Episode 370
- Thread starter Aazealh
- Start date
I hadn’t considered it quite like that, but yeah… He should have a lot of conflicting emotions here. The boy transforming into Griffith didn’t phase him in the moment or the aftermath.
After seeing all the clusterfuck that has piled up since Berserk's revival, I have to question whether Miura actually told Mori anything about how the rest of the series would proceed. Almost everything I've seen looks like a well-drawn (but poorly written) fanfic; nothing like what or how Miura would've written.
I don't want to think that, that Miura's friend would do something literally worse than spit on his grave.
And I don't think we have a reason to believe such. Sure, the episodes are bad, but it's not Miura's fault at the end of the day. When people heard about plans, I think, they created way too lofty expectations. You shouldn't look at the episode to episode flow, but more at the bigger picture. This "batch" of episodes might have been just like: "After Griffith comes, a fight breaks out. Zodd arrives and even "the true residents of the island", and Guts, his group and the Elves try to defend themselves. Amid the chaos, Casca is taken, and Guts can't do anything to him. They end up having to evacuate. Guts left literally at the lowest point of his whole story."
And course, Mori and co ended turning out something subpar, partly because they don't have all the details and Mori refuses to make shit up, partly because you just can't replace a genius. But under Miura, it would have been way different, while still hitting the same plot points.
Imagine the Birth Ceremony chapter being like:
"Okay okay mori so I watched the Name of the Rose. Given Berserk's setting, I want to do something kinda inspired by that. Like in the crusades. The main antagonist should be a priest. I want him to be sort of funny until shit gets serious, so I'm going to give him a weird design, I think. The church wants Casca to burn her at the stake because they think she's a witch. She escaped and ended up in that situation somehow, and of course Guts will chase after her. In the final confrontation against the priest, he goes full apostle. It would be interesting if he believed himself to be some sort of angel. I'm going to give him wings. And the climax is the tower falling apart and Griffith getting incarnated."
Same thing in the end, but how different would it have been under mori's direction. Just imagine how any previous Arc/Chapter would have been like under Mori, following a summary. Bet you wouldn't have liked them very much. But it would have still been from miura.
It's just more proof that ideas are cheaper than table salt. The execution is what matters.
Well that's for fucking sure.
That's not the readers' fault. It's on the people who decided to launch this continuation like they did. Hakusensha, Young Animal's editorial department, and yes, Mori and the Studio Gaga staff. It's on them. They're calling this Berserk. They're pretending it's continuing "like nothing happened". That's an irredeemable decision.
I am not saying it's anyone's fault, lol (people who know about Miura's workflow definitively shouldn't have expected this to be written like Miura left behind a super detailed outline though). Sure, we should have gotten an actual illustrated summary, instead of them pretending this is a proper continuation. But we know it's not. So I'm just saying people would be happier seeing it for what it is. Looking at the overall picture and not too hard at the details, because Miura is not there to fill them out and Mori is sticking to his word. I don't want people to see this new Berserk and be so frustrated by the poor job they've been doing as to blame Miura so to speak. Decide they couldn't be his ideas or even worse, this continuation damaging Berserk's reputation like with GOT, as if because it got a bad execution means the ideas were bad in the first place. Gil said it's nothing like what Miura would have written, but I can see the overall beats coming from him. Just very differently executed. Obviously.
As such I think I'm literally just going to read summaries from now on and use my imagination for the rest.
No one has blamed Miura for these, that's a preposterous notion.
Re-reading the episodes "Spring Flowers of Distant Days" where we see Guts before meeting the Band of the Hawk when he encounters a flower spirit named Chich, I wonder what the purpose of including this 3-part flashback was? While the death of the flower and disappearance of Chich and the death of the tree and the disappearance of the ethereal creatures on Elfhelm (save Puck and Ivalera) seem to share little in common, it still seems as if there was meant to be some kind of connection or relation between the two phenomena or story themes, because it does not seem like there's enough story left the way we are moving towards the end that would pay off what we saw being set up with Chich if it wasn't that. Maybe the point of Chich was so that Guts would meet her again if the disappearance of Danan and the Elfhelm creatures is resolved by bringing them back somehow from wherever they went, but what impact would that really have on Guts? He didn't seem to pay any attention to Danan or the creatures disappearing and was not even really there to witness it, it's hard to imagine him caring that much with everything else going on, much less about re-encountering an entity he encountered long ago in his early teens.
I also wonder if we were meant to take away anything else from those flashback episodes and the way they were placed right before Guts would finally reach Elfhelm. Guts learns, and recalls, a harsh lesson in how you either betray and look out for yourself or you get used and betrayed by others on the battlefield. We never really see Guts reflect that much on Gambino's "fatherly" advice or have it come back in the present story. So unless that was merely intended to remind the reader of Guts' early attitude and that he would be betrayed also by Griffith, I wonder if we will see Guts ever contemplate betraying or "using" the people who are currently by his side? The behelit he carries comes to mind, assuming it can activate for a branded person, but it seems unlikely something like that would happen right at the end of an arc (or the beginning of one), not to mention Miura would not write Guts to betray or "use" his companions THAT way but another way if Guts going selfish again was ever in the cards. Although, as crazy as it sounds, IF Guts is meant to use the behelit then that might explain why the Gnawers did not attack him and instead asked him something. Maybe they sensed that he was ordained by causality to rise above branded sacrifice, similar to how Griffith had premonitions and strange encounters with creatures before his behelit opened... I dunno, but something like that might explain why Mori and Studio Gaga bothered (and even remembered) with that otherwise seemingly irrelevant bit with the Gnawers.
But thinking about this, I now realize I have another question. Let's ignore any speculation about Guts' beherit for the moment and consider the existence of behelits themselves in Fantasia. Do they still work the same after the planes merged? Are Apostles still being created around the world since the beginning of Fantasia by use of behelits and sacrifices? And how would that work for Griffith exactly who has incarnated into the physical plane, does he still get pulled into those ceremonies on a regular basis or at all? I imagine that might be almost as inconvenient as turning into the Moonlight boy if he happens to be right in the middle of something when someone's behelit activates. But maybe only the other 4 members of the Godhand would participate in such ceremonies after Femto incarnated? Also, come to think of it, what do they need Apostles for and how many would be the bare minimum for whatever purpose they serve? Do they already have enough or have Guts had any impact on that front as he's been slaying quite a few of them?
But even if Guts is not meant to use the behelit, the fact that he is in a place of hopelessness and despair at the moment should still be thematically relevant. Did Miura intend to explore the despair of someone who would not even receive the "gift" (or curse) of a behelit helping them, and how they'd get out of it on their own? Perhaps to contrast with the weakness of those who take the offer of the Godhand....except it wouldn't be as strong a comparison since the "seductive" element wouldn't be there and someone like Griffith was also in worse shape than Guts for a morality tale of that sort to be convincing. Still, the idea of Guts' current mental state being on par with those who are ordained by causality to become Apostles I think should be explored even if, and perhaps especially if, the behelit does not activate. The story has moved away quite a bit from this theme or idea of humans being seduced by demons that seemed to be a major one at the start of Berserk, so potentially getting back to more of that would be interesting to me and make the story more consistent in its overall structure. We have not seen any ceremony when an Apostle is created apart from brief flashbacks, except for Griffith - which was also a flashback and dealt with a Godhand ascension rather than Apostle creation. I think we all expected to get more flashbacks of that kind (origin stories of established Apostles and Godhand members) - especially from the time of Gaiseric (which we already did get) - of these eclipse like events, but would we ever get one in real time?
Now, about the inconsistency or "out of character" aspect of Guts as he does not even attempt to move while being carried onto the boat in this episode. Could the barytes have anything to do with it? Ged said "when they gather, they make things heavy, ... and bring on depression or obsession to the mind" which sounds like what Guts is currently experiencing. Are the barytes connected to causality and is there a similar "agency" to them that a person with depression or obsession is more like a passive victim to them than the barytes or causality is a medium through which a person's agency is expressed? I assume "causality" in the world of Berserk is not the same as the cause and effect of our world, that it is not simply random but acts with some sort of purpose and possibly through the use of barytes (almost like an "infection" since elementals seem to have agency and are not just passive forces of nature).
Speaking of barytes, I like the theory going around that the Berserker armor works through barytes elementals and the reason it didn't activate (and possibly can't activate in proximity to Griffith) is because Griffith swallows the barytes into his torrent. It would be a neat way for Miura to have Guts not lose his mind to the armor whenever he confronts Griffith towards the end of the story. That way we could have dialogue that Miura surely intended between them and not just mindless striking. I guess most people assume Guts would master the armor so as to not lose himself when finally confronting Griffith towards the end, but I think Guts might actually use the "non-threat" of the armor when in close proximity to Griffith to his advantage or something. The armor is useful when confronted with monsters and Apostles, but it seems unlikely to really add anything to a fight with the actual Godhand members, so having it be automatically disabled in such situations might be a blessing. We know what happened to King Gaiseric when using it against the Godhand.
Which begs the question, assuming this theory is accurate, whether King Gaiseric was in control of himself at that moment we saw in the ancient Eclipse flashback or if he "lost himself to the armor." And IF he was of relative sound mind, was that due to his own control or was it the Godhand members prevented the armor from taking over Gaiseric's mind as well? He does appear to have the helmet on, but so have Guts on multiple occasions without being in "berserker mode."
Anyway, going back to the recent fight between Guts and Griffith, we see a panel that looks like Griffith noticing the Beast of Darkness. I wonder if this is something Griffith picked up on while possibly absorbing barytes elementals from the Berserker armor, just poorly drawn or conveyed by Studio Gaga without Miura? If he is drawing in elementals that bring on things like "obsession of the mind" then it is not farfetched that he would sense the rage coming from the armor during such an instance. Maybe Griffith will reflect on or comment on it at some point.
By the way, a note on Casca's brand not spraying blood in such close proximity to a member of the Godhand... Was this not already an inconsistency back during the eclipse when Femto raped Casca? Her brand didn't do more than bleed a little back then either.
I also wonder if we were meant to take away anything else from those flashback episodes and the way they were placed right before Guts would finally reach Elfhelm. Guts learns, and recalls, a harsh lesson in how you either betray and look out for yourself or you get used and betrayed by others on the battlefield. We never really see Guts reflect that much on Gambino's "fatherly" advice or have it come back in the present story. So unless that was merely intended to remind the reader of Guts' early attitude and that he would be betrayed also by Griffith, I wonder if we will see Guts ever contemplate betraying or "using" the people who are currently by his side? The behelit he carries comes to mind, assuming it can activate for a branded person, but it seems unlikely something like that would happen right at the end of an arc (or the beginning of one), not to mention Miura would not write Guts to betray or "use" his companions THAT way but another way if Guts going selfish again was ever in the cards. Although, as crazy as it sounds, IF Guts is meant to use the behelit then that might explain why the Gnawers did not attack him and instead asked him something. Maybe they sensed that he was ordained by causality to rise above branded sacrifice, similar to how Griffith had premonitions and strange encounters with creatures before his behelit opened... I dunno, but something like that might explain why Mori and Studio Gaga bothered (and even remembered) with that otherwise seemingly irrelevant bit with the Gnawers.
But thinking about this, I now realize I have another question. Let's ignore any speculation about Guts' beherit for the moment and consider the existence of behelits themselves in Fantasia. Do they still work the same after the planes merged? Are Apostles still being created around the world since the beginning of Fantasia by use of behelits and sacrifices? And how would that work for Griffith exactly who has incarnated into the physical plane, does he still get pulled into those ceremonies on a regular basis or at all? I imagine that might be almost as inconvenient as turning into the Moonlight boy if he happens to be right in the middle of something when someone's behelit activates. But maybe only the other 4 members of the Godhand would participate in such ceremonies after Femto incarnated? Also, come to think of it, what do they need Apostles for and how many would be the bare minimum for whatever purpose they serve? Do they already have enough or have Guts had any impact on that front as he's been slaying quite a few of them?
But even if Guts is not meant to use the behelit, the fact that he is in a place of hopelessness and despair at the moment should still be thematically relevant. Did Miura intend to explore the despair of someone who would not even receive the "gift" (or curse) of a behelit helping them, and how they'd get out of it on their own? Perhaps to contrast with the weakness of those who take the offer of the Godhand....except it wouldn't be as strong a comparison since the "seductive" element wouldn't be there and someone like Griffith was also in worse shape than Guts for a morality tale of that sort to be convincing. Still, the idea of Guts' current mental state being on par with those who are ordained by causality to become Apostles I think should be explored even if, and perhaps especially if, the behelit does not activate. The story has moved away quite a bit from this theme or idea of humans being seduced by demons that seemed to be a major one at the start of Berserk, so potentially getting back to more of that would be interesting to me and make the story more consistent in its overall structure. We have not seen any ceremony when an Apostle is created apart from brief flashbacks, except for Griffith - which was also a flashback and dealt with a Godhand ascension rather than Apostle creation. I think we all expected to get more flashbacks of that kind (origin stories of established Apostles and Godhand members) - especially from the time of Gaiseric (which we already did get) - of these eclipse like events, but would we ever get one in real time?
Now, about the inconsistency or "out of character" aspect of Guts as he does not even attempt to move while being carried onto the boat in this episode. Could the barytes have anything to do with it? Ged said "when they gather, they make things heavy, ... and bring on depression or obsession to the mind" which sounds like what Guts is currently experiencing. Are the barytes connected to causality and is there a similar "agency" to them that a person with depression or obsession is more like a passive victim to them than the barytes or causality is a medium through which a person's agency is expressed? I assume "causality" in the world of Berserk is not the same as the cause and effect of our world, that it is not simply random but acts with some sort of purpose and possibly through the use of barytes (almost like an "infection" since elementals seem to have agency and are not just passive forces of nature).
Speaking of barytes, I like the theory going around that the Berserker armor works through barytes elementals and the reason it didn't activate (and possibly can't activate in proximity to Griffith) is because Griffith swallows the barytes into his torrent. It would be a neat way for Miura to have Guts not lose his mind to the armor whenever he confronts Griffith towards the end of the story. That way we could have dialogue that Miura surely intended between them and not just mindless striking. I guess most people assume Guts would master the armor so as to not lose himself when finally confronting Griffith towards the end, but I think Guts might actually use the "non-threat" of the armor when in close proximity to Griffith to his advantage or something. The armor is useful when confronted with monsters and Apostles, but it seems unlikely to really add anything to a fight with the actual Godhand members, so having it be automatically disabled in such situations might be a blessing. We know what happened to King Gaiseric when using it against the Godhand.
Which begs the question, assuming this theory is accurate, whether King Gaiseric was in control of himself at that moment we saw in the ancient Eclipse flashback or if he "lost himself to the armor." And IF he was of relative sound mind, was that due to his own control or was it the Godhand members prevented the armor from taking over Gaiseric's mind as well? He does appear to have the helmet on, but so have Guts on multiple occasions without being in "berserker mode."
Anyway, going back to the recent fight between Guts and Griffith, we see a panel that looks like Griffith noticing the Beast of Darkness. I wonder if this is something Griffith picked up on while possibly absorbing barytes elementals from the Berserker armor, just poorly drawn or conveyed by Studio Gaga without Miura? If he is drawing in elementals that bring on things like "obsession of the mind" then it is not farfetched that he would sense the rage coming from the armor during such an instance. Maybe Griffith will reflect on or comment on it at some point.
By the way, a note on Casca's brand not spraying blood in such close proximity to a member of the Godhand... Was this not already an inconsistency back during the eclipse when Femto raped Casca? Her brand didn't do more than bleed a little back then either.
Miura said at the time that he had wanted to show a bit of Guts' journey during that period for a long time. He also wanted to explain why Guts is uneasy around Puck when they first meet, repeatedly telling him not to touch him.
When we first saw that little segment of the story, it was immediately apparent to me that Chich's nature as an elf tied to a flower was significant and that it might perhaps relate to the Sovereign of the Flower Storm. So yes, I think it was something Miura intended to do, but his untimely passing meant we did not get to see it. What's left to be told of the story doesn't really factor into this, since we also will not get to see what Miura intended to do. It will at best be a dumbed down approximation of some of the major beats.
I don't think so. It's implied Chich passed away.
I recommend you to refrain from ascribing too much importance to character reactions (or absence of reaction) in the continuation of the story by Mori and Studio Gaga. Keep in mind it's – at best – a shadow of what Miura would have done.
Yes, that'd be for the best. I don't think Guts is going to sacrifice someone (reminder: Casca is already branded) just so he can become an official, causality-ordained minion of the God Hand.
When Balzac summons the God Hand in the Dreamcast game, Femto is not among them. So no, Femto hasn't been involved in those ceremonies since he was incarnated. Not that it matters much. As for whether apostles are still being created using beherits or not... Same thing, really. It could matter in the long run, but it's not an immediate concern in the story. I'd say there are more important questions, like if more apostles are needed at all, or if their production might not end up being "industrialized" in Falconia eventually.
Characters feeling despair isn't exactly novel in Berserk... And it doesn't always lead them to become apostles. I don't find this train of thought to be very pertinent.
Practically the entirety of mankind is currently enthralled by Griffith and living in the fantasy city, fashioned in his image, that he conjured up. He's both their military leader and main religious figure as well as de facto ruler. So I'd say the theme of "humans being seduced by demons" is stronger now than ever.
We see how it works in volume 3. Personally I've never felt that we were missing on it or anything.
No, absolutely not.
I don't think that's correct, from what we know of the story and how things work in Berserk's world.
Seems completely far-fetched to me. If that were what happened, I think we've have seen a hint of power being sapped away from the armor, which isn't how it went. Besides, it doesn't seem like using the armor would have made much of a difference against Griffith in that particular context. Striking faster and stronger doesn't matter if you can't hit the target. Which gets me to the obvious point: the maelstrom around Griffith is why he's untouchable, it's not merely to prevent that one magic armor from activating.
As before, I would caution against trying to find deep meaning in the minute details of those episodes. Keep in mind Mori and the staff only know a bit of what Miura intended to do, and they don't necessarily know how he meant to do it either.
That doesn't seem like a very interesting development at all to me. If your thought is that they ought to have a talk, then there's many other and better ways for it to happen than "your armor can't activate because my magic powers block it!"
I'd say the armor would be more useful than not even in a fight against the God Hand (provided Guts can land a hit). It's not like his previous fights against them with his older gear have gone very well.
We don't know all that much about it, actually.
As stated earlier, I recommend you to refrain from ascribing too much importance to character reactions (or absence of reaction) in the continuation of the story by Mori and Studio Gaga.
No, it's not. During the Eclipse, you can actually see the brand start to bleed over time, from panel to panel, as it becomes active.
Do you have the source for that? All I found was Miura's comment in YA translated by puella where he mentioned the second thing, but not the first one about having wanted to show a bit of Guts' journey during that period for a long time.
[2012 #12] The Spring Flower of Days Long Passed (1)
I always had a mind to draw the reason Guts doesn't like elves one day. With the release of the movie, I thought it's a good chance (to do it).
Those 3 episodes, however, did not really convey that Guts ended up disliking elves... Or, at least, that's not what I took away from them. I thought the reason he didn't like being touched by Puck back in the day was for the same reason he didn't like anyone touching him, because of his childhood trauma.
Right, but do you think Danan might have been the only one to disappear if Miura did it, and right as the tree died? The confrontation with Griffith was already set to happen at the end of the last episode Miura did, and given the tree dies pretty soon afterwards as the island falls apart it seems like it would still happen too quickly for it to give Danan anything but a very abrupt and sudden end. Unless the island was meant to fall apart a bit later, but I'm not sure a scenario where anything other than the presence of a God Hand member would cause such cataclysmic damage to the place.
Well I wonder about that, since these episodes are so close to where Miura left off. And he supposedly had similar talks with his assistants and editor as he did Mori. It seems odd that they would be left with only a bit of what Miura intended to do right off the bat, especially when you also consider comments in interviews such as this one:
- What are your future plans for Berserk?
Miura: The story of Berserk is at the point where the story begins to fold. Guts and Griffith will face off, and the God Hand will come out more and more. I know it has been a long time coming, but please look forward to it. We are also deciding on the landmarks for the future development. I am sure it will change in the future, but I have already planned the second half of the fairy island, so I will start from there.
I underlined the part where he says "we" are also "deciding on the landmarks for the future development." Who are "we" in this context?
So the implication is that when the brand is fresh it doesn't bleed as much because it takes a while to become active? Or do you mean something else, like the brand has an initial reaction and then stops? Because Casca's brand appears to stop bleeding in episode 87 after the initial blood drips from it in episode 86.
Well what you found is the part that matters, isn't it? For the time period, I believe I was thinking of the announcement for that flashback, but it's not from Miura himself so it can be disregarded. Still, he stated why he did that segment, so that answers your original question. And it also happens to be really great, which suffices in and of itself. It doesn't need a special purpose beyond that.
Letting Chich help him led to her death, that's why.
Maybe. Maybe not. However it certainly would have been done differently.
You're halfway there. Even if we stick to the same scenario, the timing of events could have changed. In fact, I'd say it's likely it would have. That we would have at least seen more resistance from the island's inhabitants, Danan included. Griffith may simply have triggered the Gnawers, and they could have slowly emerged and progressed, with the events still ongoing long after he had left. Furthermore, Danan might not have disappeared right as the tree did, even then. She isn't your average elf. There's many ways in which it might have differed, and it could have made a huge difference in the final result. And that's assuming the events themselves would have mostly been the same, which isn't guaranteed at all.
Do you wonder about it, really? Have you looked at these episodes closely? Do they seem to you like they faithfully mirror what Miura would have done? If so, that's shocking to me, and I would encourage you to read my posts on the matter in each of the relevant threads. It is quite clear to me that they either were missing a lot of details or did not know how to interpret and convey them. Or both.
Also, I wouldn't say that Miura really had the same kind of talks with his assistants and editor as those he did with Mori. I know they word it like that in the announcement for the continuation, but if you look in more detail at what they say, they emphasize he discussed various ideas in day to day conversations, stuff that wouldn't necessarily end up in Berserk. It's pretty different from the "consultations" he would have with Mori. You can argue his assistants and editor may have known some of the things that were going to happen in the coming episodes, but then, that's what I said. I'm sure they did, but at the end of the day, it's just not enough. For any doubts you have, my answer is: look at what they've produced.
I would also advise you to be cautious with translations that don't come from us. I've seen a lot of persistent misunderstandings arise from bad translations over the past 20 years. Use common sense.
...Since I'm exceedingly nice, I guess I'll tell you directly: there's no "we" in that sentence. What you pasted here was produced by machine translation. It's not reliable.
Yes. Same for the other brands. From Theresia's mother to Gaizeric's lover.
There is certainly a lack of details with some things appearing to be missing, things are less competently drawn, events are moving faster than before, and dialogue is questionable since that would be the least likely for Miura to have conveyed to Mori or anyone else. But it would certainly baffle me if Miura did not mention once to anyone whether the armor would activate in the upcoming episodes or not and why or that Danan would die if the tree died if that was the intent. Those are things I would assume would be the most likely to have been brought up in conversations and for Mori, the staff or the editor to remember. Unless there were disagreements or something and Mori said "sorry guys, you may have heard something like that but I don't remember it so we're not doing it that way."
The one major plot beat that seems most questionable to me is the disappearance of the Merrows and Isma since they were not from Elf island. Other than that I haven't found anything necessarily wrong with the overall direction things are moving, other than, as mentioned, the pacing, the dialogue, the finer details, etc. Having said that, in terms of drama I still liked the sense of emptiness we're left with after the Merrows also disappeared from the ocean, it's just that it's hard to make sense of them also disappearing.
I wonder if we will get any further comments by Mori or the staff now that the last episode of the Elf island chapter will be published and we enter the next part of the story. I think we're about due for some kind of comment, update or explanation from them regarding what they've produced so far. Walter previously posted a link to what Japanese audience were saying on this page, but the link did not work for me.
Thanks for clarifying the "we" not being accurate in that interview by the way. I didn't know a resource site would publish a machine translation.