2008 Presidential Election

[Griffith]

Speaking of which...

Obama Win Causes Obsessed Backers To See How Empty Lives Are

Oh God, it's so true!


Articles:
Obama inauguration tickets fetching 5 figures online
Bushes welcome Obamas to White House

 

[Aazealh]

And so it begins...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/us/politics/10babies.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

Also to make it even worse.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/10/father-goes-beh.html

Damn, I can't understand those people. Using the same first name if they like it, alright, why not, but "Sarah McCain Palin" or "Michelle Obama"? That's just retarded.

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

I'm going to call my first kid McPalin

Sounds like some kind of failed McDonald's meal.

 

[Sanguinius]

Obama hasn't even been sworn in yet but he's got some ideas floating about that're even worse than I had imagined.

"It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service. ...

Here's how it would work. Young people will know that between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, the nation will enlist them for three months of civilian service. They'll be asked to report for three months of basic civil defense training in their state or community, where they will learn what to do in the event of biochemical, nuclear or conventional attack; how to assist others in an evacuation; how to respond when a levee breaks or we're hit by a natural disaster. These young people will be available to address their communities' most pressing needs."

That was said by Rep. Rahm Emanuel, if Obama merely start's his Presidency by enacting stuff like this I'm really going to be re-thinking how Fascist like he's going to be. Hopefully Obama's realistic side will dissuade his collectivist side on something as appalling as this. If something like this does go through, consider it a heads up, considering the age range of a lot of people on this board this will affect many here if this goes through.

 

[Scorpio]

I wonder if I'll have to serve in two armies then... as Denmark already has something like that. Is that even allowed?

 

[Lithrael]

The hell is so appalling about three months of community service/training for emergencies? I think you're looking at a lawn with a gentle grade to it and calling it a slippery slope.

 

[Ramen4ever]

The hell is so appalling about three months of community service/training for emergencies? I think you're looking at a lawn with a gentle grade to it and calling it a slippery slope.

Probably the idea of going to basic training and then a state of emergency being declared. At which point your basic trained bottom can go to wherever and collect some shrapnel.

At least that's my guess.

 

[Guts intestines]

Probably the idea of going to basic training and then a state of emergency being declared. At which point your basic trained bottom can go to wherever and collect some shrapnel.

At least that's my guess.

No, he's merely exaggerating as Lithrael said. If everyone in this age range has to go through this training then there's nothing that makes anyone more likely to be sent off to war, and really people should be trained for emergencies, and you can best believe it will be really basic training, besides its only three months and is not the same as combat training as you're thinking Ramen. This is not the same thing as a revival of the draft either, although he should change the wording to not scare people who could be lead to think so.

Besides, isn't this what he brought up before during one of the debates? He said it could be used as payment for helping young people with college.

 

[Vampire_Hunter_Bob]

Sanguinius can you provide a link to this? I'd like to actually read it.

Besides, isn't this what he brought up before during one of the debates? He said it could be used as payment for helping young people with college.

Yeah I remember this too, the stoners that I knew that were voting for him were freaking out about it because they actually would have to do something to get payments.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Sanguinius can you provide a link to this? I'd like to actually read it.

Here. This is the quickest thing I found.
http://overlawyered.com/2008/11/rahm-emanuel-and-compulsory-universal-service/

This seems like a better source:
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf
Though I read somewhere that it's been... revised, language wise.

 

[Vampire_Hunter_Bob]

Though I read somewhere that it's been... revised, language wise.

So says these people: http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80539

 

[Griffith]

Voluntary community service programs? Training for emergencies in school rather than the already required and oh so useful P.E. and home ec courses? Yeah, sounds like terrible injustice, the end of Western Civilization as we know it. Next stop, Obama Youth and the Fourth Reich.

 

[Ramen4ever]

For those too lazy to click on the Obama pdf:

IV ENABLE MORE AMERICANS TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY

Before the 2000 election, George Bush and Dick Cheney famously told our military “Help is on the way.”
Today, the active Army is short 3,000 captains and majors, and 58 percent of recent West Point graduates are
choosing to leave the force – double the historic average. We do not have a single combat brigade at home in
reserve, ready for an unexpected crisis. Our National Guard and Reserves have only half the equipment levels
they need, hampering their ability to respond to crises, foreign and domestic. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will
strengthen the military and enable more men and women to serve their country in the armed forces.
Expand to Meet Military Needs on the Ground: A major stress on our troops comes from insufficient ground
forces. Barack Obama and Joe Biden support plans to increase the size of the Army by 65,000 troops and the
Marines by 27,000 troops. Increasing our end strength will help units retrain and re-equip properly between
deployments and decrease the strain on military families.

Solve Recruitment and Retention Problems: A nation of 300 million strong should not be struggling to find
enough qualified citizens to serve. Recruiting and retention problems have been swept under the rug by
lowering standards and using the “Stop Loss” program to keep our servicemen and women in the force after
their enlistment has expired. Even worse, the burdens of fixing these problems have been placed on the
shoulders of young recruiting sergeants, instead of leadership in Washington. America needs a leader who can
inspire today’s youth to serve our nation the same way President Kennedy once did—reaching out to youth, as
well as the parents, teachers, coaches, and community and religious leaders who influence them. Barack
Obama and Joe Biden will make it a presidential imperative to restore the ethic of public service to the agenda
of today’s youth, whether it be serving their local communities in such roles as teachers or first responders, or
serving in the military and reserve forces or diplomatic corps that keep our nation free and safe.

There's a lot more, most of which is actually quite interesting. If Obama's plan works and these "corps" help to show a new face for America well that's something to look into.

 

[Aazealh]

The hell is so appalling about three months of community service/training for emergencies? I think you're looking at a lawn with a gentle grade to it and calling it a slippery slope.

No you don't understand Obama is a FASCIST flee while you still can!!

 

[Rhombaad]

Next stop, Obama Youth and the Fourth Reich.

As long as I get my knife I'll be happy.

 

[Sanguinius]

Voluntary community service programs? Training for emergencies in school rather than the already required and oh so useful P.E. and home ec courses? Yeah, sounds like terrible injustice, the end of Western Civilization as we know it. Next stop, Obama Youth and the Fourth Reich.

No, mandatory, and you didn't read my post. Also it's directed at 18-25 year olds, not school children.

"It's time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for"

Perhaps he just thinks that everyone will recognise how great the current great leader is and everyone will volunteer, but to me, use of the word universal does not give the suggestion of a voluntary scheme. As for the Fascist Nazi associations, like anything it's important to know what it is you're talking about before you start talking about it. Fascism has 3 pillars upon which it is built 1. Corporatist economics which Obama does follow, like many others today only Obama believes in it more than others, as will become clear in the Labour market with bills like the "The Employee Free Choice Act" which removes the ability to vote secretly on union membership. The 2nd component of Fascism is Statist Militarism and 3rd Authoritarian political organisation. Nazism is somewhat different as it has a fourth column which is hierarchical racism, in the Nazis case a racial theory based around Aryan superiority. By creating a mandatory programme of civilian involvement in "community service programs" where that term is used so broadly that it covers civil defence programmes as well as what would be called community service in much of the rest of the world he is moving closer to the 2nd point.

The hell is so appalling about three months of community service/training for emergencies? I think you're looking at a lawn with a gentle grade to it and calling it a slippery slope.

Even on its own standing and not thinking about any “slippery slope” enforcing 3 months slavery on adults under the threat of going to prison, is to me undesirable and to go back to an earlier topic clearly against the US constitution.

 

[Vampire_Hunter_Bob]

...

To be honest I can't blame people for just skipping your posts, for the most part you are just predicting the worst and calling Obama a facist. How is he even more of a fascist then bush?

Even on its own standing and not thinking about any “slippery slope” enforcing 3 months slavery on adults under the threat of going to prison, is to me undesirable and to go back to an earlier topic clearly against the US constitution.

slav·er·y
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.

slavery
1. the state or condition of being a slave
2. the practice of owning slaves
3. hard work with little reward

There are people that are REAL slaves around the world and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't appreciate you degrading their circumstances by calling this slavery. Many times has the US has practiced Mandatory Service for the Army and guess what. That didn't end the US as we knew it.

 

[Griffith]

No, mandatory, and you didn't read my post. Also it's directed at 18-25 year olds, not school children.

No, I simply also read the pdf, with voluntary in the subtitle, rather than having it dictated to me in sensational fashion. Aside from the language like "required", at the college level it's actually just for a financial break. Information it took me about five seconds to look up. Anyway, think it's possible people are merely jumping to conclusions? It would be so nigh impossible to mandate and enforce this here from a practical standpoint, that even entertaining the thought is preposterous. Obama wouldn't be a fascist, he'd be a joke overnight. So, I'll believe it when I see it, at this point it amounts to about the same as "Obama is a secret socialist Muslim terrorist!"

Everyone stay calm, don't worry, you're not going to be required to do the common good just yet, as "appalling" as that would be. =)

Even on its own standing and not thinking about any “slippery slope” enforcing 3 months slavery on adults under the threat of going to prison, is to me undesirable and to go back to an earlier topic clearly against the US constitution.

 

[Sanguinius]

To be honest I can't blame people for just skipping your posts, for the most part you are just predicting the worst and calling Obama a facist. How is he even more of a fascist then bush?

slav•er•y
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.

slavery
1. the state or condition of being a slave
2. the practice of owning slaves
3. hard work with little reward

There are people that are REAL slaves around the world and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't appreciate you degrading their circumstances by calling this slavery. Many times has the US has practiced Mandatory Service for the Army and guess what. That didn't end the US as we knew it.

I suggest you read your 3rd point and not just post it. "The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence." Being subject to the influence of a government that forces labour is clearly being "subject" to an "influence". I know Americans like to redefine words and interpret everything within the confines of their own cultural history but slavery is not specifically a race based agrarian system of economic organisation as practiced in the past in the USA. Slavery is a system of forced Labour, classical Slave owning societies used slavery, but theirs was not racially based nor inherently hereditary nor did the state of slavery necessarily start at birth nor last until death, slavery can be a temporary aspect in a person’s life.

No, I simply also read the pdf, with voluntary in the subtitle, rather than having it dictated to me in sensational fashion. Aside from the language like "required", at the college level it's actually just for a financial break. Information it took me about five seconds to look up. Anyway, think it's possible people are merely jumping to conclusions? It would be so nigh impossible to mandate and enforce this here from a practical standpoint, that even entertaining the thought is preposterous. Obama wouldn't be a fascist, he'd be a joke overnight. So, I'll believe it when I see it, at this point it amounts to about the same as "Obama is a secret socialist Muslim terrorist!"

Everyone stay calm, and don't worry, you're not going to be required to do the common good just yet, as "appalling" as that would be. =)

I've heard Rep. Rahm Emanuel speak on television in person on this matter and he specifically stated that it was a mandatory programme he had in mind. As I did say though, Obama has yet to take office and this isn't even in a bill being proposed let alone implemented yet, so as I said I hope that Obama doesn't (by saying doesn’t this means he still has a chance not to even start this, so obviously it hasn’t started yet) start his Presidency by going down this road. At the moment this is just an idea floating around the Obama camp, although in and of itself that is worrying, for some at least. To date it seems that Obama is using Rep. Rahm Emanuel as a "feeler" either on this issue or on further bail outs of the "big 3" car companies, that might not be the case, maybe he's just got a big mouth and is pushing his own ideas rather than speaking for the administration but I think he'll be a guy worth watching if Obama is using him as a "feeler". As Bob pointed out they’re all ready re-writing some of their work on this idea, so maybe the feedback from floating this idea was negative enough to dissuade the Obama Admin. from this idea. Policies don’t just fall out of an abyss they are responsive to circumstances so a negative reaction to a policy can change policy. It’s a truly moronic criticism of those who criticise government for criticising them for criticising a policy that is then not implemented on the basis that the policy actually implemented does not have the negative aspects or effects they complained about.

As for your “common good” remark, if you think your Great leader knows what the “common good” is, and so superior to all others in determining this that he can force them to do things they would otherwise not do and produce the “common good” by doing so, then okay. Personally I think I know enough to know that there are somethings I don’t know and which no one knows. I think I know enough to know that a small collection of individuals directing the activities of millions will not efficiently arrive at their objectives and that whilst trying to do so they will create unintended negative consequences. I also think I know enough to know that when this small number of individuals make their activities mandatory they worsen the activity by both increasing the inefficiency of the programme and by increasing the negative unintended consequences.

As for skipping my posts, as if I care if some people do that. As for questioning my use of certain words like Fascist, personally it is my observation that most people don't understand what the words, Fascist; Socialist; Liberal etc really mean. As I tried to put very simply in my last post, Nazism is barely even a form of Fascism, it is either not Fascism or it is a unique offshoot of Fascism. Just because most people don't really understand the meanings of certain words doesn't mean that I'm going to refrain from using them simply because some people won't understand what I'm actually saying but will interpret it through their own misunderstands and misconceptions of words and the world.

Obama does utilise Fascist like economics, like many and he does seem keener than I previously though he was on Fascist like social control but as I said Fascism has 3 points and he's not and I don't expect him to make any moves toward the 3rd aspect of Fascism which is authoritarian government. So I don't take back my comments on re-thinking how Fascist like Obama's going to be as in 1 of 3 aspects of Fascism he is making the USA more Fascist like and in the 2nd it seems he might well make it more Fascist like. I always say "like" as it's not actual Fascism, as Fascism isn't a pick and mix, it's a full coherent system and all aspects of it are not being met and until they are it’s not Fascism.

 

[_Noone_]

I'm with you Sanguinius.

This does not bode well. He isn't even sworn in yet and already power-tripping. These ideas sound like oppression in a colorful candy wrapper. Reminds me of that melodrama movie Swing Kids. Wasn't the Hitler Youth 'voluntary' at first? I don't wish to get anyone's panities in a bunch as what usually happens with Godwin's Law. I'm sure Obama has fine and clear intentions. Its hard not to be for the redistrubution of wealth thing when you are poor. But who rewards clean success with a shakedown? Or drafts college students without a war? These things don't seem right. He says things that are anti-constitution. All I see are more laws, more rights revoked under fine and clear intentions.

 

[Ramen4ever]

Seeing as how my link(s) .. magically.. disappeared. I'm reposting it so people can actually read the service plan. Instead of arguing about things that they most likely only skimmed through or heard about.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf

The original quote that sparked it,
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m11d6-Obamas-chief-of-staff-choice-favors-compulsory-universal-service
Which is simply a quote from Rahm's book.

 

[Griffith]

Oh please, this hysteria is absolutely hysterically funny.

I know Americans like to redefine words and interpret everything within the confines of their own cultural history

As does everyone, so why would you use such a culturally loaded word when speaking to a largely American audience? There's plenty of other ways you could have more effectively expressed yourself, so don't lecture Bob about jargon for lack of better communication.

I've heard Rep. Rahm Emanuel speak on television in person on this matter and he specifically stated that it was a mandatory programme he had in mind.

Where did you hear him "on television in person"? It's not that I don't believe you, but that in itself isn't much as it can be easily misstated. It's certainly not on the same level as written proposals, which have already been misconstrued, and I doubt actually very well scrutinized or even read. I saw both the offending language that's been cited, as well fine print which mostly reveals that it isn't much different from anything we have already.

As I did say though, Obama has yet to take office and this isn't even in a bill being proposed let alone implemented yet, so as I said I hope that Obama doesn't (by saying doesn’t this means he still has a chance not to even start this, so obviously it hasn’t started yet) start his Presidency by going down this road.

That's exactly why this is all much ado about nothing. I'm laughing in your face about it as I would in Obama's if he tried it; it's just not going to happen. The outcry over the suspect internet innuendo is enough that you can imagine what would happen in the mainstream. Also, speaking of how American policy is formed and starting one's presidency, it makes no sense for how Obama would want to start his administration from a "day 1" political standpoint. He'd immediately alienate his coalition and in fact lose power, and they've been a very controlled, safe, and media savvy organization thus far. They're going to want to control not only what they do, but when they do it, so as to control what gets in the papers as the story of his administration. Clinton's big mistake was doing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" the same day he did the the popular Medical Leave Act, the first bill he signed I believe. Of course, that positive policy was ignored for the hysteria over the controversial one. Basically, it doesn't make sense for Obama to make such a grand move, and mistake, when there's so much else to be done which is no lose for him. You can't have it both ways where you lecture on the politics of policymaking on the one hand and ignore it on the other. In any case, I'd appreciate being "felt out" as opposed to the unilateral action we've grown accustomed to in the past eight years. It does in fact bode well for things.

The original quote that sparked it,
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m11d6-Obamas-chief-of-staff-choice-favors-compulsory-universal-service
Which is simply a quote from Rahm's book.

Gee, and what do ya know... =)

 

[Sanguinius]

I'm with you Sanguinius.

This does not bode well. He isn't even sworn in yet and already power-tripping. These ideas sound like oppression in a colorful candy wrapper. Reminds me of that melodrama movie Swing Kids. Wasn't the Hitler Youth 'voluntary' at first? I don't wish to get anyone's panities in a bunch as what usually happens with Godwin's Law. I'm sure Obama has fine and clear intentions. Its hard not to be for the redistrubution of wealth thing when you are poor. But who rewards clean success with a shakedown? Or drafts college students without a war? These things don't seem right. He says things that are anti-constitution. All I see are more laws, more rights revoked under fine and clear intentions.

Well that 1st sentence is a nice enough change in atmosphere for me, as it’s so unique here, so thanks. The Hitler Youth was Voluntary at first although I don't like using the Hitler example too much as any example I gave is taken to mean that history repeats itself exact and Obama will be a reincarnation of Hitler 100%. I tried to explain that by pointing out that Hitler is barely if even a Fascist and Obama isn't a fascist and whilst Hitler's divergence from Fascism is worse than Fascism in my view, Obama's divergence from Fascism is a positive divergence in my view although that doesn't invalidate the pointing out of any similarities as at least Hitler is famous and if i point out something from him at least I'll known people will have some idea of what I mean. Although maybe I'm mistaken about it, some people seem unable to grasp the idea of partial similarities in certain areas rather than a 100% clone in all areas.

Anyway I'd suggest a few things to keep you updated if you want to know what's happening I've mentioned the mises website before mises.org but I'd also suggest a guy called Peter Schiff, as you're American and he's an American businessman who follows Austrian economics and uses it to make investments, if you have that kind of money to move about http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ICshV0L1f4s that's a link to a radio show he does. He is a business man himself so while a student of Austrian Economics he is trying to make money off you himself, so keep that in mind to a degree. Studying Austrian economics merely gives an analytical perspective it doesn't make one a selfless individual.

Oh please, this hysteria is absolutely hysterically funny.

Well if it provides some amusement its not a waste then, it serves some function at least.

As does everyone, so why would you use such a culturally loaded word when speaking to a largely American audience? There's plenty of other ways you could have more effectively expressed yourself, so don't lecture Bob about jargon for lack of better communication.

I'd say it to anyone if I felt it applied; believe that if you believe anything I say, I specifically said it because I know this is an American dominant audience. Also, why say I'm lecturing Bob? didn't he try and "lecture" me on the definition of the word "slavery"? as if I don't know it.

Where did you hear him "on television in person"? It's not that I don't believe you, but that in itself isn't much as it can be easily misstated. It's certainly not on the same level as written proposals, which have already been misconstrued, and I doubt actually very well scrutinized or even read. I saw both the offending language that's been cited, as well fine print which mostly reveals that it isn't much different from anything we have already.

Well who can say, as I tried pointing out before, policy doesn't come from an abyss, if this idea is merely floating about there as I said, then a strong negative reaction from the public could kill this thing before its even attempted to push this idea. The best time to kill a policy is at the intellectual stage before its proposed and definitely before its enacted. What do you think the public should do? Shut up and get what they're given and only after they're given it maybe complain about it and try to change things after the fact? As for where I seen it, I seen him on a website whose name I forget unfortunately but also on youtube. Maybe Obama will never implement this and then you can say I was talking nonsense, but maybe the reaction of people to this idea is what stopped it from coming about which is what will allow you mock people like me. What would you've said if 8-9 years ago I'd said that there were ideas in place to allow unrestricted domestic surveillance of all US citizens by government intelligence agencies without any form of court approval or supervision. The Patriot Act wasn't a new idea, all the ideas in it had been around for a long time before 9/11 was used to push through ideas that had nothing to do with that event but were a shopping list of things government agencies had wanted for years. Rohm's comparison of this idea to the Patriot only makes me more relaxed in criticising it.

That's exactly why this is all much ado about nothing. I'm laughing in your face about it as I would in Obama's if he tried it; it's just not going to happen. The outcry over the internet innuendo is enough that you can imagine what would happen in the mainstream. Also, speaking of how American policy is formed and starting one's presidency, it makes no sense for how Obama would want to start his administration from a "day 1" political standpoint. He'd immediately alienate his coalition and in fact lose power, and they've been a very controlled, safe, and media savvy organization thus far. They're going to want to control not only what they do, but when they do it, so as to control what gets in the papers as the story of his administration. Clinton's big mistake was doing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" the same day he did the the popular Medical Leave Act, the first bill he signed I believe. Of course, that positive policy was ignored for the hysteria over the controversial one. Basically, it doesn't make sense for Obama to make such a grand move, and mistake, when there's so much else to be done which is no lose for him. You can't have it both ways where you lecture on the politics of policymaking on the one hand and ignore it on the other. In any case, I'd appreciate being "felt out" as opposed to the unilateral action we've grown accustomed to in the past eight years. It does in fact bode well for things.

Well okay, hopefully it’ll stay at the stage where you laugh at my face and not Obama’s, I’d prefer that rather than having things like this come about. There are people who go overboard on the internet and indeed everywhere and if you think I’m one of them fair enough but the opposite of that. Only reacting to events after the fact or not reacting at all seems to me more flawed than overreacting. As for the point you make, firstly do you realise you invalidate your point by saying it’s absurd and then showing that Clinton did it? Here’s a news flash for you, it’s not just the Bush Admin. that does stupid things even if they take it to new heights, governments do stupid things and anyway where did I say Obama would do this day 1? I don’t care if he does it in his fourth year after building up a base of support for it after having a voluntary scheme first. Day 1 or day 10,000 is all the same to me.

As for your last point, sure sending out feelers is a good idea, it can show when you’re deep in a Washington bubble fantasy world. It’s better than just dumping ideas out in the form of policy and not giving people the opportunity to respond to an idea before it comes into being. But that’s only meaningful in the context of what I’ve been saying these last few posts, that when such a “feeler” is put out you DO get a strong reaction and hopefully kill an idea at the point of conception. I’m not saying I expect Obama to be the worst President in US history, I don’t, I still reserve that role for Woodrow Wilson, I’m simply saying that things aren’t good and it seems they’re going to get worse. I don’t expect anything new from Obama just a change in magnitude of existing systems within the Washington setup. In as much as I say Obama is Fascist like or Socialist like, I put that within a system that already is like that in many different ways, his Admin. merely moves closer to those systems, he’s not breaking away in a whole new direction, just like Bush.

Gee, and what do ya know... =)

I know what I know, what more could I know?

 

[Griffith]

What would you've said if 8-9 years ago I'd said that there were ideas in place to allow unrestricted domestic surveillance of all US citizens by government intelligence agencies without any form of court approval or supervision. The Patriot Act wasn't a new idea, all the ideas in it had been around for a long time before 9/11 was used to push through ideas that had nothing to do with that event but were a shopping list of things government agencies had wanted for years.

What makes you think that's news to me or anyone for you to tell? Really, don't be so assuming and patronizing, even if it's unintentional. And to be honest, after this, I'm not inclined to take much of what you say at face value, as this entire discussion as framed was predicated on a number of falsehoods and misinformation; starting with literature falsely attributed to Obama, followed by conjecture, rumor, innuendo, assumptions, and just plain delusions. Whether it was your intention to misrepresent the reality or urgency of the situation or not, that's the credibility you've established here. Frankly, I'm considering deleting the whole thing save for Ramen's links, which have all the information, but presented honestly and in perspective, with restraint and respect to all parties while still maintaining a healthy and reasonable caution concerning the possible implications for the Obama administration.

Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to sleep.

 

[Sanguinius]

I'll save you the trouble.