Author Topic: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character  (Read 9774 times)

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Offline RedDevilFC

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Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« on: December 31, 2007, 02:14:53 AM »
I guess since a couple of members cried too much about my last topic on Serpico and Farnese, I'll mention a character I felt was believable, unique, and killed off too soon; Judeau. 

I'm not sure why he was so written off so early; Miura could have put him in the same group of Hawks as Rickert, or even replaced Rickert with Judeau as a sacrifice during the Festival.  As a member of Guts's party, Judeau would be a better fit than arguably any present protagonist, not to mention that any role filled by Rickert could be handled by Judeau.  Even as a completely neutral character, his relationship with Guts, Casca, and Griffith would offer some quality literary options. 

Focus

What do the rest of you think?  Was his death necessary as a reintroduction to the Black Swordsman arc?  Would he have been useless baggage for Guts and the later continuation of the series?  Is Rickert a more appropriate character to have saved?  Or should Judeau have been kept?  Should Rickert and Judeau both have been saved, or would have lessened the intensity of the Incarnation of the Femto? 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 02:30:50 AM by RedDevilFC »

Offline Walter

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 02:31:10 AM »

Jodo didn't die. Guts and co. just haven't made it to Elfhelm yet. :judo:

Sure, he's a fan favorite character, but he served his role and it was time to move on after the Eclipse. His and other Hawks' deaths formed a huge impact that will resound for the rest of the series. To have him live would be pretty anticlimactic.

PS: Puella's fanfic about what happens with Judo after his death. This was written waay back, even before we knew of Hanafubuku Ou, but it's still great and manages to hit all the right notes for the scene.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Skorne

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 02:34:57 AM »
...

...

...

I was just utterly shocked by that statement and picture....  and i seriously don't know what happened to my world. :isidro:

edit:  okay i seriously missed the fanfic statement,...don't know how, but i just did.  anywho... i'm off to read that fanfic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:01:51 AM by Skorne »

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 02:45:41 AM »

Sure, he's a fan favorite character, but he served his role and it was time to move on after the Eclipse. His and other Hawks' deaths formed a huge impact that will resound for the rest of the series. To have him live would be pretty anticlimactic.


But you could say the same about Rickert...and yet, he lived.  Out of all the original Hawk members; Corkus, Pippin, Rickert, Judeau, Gaston, Nichol, etc., Judeau had the most to offer for the rest of the series.  Which is why I can understand killing off all of them, killing off everyone except for Judeau, or killing off everyone except for Judeau and Rickert, but not what was done in the series. 

I anticipate a common response to this is going to be "it increased the level of tragedy of that episode", and while true, would it have been substantially more cheerful if Pippin, Corkus, Gaston, Rickert, and everyone else had been killed instead, with Casca raped as before? 

Offline Walter

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 02:51:37 AM »
Yeah, well, even if you anticipate my response, it won't change my answer  :carcus:

Like I said, don't you think it gives their deaths more impact for the series since each member had planned for a future AFTER the Hawks? Sure, it sucks that they died, and in another series, maybe they'd survive, but that section of Berserk is set up to be a tragedy, and in that it succeeds marvelously. To change even a piece would be ludicrous.
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 02:55:13 AM »

Like I said, don't you think it gives their deaths more impact for the series since each member had planned for a future AFTER the Hawks? Sure, it sucks that they died, and in another series, maybe they'd survive, but that section of Berserk is set up to be a tragedy, and in that it succeeds marvelously. To change even a piece would be ludicrous.

I'm fine with the deaths, but why save Rickert, then?  His death would have made that scene even MORE tragic and horrific, since he was a young kid who never got to truly experience life and try to find his own niche in the world. 

Edit

I realize a lot of this sounds as if I'm criticizing Miura, but I'm not.  It's just that I can either talk about the parts of the series I'm unclear about, or join in the collective cock-sucking of the author's absolute perfection and genius in everything, while making topics about "Sexiest Berserk Character, LOL!", filled with kindergarten idiocy. 

I think this forum has enough of the latter without my help. 

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 02:59:23 AM »
But you could say the same about Rickert...and yet, he lived.  Out of all the original Hawk members; Corkus, Pippin, Rickert, Judeau, Gaston, Nichol, etc., Judeau had the most to offer for the rest of the series.  Which is why I can understand killing off all of them, killing off everyone except for Judeau, or killing off everyone except for Judeau and Rickert, but not what was done in the series.

This is all opinion, but I'm sure most people would agree when I say that compared to Judeau, I didn't/don't give two shits about Rickert.  Judeau was a much more alive and vibrant character, so his death impacted  me the most, along with Pippin and Carcus. Also, Rickert was the youngest and had the most potential to adapt into what the story may have needed.  I can't see Judeau taking up Godo's hammer and learning the blacksmithing trade (which I suspect will play a vital role in the future).

Offline CnC

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 03:18:11 AM »
Oh lovely, yet another thread where we discuss your opinions.  Can't wait.

I'm not sure why he was so written off so early; Miura could have put him in the same group of Hawks as Rickert, or even replaced Rickert with Judeau as a sacrifice during the Festival.

Before falling into a "who do you like more, Rickert or Judo?"-type "debate", I would simply say it didn't happen so you might find trying to contact Miura and asking him why he had Judo killed more helpful.

  As a member of Guts's party, Judeau would be a better fit than arguably any present protagonist

Even Schierke?  Do we give Judo magical weapons in your alternate-scenario?  Ah well, your opinion is yours.  Pity it can never be backed up.

Focus

Judo's gone, man.  Sorry.  Focus on what?

What do the rest of you think?  Was his death necessary as a reintroduction to the Black Swordsman arc?  Would he have been useless baggage for Guts and the later continuation of the series?  Is Rickert a more appropriate character to have saved?  Or should Judeau have been kept?  Should Rickert and Judeau both have been saved, or would have lessened the intensity of the Incarnation of the Femto? 

Having he and Casca be the only survivors of the eclipse was deliberate, perhaps done to be more impactful.  Rickert wasn't present during the eclipse, but had he been there it's unlikely he would have survived, either.  So do the alternate story-lines (whee) you've created have Judo branded as well?

Judo is a fan favorite, but discussing whether or not you like the outcome of what happened is, once again, only your opinion. 

while making topics about "Sexiest Berserk Character, LOL!", filled with kindergarten idiocy. 

I think this forum has enough of the latter without my help. 

Well that would be the admin, who started that thread you deemed kindergarten idiocy.
I'm _so_ very glad you're here to declare how you feel about "stuff", btw.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 03:07:09 PM by CnC »
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Offline Uriel

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 03:56:45 AM »

This thread has now become the "Post Sappy Judeau fanart" thread.


Offline Walter

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2007, 03:57:24 AM »
It's just that I can either talk about the parts of the series I'm unclear about, or join in the collective cock-sucking of the author's absolute perfection and genius in everything, while making topics about "Sexiest Berserk Character, LOL!", filled with kindergarten idiocy. 

I think this forum has enough of the latter without my help. 
You know, I don't really get it. I, above anyone else so far, have shown you only patience and understanding. I even attempted to stave off most of the personal attacks against you, and what have you done so far? Well, you just made a crude generalization of my entire forum, and made fun of a comedy thread that I created. What a chummy lad, and a great way to make an entrance to a forum. I think some time in the quarantine will do you some good.

As James Earl Jones would say, "Ponder your fate on THE TREE(quarantine) OF WOE."
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Offline Uriel

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 04:03:58 AM »
Good ridance. This whole section is becoming a breeding ground recently...

I'm guessing he was a Man United fan. You can't blame him for being the way he is. That sort are birthed from a great height with a concrete slab being there for the delivery. [/premiereleaguebiggotry]

Offline yota821

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 04:06:46 AM »
Oh dear.  :judo:  I still have hope he'll warm up to this forum, though.  Despite it being tiring and frustrating arguing with him, I still had a good time reliving those moments in the manga through the discussion.   :serpico:
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 08:50:09 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 09:03:07 AM by Forest Wraith »
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Offline Badass mode ash

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2007, 02:07:45 PM »
This house is clean! :guts:

Offline Omega Tom Hanks

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2008, 01:07:02 AM »
I really was about to cry when Judeau died  :judo: he is still the character I miss the most post eclipse.
Why in God's name would I wanna keep writing about characters whose central preoccupation are weed and dick and fart jokes? I mean, ya gotta grow man. Don't you ever want anything more for yourself? I know this poor hapless son of a bitch does. I look into his sorry doe eyes and I just, I see a man crying out. He's crying out, "When Lord? When the fuck can your servant ditch this foul-mouthed little chucklehead to whom I am a constant victim of his folly, so much so that it prevents him from ever getting to kiss a girl! Fuck! When, Lord when? WHENS GONNA BE MY TIME?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2008, 12:36:57 AM »
I guess since a couple of members cried too much about my last topic on Serpico and Farnese, I'll mention a character I felt was believable, unique, and killed off too soon; Judeau.

Continuying on the same track, basically.

I'm not sure why he was so written off so early

Now just so it's clear, I'd like to remind everybody that Judo, like Pippin, Carcus, Gaston and the others, was created solely for the purpose of dying during the Occultation ceremony. The role of these characters in the story is to be a painful memory for Guts, and a reason for him to hate Griffith. They were doomed from their inception, and weren't meant to live further than they did. In fact, rather than having been killed off early, the truth of the matter is that the Hawks lived longer than originally planned. The flashback they appear in wasn't supposed to be that long at first.

Miura could have put him in the same group of Hawks as Rickert, or even replaced Rickert with Judeau as a sacrifice during the Festival.

But that wouldn't have made much sense. Rickert stayed behind because he was a kid and because he was wounded. Judo took an active part in Griffith's liberation and was important there, he had some of this greatest moments at that time (just like during the Eclipse). For your little scenario to be possible, he should have been wounded to a point where he just couldn't have come no matter what. He wasn't a kid like Rickert, and he was also a lieutenant as well as one of the best fighters around, so it'd have taken more than a broken arm to have him stay behind. In that context, what would have happened to him when the camp was attacked by the Count and Rosine's minions? Rickert escaped death then because he was sent to fetch water, like a good kid. It's not something the leader of the group would have been doing, and that leader would have been Judo had he been there. Not to mention that his wounds would have probably hindered his mobility, assuming he would have stayed behind because of them (the only possible reason). So yeah, he'd have been eaten along with the others. Now, even if we disregard this and assume he'd have lived for the sake of the argument, how would he have gotten out of the place? He was supposed to be wounded badly enough to warrant staying back, remember? It doesn't add up without changing a large part of the story, and changing it in worse.

As a member of Guts's party, Judeau would be a better fit than arguably any present protagonist, not to mention that any role filled by Rickert could be handled by Judeau.  Even as a completely neutral character, his relationship with Guts, Casca, and Griffith would offer some quality literary options.

Hahaha, how presumptuous of you to say so, and how wrong. I could already tell from your previous posts that you were the kind of guy to make such statements. On a side note, it's interesting to see how determined you are to have Judo replace Rickert, but insist that at the same time he be a part of Guts' group. Rickert isn't among Guts' new companion, you know. It's got to be one or the other. And I don't think Judo could fill his role in any way. What was the difference between Rickert and all the other members of the Band of the Hawk? It's that he was a kid, someone with his life ahead of him. Judo on the other hand was a character with a limited potential, just like Pippin, who I know you appreciate a lot. They were well exploited up to their deaths, but would have they had a place in the current story? I don't think so. Just like Rickert's role is that of a minor character now. The difference is that while Rickert, because of who and what he was/is, has been able to evolve into an interesting character (even putting aside his past), Judo couldn't have. Rickert stayed with Godot, Erica and Casca while Guts went on his quest of revenge, and he found a new life there. New goals, new ways to develop his interests: it was a fresh start for him. He was always a tinkerer, so becoming a blacksmith suited him well, probably better than being a mercenary. He found a love interest in Erica, of course, as well as his own way to cope with what had happened to his former comrades, a way differing from Guts'. He simply grew up, and got over those terrible events. And it was all relevant, interesting and thought-provoking for both Guts and the reader. But that's not surprising, I mean that's how the author made the story after all, and he made it well.

Judo, well, like I said his potential was limited. It's not that he was a bad character, but he wasn't made to survive the Eclipse in the first place. What would have he done if he had survived? Accompanied Guts on his journey of revenge? That's just not a possibility; you might as well change the whole story. And I doubt he'd have stayed behind with Godot and just looking over Casca either. Again, Guts could leave Rickert behind in spite of his protests because Rickert was a kid. Judo would have argued a lot more, told him about Casca, and hell, who knows, maybe Guts would have reconsidered his apostle hunt. In any case it doesn't matter, because it doesn't fit the story and wouldn't have been an interesting development. That's the deal here, that Judo doesn't fit in the story anymore at that point. He doesn't have his place. Rickert was left to struggle on his own and find a new life for himself, same for Guts. It would have been the same if Judo had survived, only unlike Rickert, he would have had nothing particularly interesting to turn to.

Rickert wasn't a fantastic warrior given his age, but he seems to have become a good blacksmith, and might very well be a great one someday. On the other hand, Judo was at his best when he followed Griffith. That was the pinnacle of his life, and his ultimate goal as well. In his own words, he was a man that could do everything decently, but that excelled at nothing. So he followed a man who he thought would achieve something big. Honestly, this pretty much makes him the ultimate sacrifice-type character. It's like he was made for the role. See what I mean? He was made for the role. What's he supposed to do in your alternate story? Go hunt apostles with Guts? That doesn't seem like something he'd want to do. Guts found a goal that he didn't have before in his quest for revenge, but Judo knew what he wanted, and that wasn't compatible with a nightmarish life of fighting monsters. Not to mention that Judo wasn't a magnificent fighter anyway, he wouldn't have been much help to Guts in that domain. Whatever he would have done, what's sure is that it probably wouldn't have been very interesting. At least not as much as what Rickert did. The quality literary options that you mention are inexistent. Judo's relationship with Casca reached its highest point when he died, and him living couldn't possibly equal this moment (rather, the reactions of Guts' current group to her when she comes back to herself will surely been very interesting). Judo's relationship with the new Griffith (the incarnation of Femto)? It'd either be a repeat of Guts' feelings, or of Rickert's, or a toned down mix of both. Nothing particularly interesting compared to what we have.

Now, about being a part of Guts' new band. Even putting aside all the rest, what use would Judo be? He wasn't a superb warrior, you know; his best moments were, again, during their rescue of Griffith and later on at the time of his death. I don't think it'd be very grand for him to be rivalling with Isidro as far as fighting goes. And other than that, there'd be nothing for him to do. Serpico fits the "guy that can take care of menial tasks" profile very well, and Farnese is more apt to take care of Casca (being a woman, finding the task rewarding, and not being secretly attracted to her), even though she had her failings. The others aren't even comparable. So you see, I can't really find an interest to Judo's presence with the group. He'd have no practical advantage over someone else. But most importantly, his potential for character development would be far lesser. Like precedently stated, Judo had already reached his maturity as a character when he was killed off, he was finite. He had had many experiences in life and knew what his capacities were and what he wanted to do. This would have made him an infinitely less interesting character to have around, regardless of the rest. Isidro, Serpico and Farnese are all still in the process of defining themselves, they're growing and changing, developing and acquiring skills, etc. And so, they're at their place in Guts' group, and Judo isn't.

So to answer your questions: Yes, Judo would have been a useless baggage for Guts and the continuation of the series, yes, Rickert is a more appropriate character to have saved, and yes, Judo's absence (necessary to his survival) during the Eclipse would have lessened its intensity. And it would also have lessened the greatness of the character, as his death was most definitely one of his greatest scenes, if not the greatest.

But you could say the same about Rickert...and yet, he lived.  Out of all the original Hawk members; Corkus, Pippin, Rickert, Judeau, Gaston, Nichol, etc., Judeau had the most to offer for the rest of the series.

Not at all, like previously explained. In fact, he was arguably one of those with the least to offer. Carcus' reaction had he survived would have been more interesting, and Pippin had more development potential, since he had received less focus during the Golden Age. But anyway, Rickert was the best possible choice.

Through your post you have overlooked another character that survived: Casca. She also had received a lot of focus up to that point, and though she was not as limited as Judo in terms of possible character development, she didn't really fit into the post-Eclipse picture as she was. Coincidently (not really), she happened to lose her memory, and stayed in a cave for years. Then she was reintroduced with a completely different focus and outlook on her character. The process isn't all that far from what Rickert underwent himself, and isn't something Judo could have gone through in a way at least equally interesting (or even very satisfying for you, I think). What it comes down to is that Judo was a good character, but that he was created for a specific purpose and nothing more. Having him remain after serving that purpose would have been unnatural and clumsy (and more than that, it would have negated his purpose, which is to be a painful memory for both Guts and the reader), and I think arguing otherwise is a proof that one is misunderstanding the author's intent.



Judo died for Guts' sins, so that we would understand them and forgive him (and hate Griffith like he does)

I anticipate a common response to this is going to be "it increased the level of tragedy of that episode", and while true, would it have been substantially more cheerful if Pippin, Corkus, Gaston, Rickert, and everyone else had been killed instead, with Casca raped as before?

Being cheerful or not is besides the point. It would have been less poignant and less good, that's what matters. Casca and Judo's desperate flight, leaving Pippin behind, and its subsequent failure make for some awesome scenes. It couldn't have worked with anybody else because it was tailor-made for Judo, and yes, this part of the story would have been substantially lessened without it.

I'm fine with the deaths, but why save Rickert, then?  His death would have made that scene even MORE tragic and horrific, since he was a young kid who never got to truly experience life and try to find his own niche in the world.

It's a simple matter of what is more interesting. Rickert dying would have definitely had a strong impact on the reader, but he wouldn't have put up a fight or lasted more than the time it'd have taken an apostle to reach him. Not a lot to do with that; it could have even felt repetitive when put next to Carcus and Gaston's deaths. Rather, his anguish after having nearly died, and all the developments he went through later on make for a much more interesting use of his character. All the others had got to experience life and had found their niche in the world, and we'd seen it. Now we've also seen some of Rickert's life and his choices, and it's interesting and makes for good uses in the story (I already talked about it in detail earlier). Simple as that.

making topics about "Sexiest Berserk Character, LOL!", filled with kindergarten idiocy.

Then again, none of the threads you have made so far have been qualitatively above the "Who is the sexiest girl?" one (in fact, you would be surprised to learn how similar the conversations in them have been). One could say that your contributions are merely a different kind of idiocy. A complacent, conceited kind.

This is all opinion, but I'm sure most people would agree when I say that compared to Judeau, I didn't/don't give two shits about Rickert.

Well, I at least don't agree with it. The reader doesn't have as much exposure to him than to Judo during the Golden Age arc, but personally I still cared for him at that point.

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2008, 01:03:01 AM »
Well, I at least don't agree with it. The reader doesn't have as much exposure to him than to Judo during the Golden Age arc, but personally I still cared for him at that point.

Perhaps I didn't convey my thoughts well enough, as I do care about Rickert's character.  It's just that, as you say, Judo's level of exposure at that point in the story made me feel for him more than Rickert.  If Rickert had been a little more fleshed out and died in the arms of the woman he loved, I probably would have felt just as much for him.

Offline pippin22

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2008, 03:02:59 AM »
I hope this goof doesn't try to argue with what Aazealh said.  That would be ridiculous.

Offline Bekul

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 04:43:43 AM »
I hope this goof doesn't try to argue with what Aazealh said.  That would be ridiculous.

Nonono - that would be awesome. Seriously. This kind of thing opens up understanding and breaks open assumptions to a fine degree of detail. In the example of the other thread he's famous for, his constant... refusal to look at what was pointed out to him, caused me, and I'm sure others, to look again at what they had assumed to be obvious with a more discerning eye.

Quote
In that context, what would have happened to him when the camp was attacked by the Count and Rosine's minions? Rickert escaped death then because he was sent to fetch water, like a good kid.

And, I'd just like to mention, for completeness sake, that it is very likely that it is only because Rickert was a child at that time that he survived. Judo, being an adult, wouldn't have been extended the same sympathy by Rosine that Rickert was - he'd have fought, and died, as the others did. It is only because Rickert was still a child that Rosine saw in him a person worth sparing. This also served to foreshadow the introduction of her character, a foreshadowing that again wouldn't have been possible had Judo been in Rickert's place.

(edited for second quote, and spelling)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 05:12:27 AM by Bekul »

Offline Oburi

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2008, 05:43:30 AM »
And, I'd just like to mention, for completeness sake, that it is very likely that it is only because Rickert was a child at that time that he survived. Judo, being an adult, wouldn't have been extended the same sympathy by Rosine that Rickert was - he'd have fought, and died, as the others did. It is only because Rickert was still a child that Rosine saw in him a person worth sparing. This also served to foreshadow the introduction of her character, a foreshadowing that again wouldn't have been possible had Judo been in Rickert's place.
(edited for second quote, and spelling)

I never thought of that. Is this true? I mean Skullknight did save Rickert from the minions :ganishka: just before they were about to attack him while Rosine watched. She was smiling too, all sadistic like. I think if SK hadn't been their, Rickert would have absolutely died.


Offline Ramen4ever

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2008, 06:23:53 AM »
I'm pretty sure Rickerts alive thanks to the Skullknight "another Well-Conceived Character"
Rochine didn't exactly spare him.. and although I can't verify it, I seem to recall that The Count was the closest apostle to Rickert.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2008, 12:39:49 PM »
And, I'd just like to mention, for completeness sake, that it is very likely that it is only because Rickert was a child at that time that he survived. Judo, being an adult, wouldn't have been extended the same sympathy by Rosine that Rickert was - he'd have fought, and died, as the others did. It is only because Rickert was still a child that Rosine saw in him a person worth sparing.

What are you talking about? Rosine ordered him killed, like the others. Besides, the Count was also there, like it was said (he arrived from behind so that he and the minions encircled Rickert). It's the Skull Knight that saved him.


Offline Ironhand

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 11:38:51 AM »
Thats right. Its not wise to make assumptions based on later (storyline wise) impressions of Rosine. That was later and in her territory and under her rules. The apostles were preparing for the eclipse and glorying in slaughter. Do you honestly think Rosine would have been able to stop them if they chose to? She probably would have been killed right along with poor Rickert. If it was Jill then she probably would have tried possibly, but life wasn't exactly important to her whether a child or not. If it was she probably wouldn't have had them fighting to the death in "mock" combat. She definately did not try to save Rickert and what does it tell you that Rickert would develop a phobia of elves from the incident.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 12:21:46 PM »
The apostles were preparing for the eclipse and glorying in slaughter. Do you honestly think Rosine would have been able to stop them if they chose to? She probably would have been killed right along with poor Rickert.

Well, not really. Rosine would probably have had trouble stopping the Count had he wished to eat Rickert, but I doubt he'd have killed her. Not wished to, nor been able to. Now about the bugs that are shown in the picture I posted, these guys aren't actual apostles but pseudo-apostles, and they're Rosine's servants. She created them from adult humans, and they can be seen defending the Misty Valley later on in the story (Guts fought and killed them all). So she actually could have stopped them, but again, as seen on the picture I posted, she in fact ordered them to kill Rickert. That's the meaning of her pointing toward the ground, she's indicating Rickert, and that obviously means she's telling them to kill him.

Offline Ironhand

Re: Judeau: A Well-Conceived Character
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 07:39:35 AM »
I agree with you in the scenario and I think no way in hell would Rosine care. I'm not quite sure on the what-if question though. Do apostles value their own that much? It doesn't seem like the Godhand cares much if they die so I doubt they would care if several killed each other so long as it doesn't interfere with their plans. The Skull Knight   :SK:got away with it because he is strong enough the rest were afraid of opposing him. If Rosine did the same thing personally I think her life would have been in danger. The rest of the bunch were caught up with bloodlust and I don't think anyone could have stood in their way even one of their own if the person / demon wasn't strong enough to make them fear for their lives. Rosine was tough, but I do not think she is strong enough to do that. She might be able to hold her own against the Baron (kindof doubt it but you never know), but she probably couldn't match a lot of them individually let alone in a group. I think the outcome. :chomp:

Anyhow, I think I've spent enough time with the trip to Fantasy Land. Never happened, never would have happened.