think the question even needs to be raised.

kaimera said:

But i think she will let him go, let him live so he could be rotting as a broken man.

Click to expand...

We're talking about Femto here so I don't think that's an option.

Aazealh said:

He's sworn to himself that he would never abandon her again enough times that I don't think the question even needs to be raised.

Click to expand...

That's right. But if she decides that she doesn't want him to shelter her in a way that it is impossible for him to protect her and respect her. What will he do? I can't make that into a compelling situation but there is a possibility. What if when she will regain her consciousness but can't remember the eclipse? What if she wouldn't believe Guts and run to Femto and telling Guts never get near her? I really don't know how she will be when she is back on the scene.

Aazealh said:

We're talking about Femto here so I don't think that's an option.

Click to expand...

Okay, you're right. That is a generic question. How do you kill a member of the God Hand? What will happen if you do so? I'm curious to know it, but Miura won't disappoint me.

kaimera said:

What if she wouldn't believe Guts and run to Femto and telling Guts never get near her?

Click to expand...

Well it's not like she can get near Femto herself, whether she wants to or not. But really, I don't see any of that happening, and I don't feel like I even have to say why.

Aazealh said:

Guts has already chosen, that's why he's going to Elfhelm. Once they get there, assuming she can be cured, the choice will reside on her side, not his.

Click to expand...

This seems interesting to me. I wonder if he is doing this because 1) there is no way he can get around his feelings for Caska, so he is trying to make her better, however 2) if Caska were sane, and if Griffith were no impossible to get at right now, would he be spending his time on this journey? He cannot conceivably get through the new Band, so he is kind of doing this by default. It has never really said that he is giving up on revenge.

Pez said:

I wonder if he is doing this because 1) there is no way he can get around his feelings for Casca, so he is trying to make her better, however 2) if Casca were sane, and if Griffith were no impossible to get at right now, would he be spending his time on this journey?

Click to expand...

He's journeying to Elfhelm because it's a safe place for Casca in her current state. And yeah, I think it's pretty clear he still loves her and just can't get over her. He's accepted a lot of compromises for her sake (turning his back on revenge, traveling with other people, and so on). If she were sane I imagine he would have wanted her to accompany him in his quest for revenge. The rest is purely hypothetical, although some of the same questions might arise when she's finally cured.

Pez said:

He cannot conceivably get through the new Band, so he is kind of doing this by default.

Click to expand...

Nah, that's not how he views it himself. His state of mind in that regard is perfectly embodied by the Beast of Darkness: he'd rather die trying than give up. He's not looking at it in a calm and reasonable manner. For example, in Vritannis Serpico had to intervene while a half-dead Guts was standing up to Zodd and a bunch of apostles, ready to start a quarrel he couldn't have possibly won. Casca was the reason he stepped down, as always.

If she weren't there Guts would most likely be dead already, having tried to get to Griffith amidst a sea of apostles.