Walter said:I think you misunderstood the dream, Mage.
karsa said:Maybe he thought you might go read the manga/ watch the anime again to see if there was another way of interpreting it.
But anyway.
In the dream, Griffith is still broken. We only see him in shadow, he's sitting down, he doesn't move the whole time, Caska is waiting on him. Stuff's happening in the outside world and Griffith is inside, in shadow. He doesn't reply even though Caska talks to him, he has a blanket over his knees, Caska's even spoon-feeding him for god's sake. This isn't a fantasy of what Griffith yearns for, it's a nightmare of what will happen if things carry on as they are (I think him hearing Caska talking to Gatts happens before this). I probably missed out some of the finer metaphorical points of the dream which reinforce this.
Seriously, for a man like Griffith, even if he wasn't incapacitated, living a quiet life with a wife and child when he's dreaming of his own kingdom would be disappointing to say the least. And to be so totally dependent, knowing Caska might secretly be resenting giving up her life to care for Griffith... all this is alot to do with why he attempts suicide.
Whew, alright. That's the only thing I had a problem with. And that was MY fault in reading your post wrong.if it seemed like I was implying Griffith tried to commit suicide because he knew he wouldn't have that particular life with Caska, that's not what I think.
Mage said:If he was horrified by the dream, he himself didn't show it, and he wouldn't have been surprised by how pleasant it was, though I agree it was the opposite of his own personal dream/ambition and it was his view of a possible future. Whether he found it nightmarish or not, however, I feel is shown by his last words in the dream.
<<Hmmm...I don't know. I think he meant Guts becoming more important than his dream and realizing he actually was his friend. >>
2. Griffith's Rescue: Caska is getting whingy about her feelings for Griffith and her jealousy of Charlotte. Gatts, understandably, gets a bit upset that she's still wrapped up by Griffith. But, at the same time, he says, "And what really hurts, is the part of me that thinks I can't do anything about it. Because the one who can't get Griffith out of his mind is me!"
<<That's because Guts is thinking about what Casca told him about the night they did it. >>
Yet what does Gatts do? He turns around and tries to save Griffith.
<<Griffith was crippled. There was no way Griffith would have made it out alive without his help.>>
<<However, more importantly this scene shows a distinct trait in Guts character: he's doesn't accept reality in extreme cases. Griffith sold him out but he doesn't wanna believe it just like he doesn't wanna beleive Gambino was a scumbag.>>
<<How many people would opening accept having their friends killed and their woman being raped right in front of them? Revenge is just human nature especially if the mofo got off scott free.>>
I feel sorry for Casca. The two men she loves are both completely wrapped around eachother.
<<I think she should get her own dream.>>
<<Griffith was the catalyst for his realization of wanting something for himself.>>
<<It's is his dream and that's all he can pretty much do with his life. His life is an ongoing mini Eclipse what's he gonna do? Get a 9 to 5? It's ride or die for Guts.>>
typhonblue said:Casca would be dead without Judea. What would she be without Gatts?
Casca would be dead without Judea. What would she be without Gatts?
<<Also dead.>>
It's the context. He is agitated by the fact he can't get Griffith out of his mind. He feels he can't stop Casca from thinking about Griffith because *he* can't stop thinking about Griffith. Specifically what he meant *to* Griffith. It's the conflict he's feeling that's the issue here. His conflict is in direct parallel to the conflict Casca's feeling over him and Griffith. That's why he's feeling helpless to stop her conflict, because he can't stop his own.
If you re-read that section, you'll see that Casca is mere feet away from a monster that's shreding armoured men like confettii. Griffith however is blissing out in the amniotic fluid of evil, protected from his surroundings. Gatts made a choice. He chose to stay near Griffith. Even tho Griffith was in no immediate danger.
Judea on the other hand made the choice to try and save Casca. I think Casca should have ended up with Judea. DAMN! ARGH! (Well... maybe Farnese, now. Seripico-Farnese-Casca wouldn't be too bad... But Farnese is straight and has a crush on Gatts... Goddamn, too many people are fixated on Gatts...)
Do you know what happens when you love someone? It's really hard to believe they've fucked you over. You want to give them every opportunity to prove you wrong.
I'm re-reading the manga again (only the third time this month! My psychiatrist says I'm getting better...) and when I was going through the eclipse scene I noticed something I hadn't seen before. Third Chapter, thirteenth volume, just after Gatts is through slaughtering a baker's dozen of demons, there's a brief slowdown in the action and he looks back at Griffith. I like to call this the "kicked puppy look". I think that expression speaks volumes.
I'm with Godo on this one. I don't think Gatts has the right to avenge anyone's pain. Except his own of course.
As far as I'm concerned Casca was more Judea's woman then Gatts. Where was Gatts when Casca needed saving? Where was Judea? Right beside her, defending her with his life. Casca would be dead without Judea. What would she be without Gatts? Less tormented.
Does Gatts even know what he wants? Godo said it himself "Don't let that bastard be like me." Godo was swinging a hammer before he could walk, he never had the chance to find his own dream. He just did what was expected of him. Gatts is the same way. He's still doing what he did as a kid, doing what daddy tells him to do. Fighting so he can one day get noticed by God or whatever father figure he's fixated on. That's what I mean when I say he isn't his own man. He may be a damn good fighter, but is he really doing it for himself or someone else?
A dream is something you have despite your circumstances, not because of them.
Mizar said:I have one thing to add about Guts decision to go for Griffith. I don't think he did it because he 'chose' Griffith over Caska.
I think he was just going straight for the root of the problem. If he could reach or talk to Griffith he could maybe convince him to stop the killing and save all the remaining people.