Author Topic: God in berserk  (Read 5259 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Salem

God in berserk
« on: August 01, 2014, 04:27:35 PM »
Has anyone formulated what would happen if Guts somehow with the help of schierke or some unknown somehow renders the god of berserk helpless or dead.  Though the chapter was never published with it and Griffith,  this approach is possible, not likely.  It would render the godhand (theoretically) powerless.  Just some food for thought.  Surely we haven't seen the end of that astral being.

Offline Delta Phi

  • Sylph Sword
  • Falconian
  • Of the Nexus
  • *****
  • Posts: 655
  • Karma: 83
  • Gender: Male
  • Grail Serpico!
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 04:46:25 PM »
The way that the IoE explains it's creation implies that it came after Creation (big C) as a result of mankind's dark emotions, and collective desire for a higher power. It stands to reason that if the world and mankind existent prior to the IoE that it could exist just fine after. However, even if the IoE was "defeated" what's to stop man from creating another?

It seems to me that the only way to defeat the IoE would be for man to somehow eliminate the dark feelings that they produce and to not desire a being to weave their destiny.

Keep in mind, this is all taken from the removed episode (83) and shouldn't necessarily be considered canon as Miura could easily change the parameters of the IoE. As of right now, it seems nigh impossible to be rid of

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 04:58:21 PM »
For sure, its just predicting this series is really difficult.   I haven't heard anything about this subject.  Surely the "God" plans fate, so therefore the Godhand.  Guts just killed the seagod, though not as strange an entity.  I highly doubt such a scenario would play out, but thought I'd spew it on the boards and see if anyone had any ideas about the god of berserk.  Reminds me of the elder god from legacy of kain. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 05:09:40 PM by bandofthehawk »

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15860
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2014, 05:33:13 PM »
Has anyone formulated what would happen if Guts somehow with the help of schierke or some unknown somehow renders the god of berserk helpless or dead.  Though the chapter was never published with it and Griffith,  this approach is possible, not likely. 

I don't think it's very likely, or possible. How would Guts accomplish that, exactly? Drag the Dragon Slayer down to the Abyss?

Quote
It would render the godhand (theoretically) powerless.

Why? The God Hand were formed from the power of the Vortex of Souls (We see this happening at the end of Episode 83).

Quote
Surely we haven't seen the end of that astral being.

In our 2009 interview with Miura,  he said: "I myself donít know if the Idea of Evil will show up again in the manga or not." Also, nitpicking, but calling it an astral being isn't totally proper, since it resides in the abyss, within the realm of Ideas, the deepest (and darkest) of the dimensions in Berserk. Astral beings are those like the hydra, unicorn, troll, etc.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2014, 05:39:59 PM »
Mass assumption on my part.  Powerless god hand only if they are brought into existence,  manifest destiny by the god.  And sure, why not.  Outside death gives so many options.  Run that slayer through every crevice.  All with a grain of salt.  I read that article before,  but who knows if miura has formulated an end game. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 05:57:49 PM by bandofthehawk »

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2014, 06:30:08 PM »
Has anyone formulated what would happen if Guts somehow with the help of schierke or some unknown somehow renders the god of berserk helpless or dead.

I fail to see how such a thing might come to pass. The Idea of Evil is the embodiment of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness. Anyway, hypothetically assuming the Idea of Evil suddenly ceased to be, it's doubtful anything would immediately change. It mostly works with small changes over long periods of time.

Though the chapter was never published with it and Griffith

It is an episode, not a chapter. And it was actually published in Young Animal, but excluded from the tankŰbon.

It would render the godhand (theoretically) powerless.

There is nothing in the manga that might lead one to think so.

Surely we haven't seen the end of that astral being.

Not an astral being, like Walter said. And actually, there's really no assurance that we'll see it again. If anything, the fact Miura felt free to reuse the design of the heart with eyes for the Sea God makes me view episode 83 as less canon than ever.

It seems to me that the only way to defeat the IoE would be for man to somehow eliminate the dark feelings that they produce and to not desire a being to weave their destiny.

What people desire or not is of no consequence at this point, and really, eliminating the "dark feelings" of humanity does not seem very credible. Furthermore, the Idea of Evil dwells close to the Vortex of Souls, which is a concentration of evil human souls. How do you get rid of that?

Surely the "God" plans fate, so therefore the Godhand.

The Idea of Evil achieves its goals by manipulating the world in small ways in order to lead to certain desired events through the principle of causality. It's not as simple as "planning fate".

Powerless god hand only if they are brought into existence,  manifest destiny by the god.

Each member of the God Hand was carefully groomed by the Idea of Evil, and they definitely owe it their power, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its nonexistence would nullify said power. The Idea of Evil is essentially just a consciousness that a part of the Ideal world developed. Even if that consciousness was gone, nothing says that the power itself would not remain.

And sure, why not.  Outside death gives so many options.

Guts does not exist "outside of death". That makes no sense. And he doesn't exist "outside of fate" either, before you say it. It seems that you've been reading some pretty bad translations. You should refer yourself to Dark Horse's stuff.

Run that slayer through every crevice.

The Dragon Slayer is a physical object. The Idea of Evil exists on a conceptual level and embodies the dark side present in every human, even Guts. Slashing it with a sword just isn't an option.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2014, 06:40:31 PM »
Lol man, u are being way too nitpicky.  Think I'll stay off this site.  I didn't know you had all the answers to the story.  I ask for opinions and all you've done is scrutinize.  Nice people.  You 2 have made me picture that wow guy from make love not war craft from southpark. 

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2014, 06:42:30 PM »
You wanted answers, you got them. Sorry they weren't those you wanted.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 06:43:21 PM »
Lol. Opinions.  You have given me opinions fine sir.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 06:49:31 PM »
Lol. Opinions.  You have given me opinions fine sir.

As a matter of fact, I've mostly listed facts in my post, straight from the manga.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 06:53:07 PM »
You strike me as someone with no sense of humor.  However, could you assume to formulate your own idea about the idea of god and how it could maifest itself again, assuming it did?  Thats what I'm trying to ask.  Not a disection.  I have every dark horse volume btw.  Never heard outside death?  I mean that guts might defy fate.  Its hinted.  If not whats the point of the story as it concludes?  Cmon.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 07:08:39 PM by bandofthehawk »

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 07:10:41 PM »
You strike me as someone with no sense of humor. However, could you assume to formulate your own idea about the idea of god and how it could maifest itself again, assuming it did?  Thats what I'm trying to ask.  Not a disection.

1) Oh, if only you knew what you strike me as!
2) It's not the "Idea of God", it's the "Idea of Evil". The word "Idea" refers to the Platonic concept. It is the embodiment, the source of evil.
3) You actually never asked how the Idea of Evil would manifest itself, if it were to appear again in the series. What you asked was this: "Has anyone formulated what would happen if Guts somehow with the help of schierke or some unknown somehow renders the god of berserk helpless or dead." And I answered it.
4) I took the time to respond to you because you clearly seemed mistaken about a certain number of concepts related to your question. It's really just your loss if you can't appreciate my effort, but either way, you don't get to decide what you kind of response you get from me or from anybody else.

So now, as for your actual question: like I mentioned in my first post, the fact Miura's reused the IoE's design for the Sea God's heart makes me doubt whether we'll see it again in a way similar to that shown in episode 83. If it were to be featured again, which would delight me beyond words, I'd imagine it would remain relatively low key and mysterious, not unlike what we got at the end of episode 82. I don't picture a grand fight between Guts and the Idea of Evil or anything of the sort.

I have every dark horse volume btw.  Never heard outside death?  I mean that guts might defy fate.  Its hinted.  If not whats the point of the story as it concludes?  Cmon.

Well you're not wording it correctly. Because he was branded during the Eclipse, Guts exists within the Interstice between the corporeal and the astral worlds. That allows him a small (very small) margin for influencing events at certain times. The Skull Knight, who also seems to share that trait, explained it to Guts through an analogy when talking about how what had happened during the Eclipse would ineluctably repeat itself at Albion. He said that the corporeal world is like the moon's shadow reflected on water, but that because of the Brand, Guts might not just be a shadow himself, but a fish creating ripples in the water (and so being able to distort, alter the reflection ever so slightly).

So yeah, it means that Guts could be able to alter events that were meant by the Idea of Evil to happen a certain way. In fact, as far as we know, Casca was meant to die in Albion, and her survival, due to his intervention, was an example of all this. However, you should also keep in mind that we've been repeatedly shown in the story that it's very hard to go against the Idea of Evil's plans. The most spectacular example of this happens in volume 34, when the Skull Knight, in trying to strike down Femto using a weapon he'd secretly devised, played right into his hand instead and was responsible for the advent of Falconia.

But to get back to the original point, Guts isn't "outside death". He is still very mortal and could be killed like any other man. He's just exceptionally tough and determined.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 07:17:28 PM »
Hey, thanks for answering and sorry for flipping you crap.  I wasnt trying to get at grand battle as a last resort and can't wait to see what happens.  You know, in 20 more years.   Did you create sk.net?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 07:53:25 PM by bandofthehawk »

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 07:38:49 PM »
Hey, thanks for answering and sorry for flipping you crap.  I wasnt trying to get at grand battle as a last resort and can't wait to see what happens.  You know, in 20 more years.

No problem. Anyway, there are more threads (old ones) out there where we've talked about this, in case you're interested. You'll have to search for them though.

Honestly the Idea of Evil has always been super exciting to me because it feels almost like a secret, you know? Miura's never prominently shown it again since volume 13, but he has hinted at its existence a couple times and it's just awesome to know that it's out there hidden away, plotting from behind the scenes.

The first reference is the episode title of the last three episodes of volume 20, which are called "Shadow of Idea". It's in those episodes that the tower collapses in the shape of a hand, that a giant, fiery Brand forms on the ground as the people get massively possessed by specters and decimated, that Casca is brought to be burned at the stake, and that the Demon Child, Guts and Casca's son, is snatched by the Beherit Apostle at it lays dying and taken within it to be used as Femto's new body. All those are incredibly unlikely events, but and so we know they happen because they were planned by a superior entity.

The second reference is in volume 24, as Flora explains to Guts what beherits are. She'd mentioned the abyss before during the meal, and alluded to something being there. Regarding the beherit, she tells Guts that by itself, it is just a stone, but that it is forever tied to its true master, the one from which it came... And we know who that is.

Did you create sk.net?

Walter did, I came in later (late 2002).

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2014, 07:45:03 PM »
Off topic, do you have any thought as to how the series might end for our main characters?  I ask because you seem articulate and maybe a slight douche, but I'll take it.   :ubik:  No matter what I say you'll put it better, lol.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 07:55:11 PM by bandofthehawk »

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2014, 07:58:57 PM »
Off topic, do you have any thought as to how the series might end for our main characters?

That's a tall order man, honestly at this point it's just impossible to tell. One thing I'll say is that I'm certain Guts will triumph eventually, but at what cost, I can't begin to guess. I believe Casca (and his friends)'s support will prove to be crucial for him in the end, and that their son will be the key to defeating Griffith. I also believe that the fact Griffith and the boy are joined will be the cause of tremendous emotional turmoil for both the characters and the readers.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2014, 08:13:22 PM »
Well thats as far as I make it without branching every direction.  Love this story more than any other.  Have a good one.

Offline CrimsonBehelit216

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2014, 12:33:49 AM »
Even if Miura phased out The Idea of Evil as non-cannon, the God Hand do mention there being a god, if I am not mistaken. Assuming if Miura ever does present the god of Berserk to us again, I wonder if it will be different than the Idea of Evil, perhaps more anthropomorphic in some way like the God Hand.

Just curious... does anyone know if the elemental kings are higher up in the astral food chain than the God Hand or the Idea of Evil itself?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2014, 01:12:55 PM »
Even if Miura phased out The Idea of Evil as non-cannon, the God Hand do mention there being a god, if I am not mistaken.

The Idea of Evil is still canon, it's just that episode 83, which is our main source of information on it, was removed from the story. But we still get a shot of it at the end of episode 82, and it's still subtly referenced at various points in the story.

Just curious... does anyone know if the elemental kings are higher up in the astral food chain than the God Hand or the Idea of Evil itself?

They have not been directly compared to one another, and it's difficult to equate them since they are fundamentally different in nature.

Offline CrimsonBehelit216

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2014, 10:59:41 PM »
Ah you're right. That's good to know! I was worried that Miura might have decided to revamp the concept of God, since he seems to enjoy surprising his readers and so many of his fans have read the lost chapter.

Offline Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15860
  • Karma: 463
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2014, 11:05:42 PM »
Ah you're right. That's good to know! I was worried that Miura might have decided to revamp the concept of God, since he seems to enjoy surprising his readers and so many of his fans have read the lost chapter.

Here's what Miura said in our interview with him in 2009: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=9513.msg166308#msg166308):

Q9: Can we have some more details on why Episode 83 was left out of the collected volume? Do you consider the events in the episode to be canon? Can we expect to see or hear from the Idea of Evil again before the end of the series?

"Itís because I wanted Berserk's world to be revealed just that far, not any more than that. The appearance of god in the manga conclusively determines its range. I thought that might limit the freedom of the story development. I myself donít know if the Idea of Evil will show up again in the manga or not."
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Benin

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2014, 08:20:57 PM »
If the IOE was to be implemented into the story again for whatever reasons, it might be like Satan is interpreted.

Constantly there in its designs and 'ideals', a mere presence through emotions or entities. Revealing itself in actions from mortal and astral beings. Shaping the world through its own 'sin' and temptations. Lurking in the shadows allowing 'minions' to do its 'bidding'.

Funny how its an idea and being called the 'Idea of Evil'. Interesting indeed...

Kind a perverse 'God' with Griffith looking like a fallen angel retaining armor from its glory days in heaven/golden age and weaving its pleasant view to draw in the naive. Being sinister and beautiful and the same time.

Apostles well are explanatory...

I don't think you can call it God, but some manifestation that was born into the world when say elementals, entities and beings were formed during the creation of the Berserk earth/world, whereupon it was the mutant gene, corrupt cell in that creation.

I ramble on but gods are seen to be something mortals call things they cannot explain or have some sense of grandiose scope or 'power'.

Like the 4 spirit 'gods' Schierke calls upon.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18399
  • Karma: 624
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: God in berserk
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2014, 08:40:59 PM »
If the IOE was to be implemented into the story again for whatever reasons, it might be like Satan is interpreted.

I don't find that very likely... If anything, a comparison to the themes of Abrahamic religions would be much more pertinent with Griffith's role as a false savior.

Funny how its an idea and being called the 'Idea of Evil'. Interesting indeed...

Its name is a reference to Plato, as was mentioned above. The word "idea" is Greek in this context, not English. The meaning of the name in Japanese is "The Source of Evil".

Kind a perverse 'God' with Griffith looking like a fallen angel retaining armor from its glory days in heaven/golden age and weaving its pleasant view to draw in the naive. Being sinister and beautiful and the same time.

Griffith doesn't actually look fallen at all, that's the catch.

I don't think you can call it God, but some manifestation that was born into the world when say elementals, entities and beings were formed during the creation of the Berserk earth/world, whereupon it was the mutant gene, corrupt cell in that creation.

Well you called it a God two sentences ago... Anyway, from what we know, what you suggest isn't possible. The Idea of Evil was created by Man, and it comes from mankind. It wasn't formed during the creation of the Berserk universe as a sort of elemental (it isn't tied to an element, and could even be argued to be anti-elemental) or primeval entity.

Like the 4 spirit 'gods' Schierke calls upon.

They aren't called gods but kings.

Offline Benin

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2014, 08:50:22 PM »
Darn it all.  :judo:

Thanks for the heads up.

Offline Salem

Re: God in berserk
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2014, 08:55:43 PM »
Aaz has done so much homework everyone's ideas become murdered.