Poll

Will Falconia and Elfhelm go to war?

Yes
5 (19.2%)
No
7 (26.9%)
I want to see it happen.
9 (34.6%)
I don't want to see it happen.
5 (19.2%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?  (Read 4764 times)

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Offline Alucroas

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Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« on: April 09, 2014, 06:47:56 PM »
My answer: yes.

Griffith has already shown his willingness to go after people who possess magical abilities, Flora being only the first, and the fact that Daiba is hiding from Griffith rather than serving under him makes me think that there is likely a strict ban on magic as he probably believes it to be the only thing capable of challenging him. Otherwise, what reason would Daiba have to be sitting in a barn feeding his companion creature, despite everybody else in town knowing full well that they have a demon army serving as one of their main sources of defense against an attack.

There is clearly some discrimination being laid out before us and Falconia's dark side has already begun to show with that one small glimpse.

Griffith had Flora killed -- killed while he was at war with another supernatural force, Ganishka -- sending two of his strongest Apostles along with a small platoon of soldiers to get the job done. In his eyes, witches, wizards, and warlocks definitely pose a threat his reign, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered going out of his way to do that.

What is Elfhelm's reaction going to be to this?

Hell, if I know. We have yet to meet the King of the Flower Storm, but he is likely already aware of Flora's death, and as an Astral being himself, he's obviously aware of the fact that the Astral and Physical planes have been merged. In my eyes, the reason these two planes have been merged is so Griffith can have easier access to erasing them from the face of existence, with the World Helix tree granting him vision of everything on Earth.

What I do believe is that if Elfhelm does decide to launch a pre-emptive strike before Griffith launches his, then they will likely want Guts on their side, as he has proven himself capable of slaying many Apostles, even when he was armed with nothing more than a broken dagger and horn. This makes Guts a valuable asset, and it wouldn't be the first time he's had people wanting to use him as their mercenary. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm will use Casca's mental restoration as leverage to make him take their side. Flora's amulet and ward services didn't come for free either, remember, so why would the King of the Flower Storm's?

This could force Guts into abandoning Casca again while she is off being mentally healed, granting him the "freedom" to take revenge on Griffith, but at what cost? She suddenly wakes up, fully healed, only for Guts to have taken off and left for war?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Griffith will attack Elfhelm or begin his campaign against the Astral denizens at some point, but there are many implications for Guts to take into account pending this war does happen.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 07:56:01 PM »
Hey Alucroas.

That's been a popular theory for god knows how long, over 10 years really. And while I do think the residents of Elfhelm as a whole will most definitely disapprove of Falconia, I have a problem with the idea of elves (like Puck and Ivalera, you know) going to war against apostles. So here are some thoughts about what you said.

Griffith has already shown his willingness to go after people who possess magical abilities, Flora being only the first, and the fact that Daiba is hiding from Griffith rather than serving under him makes me think that there is likely a strict ban on magic as he probably believes it to be the only thing capable of challenging him. Otherwise, what reason would Daiba have to be sitting in a barn feeding his companion creature, despite everybody else in town knowing full well that they have a demon army serving as one of their main sources of defense against an attack.

Ganishka's right hand man hiding from the enemy who annihilated him? Who'd have thought! What reason could he have to be laying low? Plenty really. Very simply, maybe he's observing what things are like in Falconia and does not want to get noticed. We don't know what his agenda is. In any case, Luca certainly does not seem to have a problem with it, and it's not like it's a super well kept secret either apparently.

In my eyes, the reason these two planes have been merged is so Griffith can have easier access to erasing them from the face of existence, with the World Helix tree granting him vision of everything on Earth.

That seems a really backward way of doing things. I mean astral beings had almost completely disappeared from the world, and merging the astral and physical worlds brought them back in full force. The world is also big, very big, and it seems unlikely that Falconia's armies will get rid of them all rapidly, if at all. What would they have done against a being like the Sea God? Rather, remember that among all the astral beings that were brought into the world were four former humans... Beings of incredible power that could not manifest themselves in the physical world before that point. To that was very likely one of the main goals (if not the main goal) of the merging.

What I do believe is that if Elfhelm does decide to launch a pre-emptive strike before Griffith launches his, then they will likely want Guts on their side, as he has proven himself capable of slaying many Apostles, even when he was armed with nothing more than a broken dagger and horn. This makes Guts a valuable asset, and it wouldn't be the first time he's had people wanting to use him as their mercenary. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm will use Casca's mental restoration as leverage to make him take their side. [...] This could force Guts into abandoning Casca again while she is off being mentally healed, granting him the "freedom" to take revenge on Griffith, but at what cost?

I bet Femto's already shaking in his boots when he thinks of the might of the Elfin Armies that will soon be at his door. Nah, a preemptive strike from the elves against Falconia? I just don't see how that could work at this point. Not that I don't think there could be a conflict on a wide scale opposing partisans of the "natural" order of things against the minions of the God Hand (which would include Falconia's armies), but given the size of Falconia's walls that just doesn't seem to be the most sensible approach. And they'd need more than piskies to do it. Really, it just doesn't fit the way I picture Elfhelm in my head. Plus if Guts were to go after Griffith, I think he'd do it on a smaller scale, something more personal, and more befitting of his character.

As for leaving Casca behind, that's just not the direction the story's taken. Guts has said he would never do that again, and so far he's kept his word. Why change now? Especially when he's been told that she could possibly regain herself. Besides, he pretty much needs her to keep going with the Berserk's armor, and doubly so if he has to face more formidable enemies in the future. Not to mention the Moonlight Boy's role in all of this. Casca will likely be essential in that regard, and I strongly believe the boy is the key to vanquishing Griffith. And do you really think the king of the elves would blackmail Guts into going to war over the restoration of his lover? That's hardly been the elf way so far... Lastly, if anyone had to lead the "rebel army" against overlord Femto, the most qualified by far among Guts' group would be... Casca.

Offline RanShi

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 08:11:42 PM »
Damn I saw the title of the topic and I was like.. duuudee...  :daiba:

I like the Daiba approach tho. Now when I think about it, it would make sense of him joining Guts in some way. It would be a nice twist.

Just too early for us to speculate. We haven't even seen a glimpse of Elfhelm...

I think this is a period for the series to explore the Falconia side of the story, show us how the city works, etc. in essence how things work for them over there. I don't really know what Griffith and co. are gonna do now...? Fight the monsters to gain the favor of the people of Midland? Meanwhile the Guts side of the story will be more about progression, Casca, finding allies etc. Don't know why, but it would feel really stupid if Guts just went to the Elf King and the whole thing turned into a big war right away.. Berserk isn't that fast moving and crazy.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 08:19:51 PM »
For Falconia to make the first move, they would have to come up with a good reason I'd imagine in order to convince the human faction of the armies to go to war against Elfhelm ... which makes me wonder, you think Griffith needs their support to launch this sort of attack or could he possibly do it with the Apostles gathered in Falconia alone?

I'd imagine war between both sides in inevitable, the scale of it though ... like Aaz suggests may not be on a large scale, not as big as the Ganishka war perhaps?
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Offline Alucroas

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 09:39:45 PM »
Quote from: Aazealh
And while I do think the residents of Elfhelm as a whole will most definitely disapprove of Falconia, I have a problem with the idea of elves (like Puck and Ivalera, you know) going to war against apostles.

I don't think Elfhelm's army would consist solely of elves and pixies. In fact, assuming anything like that is completely short-sighted. The reason I didn't go into any detail myself is because I'd be inclined to believe that there are more than just Elves occupying a magical island that witches, wizards, and warlocks know about (evidenced when Schierke and Skullknight spoke together about it), thus making it not too far-fetched to assume that there might just happen to be some variety.

Quote from: Aazealh
Ganishka's right hand man hiding from the enemy who annihilated him? Who'd have thought!

People who know that Griffith has a reputation for not holding grudges against former war enemies, as is blatantly obvious when Rickert passes by some of their ex-Kushan soldiers, and when Rakshas joins his army would have thought! It wouldn't be hard too hard to draw that conclusion given the information on Falconia's demographics. If he knows about Griffith's war on magic then that alone is reason enough for him to be hiding, not because he's an ex-enemy who, for all we know, Griffith may look favorably upon should he pledge his magical skills to him, and that would not be out of his character to do so.

Quote from: Aazealh
That seems a really backward way of doing things. I mean astral beings had almost completely disappeared from the world, and merging the astral and physical worlds brought them back in full force. The world is also big, very big, and it seems unlikely that Falconia's armies will get rid of them all rapidly, if at all. What would they have done against a being like the Sea God? Rather, remember that among all the astral beings that were brought into the world were four former humans... Beings of incredible power that could not manifest themselves in the physical world before that point. To that was very likely one of the main goals (if not the main goal) of the merging.

I was referring to a specific reason for a specific goal: Griffith's campaign against beings of the Astral Plane who he deems a threat to his reign. How rapidly Falconia's armies will get rid of them is no relevant concern of mine. He only seems directly concerned with killing off Astral beings capable of using magic, as that seems to be the only thing capable of even coming close to touching a God Hand. The Cockatrice was killed by Irvine because its a threat to people travelling on their way to Falconia, otherwise we'd have probably witnessed more scenes of other Astral beings getting killed, and not just the one we saw trying to kill the group Rickert and Erica were moving with. It is a threat, sure, but it is a threat to only to ordinary people. The Sea God isn't even a good example because it didn't display any abilities that lie in the realm of manipulating, space, time, or even the natural elements. It was a physical threat, nothing more, and the sound-waves coming from its heartbeat are not magical, but just a physical consequence of possessing such a massive heart and Guts being at such close proximity to it.

Quote from: Aazealh
Nah, a preemptive strike from the elves against Falconia? I just don't see how that could work at this point. Not that I don't think there could be a conflict on a wide scale opposing partisans of the "natural" order of things against the minions of the God Hand (which would include Falconia's armies), but given the size of Falconia's walls that just doesn't seem to be the most sensible approach.

Nobody knows how big Elfhelm is in comparison to Falconia. It's an island out at sea, hidden from human eyes, and doesn't show up on any maps. And again, there have been many implications to suggest that there's more than just elves and pixies there. If there's a war between Elfhelm and Falconia it's not going to be a bunch of doll-sized creatures going at it with demons twice the size of your common hut. They're going to have back up -- from what -- I don't know for certain, but to reduce Elfhelm's armies down to something so minuscule and minimal is pretty ridiculous.

Quote from: Aazealh
As for leaving Casca behind, that's just not the direction the story's taken. Guts has said he would never do that again, and so far he's kept his word. Why change now? Especially when he's been told that she could possibly regain herself. Besides, he pretty much needs her to keep going with the Berserk's armor, and doubly so if he has to face more formidable enemies in the future. Not to mention the Moonlight Boy's role in all of this. Casca will likely be essential in that regard, and I strongly believe the boy is the key to vanquishing Griffith. And do you really think the king of the elves would blackmail Guts into going to war over the restoration of his lover? That's hardly been the elf way so far... Lastly, if anyone had to lead the "rebel army" against overlord Femto, the most qualified by far among Guts' group would be... Casca.

Don't blow this out of proportion like you're doing right now. A witch named Flora wanted something in return for drawing seal across his neck that would reduce the effects of the brand and makes thing easier on he and Casca. It's not a leap of logic to predict the Hanafubuku King might want something in return for reversing hideous amounts of trauma enough for Casca to be able to speak and interact with people, Guts above all, like a normal human being.

As I said, Guts will have many things to take into account if it happens. What Guts wants may not be what Casca wants, and if Casca doesn't want to go to war with Griffith after her mind has been restored, even though Guts made a deal with the Elf King, then he may just be inclined to keep his word. That's something he's also never done: broken his word, so why would he do it now, even while caught in such a massive predicament?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 10:02:25 PM »
I don't think Elfhelm's army would consist solely of elves and pixies. In fact, assuming anything like that is completely short-sighted. The reason I didn't go into any detail myself is because I'd be inclined to believe that there are more than just Elves occupying a magical island that witches, wizards, and warlocks know about (evidenced when Schierke and Skullknight spoke together about it), thus making it not too far-fetched to assume that there might just happen to be some variety.

Reminder: it's called Elfhelm. You talk about making assumptions as to what will be there, but it seems to me that you're the one assuming "armies" will be around waiting to march on Falconia, when nothing of the sort has been hinted at so far. Also, please tell me the difference between "witches, wizards, and warlocks", I'm curious.

People who know that Griffith has a reputation for not holding grudges against former war enemies, as is blatantly obvious when Rickert passes by some of their ex-Kushan soldiers

Jarif already worked for Griffith before Ganishka's demise. And you can't really compare random soldiers to Daiba, they're really on a completely different level.

and when Rakshas joins his army would have thought!

Rakshas is an apostle.

It wouldn't be hard too hard to draw that conclusion given the information on Falconia's demographics.

Has it not occurred to you that Daiba might simply not want to be noticed? That he's just not on Griffith's side?

If he knows about Griffith's war on magic then that alone is reason enough for him to be hiding

Having sent apostles to kill Flora is not the same as having declared a "war on magic". You're extrapolating, and to be frank Daiba's magic skills are rather modest when compared to Schierke's, and would have likely been dwarfed by Flora's.

I was referring to a specific reason for a specific goal: Griffith's campaign against beings of the Astral Plane who he deems a threat to his reign.

See above. What campaign? And Flora wasn't an astral being. She was human.

The Cockatrice was killed by Irvine because its a threat to people travelling on their way to Falconia, otherwise we'd have probably witnessed more scenes of other Astral beings getting killed, and not just the one we saw trying to kill the group Rickert and Erica were moving with.

I don't get your point. So far we've only heard about soldiers killing astral beasts to protect refugees.

Nobody knows how big Elfhelm is in comparison to Falconia. It's an island out at sea, hidden from human eyes, and doesn't show up on any maps. And again, there have been many implications to suggest that there's more than just elves and pixies there. If there's a war between Elfhelm and Falconia it's not going to be a bunch of doll-sized creatures going at it with demons twice the size of your common hut. They're going to have back up -- from what -- I don't know for certain, but to reduce Elfhelm's armies down to something so minuscule and minimal is pretty ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is to assume that Elfhelm has armies to begin with when that certainly hasn't been the depiction we've had from it so far. Also, Skellig is the island, Elfhelm is the name of the Elf City that's on it.

Don't blow this out of proportion like you're doing right now. A witch named Flora wanted something in return for drawing seal across his neck that would reduce the effects of the brand and makes thing easier on he and Casca. It's not a leap of logic to predict the Hanafubuku King might want something in return for reversing hideous amounts of trauma enough for Casca to be able to speak and interact with people, Guts above all, like a normal human being.

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion here, especially not compared to you. Re-read what each of us has said. Anyway, you're selling Flora pretty short here. Her bargain was an excuse to send Schierke along with them to Enoch. It served a triple goal: help the villagers because she was too weak to do it herself, acquaint Guts' group and Schierke because Flora knew her time was short and she wanted Schierke to go with them, and give her time to actually prepare Casca's necklace as well as the talisman inside the Berserk's armor, which is what she planned to give Guts.

By the way, "Hanafubuku King" is a really stupid non-translation of the Elf King's name, which properly translates to "King of the Flower Storm". Now I've gone ahead and corrected it in your first post, but please use the proper denomination by yourself from now on.

As I said, Guts will have many things to take into account if it happens. What Guts wants may not be what Casca wants, and if Casca doesn't want to go to war with Griffith after her mind has been restored, even though Guts made a deal with the Elf King, then he may just be inclined to keep his word. That's something he's also never done: broken his word, so why would he do it now, even while caught in such a massive predicament?

Well don't ask me to answer a question you've just made up to justify a scenario you've also made up. Personally I don't think Guts will leave Casca, nor do I think he'll break his word. And I don't think the Elf King will demand that he kill the God Hand, otherwise refusing to cure Casca either.

Will there eventually be an actual war (instead of soldiers defending people against wild beasts) between evil/human forces (Falconia) and astral beings? Possibly. But if so I don't believe it'll happen in the way you think. It's the same for the campaign against magic users you keep mentioning. I wouldn't be surprised if it became the case (although who actually poses a threat to Griffith right now? No one), but so far Flora has been an isolated case. I also don't see how that could be a reason for the merging of the worlds, given that she was killed before it happened.

Offline Arvin

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 06:02:33 PM »
I picked the "I want to see it happen" option. Whether it will happen or not it's hard to say, but there's good potential and a precedent in Flora's case.

Well, the way I think it could happen is by Falconia (or rather, Griffith) taking the initiative and making it something akin to the sortie/skirmish he tasked Zodd with in Vritannis. The scale of such conflict is hard to predict but I would already be very happy to see something about the same size as said sortie happening in the story. Taking the geography of the target into account, which is an Island of pretty hard access, that would initially limit the tasking force to that sizable ammount of flying apostles that Griffith has in his apostle army. I personally think a regular army of humans, whether from the old Midland army or the Kushan soldiers he's gathered wouldn't be involved, for many reasons aside from logistics.

First is the strong precedent. The other 3 most similar occasions I can think of Griffith handled it with apostles only, including the presence of one or more strong NeoHawk captain/generals and Zodd unanimously present in all those operations. Those 3 were the assault in Vritannis, the rescuing operation of princess Charllote in the Kushan conquered Midland and the assassination of Flora, the later which he took pretty seriously by sending Zodd and a good contingent of apostle soldiers (Grunbeld also asked to be included in the mission to show his service and loyalty to Griffith).

This is already tangential to another thought that occurred to me. Assuming that we will find magic users in a level close to Flora's in the Island or the Elf City, Griffith can't half-ass an attack like that and limit it to Zodd and his flying apostles. Zodd is an exceptionally powerful foe but we saw his limits against Ganishka in Vritannis. I imagine that one or many skilled magic users would be able to handle Zodd in a simillar manner and possibly even a good part of the flying apostles as well for the most part. It led me to a crazy theory in which Griffith could perhaps use his powers to transport a decent size of his land-bound forces through the Ganishka tree branches, much like the moonlight boy did on episode 331 but on a much bigger scale (assuming those branches belonged to the Ganishka tree). That would diversify more the forces at land and give Griffith a better foothold (no pun intended) in this conflict.

This might seem farfetched when considering this at this point (even I thought so), like, as unlikely as it is, why not simply putting his apostle forces on a boat and make the sea travel much like Guts is doing? Seems much more conventional and a simpler method without resorting to fartetched theories to imagine such conflict happening. But then I think that if or whenever this conflict happens, it probably won't catch the inhabitants of Elfhelm or Skellig by surprise. Going by the rumours and stories about the King of the Flower Storm, I'm confident that whatever is happening in this new world he must be pretty well aware of it. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if he knew or has the ability to know exactly when the attack was going to happen (very palpable when considering familiars, something Schierke has used to spy on Griffith for instance or the relatively simple capability for a being of his power to sense a great storm of "evil power" coming his way).

So I think it's quite likely there won't be major surprises. Going back to the boat scenario of transporting the apostles, having a very good idea of when the danger is coming could give room for the King of the Flower Storm and/or the denizens of Elfhelm/Skellig to take precautions. By that, besides being prepared for possible conflict, I imagine or wouldn't be surprised that such inhabitants would have the kinship or ability to summon or enlist strong sea familiars as allies like some of the gargantuous sea creatures we have seen on Guts voyage. That would pose a big threat to this approach, making Griffith's plans literally sink down the sea.

Another way that seems more feasible would be putting the non-flying apostles on the back of the flying ones for the ocean travel, much like we see with the humans of the regular army doing with the apostles in the epic scale war against the towering Ganishka and its derived sprouts, only that they were doing it with the land apostles. But now that I think about it such approach could also not be immune to some kind of precautionary interception along the way. Magic users or the King of Flower Storm himself tapping into elemental forces to summon a lightning storm along the way could undermine such planning to some extent. The travelling to Skellig, whether by sea or flying, seems like a very exhaustive logistic movement for a hyphotetical attack anyway, even for apostles (unlike the kinds of sorties or attacks we have seen where we can assume the battle campings aren't extremely distant).

Thinking this way makes the theory of Griffith using the all emcompassing Ganishka tree branches as an efficient means of logistics for his armies's assault even more alluring.

Going back to the other reasons that Griffith wouldn't include humans in such invasion from what I understand is involving them in a conflict where among astral beings, also other humans would be killed for a reason that is not convenient for them to know. This attitude would seem very contradicting specially when Griffith has shown a disposition for acceptance of people from other cultures and beliefs into his reign, in the form of the Kushan, with the aggravating that they were at the time their sworn enemies during their conflicts. Attacking another nation for apparent no reason from the perspective of the regular humans wouldn't look good for Griffith in this stage of the game. The other reason I can think of, also related to the previous, is the non-convenient nature that the knowledge of magic users have to most humans who don't have a better vision of the big picture or with whom they are siding with.
This has been touched upon already here and I also think there's a certain implied conflict between users of magic and the workings of the God Hands.

On the Guts factor of this question, the least I could say is that in such scenario he would be a very significant and welcome force to drive the invasors away, however they get there. At any rate, I personally find it harder to speculate on what kind of agreement Guts would make with the King of the Flower Storm though. It's hard to say what the KoFS will be able to do for Casca and how that will affect the group. I think it's possible that what he does won't outright make her come back to her senses but it could help her in a more subtle and long term way. Her recovery could be gradual. In such scenario I also find it hard to see Guts leaving her, he would notice even the smallest change in Casca and would likely want to oversee the process. It would be important for him to be there when Casca needs him while in a more lucid and emotional state.

With all that said, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of Guts temporarily parting ways with her to pursue other goals either. Casca is certainly at the top right now but I'm not sure how going after Griffith ranks in his priority list at the moment. This is a complex question because assuming that he does, other than Casca herself how much would that affect and break down the group? Would Farnese stay along with Casca and continue to safeguard her there? It would be interesting to see Farnese telling Casca what they have been through since together and how much Guts has been caring for her, if things go this way. That would of course later propel Casca to go after and meet Guts again. She will probably have an important role in the Guts-Griffith-Moonlight child conflict.
Other than taking care of Casca, Farnese's prolonged stay at Elfhelm could also bode very well in her studies of learning the ways of magic. And if Farnese stays, what about Serpico then? Would he be able to depart with Farnese too? This would be an equally dramatic development for both of them. Isidro and Schierke would very likely follow Guts if he decides to go.

Completely different scenario, but with very exciting possibilities if Miura decides to go this way.

I think I lost track again with all that scenario building, but again, with all things considered it's possible this conflict won't even happen, as interesting as it sounds. A direct assault to Elfhelm by Griffith might either not be worthy the effort for him or he may deem the threat of the isolationist inhabitants of the Island not significant for him (or in a crude and outside-universe way of explaining things, Miura simply won't go there for whatever reasons).

Besides expecting the initiative coming from Griffith if we have Falconia vs Elfhelm (it seems unlikely and unlike elves who are usually depicted as pacific creatures to take the initiative and go to arms), one last thing to consider is that although they seemingly wouldn't go for a preemptive attack in my conception, I wouldn't doubt their capacity to try to fight back if their home is directly threatened. Elves may seem like very flimsy creatures at first sight but who knows what kind of magic, strength or elemental forces they are capable to harness collectively in order to fight back.
I also hope and expect Skellig to be more than Elves and human magic users, that could include some exotic astral creatures (possibly or probably kindred with the inhabitants of Elfhelm) that would show combat prowess in such a situation.

Whew... I had a lot to say.  :isidro:
Now obligatory Puck to arms reference:



Credits for the coloring to Vaxillus from this same community.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 07:12:36 PM »
Taking the geography of the target into account, which is an Island of pretty hard access, that would initially limit the tasking force to that sizable ammount of flying apostles that Griffith has in his apostle army.

How many weeks do you think they can fly without resting, eating or drinking?

Thinking this way makes the theory of Griffith using the all emcompassing Ganishka tree branches as an efficient means of logistics for his armies's assault even more alluring.

Could be, but there's no guarantee he can just send people somewhere through those means. Know who could possibly attack Elfhelm out of nowhere despite the protective wards though? A member of the God Hand. Now that's a threat Guts could be called upon to address, and what better place for him to fight an impossibly strong enemy than an island full of elves?

With all that said, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of Guts temporarily parting ways with her to pursue other goals either.

Depends on what you mean by temporarily. It's not like getting to Elfhelm has been particularly easy so far, and I don't actually expect Guts to return there once he leaves. Also, he's been journeying there for 15 volumes by now, so I can't believe it'll only be to dump Casca and leave, essentially repeating what he promised he'd never do again. It just doesn't make much sense scenaristically.

Casca is certainly at the top right now but I'm not sure how going after Griffith ranks in his priority list at the moment.

Well it ranks below Casca, that much we know.

I think I lost track again with all that scenario building, but again, with all things considered it's possible this conflict won't even happen, as interesting as it sounds. A direct assault to Elfhelm by Griffith might either not be worthy the effort for him or he may deem the threat of the isolationist inhabitants of the Island not significant for him (or in a crude and outside-universe way of explaining things, Miura simply won't go there for whatever reasons).

One thing worth mentioning is that a conflict between Falconia and a coalition of astral beings could happen without Elfhelm necessarily being at the center of it. For example it's much easier for me to picture the merrows taking part in a fight to defend their way of life (or their lives, period) than it is with piskies, who as you mention just aren't built for that kind of thing. In that hypothetical scenario, an alliance between various races could be formed over time to fight back against the God Hand's forces, and for all we know Guts' group could be the ones who'd have to set it up, travelling the world to do it.

Offline Deci

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 11:55:06 PM »
I said no, I've gathered so far that Elfhelm prefers to stay out of things, not a place to engage in direct conflict at all.

I like what Miura is potentially doing with the trolls though, with reports of them attacking. As far as big-scale warfare I think that type of battle, think the attack on Enoch, but a response by the Falcon army instead of Guts and co. If Miura is going for a classic medieval fantasy world, we could see orcs, goblins, and other nasties banding with the ogres and trolls and forming armies of their own. We already saw trolls using weapons and one of them wearing armor, after all.

What I also wonder about, is what Rakshas is up to! Did he cling onto Skull Knight during all the craziness atop Ganishka? If Griffith wishes to somehow get at Elfhelm, sending someone like Rakshas as a stowaway to spring and assassinate the King of the Flower Storm seems like a more likely situation. Not that I fully subscribe to it. Maybe he was/is just doing recon work, or hell something different altogether.

Also, I'm not thinking that Daiba is necessarily hiding, his nature could be just to be inconspicuous at the moment. He was just defeated and all, as well. So perhaps he's acting defeated?

Offline Arvin

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 01:26:34 AM »
How many weeks do you think they can fly without resting, eating or drinking?

Yes, the distance would certainly be a factor and it's something I considered later on in the post.
It would be wise to stop by in some Islands along the way to rest and resupply. Apostles are much beyond human capability, but even they have limits. It seems like it would be quite the expedition anyway we cut it, which makes me think again if it would be worth the effort, unless there were more efficient ways to transport the attacking forces.

Could be, but there's no guarantee he can just send people somewhere through those means. Know who could possibly attack Elfhelm out of nowhere despite the protective wards though? A member of the God Hand. Now that's a threat Guts could be called upon to address, and what better place for him to fight an impossibly strong enemy than an island full of elves?

Yeah, the reasoning would be that if the moonlight child can travel great distances with seemingly great ease and the good chance that the child and Griffith are related or even share the same body, Femto as a God Hand perhaps could replicate it with even more power and control. But you're right, there's no guarantee, just a grounded theory I guess. It's also possible the ability we saw on episode 331 is actually exclusive to the moonlight child. Either that or the branches could only be used that way at certain phases of the moon. Some additional thoughts.

A member of the God Hand attacking Elfhelm would be awesome. Perhaps even more so than the kinds of battles we are imagining here. They appear very rarely in the story, that could be a good moment for one of them to show up. Regardless of their possible presence in the Island, I think we will hear some neat information about them there. But if one of them is to appear there, who do you think would it be? Void? Too soon perhaps. Slan has had her fair  share of appearances so far. Ubik could be so mind blowing that I think Miura would leave him for later too. Now Conrad... it's interesting because he's by far the less outspoken out of the group. Considering that Elfhelm will most likely be a very lively place, the contrasting pestilence that he seems to be associated with could bring a very interesting conflict.

And how would the Skullknight factor in this? I imagine he would certainly appear at some point, if he wasn't already there.

Depends on what you mean by temporarily. It's not like getting to Elfhelm has been particularly easy so far, and I don't actually expect Guts to return there once he leaves. Also, he's been journeying there for 15 volumes by now, so I can't believe it'll only be to dump Casca and leave, essentially repeating what he promised he'd never do again. It just doesn't make much sense scenaristically.

Yes, it's been an immense journey, though I think much more time has been elapsed for us than the characters in the story. By temporarily I mean until Casca is able to stand on her own and follow her own decisions, after being treated by the KoFS and spending enough time there to recover and reach that point. She would obviously leave to go after Guts soon enough. From there we could see some little adventures from herself, while re-gaining her fighting prowess, resourcefulness and other abilities she used to possess; and a more refined Farnese as a magic user; until she finally catches up with Guts and they can meet again, this time in a much more emotional and meaningfull way as that would be a first ever since Casca has become like she is now. Holding that moment when they are able to both interact in a lucid manner would build even more expectation (imagining that this time it's Casca who'd be reflectig about Guts along the way, when the later is absent this time around, on what he's done, where he could be now and how he would be).
I also imagine that for Guts to leave Casca again it will be for a very good reason. He did make that oath to never abandon her again, but it's possible he could re-evaluate his goals or what he will do next. I look forward to Elfhelm to see the thoughts that will be in Guts mind when they reach and settle there. I think it will be a moment of reflection.

Regardless of Guts staying with Casca or leaving her to do his own things, I think the story will reach a point where vengeance against Griffith won't be the only or even the biggest motivator for the inevitable conflict between them. I imagine that with story progression things will reach a point where, regardless of personal reasons, Griffith will need to be stopped and Guts will be the only one who could do that (with help along the way). Of course, that also implies we can't deny their history, but the vengeance motif will serve more as a cool backdrop for the story.

Well it ranks below Casca, that much we know.

Sure. I wonder how many times Guts thought about Griffith ever since he took Casca with her on his journey. Good excuse to re-read the series again.  :guts:

One thing worth mentioning is that a conflict between Falconia and a coalition of astral beings could happen without Elfhelm necessarily being at the center of it. For example it's much easier for me to picture the merrows taking part in a fight to defend their way of life (or their lives, period) than it is with piskies, who as you mention just aren't built for that kind of thing. In that hypothetical scenario, an alliance between various races could be formed over time to fight back against the God Hand's forces, and for all we know Guts' group could be the ones who'd have to set it up, travelling the world to do it.

Absolutely, I would like even more if we could see a conflict like that without Elfhelm's necessary involvement. That would happen later on in the story I guess. Elfhelm just seems closest we could see of such a scenario happening.

And I would like very much if the story followed the same or a path simillar to the one you mentioned. I have the least hurry to see the resolution between Guts/Griffith/Casca, as one of if not my favourite aspect of Berserk is about the journey. Though I do wish to see closure in the story at some point, in the far future. For that and many other reasons I wish Miura a very healthy life.

Offline Patou244

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 06:43:51 PM »
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That's hardly been the elf way so far... Lastly, if anyone had to lead the "rebel army" against overlord Femto, the most qualified by far among Guts' group would be... Casca.

I would like nothing better but there is still a definate question mark on what Casca will want to do about Griffith when/if she recovers herself. This aspect of the plot occupies my thoughts quite a bit.

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A member of the God Hand attacking Elfhelm would be awesome. Perhaps even more so than the kinds of battles we are imagining here. They appear very rarely in the story, that could be a good moment for one of them to show up. Regardless of their possible presence in the Island, I think we will hear some neat information about them there. But if one of them is to appear there, who do you think would it be? Void? Too soon perhaps. Slan has had her fair  share of appearances so far. Ubik could be so mind blowing that I think Miura would leave him for later too. Now Conrad... it's interesting because he's by far the less outspoken out of the group. Considering that Elfhelm will most likely be a very lively place, the contrasting pestilence that he seems to be associated with could bring a very interesting conflict.

wouldn't the Godhand be unable to manifest admidst a Elf sanctuary? From my understanding of elves and pixies any place they take up residence acts as like a barrier that evil or negative entities can not tresspass on. It is like they leave a inprint on places they used to live. Used to live. Would an apostle or other evil being be able to step foot in an area with a high concentration of elves that are physically living be much stronger then a place they used to dwell? Or does this only apply to low level  evil spirits? Also I thought God Hand could only manefest in areas where they have a high level of negative influence, like Slan during the orgy scene during the conviction arc. I do not think there would be any influence in elfhelm for them to manefest there.

Casca from Berserk. May 2014 be the year Casca fans get to see a return of her true self, the kickass warrior and leader of the Hawks/Falcons.

Online Walter

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 07:28:20 PM »
I would like nothing better but there is still a definate question mark on what Casca will want to do about Griffith when/if she recovers herself. This aspect of the plot occupies my thoughts quite a bit.

I think the conflict ahead for Casca likely has more to do with her child than her pre-rape feelings about Griffith.

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wouldn't the Godhand be unable to manifest admidst a Elf sanctuary? From my understanding of elves and pixies any place they take up residence acts as like a barrier that evil or negative entities can not tresspass on.

We don't know those rules still apply in the new world. And afterall, the God Hand have already manifested.

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Also I thought God Hand could only manefest in areas where they have a high level of negative influence, like Slan during the orgy scene during the conviction arc. I do not think there would be any influence in elfhelm for them to manefest there.

There are humans there, so there's always evil. But see above for how relevant that is anyway...
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Arvin

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 10:31:28 PM »
wouldn't the Godhand be unable to manifest admidst a Elf sanctuary? From my understanding of elves and pixies any place they take up residence acts as like a barrier that evil or negative entities can not tresspass on. It is like they leave a inprint on places they used to live. Used to live. Would an apostle or other evil being be able to step foot in an area with a high concentration of elves that are physically living be much stronger then a place they used to dwell? Or does this only apply to low level  evil spirits? Also I thought God Hand could only manefest in areas where they have a high level of negative influence, like Slan during the orgy scene during the conviction arc. I do not think there would be any influence in elfhelm for them to manefest there.

That's well observed and the reasoning of an even stronger warding effect in the places where they are actually settled makes a lot of sense. Though I think we could say a thing or two about apostles, at least before the complete merging. Although Flora is a witch, her place did have barriers or warding effects too, but the apostles sent to kill her were able to get through it. Saying that Flora was past her prime is a big understatement, as she mentions her spiritual power has grown weaker over the years. It's possible that she might have been able to ward them off in her best days. And the most curious, though I'm not sure if those were actually real elves at that point, was during the Lost Children chapter (or arc?), where in a close tree (or even the same) where Rochine was settled with her fake elves, Puc was able to see a group of what seemed to be the real deal passing by (piskies just like him). I'm not sure if they were real or what Puc was seeing was some kind of memory from the place when piskies used to inhabit that region. If they were, we could have an awkward but very ironic situation (perhaps that was the point) where Rochine as an apostle was completely oblivious to their presence, while playing elf queen. Or they could just be passing by and Puc was just a serendipituous little fella to see his friends at the right place at the right time. Compared to Puc those piskies had a very mystic aura around them. At the time Piskies or Elves in general really deserved their reputation as mere legends, much like most if not all the astral creatures we are seeing in Fantasia.

We see Puc so frequently that perhaps we take them for granted, but Puc is an aberrant case. He really tries hard to be caught by the human vision.

Now about the GH's levels of manifestation, I think what you mentioned is accurate. Aazealh would certainly be able to explain this better, but let me see if I can handle, the case you mentioned (and Conrad at some point when his image forms out of that mass of rats), was not only before the merging but also before Griffith/Femto's incarnation, which was I think the first event that set the merging of the physical and astral worlds. Slan's manifestation at the Qlipoth was another level of manifestation now that the worlds had began to merge. Seemingly still very spiritual in nature, she needed that host made out of trolls guts/intestines to manifest herself in a more palpable presence. But the level of interaction and influence at that level was much higher for a spiritual being of her nature by then. Slan in particular also had an affinity with the place which probably made the whole process and her ability to display her powers there easier.

Which brings to now. The world has gone through a much more abrupt and complete merging process with the spiritual worlds. Rules as we should expect will probably be a little different at the very least, and looking at the scaling of manifestations by the God Hands in the series, it would be fair to expect even more power and influence the next time they manifest in some way.

The idea/theory is that besides making the world a pandemonium after the merging, with all sorts of more superficial astral beings running around along with humans, if we take what Ganishka says at face value, that he has reached even the abyss and considering he was the catalyst for this abrupt and complete merging, perhaps there won't be a need of any affinity of sorts for the God Hand to manifest in some way at nearly anywhere they want. We saw the lightwave covering the whole planet. Whatever substance Ganishka was storing inside him in that towering form is all over the place at this point.

Besides making most of the humans flock to a convenient garden (governed by one of their own) in this new dangerous world, there's a fat chance that part of the master plan was to give more freedom to the other members so they can spread their influence even more. That would include more powerful manifestations. Brute forcing their way past barriers and protective wards could be possible now.

And as you touched, the kinds of spirits that used to torment Guts and were easily warded off by barriers, past elvish settlements and magic circles are universes apart from the kinds of powerful spiritual beings that the God Hand are.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 10:47:00 PM by Arvin »

Offline Alucroas

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 11:55:05 PM »
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You talk about making assumptions as to what will be there, but it seems to me that you're the one assuming "armies" will be around waiting to march on Falconia, when nothing of the sort has been hinted at so far.

You're missing the point. Whether Elfhelm possesses an "official army" or not isn't important to me. What's important to me is whether or not the KoFS recognizes Guts' value as a warrior, capable of fighting Apostles should his people ever come under attack by Griffith's Apostle Army. It's a matter of the KoFS' ability to make decision based on his own tactical soundness, and not an attempt at saying: "Yes, the KoFS does possess an organized military army."

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Jarif already worked for Griffith before Ganishka's demise.

Quote from: Skullknight Glossary
A Kushan who defected to The Band of the Falcon as a key member of its intelligence unit.

So he's an ex-Kushan soldier. Whether he fought against the BoTH at some point I don't know, but the point of what I said about who Griffith allows into his army and city remains the same.

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And you can't really compare random soldiers to Daiba, they're really on a completely different level.

I'm not trying to compare them.

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Rakshas is an apostle.

Quote from: Skullknight Glossary
Exiled from the Kushan clan of Bakiraka, Rakshas is a mystery. His motivation for allying with Griffith is so he can ensure that one day he can cut off his beautiful head. Rakshas commands the demon search and destroy squad.

According to what you just said that mystery has already been solved. Am I to take what it says in the glossary as truth or what you say about Rakshas as truth? It's a hard choice to make as you're an admin and I wouldn't doubt you had a hand in putting that glossary together.

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I don't get your point. So far we've only heard about soldiers killing astral beasts to protect refugees.

I was pointing out the difference between creatures that pose a threat to humans and beings who pose a threat to Griffith himself.

Read:
Quote from: Alucroas
He only seems directly concerned with killing off Astral beings capable of using magic,

The Cockatrice can't use magic. He sent a cavalry led by Raban and one Apostle to help, most likely in the event that things go south, which they did.

A witch can use magic. Flora, after dying, came back as an ascended being and summoned a wall of flames that blocked Zodd and Grunbeld's path to Guts and co. Her power, imo will go beyond this because while she did ascend onto the Astral Plane, that plane has been merged with the physical, meaning she is likely alive and well somewhere. In this regard, killing her while she was still human was mistake, because it gives her more time to acclimate to becoming an Astral Plane and control her powers.

For all we know she could be in Elfhelm now.

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See above. What campaign? And Flora wasn't an astral being. She was human.

I assume killing Flora to be only the first step. That's an assumption.

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What's ridiculous is to assume that Elfhelm has armies to begin with when that certainly hasn't been the depiction we've had from it so far.

It hasn't been depicted as being anything other than an Elf City. My "assumption" that there's an army there is hypothetical, and if there was one, narrowing it down to piskies:
Quote from: Skullknight
Ivalera and Puck's species, a sub-species of Elves. Piskies are the descendants of Wind spirits, and are themselves called "Spirits of the Wings."
becomes ridiculous when we're talking about the King of Elves. If he's the King of Elves it means he rules over all elves of multiple species, meaning there are going to be more than just tiny fellas like Puck and Ivalera running around.

The fact that Elfhelm is written about in grimoires, magical textbooks written by magic users, makes me believe that some magic users like witches might have been there before and/or still live there to this day. If they live in peace and harmony then I'd imagine they're capable of working together to defend themselves if they ever came under attack by anyone or anything of significant power.

From now on when I refer to Elfhelm as possessing an "army" I'll reword it to make sure it says something along the lines of "capable of banding together" when and if they need to.

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Anyway, you're selling Flora pretty short here. Her bargain was an excuse to send Schierke along with them to Enoch. It served a triple goal: help the villagers because she was too weak to do it herself, acquaint Guts' group and Schierke because Flora knew her time was short and she wanted Schierke to go with them, and give her time to actually prepare Casca's necklace as well as the talisman inside the Berserk's armor, which is what she planned to give Guts.

I know why she made the bargain with Guts as it pertains to serving a triple goal. My concern is her motivation to help Guts, separate from her desire to protect Schierke and help out Enoch. How does helping Guts work in her favor?

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I also don't see how that could be a reason for the merging of the worlds, given that she was killed before it happened.

Because it makes it easier for him to kill all the other people with powers on par with Flora's who may have been out of his reach beforehand. People like the King of The Flowerstorm. I'm not in denial that merging the planes did other things for him too like give him Falconia though.

Online Walter

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2014, 12:48:56 AM »
According to what you just said that mystery has already been solved. Am I to take what it says in the glossary as truth or what you say about Rakshas as truth? It's a hard choice to make as you're an admin and I wouldn't doubt you had a hand in putting that glossary together.

Please only use the manga as a primary source. The encyclopedia is meant as a quick reference guide, not to settle disputes. Also, I wrote that thing 12 years ago so cut me some slack...

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A witch can use magic. Flora, after dying, came back as an ascended being and summoned a wall of flames that blocked Zodd and Grunbeld's path to Guts and co. Her power, imo will go beyond this because while she did ascend onto the Astral Plane, that plane has been merged with the physical, meaning she is likely alive and well somewhere. In this regard, killing her while she was still human was mistake, because it gives her more time to acclimate to becoming an Astral Plane and control her powers.

Whoooaaaaaaaa. Licence and registration, please. Do you have any idea how fast you were blowing through Fanfictionia? All that's accurate above is that she created a wall of flames near the time that she died, and that the worlds have merged. The rest is baseless conjecture. No one save Miura knows how deaths work now that the worlds have merged. But even with that lack of information, there's absolutely no evidence that suggests that all dead people are now inhabiting the world again as if they have infinite lives. It's stepping just outside of the realm of possibility for Flora to make contact with Schierke in a dream or something ... But alive and well? No... I'm actually in awe of how sure you sound about this fanciful notion. Even if seeing Flora and Schierke reunited is something that would bring a smile to me.

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It hasn't been depicted as being anything other than an Elf City. My "assumption" that there's an army there is hypothetical, and if there was one, narrowing it down to piskies:  becomes ridiculous when we're talking about the King of Elves. If he's the King of Elves it means he rules over all elves of multiple species, meaning there are going to be more than just tiny fellas like Puck and Ivalera running around.

None of the elves we've seen thus far, or been hinted at, imply a warlike race ready to march against humans. Instead elves have pulled away from humanity and chose to live apart from human affairs.

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The fact that Elfhelm is written about in grimoires, magical textbooks written by magic users, makes me believe that some magic users like witches might have been there before and/or still live there to this day.

No need to guess. We know there are humans there. In Volume 24 Puck talks about them, and we even see a little flashback-panel of one swinging his staff at a thieving Puck.

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I know why she made the bargain with Guts as it pertains to serving a triple goal. My concern is her motivation to help Guts, separate from her desire to protect Schierke and help out Enoch. How does helping Guts work in her favor?

Flora said that she was helping Guts as a request from a friend (later revealed to be The Skull Knight). Of course that's the pretense. It's all because Flora has faith in Guts, and perhaps sees some of her old friend in him. This is also all in Volume 24, by the way.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:28:19 AM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 10:08:32 AM »
I like what Miura is potentially doing with the trolls though, with reports of them attacking. As far as big-scale warfare I think that type of battle, think the attack on Enoch, but a response by the Falcon army instead of Guts and co.

That wouldn't exactly be big-scale warfare.

If Miura is going for a classic medieval fantasy world, we could see orcs, goblins, and other nasties banding with the ogres and trolls and forming armies of their own.

Well we do know there are many types of creatures in the world now, including goblins, giants, harpies, hydras... That being said, I have a hard time imagining these creatures allying themselves to elves for example, as they're not on the same side of the good/evil scale.

What I also wonder about, is what Rakshas is up to! Did he cling onto Skull Knight during all the craziness atop Ganishka? If Griffith wishes to somehow get at Elfhelm, sending someone like Rakshas as a stowaway to spring and assassinate the King of the Flower Storm seems like a more likely situation. Not that I fully subscribe to it. Maybe he was/is just doing recon work, or hell something different altogether.

Without necessarily having had to cling to him, he could have followed him through a portal yeah. The problems with that idea are still the same than when I raised it though: nothing says SK went to Elfhelm after what happened in volume 34, and Rakshas would have had to avoid detection somehow, which I can't imagine would be easy to do in any situation other than the one we saw on volume 34. It's a pretty small window of possibility. Still, it would indeed be cool to see Guts track a skulking Rakshas on Skellig.

Also, I'm not thinking that Daiba is necessarily hiding, his nature could be just to be inconspicuous at the moment. He was just defeated and all, as well. So perhaps he's acting defeated?

I think his situation and attitude make it pretty clear that he's laying low.

It would be wise to stop by in some Islands along the way to rest and resupply.

Assuming that is possible at all, which doesn't seem to be the case considering what we've seen so far.

Yeah, the reasoning would be that if the moonlight child can travel great distances with seemingly great ease and the good chance that the child and Griffith are related or even share the same body, Femto as a God Hand perhaps could replicate it with even more power and control. But you're right, there's no guarantee, just a grounded theory I guess. It's also possible the ability we saw on episode 331 is actually exclusive to the moonlight child. Either that or the branches could only be used that way at certain phases of the moon. Some additional thoughts.

Yeah I get it, it just doesn't seem all that grounded to me.

Yes, it's been an immense journey, though I think much more time has been elapsed for us than the characters in the story.

It's been long enough that I just don't see the characters going back and forth in the future, unless through other means (using the Skull Knight's sword technique, or maybe the World Tree's branches).

By temporarily I mean until Casca is able to stand on her own and follow her own decisions, after being treated by the KoFS and spending enough time there to recover and reach that point. She would obviously leave to go after Guts soon enough. From there we could see some little adventures from herself, while re-gaining her fighting prowess, resourcefulness and other abilities she used to possess

Having another narrative showing Casca on her own, following in Guts' steps shortly after he left on his own? Honestly I just don't find it very likely.

I also imagine that for Guts to leave Casca again it will be for a very good reason.

She would have to tell him to, I can't see any other way.

Regardless of Guts staying with Casca or leaving her to do his own things, I think the story will reach a point where vengeance against Griffith won't be the only or even the biggest motivator for the inevitable conflict between them. I imagine that with story progression things will reach a point where, regardless of personal reasons, Griffith will need to be stopped and Guts will be the only one who could do that (with help along the way).

Of course, that's been my expectation for many years.

Absolutely, I would like even more if we could see a conflict like that without Elfhelm's necessary involvement. That would happen later on in the story I guess. Elfhelm just seems closest we could see of such a scenario happening.

Well it's not like the elves don't even have to be involved at all, they could very well offer all kinds of support (not the least of which being healing), but I find it rather reductive to imagine that there must be a direct armed conflict between Falconia and Elfhelm, taking the form of either Elfhelm being assaulted by an entire army of apostles or Elfhelm sending its supposed troops against Falconia.

To me it's pretty clear that this is going to be an asymmetrical conflict, where one side (the God Hand's) is incommensurably overpowered compared to the other (Guts & his allies). That's how the story's always been so far, and if anything the more it goes, the closer the God Hand is to win. Besides, we already saw a giant battle that opposed Griffith's forces to an extremely formidable enemy. That enemy was annihilated despite having superior numbers, despite also having magical forces. And now Griffith has Falconia, which from the outside seems rather impregnable, and he has the numbers (all those people flocking to it), and his kindred are probably now able to lend support.

So while I think it's a given that Guts will get to fight something on Skellig, I find it simplistic to picture what's left of the story as Falconia vs Elfhelm, as if those were two opposing forces of similar strength. I've rather always pictured it as a personal time for him (and the others in the group), a time of introspection. Recuperating, bringing Casca back, fighting his inner demons (the Beast of Darkness), etc. They can learn more about the world, about what's happening, about what's to come and what must be done to stop it. There will be an impetus for Guts to go back out there and face Griffith (and for the others to accompany him), that's obvious. I just don't think it'll be "as a mercenary among Elfhelm's armies because otherwise the Elf King won't heal Casca".

wouldn't the Godhand be unable to manifest admidst a Elf sanctuary? From my understanding of elves and pixies any place they take up residence acts as like a barrier that evil or negative entities can not tresspass on. It is like they leave a inprint on places they used to live. Used to live. Would an apostle or other evil being be able to step foot in an area with a high concentration of elves that are physically living be much stronger then a place they used to dwell? Or does this only apply to low level  evil spirits?

We know that former elf dwellings can ward off lower evil beings like incubi or specters, yes. I don't believe apostles would be prevented from attacking, however. That being said, Elfhelm is very likely warded off against evil, as it was somewhat hinted in the story. And with all the powerful beings living in there (the King of the Flower Storm, other elves or astral beings, magic users), it's not unreasonable to think that it might just not be possible for apostles or even for a member of the God Hand to assault the place. For example, apostles could only cross into Flora's domain because her power had weakened, as she remarked when it happened.

Also I thought God Hand could only manefest in areas where they have a high level of negative influence, like Slan during the orgy scene during the conviction arc. I do not think there would be any influence in elfhelm for them to manefest there.

In case you haven't noticed, things have changed a lot since the Conviction arc. You should re-read volume 34, especially episode 306.

It's possible that she might have been able to ward them off in her best days.

She comments on it directly, so I'd say it's more than a possibility.

And the most curious, though I'm not sure if those were actually real elves at that point, was during the Lost Children chapter (or arc?), where in a close tree (or even the same) where Rochine was settled with her fake elves, Puc was able to see a group of what seemed to be the real deal passing by (piskies just like him). I'm not sure if they were real or what Puc was seeing was some kind of memory from the place when piskies used to inhabit that region.

It's Lost children chapter, and those were indeed a "memory" of what had been. Puck later tells Rochine as much. The character's name is "Puck", by the way.

If they were, we could have an awkward but very ironic situation (perhaps that was the point) where Rochine as an apostle was completely oblivious to their presence, while playing elf queen.

What's sad is that had the elves not left that place, she would have likely not become an apostle.

At the time Piskies or Elves in general really deserved their reputation as mere legends, much like most if not all the astral creatures we are seeing in Fantasia.

Elves are said to have left their former habitats for some unknown reason. Much like the fact magic had become less and less known (and so less employed), we that there had been a gradual decline in the astral presence in the world in general, to the point where it had almost disappeared. Then it was brought back in full force all at once. Part of the Idea of Evil's master plan? Perhaps.

Griffith/Femto's incarnation

Femto's incarnation. To incarnate means to receive a fleshly body, so that describes the process by which Femto, a pure spirit, received a physical body (which so happens to be an exact copy of his former human body).

You're missing the point. Whether Elfhelm possesses an "official army" or not isn't important to me. What's important to me is whether or not the KoFS recognizes Guts' value as a warrior, capable of fighting Apostles should his people ever come under attack by Griffith's Apostle Army. It's a matter of the KoFS' ability to make decision based on his own tactical soundness, and not an attempt at saying: "Yes, the KoFS does possess an organized military army."

No, I don't think I am. You're fundamentally misrepresenting the elves here by assuming that the King of the Flower Storm will strong-arm Guts into fighting for him by otherwise refusing to heal Casca, and that he plans to mount a preemptive military offensive on Falconia using an army. That the King will recognize Guts' value as a warrior I certainly don't doubt. Who wouldn't? But I doubt he's concerned with simply fighting apostles.

So he's an ex-Kushan soldier. Whether he fought against the BoTH at some point I don't know, but the point of what I said about who Griffith allows into his army and city remains the same.

I'm not trying to compare them.

Well aren't you comparing them right now? What was your point then? Daiba's laying low because he wants to, we don't know anything more than that. You're just drawing assumptions from it as if he would obviously join up with Griffith if he could, even though he was completely devoted to Ganishka before that. That just seems to be assuming a lot to me.

According to what you just said that mystery has already been solved. Am I to take what it says in the glossary as truth or what you say about Rakshas as truth? It's a hard choice to make as you're an admin and I wouldn't doubt you had a hand in putting that glossary together.

I'm sorry, do you really need to me to confirm to you that Rakshas is an apostle? And what's got the glossary to do with this? He's a mysterious apostle, sure. All secretive and sneaky. The point was that comparing him to Daiba is ridiculous.

I was pointing out the difference between creatures that pose a threat to humans and beings who pose a threat to Griffith himself.

The Cockatrice can't use magic. He sent a cavalry led by Raban and one Apostle to help, most likely in the event that things go south, which they did.

Raban and his men were sent to rescue the refugees from trolls. They clearly weren't aware of the Cockatrice's presence, nor was Irvine sent in with them as far as we know. He intervened on his own, and from his dialogue it seems he was out in the woods on his own agenda.

A witch can use magic.

A witch isn't an astral being. It's a human who's learned how to use magic. Comparing Flora to trolls or to a Cockatrice is ridiculous to begin with.

Flora, after dying, came back as an ascended being and summoned a wall of flames that blocked Zodd and Grunbeld's path to Guts and co. Her power, imo will go beyond this because while she did ascend onto the Astral Plane, that plane has been merged with the physical, meaning she is likely alive and well somewhere. In this regard, killing her while she was still human was mistake, because it gives her more time to acclimate to becoming an Astral Plane and control her powers.

[...] I assume killing Flora to be only the first step. That's an assumption.

Flora showed up in spiritual form after dying. However as far as we know, she's gone. Like Walter said, the most I expect to ever see of her again is through a dream of Schierke's or something of the sort (which is what Flora hinted at herself). But she did also say that she had lived too long, and it was time for her to go and all that. In short, she is dead and if she still exists in some form it is beyond the physical world. Now, you mention the merging of the worlds, but it's not like everything spiritual is now hanging around. As you know, the astral world is composed of many layers, and it's clear that not everything was brought forth. For example, the spirits Schierke call upon to assist her still reside in unreachable places.

Anyway, you're saying killing Flora was the first step of a campaign to rid the world of the magic users that would pose a threat to Griffith, not really taking into account that Flora wasn't just any magic user (close friend of the Skull Knight, has at least been around for centuries). But you're also saying that the merging of the worlds was done so that all magic users could be killed (only magic users have been human so far, so that wasn't necessary), but you're saying too that killing Flora was a mistake, for she's now back in the world and even more powerful than before. And wait, what is she? An "Astral Plane"? Where is that coming from? That's meaningless. Anyhow, it all seems pretty contradictory to me.

It hasn't been depicted as being anything other than an Elf City. My "assumption" that there's an army there is hypothetical, and if there was one, narrowing it down to piskies:  becomes ridiculous when we're talking about the King of Elves. If he's the King of Elves it means he rules over all elves of multiple species, meaning there are going to be more than just tiny fellas like Puck and Ivalera running around.

Could you please describe all the other types of elves to me? The ones that would compromise the bulk of the army, if possible.

The fact that Elfhelm is written about in grimoires, magical textbooks written by magic users, makes me believe that some magic users like witches might have been there before and/or still live there to this day. If they live in peace and harmony then I'd imagine they're capable of working together to defend themselves if they ever came under attack by anyone or anything of significant power.

Well yeah, that's pretty much a sure thing. We know there have been and most likely still are magic users over there, and they probably can defend themselves if need be. But there's a question of scale here. Defending a safe haven against a specific threat and going to war against the God Hand/Falconia are two very different things.

How does helping Guts work in her favor?

How does helping Guts has ever served in Puck's favor?

Because it makes it easier for him to kill all the other people with powers on par with Flora's who may have been out of his reach beforehand. People like the King of The Flowerstorm.

How does it make things easier? Flora wasn't out of reach, and since Guts had been traveling to Elfhelm before the merging of the worlds took place, we know also it wasn't any more or less out of reach than it is now.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 04:54:13 PM »
I kind of do not want a confrontation to happen between the two, at least not right away. I would like to see elfhelm arc to concentrate on the emotional issues concerning Guts and his party and the changing dynamics. I want the issue with Casca to be tackled head on and the repercussions  of her "healing" and her issues to take center stage in elfhelm. And then tackle Guts issues with his inner beast and his new relationship with Casca and the dynamics of the Guts new group to be thoroughly explored becfore we get into any issues of a confrontation between Falconia and Elfhelm. I want a major chunk of the elfhelm arc to be devoted to just character focus and exploration. I am going to be annoyed if the Casca Guts Farnese and flower storm King thing gets dragged out further once they are there due to military talk and confrontation.

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 10:23:10 PM »
I kind of do not want a confrontation to happen between the two, at least not right away. I would like to see elfhelm arc to concentrate on the emotional issues concerning Guts and his party and the changing dynamics. I want the issue with Casca to be tackled head on and the repercussions  of her "healing" and her issues to take center stage in elfhelm. And then tackle Guts issues with his inner beast and his new relationship with Casca and the dynamics of the Guts new group to be thoroughly explored becfore we get into any issues of a confrontation between Falconia and Elfhelm. I want a major chunk of the elfhelm arc to be devoted to just character focus and exploration. I am going to be annoyed if the Casca Guts Farnese and flower storm King thing gets dragged out further once they are there due to military talk and confrontation.

I myself like this idea a lot as well. Berserk has already so much action that a nice break and character development chapter would be very welcome. Or maybe we might simply have both. A nice long enough break followed by a preemptive invasion. Having read the whole discussion about up till now, I agree with the idea that Elfhelm will not be strong enough to face the might of Falconia. They will need a bigger army to face Griffith, which brings me back to a very recent post I just put up on the episode 334 discussion which says:

Quote
I always wondered if Miura was going to tackle the theme of nations? We know that people from all over the world are coming to join Falconia being that it is the one and only safe haven from monsters. People are being ejected from their homes and lives to go live in the big city. Not everyone is going to like this...or at least I think they won't? What if Griffith is trying to control everyone by simply making everyone immigrate to his massive kingdom. Using the monsters as an excuse. Heck, he might even be controlling some of those monsters to attack villages and cities in order to force them to take refuge in Falconia. Falconia might simply be a very nice place that keeps the population blind and in check. People are happy and do not ask questions.

Guts and his crew might eventually become part of a rebel alliance brought together by a bunch of other nations who do not wish to leave their homes in order to live in some other far off land. A bunch of nations coming together in order to fight back the monsters and Griffith's all encompassing empire.

This to me seems possible because as we all know, Guts and his small gang cannot defeat Griffith as he is now. They will need an alliance of some sort. Elf Island being that first alliance, then moving on to other places in the world and rallying those who wish to fight for their independence, land, and country. Guts has become a leader and role model, and I could imagine him becoming that figurehead that everyone follows...kind of like how Griffith was back in the Golden Age Arc.

Elfhelm will not be strong enough and they will need more men. I doubt monsters will be able to ally with Guts and the King of the Flower Storm to take down Griffith because aren't monsters controlled mostly by the Godhand...or is that only for Apostles? I do think though that the final confrontation will be Griffith's indoctrinated people and apostles VERSUS Guts and co., Skullknight, Elfhelm and other nations/national minorities rallied to the cause.  I can't imagine Guts winning any other way. Also, do you guys think Guts can rally monsters and beasts to fight for his cause? Is it possible?

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2014, 10:54:28 PM »
Also, do you guys think Guts can rally monsters and beasts to fight for his cause? Is it possible?

Well I could see some magic users bringing their familiars with them but an army of beasts and monsters that Guts lead? Not sure...

Offline Patou244

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 05:57:01 AM »
I kind of do not want a confrontation to happen between the two, at least not right away. I would like to see elfhelm arc to concentrate on the emotional issues concerning Guts and his party and the changing dynamics. I want the issue with Casca to be tackled head on and the repercussions  of her "healing" and her issues to take center stage in elfhelm. And then tackle Guts issues with his inner beast and his new relationship with Casca and the dynamics of the Guts new group to be thoroughly explored becfore we get into any issues of a confrontation between Falconia and Elfhelm. I want a major chunk of the elfhelm arc to be devoted to just character focus and exploration. I am going to be annoyed if the Casca Guts Farnese and flower storm King thing gets dragged out further once they are there due to military talk and confrontation.

THIS! I definitely want to see all this addressed before we get into any kind of confrontation. I really want to see a Casca character arc that's for sure.

Casca from Berserk. May 2014 be the year Casca fans get to see a return of her true self, the kickass warrior and leader of the Hawks/Falcons.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2014, 07:37:20 AM »
I agree with the idea that Elfhelm will not be strong enough to face the might of Falconia. They will need a bigger army to face Griffith

I think people really ought to consider the fact that the elves might also just not want to get themselves involved in a direct armed conflict with the God Hand, Falconia or apostles.

I doubt monsters will be able to ally with Guts and the King of the Flower Storm to take down Griffith because aren't monsters controlled mostly by the Godhand...or is that only for Apostles?

Apostles serve the God Hand willingly, they are not controlled. "Monsters", such as trolls or ogres, are supposed to be like animals, just following their instinct. However we've seen that Slan could not just control but also create them in the Qliphoth.

I do think though that the final confrontation will be Griffith's indoctrinated people and apostles VERSUS Guts and co., Skullknight, Elfhelm and other nations/national minorities rallied to the cause.  I can't imagine Guts winning any other way.

Maybe Guts will simply not have to fight the entire world before getting to Griffith.

Also, do you guys think Guts can rally monsters and beasts to fight for his cause? Is it possible?

Rallying trolls and hydras? I don't think so. Nor do I think he's meant to be some grand army commander.

Offline rashikal

Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2014, 10:43:59 PM »
Guys, go back to volume 25. Remember the Spirit Kings that Schierke summons to protect the village from the trolls? I think they may be important to the plot. Because right now it seems like Griffith's army is too powerful, but there is lots of stuff on the Spiritual side that can be extremely powerful.

Offline Rupert Sinclair

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2014, 11:24:03 PM »
Guys, go back to volume 25. Remember the Spirit Kings that Schierke summons to protect the village from the trolls?

We've also seen them recently when Farnese summoned them in volume 36 to protect the ship and crew from the Sea God.   :slan:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Falconia vs Elfhelm: Will it happen?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2014, 09:08:59 AM »
Guys, go back to volume 25. Remember the Spirit Kings that Schierke summons to protect the village from the trolls? I think they may be important to the plot.

Whoa! How perspicacious! :isidro:

Because right now it seems like Griffith's army is too powerful, but there is lots of stuff on the Spiritual side that can be extremely powerful.

That there exists powerful astral entities is a given, however there's quite a step between casting the barrier of the four cardinal points to protect a position and hypothetically harnessing the four elemental kings' power to destroy Griffith's armies (especially since the barrier wouldn't be effective at stopping humans or apostles). In any case, it doesn't impact what's been discussed in this thread so far.