Thats kinda true I guess about the Wizard thing but I feel kinda insulted but it doesn't bother me much cause I can balance on one hand for about a minute so I guess I am in shape. Haven't seen it but maybe I'll check it out. Thx Walter for all the info and sometime this week I'll send some pictures I drew of Guts and Zodd just to see what you guys think.
Who is the best swordsman after Guts?
- Thread starter eintrigga
- Start date
Okay, I have a few things to add, that I don't think have been said already (in this thread).
Argument(s) against Serpico's worth:
---------------------------------
* Okay - the guy catches Gatts in a situation where he, through good planning, has pretty much ALL the advantages he could ask for: narrow ledge, afternoon sun, left/right hand, etc. Any more advantages, and he'd practically be an assassin (catching people in their sleep). He gets thrashed, and barely escapes with his life.
* At this point, I think it is safe to assume that Serpico wouldn't last very long in a more balanced scenario, say, facing off against Gatts the way Griffith did, both times. I have a hard time seeing Serpico go hand to hand with Gatts, the way Griffith did with young Gatts, taking several punches to the face. That kind of versatility and fighting spirit really puts Griff several peg holes above the likes of Serpico. Go, block-turned-critical-armlock guy!
* Nobody in their right mind would deny that the man's fast, smart, and able to think in his stride. But he doesn't really stike me as a really versatile powerhouse of a fighter, able to deal AND take punishment for prolonged periods of time. One of his real strengths seems to be his awareness of his limits.
* Personal note: I imagine Gatts would have been in a world of trouble, had it been, say, mortal Griffith on that ledge, swinging his sabre at a Gatts unable to draw his sword or use his repeater crossbow.
Argument in favor of Casca's worth:
----------------------------------
* It was the general opinion of the hawks that Casca was 'stronger' than both Pippin and Judaeu.
* It seems to me Casca's real weakness
is/was her erratic level of performance. Sure, it's hard to argue that she's up there with Gascogne, Gatts, Griffith et al, but my impression is that she's a very capable fighter.
Had her confidence and focus been better, I think she'd been able to match Silatt, and possibly Serpico too. Of course, always being the runner-up is not good for any fighter's confidence.
Poor Casca.
General personal opinions:
-------------------------
* I agree with the fraction in favor of Boscogne as the second most powerful human fighter. But to me, it's a very open race between Boscogne, Azan and human Griffith. Silatt... I don't know. I tend to agree with Gatts himself - he'd make a great bunko artist. He's fast and versatile, but doesn't seem to have much of a fighting spirit. Heck, I bet Casca would've beaten him back in the day, even if Gatts hadn't appeared. I like that in Casca; she has a lot of comeback potential in her, as seen in her flight from the century killing. Go, twig-in-eye girl!
Argument(s) against Serpico's worth:
---------------------------------
* Okay - the guy catches Gatts in a situation where he, through good planning, has pretty much ALL the advantages he could ask for: narrow ledge, afternoon sun, left/right hand, etc. Any more advantages, and he'd practically be an assassin (catching people in their sleep). He gets thrashed, and barely escapes with his life.
* At this point, I think it is safe to assume that Serpico wouldn't last very long in a more balanced scenario, say, facing off against Gatts the way Griffith did, both times. I have a hard time seeing Serpico go hand to hand with Gatts, the way Griffith did with young Gatts, taking several punches to the face. That kind of versatility and fighting spirit really puts Griff several peg holes above the likes of Serpico. Go, block-turned-critical-armlock guy!
* Nobody in their right mind would deny that the man's fast, smart, and able to think in his stride. But he doesn't really stike me as a really versatile powerhouse of a fighter, able to deal AND take punishment for prolonged periods of time. One of his real strengths seems to be his awareness of his limits.
* Personal note: I imagine Gatts would have been in a world of trouble, had it been, say, mortal Griffith on that ledge, swinging his sabre at a Gatts unable to draw his sword or use his repeater crossbow.
Argument in favor of Casca's worth:
----------------------------------
* It was the general opinion of the hawks that Casca was 'stronger' than both Pippin and Judaeu.
* It seems to me Casca's real weakness
is/was her erratic level of performance. Sure, it's hard to argue that she's up there with Gascogne, Gatts, Griffith et al, but my impression is that she's a very capable fighter.
Had her confidence and focus been better, I think she'd been able to match Silatt, and possibly Serpico too. Of course, always being the runner-up is not good for any fighter's confidence.
Poor Casca.
General personal opinions:
-------------------------
* I agree with the fraction in favor of Boscogne as the second most powerful human fighter. But to me, it's a very open race between Boscogne, Azan and human Griffith. Silatt... I don't know. I tend to agree with Gatts himself - he'd make a great bunko artist. He's fast and versatile, but doesn't seem to have much of a fighting spirit. Heck, I bet Casca would've beaten him back in the day, even if Gatts hadn't appeared. I like that in Casca; she has a lot of comeback potential in her, as seen in her flight from the century killing. Go, twig-in-eye girl!
M
medievald00d
Guest
thanks for reviving the ol' Serpico vs. Guts debate...
Well first of all, Serpico wasn't thrashed. He was completely untouched and cut Guts' face.
I don't get why you're completely relating strength with fighting ability. Pippin is physically stronger than Gut's, but he would get annihilated in a fight.
The usefulness of speed is also greatly exaggerated in comics and cartoons, so you shouldn't underestimate people like Serpico.
Look at the fights:
Boscogne: Screwed over by Zodd's interference, Guts would have died, but this was pre-eclipse, and he was about even.
Serpico: Completely untouched by Guts, even though he's fought him twice. If we go by points, it's Serpico - 1, Guts - 0, and 1 tie. He was able to dodge all of Guts' weapons at close range. I don't even know if Guts can kill him in an even battle with his wind sword thing.
Griffith: He's pretty good, but his style does not really suit his talents, as his sword cannot take enough abuse to make use of his strength. If he had some kind of magical invincible sword he would have gone even with Guts. His main problem was that his sword shattered instantly.
Silatt fought Guts twice. He is extremely deadly. Brute force isn't everything.
Caska is a joke compared to these people. Just a target for rape.
I say (Going by their current weapons.):
Guts > Serpico > Boscogne > Griffith (Human of course) > Silatt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caska
I don't get why you're completely relating strength with fighting ability. Pippin is physically stronger than Gut's, but he would get annihilated in a fight.
The usefulness of speed is also greatly exaggerated in comics and cartoons, so you shouldn't underestimate people like Serpico.
Look at the fights:
Boscogne: Screwed over by Zodd's interference, Guts would have died, but this was pre-eclipse, and he was about even.
Serpico: Completely untouched by Guts, even though he's fought him twice. If we go by points, it's Serpico - 1, Guts - 0, and 1 tie. He was able to dodge all of Guts' weapons at close range. I don't even know if Guts can kill him in an even battle with his wind sword thing.
Griffith: He's pretty good, but his style does not really suit his talents, as his sword cannot take enough abuse to make use of his strength. If he had some kind of magical invincible sword he would have gone even with Guts. His main problem was that his sword shattered instantly.
Silatt fought Guts twice. He is extremely deadly. Brute force isn't everything.
Caska is a joke compared to these people. Just a target for rape.
I say (Going by their current weapons.):
Guts > Serpico > Boscogne > Griffith (Human of course) > Silatt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caska
M
medievald00d
Guest
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=1605
remember that abomination? Stop in now admins, lock this thread.
remember that abomination? Stop in now admins, lock this thread.
Hello again. I've had some thoughts on manga/comics swordsmanship, that I'll expand on. I would also like to reply to the posts since my last.
Phoenixfenix:
--------------------
I'm sure you're not being sarcastic here. Because where's the sense in being sarcastic in your first reply to a guys first post? I'll simply assume you rejoice at the opportunity to revisit Gatts/Serpico again. You're welcome.
Smith
---------
I'm asking for it? I suppose you mean I'm asking to be bumrushed by the no doubt huge hordes of Serpico fanboys out there, or possibly the infamous Casca-belittlers. Don't worry, I come prepared.
Scarred:
------------
I think you came up with a great sub-topic here:
"The usefulness of speed is also greatly exaggerated in comics and cartoons, so you shouldn't underestimate people like Serpico."
We ARE comparing comics/manga combatants, so it's only fair that we judge them based on the context they're in. In fact, this is what I'll expand on, soon enough. First, however, I will give you a nice anti-serpico argument to chew on.
Many of the people who defend Serpico's virtues as a fighter mention what a master tactician he is. They also celebrate his speed and versatility. Consider the following:
Tactical scenario
-------------------
Place: narrow ledge, face to face with opponent
Situation: you dictate terms of engagement, you are the aggressor, and all the conditions are, through your machinations, HEAVILY in your favor.
Objective: defeat opponent, either by capturing or killing him
Result:
-------
You are forced, against your original intentions, to flee. You are now weaponless. Your opponent wasted but little time brushing you out of the way. Your opponent is still armed and at full combat ability, having received only superficial damage. He now controls the narrow ledge, and is free to continue his advance.
From a tactical standpoint, this is not a win. It is a *failiure to achieve your objectives*, and it leaves you with virtually no combat ability for the time being (seeing how Serpico hasn't proved his worth in hand-to-hand yet). Thanks to the fact that you are still alive, and unhurt, it is not a disaster, *it is a sound defeat*. A thrashing.
Now, if one cannot defeat ones opponent when ones advantages of speed and versatility are optimised, how do you expect to stand a chance in a fight where the odds aren't stacked in your favor?
Gatts is tough. A scratch on the cheek/neck or two doesn't hamper him in the least. Claiming victory here is like claiming you knocked out a tank because you hit it with your 9mm (when your objective was to stop the tank). And then the tank continued its advance.
In my following post, I will try and improve my case in Casca's favor, as well as defend my idea that Boscogne is still overall #2.
Phoenixfenix:
--------------------
I'm sure you're not being sarcastic here. Because where's the sense in being sarcastic in your first reply to a guys first post? I'll simply assume you rejoice at the opportunity to revisit Gatts/Serpico again. You're welcome.
Smith
---------
I'm asking for it? I suppose you mean I'm asking to be bumrushed by the no doubt huge hordes of Serpico fanboys out there, or possibly the infamous Casca-belittlers. Don't worry, I come prepared.
Scarred:
------------
I think you came up with a great sub-topic here:
"The usefulness of speed is also greatly exaggerated in comics and cartoons, so you shouldn't underestimate people like Serpico."
We ARE comparing comics/manga combatants, so it's only fair that we judge them based on the context they're in. In fact, this is what I'll expand on, soon enough. First, however, I will give you a nice anti-serpico argument to chew on.
Many of the people who defend Serpico's virtues as a fighter mention what a master tactician he is. They also celebrate his speed and versatility. Consider the following:
Tactical scenario
-------------------
Place: narrow ledge, face to face with opponent
Situation: you dictate terms of engagement, you are the aggressor, and all the conditions are, through your machinations, HEAVILY in your favor.
Objective: defeat opponent, either by capturing or killing him
Result:
-------
You are forced, against your original intentions, to flee. You are now weaponless. Your opponent wasted but little time brushing you out of the way. Your opponent is still armed and at full combat ability, having received only superficial damage. He now controls the narrow ledge, and is free to continue his advance.
From a tactical standpoint, this is not a win. It is a *failiure to achieve your objectives*, and it leaves you with virtually no combat ability for the time being (seeing how Serpico hasn't proved his worth in hand-to-hand yet). Thanks to the fact that you are still alive, and unhurt, it is not a disaster, *it is a sound defeat*. A thrashing.
Now, if one cannot defeat ones opponent when ones advantages of speed and versatility are optimised, how do you expect to stand a chance in a fight where the odds aren't stacked in your favor?
Gatts is tough. A scratch on the cheek/neck or two doesn't hamper him in the least. Claiming victory here is like claiming you knocked out a tank because you hit it with your 9mm (when your objective was to stop the tank). And then the tank continued its advance.
In my following post, I will try and improve my case in Casca's favor, as well as defend my idea that Boscogne is still overall #2.
Okay, here goes. I think Walter touched on this subject very early on in this thread: it's hard to compare fighters who haven't actually gone up against one another in the manga. I'd like to add, that it's hard to compare even fighters who have.
Comics are about storytelling. To tell a story, you usually resort to devices like archetypes, build-ups, suspense, etc. Naturally, some characters will suffer horribly, from an objective standpoint, under these dramatical rues.
My point? Casca probably got hit the hardest, here. From a pure 'apparent fighting power' perspective.
Since she used to be stuck in the rather uncomfortable position of being both 'damsel in distress', 'runner-up used to highlight fighting superiority of main characters (Griff/Gatts) ' and 'emotional reserve of the Hawks it's not surprising that her combat record, as shown, has been erratic.
Casca the fighter:
----------------------
So. What do we know about Casca as a fighter? And how much of it is heavily colored by Miura's need to tell the story, rather than display fighter-casca objectively?
We know, for a fact, that she was held to be the third 'strongest' fighter in the Hawks, right up until the very end. This means second only to Griffith and Gatts, and better than Judeau and Pippin. Not bad, though for obvious reasons, it's hard to claim she'd be this threads 'second best swords(wo)man after Gatts'.
What do we know of her style? From her performance in the early stages of Gatts century killings, we know she's very fast, even when weakened. We also know she plays her strengths, she doesn't block, she parries or diverts, and then strikes at the soft spots of her enemy, where her limited power is put to its best use - wrists, necks and armpits where there's no armor and plenty of vital blood vessels. I personally love the sequence in this fight where she does her 'stop punch' move on the guy who does an overhand swing.
We know from her second fight with Adon that she's very fast and agile - even with a crossbow bolt in her shoulder and poison in her blood. Being able to keep moving and fighting in spite of severe injury is a great trait in a fighter. She also soldiered on after the Midland ambush on the Hawks, with no less than five arrows stuck in her.
This girl has fighting spirit, speed, skill and durability. Her most obvious problem is power. All this, of course, on a good day. Which is saying a lot when talking about Casca.
This brings me to the second part of this post: how to compare the worth of different fighters in a comics/manga setting. Bear in mind that in spite of the following analysis, the need to tell a story will always mess with the relative strength of our respective champions.
How to compare fighters:
--------------------------------
It seems to me there are a number of traits, that all fighters in Berserk, and indeed most comics/mange, share. Some have more of one or more than others. Certain characters like Gatts have it all. Here is my suggested set of traits:
Strength - this means the ability to deal damage, or rather, produce destructive force in any form, be it concussive, surgical precision techniques, blunt, edged, firey breath, it doesn't matter. Includes, to an extent, the ability to interact with surroundings by lifting, tossing, toppling stuff.
Speed - would include reaction time, reflexes, speed of movement, and ground speed.
Skill - ability to read/predict opponent, ability to make the most of what you have, knowledge of your weapons reach, durability and relative strengths.
Durability - ability to 'take a licking and keep on ticking'. Allows a fighter to maintain a high level of performance in spite of injury. Also affects recuperation time, and 'comeback potential' as measured in time required to get back into the action once knocked out.
Cunning - also known as 'dirty tricks'. This is kind of a catch-all, and includes weapons and fighting skills in excess of the fighters primary. It also includes the use of poison, booby traps, unique abilities like regeneration, shape change, etc.
Manga:
---------
I would say that in manga, there is generally a hierarchy of these abilities. I will argue that it looks like this, in most cases:
1.   Skill
2.   Speed
3.   Durability
4.   Strength
5.   Cunning
American comics:
-----------------------
In American comics, the hierarchy generally looks a bit different. In fact, I would say it looks like this:
1.   Durability
2.   Strength
3.   Cunning
4.   Skill
5.   Speed
Feel free to argue against my hierarchies, but please provide arguments if you think they are inappropriate.
Our contestants reviewed:
---------------------------------
Now let's return to our Berserk contestants. I will use the categories above to try and analyse our different fighters, which will also mean comparing them.
Gatts: Not really part of the competition, I include him as a comparison. Gatts kind of sets the standards; skill, speed, strength, durability- he has them ALL, and lots and lots of it. Since this is a humans-only competition, it's hard to say he's truly surpassed in ANY of these fields, nor in cunning. Cunning here would include canon arm, throwing knives, grenades, AND the unique ability to own and wield the DS. Our natural #1.
Gascogne: this guy has skill, strength, speed AND durability. Massive destructive potential, ability to absorb several hits; his one big weakness would be his lack of 'cunning'. In fact, the poor guy dies when Gatts and Zodd pulls a dirty trick on him. A worthy candidate for spot #2.
Azan: in spite of not having had a lot of combat time 'on screen' in the manga, it seems he has plenty of skill and strength (what with his choice of weapon, and all). He LOOKS durable, and since he's a veteran fighter and not a young prodigy, I'll assume he is. Speed? He has speed. In the valley of lost children, he kept pouring attacks over Gatts. But his speed is definitely not top notch. Good, but not excellent. Also, his knightly virtue thing prevents him from using much cunning. So, all in all a buff fighter, but not up to Gascogne standards.
Serpico: Has lots speed and skill. His speed, however, doesn't seem to surpass Gatts, and neither does his skill. This guy seems to be lacking in the strength and durability departments. I have yet to see him prove he has much of either. Cunning, however, seems high. He has many skills, and is a quick thinker. However, lacking several of the defined fighter traits, he's not going to make the top.
Silatt: Another fighter that has skill and speed. He also has a truckload of cunning, including boot daggers, exotic weapons and thrown weapons, all carried concealed, on his person. Durability seems average at best, however. He did get knocked out by a single swipe with the flat of young Gatts sword - something that wouldn't have happened to Gatts himself, of Gascogne or even Azan. Possibly not to Casca, either. Strength, too, seems to be missing. His frame is petite, and he has shown no particular feats of strength. Like Serpico, this guy has great pros, but isn't all round enough. A specialist fighter.
Griffith: Human Griffith, that is. He has great speed and skill, likely Gatts-level or beyond. He has proved to possess good durability (took several punches/kicks from Gatts in their first fight), but not excellent (got knocked out cold by Zodd, which didn't happen to Gatts. Also took longer to recuperate). His strength, too, is good to excellent. Chopping off Zodd's arm with a single stoke is proof enough. This guy can produce a lot of violence and damage with one attack, should the need arise. His strength, however, is not up to Gatts standard, not by a long shot. Cunning? Like Serpico, he has killer situational awareness. His charisma/intimidation skills are powerful, even in combat. He has also proved himself to be a very capable hand-to-hand fighter, as well as being a prodigal commander. He has cunning. Lots of it. Another worthy candidate for the #2 spot.
Casca: bar the fact that the story dictates she has to get in trouble often, this fighter has speed (though not Gatts level) and skill (same here, not Gatts level). She has good to excellent durability: she can fight on with five bolts in her, she can get up and kill weak from menstruation and that tumble off the cliff, or even when poisoned. Few characters except Gatts have shown similar feats of fortitude. Her strength seems good, but not excellent. Cunning? I'd say good to Very good but far from excellent. She used a crossbow on Gatts that first time, and she put that nasty twig in the guys eye during her flight from the century killing. She'll do anything to win, as long as she doesn't zone out and loose all motivation. Also has real tactical leadership skills. So, though she's not likely to compete with our top candidates, she compares favourably to the likes of Serpico and Silatt. Casca is simply well rounded - the problem is that her TOP skills aren't top notch. A dependable all rounder, bar the necessities of story telling.
Judeau: Good skill, Good speed, Very good to Excellent cunning. Average to Good durability (as seen in the battle that lead up to his demise) and Average to Good strength. Another Casca-esque fighter, though considered inferior to her. A Casca runner-up?
Pippin: Very good to Excellent strength - it's kind of hard to tell. I'll go with excellent, in all fairness. Good to Very good skill. Poor to average speed. Very good durability (high pain threshold, lots of bulk to soak damage). Cunning is Average - he is perceptive and knowledgable, but not a particularily varied fighter per se. A bit like a mini-Azan. Some real strengths, some real dips. Poor speed seems to be his real problem, at least when using this method of analysis. Again, not quite up to Casca's general standard.
Bottom line:
---------------
* Serpico, Silatt have some critical weaknesses in durability, which is ranked pretty high in the manga hierarchy.
* Azan doesn't go the distance, since his 'cunning' slot is pretty much empty.
* Casca is better than most people seem to think, and compare to Serpico, Silatt and possibly Azan by virtue of having ALL of the required abilites, at least to a fair extent.
Ah, the joys of controversy, the joy of discussion. Go Casca!
Comics are about storytelling. To tell a story, you usually resort to devices like archetypes, build-ups, suspense, etc. Naturally, some characters will suffer horribly, from an objective standpoint, under these dramatical rues.
My point? Casca probably got hit the hardest, here. From a pure 'apparent fighting power' perspective.
Since she used to be stuck in the rather uncomfortable position of being both 'damsel in distress', 'runner-up used to highlight fighting superiority of main characters (Griff/Gatts) ' and 'emotional reserve of the Hawks it's not surprising that her combat record, as shown, has been erratic.
Casca the fighter:
----------------------
So. What do we know about Casca as a fighter? And how much of it is heavily colored by Miura's need to tell the story, rather than display fighter-casca objectively?
We know, for a fact, that she was held to be the third 'strongest' fighter in the Hawks, right up until the very end. This means second only to Griffith and Gatts, and better than Judeau and Pippin. Not bad, though for obvious reasons, it's hard to claim she'd be this threads 'second best swords(wo)man after Gatts'.
What do we know of her style? From her performance in the early stages of Gatts century killings, we know she's very fast, even when weakened. We also know she plays her strengths, she doesn't block, she parries or diverts, and then strikes at the soft spots of her enemy, where her limited power is put to its best use - wrists, necks and armpits where there's no armor and plenty of vital blood vessels. I personally love the sequence in this fight where she does her 'stop punch' move on the guy who does an overhand swing.
We know from her second fight with Adon that she's very fast and agile - even with a crossbow bolt in her shoulder and poison in her blood. Being able to keep moving and fighting in spite of severe injury is a great trait in a fighter. She also soldiered on after the Midland ambush on the Hawks, with no less than five arrows stuck in her.
This girl has fighting spirit, speed, skill and durability. Her most obvious problem is power. All this, of course, on a good day. Which is saying a lot when talking about Casca.
This brings me to the second part of this post: how to compare the worth of different fighters in a comics/manga setting. Bear in mind that in spite of the following analysis, the need to tell a story will always mess with the relative strength of our respective champions.
How to compare fighters:
--------------------------------
It seems to me there are a number of traits, that all fighters in Berserk, and indeed most comics/mange, share. Some have more of one or more than others. Certain characters like Gatts have it all. Here is my suggested set of traits:
Strength - this means the ability to deal damage, or rather, produce destructive force in any form, be it concussive, surgical precision techniques, blunt, edged, firey breath, it doesn't matter. Includes, to an extent, the ability to interact with surroundings by lifting, tossing, toppling stuff.
Speed - would include reaction time, reflexes, speed of movement, and ground speed.
Skill - ability to read/predict opponent, ability to make the most of what you have, knowledge of your weapons reach, durability and relative strengths.
Durability - ability to 'take a licking and keep on ticking'. Allows a fighter to maintain a high level of performance in spite of injury. Also affects recuperation time, and 'comeback potential' as measured in time required to get back into the action once knocked out.
Cunning - also known as 'dirty tricks'. This is kind of a catch-all, and includes weapons and fighting skills in excess of the fighters primary. It also includes the use of poison, booby traps, unique abilities like regeneration, shape change, etc.
Manga:
---------
I would say that in manga, there is generally a hierarchy of these abilities. I will argue that it looks like this, in most cases:
1.   Skill
2.   Speed
3.   Durability
4.   Strength
5.   Cunning
American comics:
-----------------------
In American comics, the hierarchy generally looks a bit different. In fact, I would say it looks like this:
1.   Durability
2.   Strength
3.   Cunning
4.   Skill
5.   Speed
Feel free to argue against my hierarchies, but please provide arguments if you think they are inappropriate.
Our contestants reviewed:
---------------------------------
Now let's return to our Berserk contestants. I will use the categories above to try and analyse our different fighters, which will also mean comparing them.
Gatts: Not really part of the competition, I include him as a comparison. Gatts kind of sets the standards; skill, speed, strength, durability- he has them ALL, and lots and lots of it. Since this is a humans-only competition, it's hard to say he's truly surpassed in ANY of these fields, nor in cunning. Cunning here would include canon arm, throwing knives, grenades, AND the unique ability to own and wield the DS. Our natural #1.
Gascogne: this guy has skill, strength, speed AND durability. Massive destructive potential, ability to absorb several hits; his one big weakness would be his lack of 'cunning'. In fact, the poor guy dies when Gatts and Zodd pulls a dirty trick on him. A worthy candidate for spot #2.
Azan: in spite of not having had a lot of combat time 'on screen' in the manga, it seems he has plenty of skill and strength (what with his choice of weapon, and all). He LOOKS durable, and since he's a veteran fighter and not a young prodigy, I'll assume he is. Speed? He has speed. In the valley of lost children, he kept pouring attacks over Gatts. But his speed is definitely not top notch. Good, but not excellent. Also, his knightly virtue thing prevents him from using much cunning. So, all in all a buff fighter, but not up to Gascogne standards.
Serpico: Has lots speed and skill. His speed, however, doesn't seem to surpass Gatts, and neither does his skill. This guy seems to be lacking in the strength and durability departments. I have yet to see him prove he has much of either. Cunning, however, seems high. He has many skills, and is a quick thinker. However, lacking several of the defined fighter traits, he's not going to make the top.
Silatt: Another fighter that has skill and speed. He also has a truckload of cunning, including boot daggers, exotic weapons and thrown weapons, all carried concealed, on his person. Durability seems average at best, however. He did get knocked out by a single swipe with the flat of young Gatts sword - something that wouldn't have happened to Gatts himself, of Gascogne or even Azan. Possibly not to Casca, either. Strength, too, seems to be missing. His frame is petite, and he has shown no particular feats of strength. Like Serpico, this guy has great pros, but isn't all round enough. A specialist fighter.
Griffith: Human Griffith, that is. He has great speed and skill, likely Gatts-level or beyond. He has proved to possess good durability (took several punches/kicks from Gatts in their first fight), but not excellent (got knocked out cold by Zodd, which didn't happen to Gatts. Also took longer to recuperate). His strength, too, is good to excellent. Chopping off Zodd's arm with a single stoke is proof enough. This guy can produce a lot of violence and damage with one attack, should the need arise. His strength, however, is not up to Gatts standard, not by a long shot. Cunning? Like Serpico, he has killer situational awareness. His charisma/intimidation skills are powerful, even in combat. He has also proved himself to be a very capable hand-to-hand fighter, as well as being a prodigal commander. He has cunning. Lots of it. Another worthy candidate for the #2 spot.
Casca: bar the fact that the story dictates she has to get in trouble often, this fighter has speed (though not Gatts level) and skill (same here, not Gatts level). She has good to excellent durability: she can fight on with five bolts in her, she can get up and kill weak from menstruation and that tumble off the cliff, or even when poisoned. Few characters except Gatts have shown similar feats of fortitude. Her strength seems good, but not excellent. Cunning? I'd say good to Very good but far from excellent. She used a crossbow on Gatts that first time, and she put that nasty twig in the guys eye during her flight from the century killing. She'll do anything to win, as long as she doesn't zone out and loose all motivation. Also has real tactical leadership skills. So, though she's not likely to compete with our top candidates, she compares favourably to the likes of Serpico and Silatt. Casca is simply well rounded - the problem is that her TOP skills aren't top notch. A dependable all rounder, bar the necessities of story telling.
Judeau: Good skill, Good speed, Very good to Excellent cunning. Average to Good durability (as seen in the battle that lead up to his demise) and Average to Good strength. Another Casca-esque fighter, though considered inferior to her. A Casca runner-up?
Pippin: Very good to Excellent strength - it's kind of hard to tell. I'll go with excellent, in all fairness. Good to Very good skill. Poor to average speed. Very good durability (high pain threshold, lots of bulk to soak damage). Cunning is Average - he is perceptive and knowledgable, but not a particularily varied fighter per se. A bit like a mini-Azan. Some real strengths, some real dips. Poor speed seems to be his real problem, at least when using this method of analysis. Again, not quite up to Casca's general standard.
Bottom line:
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* Serpico, Silatt have some critical weaknesses in durability, which is ranked pretty high in the manga hierarchy.
* Azan doesn't go the distance, since his 'cunning' slot is pretty much empty.
* Casca is better than most people seem to think, and compare to Serpico, Silatt and possibly Azan by virtue of having ALL of the required abilites, at least to a fair extent.
Ah, the joys of controversy, the joy of discussion. Go Casca!
Tymos said:
Interesting points really. Skill seems to be much more important to the everyday hero in manga compared to american comics.
Not too much of a comment there, except that age seems to be more heavily accented in the manga. It is good to be old, if you have learnt from your experience. I mean, how many dangerous old men have you seen in american comics compared to the japenese/chinese? The other alternatives than good to be old is to either read some interesting scrolls (inherited knowledge), or to have started training when you were a kid... Or perhaps blood. Kinship to dangerous guys seems to be a rather handy thing to have too.
Experience is very important.
But I have one thing to say about this whole argument. Which G.a.t.t.s are we talking about? Pre and post eclipse are rather different persons. I for one thinks it is a rather moot point to try to make, because how would we compare Gascoigne which fought pre-eclipse Gatts to for example Serpico who fought the post-eclipse Gatts?
One thing I can say though is that:
Casca is better than most people give her credit for. Like Tymos say she is a heroine, which makes her suspectible to several 'laws' that do not really govern the males. She is the heroine, which means that she has to be saved now and again. Could anyone imagine for example Serpico put in her position later in the series? That ain't happening expcept perhaps in some people's yaoi dreams.
Casca's problem has always been the mental side, she is weak there. She has problems dealing with her female side, and her sense of inferiority and the need to prove herself.
Besides, if anyone thinks that a period can not be a totally traumatic experience... hell, I dare you to try it.
*grins*
Tymos, the best human hand-to-hander in BERSERK is any one of the Tarpassa. He will beat and most propably kill Guts anytime in a hand-to-hand conflict. But Guts with his sword could win however the Tarpasa choose to arm. So armed skill is one thing and hand-to-hander totally another for the judging of a fighter. Equipment or kit is definatelly a factor to have distinct. You can not compare both to judge a fighter overall. Each one has its speciality.
Fishbomb:
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I agree with most everything you say.
Xechnao:
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I've chosen not to treat hand-to-hand ability separate from any other weapon.
A fighter's skill, speed and strength are based on his primary weapon (wepaon of choice), be this saber, fist or dragon slayer.
Secondary fighting skills, that help a fighter become more versatile, are included under the 'cunning' entry.
The point to try and find which fighter has the most powerful and successful combination of these different attributes, not which individual weapon is the best.
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I agree with most everything you say.
Xechnao:
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I've chosen not to treat hand-to-hand ability separate from any other weapon.
A fighter's skill, speed and strength are based on his primary weapon (wepaon of choice), be this saber, fist or dragon slayer.
Secondary fighting skills, that help a fighter become more versatile, are included under the 'cunning' entry.
The point to try and find which fighter has the most powerful and successful combination of these different attributes, not which individual weapon is the best.
Tymos said:
I am still not convinced. I prefer to see a classification as specilized and not individual best fighter.
For example, there are different body constructions. A fighter will always be better than another in close spaces but the other will always be advantaged in open spaces.
Same goes with kits and equipment.
Xechnao:
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There's a problem with being too specific and too context-bound. For instance, you will never be able to come up with an answer for a general type of question like 'who is the best (allround) fighter in berserk'.
To answer a general question like this, we need to come up with a way of comparing vastly different fighters in a way that seems at least remotely fair and reasonable.
We also need to ignore detailed context stuff like specific combat conditions, or the necessities of story telling.
This is what I've been trying to do.
For any given fighter of decent prowess, it'll be easy to think up a scenario where his/her style and dispositon will be at an advantage over certain others.
My conditions for determining who's a 'powerful fighter' aims at describing a well rounded, adaptable and capable fighter who'd be able to handle him/herself in most situations, not just where they're at their advantage.
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There's a problem with being too specific and too context-bound. For instance, you will never be able to come up with an answer for a general type of question like 'who is the best (allround) fighter in berserk'.
To answer a general question like this, we need to come up with a way of comparing vastly different fighters in a way that seems at least remotely fair and reasonable.
We also need to ignore detailed context stuff like specific combat conditions, or the necessities of story telling.
This is what I've been trying to do.
For any given fighter of decent prowess, it'll be easy to think up a scenario where his/her style and dispositon will be at an advantage over certain others.
My conditions for determining who's a 'powerful fighter' aims at describing a well rounded, adaptable and capable fighter who'd be able to handle him/herself in most situations, not just where they're at their advantage.
SexyCharlotte
All those who wander are not always lost
I think this thread, like all threads which begin with a question such as who is the best, what is the best, etc...it's all just a matter of opinion.
My 'opinion' for this thread...the best swordsman after Guts? Well, I can't say Griffith because he was easily defeated early on by Guts which led to his seduction of Charlotte, etc etc etc...so I'm going to say Zodd.
LG
My 'opinion' for this thread...the best swordsman after Guts? Well, I can't say Griffith because he was easily defeated early on by Guts which led to his seduction of Charlotte, etc etc etc...so I'm going to say Zodd.
LG
After rewatching the series, I've had serious changes in my list of fighting ability.
1. Boscogne is far weaker than we made him out to be. Guts sword was stronger than or equal to Zodd's (considering that Zodd had fought 50 people before Guts confronted him), and Zodd's sword was strong enough to cut through Boscogne's axe. In an even duel he would have died in the first swing.
2. Griffith knew that his sword couldn't handle Gut's sword. This isn't about strength, speed, or skill. This is about Griffith's sword being too weak. His strategy was to go all out in the first strike. He would either win right away, or lose right away. That is why it ended in the first swing. He was easily even with Guts, and don't forget that he cut Zodd's apostle arm off in his first appearance. Since Guts beat Zodd in human form, and Griffith is even with Guts, Griffith would be a better swordsman than Zodd, before the eclipse (Zodd doesn't use a sword as an apostle).
3. Serpico was going about even with Guts, and would be able to beat Zodd's human form and probably escape.
4. Guts is not nearly as skilled as people make him out to be. If his sword wasn't just plane tougher than everyone else's he wouldn't have survived very long. If he and Zodd battled with the same weapon he would lose hands down.
5. Caska still sucks.
Guts' increase in power after the eclipse isn't nearly as powerful as people say. He faired about the same against Zodd as he did the first time. He already showed that he was capable of beating one or two bottom of the barrel apostles. It isn't until he gets the berserk armor that he gets a major power boost, and that has absolutely nothing to do with his ability.
1. Boscogne is far weaker than we made him out to be. Guts sword was stronger than or equal to Zodd's (considering that Zodd had fought 50 people before Guts confronted him), and Zodd's sword was strong enough to cut through Boscogne's axe. In an even duel he would have died in the first swing.
2. Griffith knew that his sword couldn't handle Gut's sword. This isn't about strength, speed, or skill. This is about Griffith's sword being too weak. His strategy was to go all out in the first strike. He would either win right away, or lose right away. That is why it ended in the first swing. He was easily even with Guts, and don't forget that he cut Zodd's apostle arm off in his first appearance. Since Guts beat Zodd in human form, and Griffith is even with Guts, Griffith would be a better swordsman than Zodd, before the eclipse (Zodd doesn't use a sword as an apostle).
3. Serpico was going about even with Guts, and would be able to beat Zodd's human form and probably escape.
4. Guts is not nearly as skilled as people make him out to be. If his sword wasn't just plane tougher than everyone else's he wouldn't have survived very long. If he and Zodd battled with the same weapon he would lose hands down.
5. Caska still sucks.
Guts' increase in power after the eclipse isn't nearly as powerful as people say. He faired about the same against Zodd as he did the first time. He already showed that he was capable of beating one or two bottom of the barrel apostles. It isn't until he gets the berserk armor that he gets a major power boost, and that has absolutely nothing to do with his ability.
Scarred said:
In their first match, Guts was going flying with every exchange, and was utterly helpless against Zodd when Zodd went all apostle on his ass. He only won because his sword was better.
In their second match, Guts had a slight edge against Zodd's human form, and was holding his own against Zodd's apostle form until Caska was endangered.
As for Guts's skill, it just looks like random hacking because he makes it look so easy. But notice that his defense is so good the best any human has been able to do to him since Griffith is give him a cut on the cheek (except for the first H.I.C.K. encounter, but give him a break, he was in horrible shape). Plus, Guts is good at breaking weapons, and measuring his opponents up.
Funny, having a weaker blade didn't hinder Griffith at all the first time, even helped him with a speed advantage. Guts became faster and stronger than Griffith, he cleaved through Griffith's blade with ease, and even managed to pull back a full swing.
The only reason Guts beat Zodd the first time was because his weapon was better. Griffith's blade would have snapped in the first exchange. Especially since one can reasonably argue that Guts was stronger than Griffith at this point.
Serpico matches up horrible with Zodd, the only way he'd have a prayer is with the feather sword. Otherwise Zodd just crushes him.
Scarred said:
My god...
you are talking about someone (a human especially) holding a 200kg sword and still have the fighting speed that no one else matches except Zodd, the strongest of the apostle, and you say he isnt really powerful...?Scarred said:
If you are talking about ability, then dun forget his "Steel" mouth that is capable of bitting the tools of the Mozgues disciples in that split second before he dig his eyes off (vol 20)
