Author Topic: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)  (Read 17581 times)

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Offline Gobolatula

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Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« on: August 05, 2008, 09:32:24 PM »
It reminds me of Scott Evil telling Dr. Evil just to shoot Austin Powers when he has the chance.

The reincarnated Griffith was right in front of Guts (or near him) twice. He had the opportunity to just kill him right then and there. I mean, Guts is "The Black Swordsman," the guys who tons of apostles hate, because he's' been killing them and messing things up for them. Why wouldn't Griffith see Guts as a threat? Does he just think he's beneath him and not worth dealing with? I mean, Griffith sent his goons to kill Flora, even though she wasn't directly assaulting Griffith's army. Guts and his group are becoming stronger and stronger. There's no doubt in my mind that Griffith knows this. I mean, he was chilling on his horse looking at Guts after him and Zodd Falcon Punch'd Ganishka between the eyes. He's gotta know about the new armor and everything.

Is Griffith not killing Guts because perhaps there's a small part of him that yearns to feel close to him (or perhaps the little fetus' feelings)? Or is he just being a stubborn cunt and refusing to believe Guts is worth killing?

On another note, what if the king of Elfhelm can't fix up Casca? What then? Obviously, something's gotta come out of this long voyage to Elfhelm. There's got to be some huge payoff after a trillion volumes of Guts and his group heading there.

I'm just saying, if that happened, what would happen (other than Guts eating Puck)?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 11:42:12 PM by Gobolatula »

Online Walter

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 09:37:12 PM »
I don't have the manga in front of me at the moment, but in Volume 3, I think Femto pretty well spells out why. He deems Guts insignificant, even though he has murdered several apostles.

And in the grand scheme, he's probably right. Because as of right now, Guts hasn't thwarted Griffith's ultimate objective. In fact, he even helped him along with it by routing a good portion of the Kushan's naval fleet. Thanks ol' buddy!

And yes, we all expect some movement in Elfhelm. I don't really care what it is specifically. Im just looking forward to it.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Madam President

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 12:53:04 AM »
I'm with Walter on this one.   Griffith is a giant douche probably doesn't see Guts as much of a threat, especially in his current state.

As for Elfhelm (Elfhelm?), I'm hoping some monumental stuff goes down!  :daiba:

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 01:18:25 AM »
I don't know, Griffith as he is now seems different than when he was Femto.  As Femto he seemed to have a bigger "holier than thou" attitude than he usually has (had).  Now that he is back in his Griffith form his attitude makes him seem "more" like the Griffith of old.  I mean, as Femto when faced with Guts he didn't really give two shits about him.  But as the reborn/remade/renewed Griffith, he actually came to see Guts to see if there were any lingering feelings in him.  And even though he said there weren't, he was still there conversing with him, whereas when he was Femto, he just didn't care much for his existence.

Wow, so much text for so little of a point.

I think that there is something in Griffith, a small something, that still values Guts as his old comrade.  I mean when he first became Femto, he tried to take out Skull Knight he missed.  When he made a second attempt he noticed Guts and hesitated.  And in that hesitation SK got away.  Now given, Femto just raped Casca in front of Guts as a way of torturing the man.  But still, I don't know there might be some slight hint of, I guess you'd call it goodness, still in there.

The only difference this time around is that Guts won't affect Griffith's plans like he did when they had such a strong friendship.

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 01:40:22 AM »
Huh, I never really notice nor thought that Femto witheld fire on Skullknight because of Guts being on board, but if that's the case its an interesting thought, the thing is there just aren't a ton of recent direct interactions between the two besides the far off stares that a judgement can be sufficiently based on.  Then, there is also the fact that it's hard to tell whether Griffith's actions are his own lingering affections or the infant's influence. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 03:14:03 AM by Guts' intestines »

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 02:01:16 AM »
You know that's true.  Skull Knight did say when the infant first disappeared that it would return, and that it's only natural for a child to yearn for it's parents.  So perhaps it wasn't Griffith's desire to see Guts, but the infants that wanted to see it's parents and Griffith just played it off as his own desire.

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 02:49:05 AM »
So perhaps it wasn't Griffith's desire to see Guts, but the infants that wanted to see it's parents and Griffith just played it off as his own desire.
No. It was completely Griffith's idea to come in his new body to see if his heart wavered upon seeing Guts, since that conflict, when he was still a human, was what he blamed his downfall on.

It's one of the central elements in the story, and I really feel bad about having to point it out. :griff:

The aftermath of that scene, with Griffith calling off the fight after Casca was endangered, was where Guts and Casca's child's influence kicked in.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 02:49:47 AM »
You know that's true.  Skull Knight did say when the infant first disappeared that it would return, and that it's only natural for a child to yearn for it's parents.  So perhaps it wasn't Griffith's desire to see Guts, but the infants that wanted to see it's parents and Griffith just played it off as his own desire.

Well, I can't take credit for that thought because its been mentioned a lot, mostly since Griffith saved Casca during the Guts + Zodd fight on the Hill of Swords, its just that as of now imo its really hard to determine Griffith's motivations (besides becoming king of the world) for doing anything with anyone.  He uses a huge band to do most of his dirty work; yet he is also he who can't be harmed by anyone on the material plane, and most believe this is his way of maintaining appearances, but a lot of his inner circle are apostles.  I don't think that maintaining appearances is his main motivation for recruiting members for the Neo Hawks, perhaps it's his way of recapturing that old sense of camraderie from his past, who knows?  I just don't think many could be fooled into believing Zodd the Immortal who is like 8 ft. tall even in human form is... well, human, and that's not even considering the larger Grunbeld.

As for why I think he hasn't killed Guts it's simple.  Basically, Griffith has one main motivation and that's becoming the king of the world, this tunnel vision has limited his actions to things that will get him closer to this goal.  Griffith is a tactician; not a butcher, since Guts hasn't done anything to deter Griffith on his path to kingdom, there really is no reason to kill him.  This has been aided by the fact althought Guts wants to seek revenge on Griffith eventually, he has been far more focused on fixing Casca, so there hasn't been a point in which Guts' goal/wants have crossed and come into coflict with Griffith's goal.  If this were to happen, perhaps that would be the time in which Griffith would think that killing Guts would be advantageous.  However, there is something of interest to be found from the events of the Hill of Swords, because up to now (as far as I can recall) that was the only time in which Griffith did anything that didn't advance him towards his goal, I can't imagine him really needing  Rickert to join the band.  So, that leaves his motivation for doing so as him wanting to see Rickert and more importantly Guts, again.  I think whereas Griffith protecting Casca could be said to be the infants influence, Griffith going to see Guts and Rickert could be some remainder of his humanity showing through.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 06:49:35 AM »
I do believe in the tunnel vision theory with Griffith being so focused with what he is doing that Guts and company are beneath his notice. However, I do like the idea that Griffith is completely aware of Guts and has something special in mind for him once he takes over the world in an age of darkness. More revenge for Griffith (as if he hasn't done enough). 

Offline Skullgrin140

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 03:10:33 PM »
Most likely he is just waiting for the day when he & Guts can finally do battle one last time. But that's my theory anyway.

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 04:04:28 PM »
Most likely he is just waiting for the day when he & Guts can finally do battle one last time. But that's my theory anyway.

So...  roughly fifteen volumes ago?  I'm glad Griffith's other petty ambitions were just side dishes for his REAL goal.

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 01:16:45 AM »
What do you guys make of the brief scene where Guts is slowly passing out after the Guts/Zodd VS Apostle Ganishka? He and Griffith share a glance at each other (with a great distance between them), each of them not really having ominous looks on their face.

I mean, Guts was pretty worn out and tired and beaten BADLY. He saw Griffith RIGHT THERE and he just fell out. I assume that Griffith saw the whole scene. Guts temporarily aiding Zodd, his successful strike on Ganishka, and the little witch Schierke helping Guts.

I couldn't tell if Griffith was giving him the "hawk eye" or not. To me, it looked like:

Griffith: Cool shit.
Guts: Ugh... Shut up. (passes out)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:47:51 AM by Gobolatula »

Offline SimplyEd

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 01:59:53 AM »
Hmm, so why is it that super-villains never seem to get rid of their respective nemesis when they have a chance? In most cases the hero would represent a real threat to the villain. He/She would be the main or even sole obstacle in achieving a certain goal, something to which that person dedicates his/her life for.

So does Guts pose a real threat to Femto? Is he even an obstacle in Femtos conquest? I think the short answer to this would be: no. And that's why he told Guts that his very existence is insignificant to him. On the other hand, we can still see that Guts is not quite as "insignificant" to Femto as he would like it to be, judging from various reactions to Guts' presence in the past. It remains to be seen whether these reactions stem from the vestiges of Femtos new vessel or Griffs personal feelings on that matter..maybe even both.
In a way it would be be quite interesting if it were for Griffs personal sentiments. If you think of Femto as the very incarnation of Griffs desires, of his wish for his own kingdom and to overcome his own limitations and boundaries, then that would mean, by letting Guts live and thereby giving him even the slightest opportunity to somehow topple his ambitions, he is , on  a subconscious level, working against himself.
A few people have already come up with the question of what would happen once Femto has actually reached his goal, what will happen then. What happens once an avatar of desire is without any..well..desire anymore?
It could very well be that Griff was in fact somewhat afraid of the answer to that question even when he was still a human being. The time that was most joyful for himself was the time when he was still working towards his goal, with his comrades who shared his sentiments. It's needless to say that he himself triggered his own downfall back then, when he couldn't accept his followers own ambitions, when he was already so close to achieving his own goals.

Many things have come back in full circle ever since his reincarnation, even though it's all just a twisted mockery of the past. Now we have the neo-hawks, Femto wearing his charming Griffith the Saviour suit, an opposing force that needs to be conquered and of course Guts, the most prominent constant in the equation.
At the very least it's safe to assume that Guts' presence has always been a factor for irrational behaviour on Griffs part and that's not likely to change anytime soon.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 02:41:58 AM by SimplyEd »
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Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 07:29:40 AM »
One of the things that upsets me about the 'new' Griffith is his whole "mysterious" attitude. I'm not talking about the mystery surrounding the new incarnation, but the way he acts.

He barely speaks a word, and when he does, it's all his "tactical speak." Such as, "This cake tastes lovely, Lady Charlotte," etc...

Around Guts back in the day, Griffith loosened up a bit. He even got a little goofy and had a sense of humor.

As mentioned before, Griffith sees this part of himself as the weak part. Despite the "these soldiers aren't my friends" speech he gave before Charlotte back in the old days, Guts was his buddy. He needed a dude like that around him, or he'd go insane. Like Zodd said.

Griffith is such a frustrating person to me. And we've all seen this type of person. The guy that doesn't want to acknowlege certain feelings because they're considered weak. Bleegghhhh... Makes me want to smack him in the mouth.

Here's an example of Griffith's possible mental change. There was the Griffith that made the speech to the queen of Midland as she was being burned to death, when he said something along the lines of, "Status means nothing on the battlefield. This is war." When I saw/read that, I admired him because of his rise from nothing to something awesome and he was taking a stand against the arrogant pricks that plotted against him. Skip ahead, then we get to the Femto Griffith, who stood up way high on the stairs, looking down at Guts, calling him insignificant. In all fairness, he was insignificant at the time. But still. What a dick.

Anyway, anyway... When I started this thread, it was because I had just woke up from a Berserk dream. In the dream, Guts had to "stop Griffith by saving him." In other words, Guts was just... back on Griffith's side. I don't get what that means and I'm not trying to sound super deep or anything, but man I wish that would happen. I woke up before there was any conclusion. Oh, also in that dream, Guts went to Griffith to get Casca all healed up. Griffith's response was kind and he said something along the lines of, "Yeah man! I'm a god! I can do shit like that no problem!"

The thought of Griffith just breaks Guts' heart. Any time someone mentions his name, he goes nuts. I highly HIGHLY doubt they will ever be close again in the slightest bit. But I'm pretty confident that I speak for more than 2 people when I say, "I want them to be friends again." Unfortunately, the only way that could ever happen was if Griffith spat out all the "good" in him and that became its own entity. Oh wait, Dragonball Z did that.

I will not be satisfied with Griffith's defeat unless he screams "I'M SORRY GUTS!!!!!" and "I'M SORRY CASCA!!!!!" and "I'M SORRY, ORIGINAL BAND OF THE HAWK!!!!!" And each one of those statements must be screamed at least 50 times each, all while a bunch of lights are flashing around Griffith, who is wriggling in and out of a gigantic, bright hawk-like form, slowly breaking apart. Casca, in her warrior gear and short hair, is holding a wounded Guts, who is crying his eyes out, looking up at Griffith. Griffith is crying as well, looking at Guts. His final words are, "I love you, friend." Then his essence BURSTS all over the place. Guts is laying there, crying. He whimpers, "Griffith....."

Ahem. I can't help but constantly thinking of the ending. Anyone can come up with a highly plausible ending (and Lord knows it's fun as hell), but I don't think anyone can fill in the gap between now and then.

I want more Berserk.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 07:42:07 AM by Gobolatula »

Offline SimplyEd

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 12:30:14 PM »
One of the things that upsets me about the 'new' Griffith is his whole "mysterious" attitude. I'm not talking about the mystery surrounding the new incarnation, but the way he acts.

Well, that's because Femto is all about calculated efficiency. All that he does is to achieve his goal, without the human factor that could have swayed him yet again. His behaviour is only mysterious because the people around him want to be fooled.


Here's an example of Griffith's possible mental change. There was the Griffith that made the speech to the queen of Midland as she was being burned to death, when he said something along the lines of, "Status means nothing on the battlefield. This is war." When I saw/read that, I admired him because of his rise from nothing to something awesome and he was taking a stand against the arrogant pricks that plotted against him. Skip ahead, then we get to the Femto Griffith, who stood up way high on the stairs, looking down at Guts, calling him insignificant. In all fairness, he was insignificant at the time. But still. What a dick.

It sure is ironic that, in the end, Griff isn't really all that different from the people he was going up against. He also went over the corpses of those closest to him, to achieve his own selfish dreams. It sure is true that status doesn't matter at all because each and every person is equally screwed by causality. Each of them are manipulated into playing a part in a horrible set of chess.

Anyway, anyway... When I started this thread, it was because I had just woke up from a Berserk dream. In the dream, Guts had to "stop Griffith by saving him." In other words, Guts was just... back on Griffith's side. I don't get what that means and I'm not trying to sound super deep or anything, but man I wish that would happen. I woke up before there was any conclusion. Oh, also in that dream, Guts went to Griffith to get Casca all healed up. Griffith's response was kind and he said something along the lines of, "Yeah man! I'm a god! I can do shit like that no problem!"

The thought of Griffith just breaks Guts' heart. Any time someone mentions his name, he goes nuts. I highly HIGHLY doubt they will ever be close again in the slightest bit. But I'm pretty confident that I speak for more than 2 people when I say, "I want them to be friends again." Unfortunately, the only way that could ever happen was if Griffith spat out all the "good" in him and that became its own entity. Oh wait, Dragonball Z did that.

I will not be satisfied with Griffith's defeat unless he screams "I'M SORRY GUTS!!!!!" and "I'M SORRY CASCA!!!!!" and "I'M SORRY, ORIGINAL BAND OF THE HAWK!!!!!" And each one of those statements must be screamed at least 50 times each, all while a bunch of lights are flashing around Griffith, who is wriggling in and out of a gigantic, bright hawk-like form, slowly breaking apart. Casca, in her warrior gear and short hair, is holding a wounded Guts, who is crying his eyes out, looking up at Griffith. Griffith is crying as well, looking at Guts. His final words are, "I love you, friend." Then his essence BURSTS all over the place. Guts is laying there, crying. He whimpers, "Griffith....."

Hmm, personally i don't want him to apologize and i think it's quite safe to assume that Femto would never do that anyway. Even if Griff was led into this mess because of causality, it was still his very own decision and he has to answer for that, he will have to take responsibility and Guts is there to deliver judgement.^^
And yeah, i would like to think that Guts himself would rather prefer Griff/Femto to die standing upright rather than on his knees, begging for forgiveness.

Ahem. I can't help but constantly thinking of the ending. Anyone can come up with a highly plausible ending (and Lord knows it's fun as hell), but I don't think anyone can fill in the gap between now and then.

To quote a rather wise man: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."


I want more Berserk.


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Online Walter

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 02:42:58 PM »
One of the things that upsets me about the 'new' Griffith is his whole "mysterious" attitude. I'm not talking about the mystery surrounding the new incarnation, but the way he acts.

He barely speaks a word, and when he does, it's all his "tactical speak." Such as, "This cake tastes lovely, Lady Charlotte," etc...

Around Guts back in the day, Griffith loosened up a bit. He even got a little goofy and had a sense of humor.
It's because he shed his humanity.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 11:34:18 PM »
Yeeahh.....

Walter, you're right. 

Ed, so are you. The final battle can't really happen without Guts being full of rage. Griffith did what he did and he knows this. He must pay. My fantasy of them being friends again is just the soft, mushy side of me having a fantasy. I get like that a lot.

What makes Berserk so awesome is the sheer tragicosity of the whole thing. I'm just saying it frustrates me like a mofo reading these two former friends' journeys. Frustrates me in a good way, obviously.

I was re-reading a bit of volume 12 and one thing I saw was interesting. It was when Griffith was seeing the "young self" image, and he accepted that the path to the castle was made of corpses. He said, "I will not apologize."

So... from there, Guts finishes climbing up the arm, and Griffith notes that he was the only one who made him forget his dream.

Griffith became Femto, who has no "humanity" left in him. I assume that the rape of Casca was half to test his own heart and *make sure* there was no attachment left in him and half to "take revenge" on Guts for causing his temporary downfall. Also, I'm sure he did it out of sheer insane desire. (I'm sure the rape of Casca has been discussed a trillion times before; I gotta search for it)

Griffith couldn't bring himself to kill Guts when Skull Knight rescued him. He was abviously astonished by this. If he shed all his humanity, why the hell couldn't he make Guts explode? (seriously, why?)

Later, while Guts was on his quest for vengeance, Griffith noted that Guts was now beneath his notice. Just a pebble. Just someone he used to get him further. Someone he neither loved or hated. Sorta like Gennon, but without any dirt on 'im.

When Griffith came back as a human, he wanted to see Guts in person to make sure that, *in his new body of flesh*, his heart wouldn't be swayed. He's still afraid of his own humanity.

I'd say... In the end... Griffith doesn't JUST KILL Guts, because he's beneath his notice. OR he wants to keep saying that he's beneath his notice.

On another note, I take back what I said about Griffith's "noble" speech. When Griffith said, "this is war, status means nothing," that's still true in his eyes. He'll fight and kill anyone in his way, no matter what they are. Griffith's group also consists of tons of different types of people. Humans, apostles, Kushan, etc... While Griffith is just as arrogant as the pricks he was up against during the old Midland days, he hasn't gone against what he said, really.

My brain is a pretzel!

Offline SimplyEd

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 12:39:06 AM »
What makes Berserk so awesome is the sheer tragicosity of the whole thing. I'm just saying it frustrates me like a mofo reading these two former friends' journeys. Frustrates me in a good way, obviously.

No need to feel bad about it. If the story didn't stir up all those emotions then Miura-sensei would have made a mistake. And we can't have that now, can we?! ^^

Griffith became Femto, who has no "humanity" left in him. I assume that the rape of Casca was half to test his own heart and *make sure* there was no attachment left in him and half to "take revenge" on Guts for causing his temporary downfall. Also, I'm sure he did it out of sheer insane desire. (I'm sure the rape of Casca has been discussed a trillion times before; I gotta search for it)

The rape scene was purely directed against Guts, because Femto was quite aware that this very incident would hurt Guts the most (Casca as well, of course). Femto could have killed both of them at any time but he obviously came to the conclusion that torturing them in that way would be sufficient enough.
Even though there's no humanity left in Femto, there still seems to be a certain desire to let those two live. Even though one of them might find a way to pose a threat to him in the future.
The way i see it, that's because of an inherent controversy in what we consider to be "desire". Griff and Femto both created numerous possibilities that could, under certain circumstances, lead to their own downfall.

When Griffith came back as a human, he wanted to see Guts in person to make sure that, *in his new body of flesh*, his heart wouldn't be swayed. He's still afraid of his own humanity.

Well, Femto is no human. I would like to think that it's not so much that he's afraid of his former humanity, but rather whether his desires and longings, which defined Griffs whole life, are real. Femto is an incarnation of those emotions so, in a way, his very existence is dependent on them to be clear.



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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2008, 12:19:31 AM »
Hoping in this discussion a bit late. Yes, I got bored today. :P

I want to touch on Guts' ability to constantly tempt fate and come out surviving. Griffith had always been amazed at Guts' ability to simply survive, as if that desire to live was akin to his desire to become King. Griffith has been witness to this over and over again throughout the Golden Age. Guts wasn't just a tool to use to accomplish his dream, he was truly fascinating to Griffith in many ways (ex: I don't think any of us will forget the look on The Hawks faces when Guts, seemingly lost to Griffith in their first duel, turns the fight around and begins busting up that pretty face of his :)). A fascination that he feels betrayed him in the worst way.

To the Eclipse!

During volume 13 while SK is rescuing Guts and Casca, Griffith "tests" his new power on SK, which as we see is easily survived by SK. Then, just before SK makes his full escape, we see Griffith look at Guts and put his hand out toward him, as if he is about to try his powers again, this time on Guts.



But for some reason it doesn't happen.



Why? Did he stop himself on purpose? Was he literally not able to do it? Keep in mind this is before he acquires the demon child.

Then again, later on in volume 22 on the Hill of Swords, we see Griffith's heart begin to race as Guts and Zodd duel, even before Zodd transforms or Casca is put in danger. He asks himself if this is because of the demon child that is part of him, which is quite likely.

The rape scene was purely directed against Guts, because Femto was quite aware that this very incident would hurt Guts the most (Casca as well, of course). Femto could have killed both of them at any time but he obviously came to the conclusion that torturing them in that way would be sufficient enough.
Even though there's no humanity left in Femto, there still seems to be a certain desire to let those two live. Even though one of them might find a way to pose a threat to him in the future.
The way i see it, that's because of an inherent controversy in what we consider to be "desire". Griff and Femto both created numerous possibilities that could, under certain circumstances, lead to their own downfall.





I agree with this absolutely.

I think it's possible that now Griffith has had his revenge, he's interested in seeing just what Guts is capable of doing. Each time he sees him (not an awful lot), Guts has somehow become even more capable. Guts defeating Wyald, surviving the Eclipse, surviving against the Count (including taking a swing at Griffith himself), then next he saw he was holding his own against Zodd, then finally he watched Guts (having acquired the Berserker Armor) go head to head with Ganishka (and countless other monsters).

Even though Guts obviously shows no real threat to Griffith, I think the reason he doesn't kill Guts isn't that simple. Perhaps somewhere in his subconscious he actually wants Guts to survive, or even better, "knows" he will.

Offline Pasado

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2008, 03:43:45 AM »
Hello, first post.

Quote
I think it's possible that now Griffith has had his revenge, he's interested in seeing just what Guts is capable of doing.

I think that's right. However he may not want Guts to live, another possibility is that he simply wants a fair fight. He may believe killing Guts now would be meaningless, as Guts has not yet reached his pinnacle of strength, whereas Griffith has(presumably). This would provide a victory with more meaning for Griffith, as he could say he defeated Guts at his best. Considering that Griffith is a God Hand, the possibility of loss to Guts is low enough to warrant what could otherwise be the careless villain cliche.

Online Walter

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2008, 03:55:44 AM »
Hello, first post.
Welcome to the board.  Have a smoke with me :badbone:

Quote
another possibility is that he simply wants a fair fight. He may believe killing Guts now would be meaningless, as Guts has not yet reached his pinnacle of strength, whereas Griffith has(presumably). This would provide a victory with more meaning for Griffith, as he could say he defeated Guts at his best.
I don't see any evidence of that. Griffith's already established his superiority, physically and otherwise, to Guts in a myriad of ways.

Griffith had every intention of letting Zodd decimate Guts during the Hill of Swords encounter. It was Guts and Casca's child (seems mean to simply call him DEMON CHILD these days) that turned the tide of that battle and ended up swaying Griffith to call it off.  Likewise, Guts has only narrowly escaped death at Griffith and his army's hands since then.

In vol 27, Flora allowed the Band to escape the apostle army by creating a wall of flame - her final sacrifice. And in vol 32, the eastern ocean separated Guts from Griffith after the battle at Vritannnis' ports. These aren't circumstances of Guts continuing to live at Griffith's direct will. He's just managed to survive, and Griffith hasn't yet made a pointed effort of rubbing him out. He hasn't really needed to. After all, he's beneath him, remember?

As for the earlier pictures posted about Femto failing to crush Skull Knight, Guts and Casca, there's no real discreet explanation offered yet. Even with the way it's paneled in the manga, it can be argued either way: his power failed him, or he saw Guts, reconsidered, and delayed action. Personally, I think he just wasn't able to do it. He was, afterall, just a freshman demon lord at the time.

Anyway, thanks for bringing it up, as it's always going to be fun fodder for argument until (if?) we ever get a direct answer on why that scene transpired that way. It just goes to show there's still so much more room to develop in Berserk, even independent of the main story arc.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline willowhugger

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2008, 06:20:08 AM »
My general theory is that Griffith is dead.

Griffith died at the Eclipse and the new creature that exists is Femto in human form.  Really, it's tragic but all of Griffith's complicated and interesting feelings towards Guts have been annihilated by his God Hand soul that feels nothing for anyone or anything. 

Another possibility is that Griffith is now infinitely more spiteful towards Guts than he was before.  After being delayed from his destiny, he believes it is now his place to leave Guts trailing in the winds with a broken and insane Casca. 

Of course, I'm not completely caught up yet.

Offline einherjar

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2008, 10:28:32 PM »
Griffith became Femto, who has no "humanity" left in him.

Even though there's no humanity left in Femto. . .

I prefer to say that he is devoid of conscience.  And because of that, he is "free" to serve Idea's machinations simply by "do[ing] as [he] will."


I assume that the rape of Casca was half to test his own heart and *make sure* there was no attachment left in him and half to "take revenge" on Guts for causing his temporary downfall. Also, I'm sure he did it out of sheer insane desire. (I'm sure the rape of Casca has been discussed a trillion times before; I gotta search for it)

The rape scene was purely directed against Guts, because Femto was quite aware that this very incident would hurt Guts the most (Casca as well, of course).

Don't forget that raping Casca was a necessary step for Femto to be incarnated.  Also, with that in mind, perhaps it wasn't that Femto wasn't able to kill Guts, but that Casca needed to survive in order to give birth to the Demon Child.  As such, SK was acting an agent of causality, rather than in opposition to it.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2008, 11:11:37 PM »

Don't forget that raping Casca was a necessary step for Femto to be reborn.  Also, with that in mind, perhaps it wasn't that Femto wasn't able to kill Guts, but that Casca needed to survive in order to give birth to the Demon Child.  As such, SK was acting an agent of causality, rather than in opposition to it.
I don't think Griffith/Femto knew that Casca was already pregnant with Guts child and thus put his demon seed into her. Like the poster above you stated, He (Femto) raped her in front of Guts because he knew that they had feelings for each other and knew that emotional damage would hurt more.
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Offline willowhugger

Re: Why doesn't Griffith kill Guts? (and other stuff)
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2008, 11:20:47 PM »
I also think the Demon Child was absorbed into the vessel by chance more than anything.