Author Topic: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?  (Read 8065 times)

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Offline spineylamb

So this has been confusing me.

We see a demon fetus in the first couple of volumes chasing Guts around right? And you can definitely tell it's an early work, and maybe not everything has been thought of just yet.

For awhile, I thought Miura had forgotten all about the little freak (I did anyway). But he comes back when the story has caught up back to the present. What slightly bugged me is the amount of time for a "gestation" period. It sort of feels like (to me) that he just threw it in at the beginning to be weird and obscure, but then decided to give it an explanation later for continuity's sake.

When Guts returns to the Hawks and does his thing ('twas romantic by the way <3) with Casca, that is when we shall start the stopwatch. I'm not at home so I can't go look it up, but didn't they go to the tower to rescue Griffith like, within the next 1-3 days? It even showed Casca being "sore" as she mounted her horse, which is a sign (to me) that the event was still fresh.

After they rescue Griffith, they are chased by Wyald. That whole thing felt like it happened in about two days. The next part I'm not too sure how much time has passed, but it's where Casca wants to address the Hawks that are with her, but isn't sure what to say. That's the whole part with the wagons and just before Griffith loses it... uh, could that be a few days later? Or would it be considered immediately?

Another thing I want to bring up, is if anyone thinks this scene http://four.fsphost.com/toyhyena/berserkv12ch71038.jpg was supposed to be insinuating something. 'cause when I originally saw it,  I just thought maybe her chest hurt (since that's where her heart is)

And then the Eclipse happens. How many days have passed when Guts and Casca recover in the cave? Guts immediately runs outside, I don't imagine too much time has passed when he turns back around in time to see Casca abort the demon embryo. Like maybe 3-7 days' worth of development tops? Should I chalk up its size to just outright demonization?

Basically I just am curious as to what anyone else thinks about the whole baby thing. I personally think Guts is very quiet and underwhelmed about it and I can't wait to see Casca's opinion once she's not a vegetable.  :???:

Offline Walter

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2007, 11:38:32 PM »
You're a little wrong on the days, I think. Pretty sure several more days passed after the eclipse and until Guts wakes up. But, I understand your point, and it's been mentioned before a while back, probably in passing.

However, I believe the events in the eclipse, specifically Casca's rape by a demon king, alter any preconceived physical notions of a "normal" gestation period.

Since it occured in another dimension, it has that X factor the variable that could have a hundred explanations.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 07:55:52 AM »
We see a demon fetus in the first couple of volumes chasing Guts around right? And you can definitely tell it's an early work, and maybe not everything has been thought of just yet.

Why do you say we can tell it's an early work? I mean what does that mean? The Demon Child's representation has been consistent from his first appearance to his last. There's no incongruity anywhere and in fact I think the way it was all constructed is pretty smart. I'm curious about what makes you say so.

It sort of feels like (to me) that he just threw it in at the beginning to be weird and obscure, but then decided to give it an explanation later for continuity's sake.

Well that sure doesn't show a lot of consideration for the author. While he specifically made that "monster" appear at the very beginning of the story and made it clear it was recurrently haunting Guts, and while it was very distinct from the regular spectres, incubi and other enemies Guts was shown facing, you think he included him only to be "weird and obscure"? And what about the fact a good amount of really important events rely primarily on him? Are they also last minute additions for continuity's sake? I don't think that makes much sense, in particular if you think about the time that elapsed between the child's conception and its birth (in the real world I mean), with the little hints in between. It seems pretty unlikely that Miura created a perfect context for the child's birth over years of work, making sense of all that happened before and would happen after, and just happened to remember by chance that he had an unused character and crammed it in at the last minute.

If he had wanted to, Miura could have just said Guts had been sleeping for 2 months and not 4 days after the Eclipse. Or even 9 months if he wanted to. Or Casca could have given birth later, Guts staying around with her longer. Without going back on all the things pointing toward that birth, and on how everything comes together perfectly (Guts & Casca's love, the rape by Femto, etc), it's clear this birth is the result of a long-time planned series of events, despite the fact it itself happened and was over with rather quickly. Simply said when you look at it in detail it's just impossible that it was a last minute idea. It was carefully planned, and it happened the way it did because Miura wanted it to. Now you're free to think he didn't do it well or that he should have done things another way, but in any case it wasn't random.

Another thing I want to bring up, is if anyone thinks this scene http://four.fsphost.com/toyhyena/berserkv12ch71038.jpg was supposed to be insinuating something. 'cause when I originally saw it,  I just thought maybe her chest hurt (since that's where her heart is)

Yeah, it's supposed to be insinuating something about her being pregnant.

Should I chalk up its size to just outright demonization?

Yes, that is your answer. Did you notice that the embryo grew from what I estimate as the size one has at 6 to 7 weeks of pregnancy to a "regular" size in mere seconds? When you consider this along with the supernatural nature of this child, it is only logical to assume it evolved way faster than it normally should have even in Casca's womb. You don't need to go farther for an explanation, it's all there in plain sight. This was definitely not a normal pregnancy (thanks to Femto) and like Walter said it shouldn't be seen like one.

Offline Okin

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2007, 07:32:53 PM »
Fetus-boy fits really well in my opinion. In fact, I think Miura and Femto planned for the child to become Griffith's reborn body, and for that to work he would need to be rejected by Guts, so Femto decided, "Hey Casca's hot and pregnant. If I bang her, Guts will hate the kid, and I can use him as a new body. Plus it'll piss Guts off, and I can treat Casca like crap! Can't be a king of Midland without a corporeal body either!" :troll:

There's also that mystery child that seems attracted to Guts and Casca. Didn't SK say something about children naturally being attracted to their parents? Well whoever that kid is, the fetus definitely has a huge significance to the plot, and for his role not to have been thought out before hand, than neither was almost the entire main plot.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2007, 07:59:45 PM »
Femto planned for the child to become Griffith's reborn body

You mean the Ideal of Evil. Not only did Femto literally have no time to plan anything, but there are also a lot of determining events in his eventual incarnation he had no way to know. For example, he didn't know SK would save Guts and Casca from certain death, and actually tried to stop him from doing so.

Offline Okin

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 01:26:23 PM »
I'm sorry. I jumped the gun a bit here. From what I can tell with the latest episode, Griffith has far beyond human foresight. All the pieces fell into place for him to be crowned as king of Midland with no objections from the Holy See Alliance or the Midland nobles. It may be that only the Idea of Evil foresaw these events, however, due to his role in these events I feel that Griffith at least had an understanding of what his actions would accomplish. Of course he may have just raped Casca on a whim though. :troll:

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Offline CnC

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2007, 01:56:06 PM »
I'm sorry. I jumped the gun a bit here. From what I can tell with the latest episode, Griffith has far beyond human foresight. All the pieces fell into place for him to be crowned as king of Midland with no objections from the Holy See Alliance or the Midland nobles. It may be that only the Idea of Evil foresaw these events, however, due to his role in these events I feel that Griffith at least had an understanding of what his actions would accomplish. Of course he may have just raped Casca on a whim though. :troll:

Griffith has been a brilliant strategist from day 1.  Guts noticed very early on how Griffith was able to account for any and all factors that could happen in a battle.  Griffith being able to coordinate the recent events doesn't speak to any abilities he didn't already have.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2007, 04:07:45 PM »
From what I can tell with the latest episode, Griffith has far beyond human foresight. All the pieces fell into place for him to be crowned as king of Midland with no objections from the Holy See Alliance or the Midland nobles. It may be that only the Idea of Evil foresaw these events, however, due to his role in these events I feel that Griffith at least had an understanding of what his actions would accomplish.

Griffith does seem to have an uncanny foresight, though not enough that he doesn't need to have a true medium in his army (Sonia). However, like CnC pointed out, the examples you're taking here really don't prove your point. Griffith knew Midland's nobles would bow to their queen's will? He knew the Holy See Alliance would bow to their spiritual leader's will? That's not even strategic in the least, it's just common sense. Nothing the average Joe couldn't come up with.

Of course he may have just raped Casca on a whim though.

Well yes, actually.

Offline Okin

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 09:39:14 PM »
Wow! Now I'm wondering what I would do if I just turned into a near-omnipotent being!  :zodd:

More seriously, I get the feeling that you guys believe Griffith acts more on impulse and whim than the average person. I have to agree that its true. His obsession with Guts, his rash meeting with Charlotte, and his sudden desire to drive the wagon he was on even though he could only use his mouth. :griff:

Looking over these events again, I'm begining to think that Griffith only looks at the big picture when it comes to tactical planning, otherwise, he seems to just fling it.  :???: Luckily, the Idea of Evil seems to have made Griffith's hunches pretty reliable, well, at least most of the time.

Sorry, this is pretty off topic.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 09:39:09 AM »
Wow! Now I'm wondering what I would do if I just turned into a near-omnipotent being!

Not sure who or what you're referring to here, but there's no omnipotent being in Berserk. Even the Idea of Evil has to use painfully indirect means to get the results it wants, and over centuries of work.

More seriously, I get the feeling that you guys believe Griffith acts more on impulse and whim than the average person.

Actually, not necessarily more than the average, but he's not a robot either. When still human Griffith tried very hard to be as cold and emotionless as possible, but in spite of his efforts he was only a man with his weaknesses (see how he reacted in the river after his night with Gennon). He didn't really need Guts anymore after the war ended and that's why Guts himself decided to leave at that time. Griffith felt too insecure to let him go, but I think it's the fact he was actually vanquished (while he was willing to kill Guts if he couldn't help it) that totally broke his spirit. Going to Charlotte was irrational but he needed to reassure himself, and he seemed to have regained his usual self the next morning. Unfortunately he had already doomed himself. That small moment was enough to destroy everything he had built. Fleeing with the wagon was different however, at that point he was a broken man and he knew it, not to mention he was half-mad after that year of torture. I can understand why one would want to put an end to it in such a situation.

Looking over these events again, I'm begining to think that Griffith only looks at the big picture when it comes to tactical planning, otherwise, he seems to just fling it.

I think he does look at the big picture all the time, but you can't plan everything. As a man he tried to put every advantage on his side, but while he relied on ingenuity and audacious tactical maneuvers, he did take risks more than once. Not because he didn't prefer to carefully plan things, but because he had no other choice if he wanted to reach his dream. That's where Causality served him well, thanks to the Idea of Evil. He succeeded a hundred times when he could as easily have failed, a hundred times he was lucky (e.g. the beherit stopped the poisoned quarrel), and in the end he lost everything to bad luck as well, a maid passing by that wouldn't keep her mouth shut. That's the work of the Idea of Evil, his life was to be that way for him to become Femto.

Now that he's part of the God Hand and incarnated, things are quite different. He's still audacious and ingenious, but he doesn't really take risks anymore since he has supernatural powers and soldiers, and cannot be beaten or even harmed (which is why when talking about Griffith I think it's important to really differentiate his former, human self from the current character). Knowing that everything in the world is laid out for him to reach his goal must give him confidence as well, but does he even need it?

Luckily, the Idea of Evil seems to have made Griffith's hunches pretty reliable, well, at least most of the time.

Like I said, as a human he was lucky or unlucky depending on whether it was appropriate or not in order for him to become Femto. Currently, he has a higher understanding of the world, and he uses it along with his powers and a global situation that is to his advantage to get what he wants without too much trouble.

Hmm anyway, looking at the title of this thread it appears we're quite off topic, so I'll lock it once we're done with this.

Offline Waychel

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 04:30:37 AM »
If the Demon Fetus was originally created to be nothing more than an obscure monster like the Incubus, why would Miura decide to turn it into such a major plot focal point 10+ volumes later? I think that we would have revisited the events of the first page of the manga (where Guts was screwing some random Apostle chick... LOL) before receiving explanations for random monsters if Miura was truly that concerned with establishing continuity for even the most obscure of Guts' encounters.

The behavior of the Demon Fetus (when/where it chooses to appear to Guts) and Guts' own reaction to it have remained consistent between the early and later episodes too. When the Fetus first appeared to Guts, it was while he was alone after being taken prisoner, and Guts even addresses it as "you" repeatedly. I also feel that the design of the Fetus was intentional. When it first appears to Guts in the cell, it is shown visibly "crawling" towards him... like a baby. I don't think that the Fetus' design, appearances, or Guts' reaction to it in early and later episodes could have all been coincidence.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2007, 06:51:41 AM »
(where Guts was screwing some random Apostle chick... LOL)

Hey it wasn't so random, it's the apostle that killed Carcus. :carcus:

Offline Waychel

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2007, 11:23:06 AM »
Hey it wasn't so random, it's the apostle that killed Carcus. :carcus:

Really? That was what I thought when I went back to read Berserk after the Eclipse, but one of my friends pointed out that the Apostle who killed Corcus used a female decoy rather than transformed into a female (kind of like how those deep sea fishies have a light that dangles in front of them to attract prey). I think it makes more sense being the Apostle that killed Corcus though...  :puck:

Now I want to go back and re-read it to see! :???:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 11:47:47 AM »
Really? That was what I thought when I went back to read Berserk after the Eclipse, but one of my friends pointed out that the Apostle who killed Corcus used a female decoy rather than transformed into a female (kind of like how those deep sea fishies have a light that dangles in front of them to attract prey).

It didn't use a decoy, it just showed itself as a beautiful woman and when Carcus was in its arm it took its apostle form.

Offline Waychel

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 12:00:19 PM »
It didn't use a decoy, it just showed itself as a beautiful woman and when Carcus was in its arm it took its apostle form.

Ah okie, thanks for explaining that to me! Now those first few pages of the manga make more sense... although it doesn't make it any less bizarre to me that Guts was doing the Apostle chick.  :serpico:

Offline Woland

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2007, 10:21:32 PM »
Well, it was also a good shock image for the first page of Berserk.  Besides, it got Guts past her defenses.
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Offline artha5

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2007, 08:10:48 PM »
The other factor is that child that appears to Guts and Casca, i mean, the fetus i think it was the child between Guts and Casca that was corrupted by Femto and later became his vessel to take a human form, but then where did that child at the beach appeared from? even the group mentions how similar he is to Guts and Casca, besides the fact of getting Guts out of his Berserk-self. I'm really looking forward to see him and know where did he came from.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2007, 09:18:29 PM »
The other factor is that child that appears to Guts and Casca, i mean, the fetus i think it was the child between Guts and Casca that was corrupted by Femto and later became his vessel to take a human form, but then where did that child at the beach appeared from? even the group mentions how similar he is to Guts and Casca, besides the fact of getting Guts out of his Berserk-self. I'm really looking forward to see him and know where did he came from.

No answers to that question have been given yet, but there's plenty of speculation on it.  If you run a search for it, you'll find the appropriate thread(s) to discuss The Moonlight Boy.

Offline Phemt81

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2007, 04:55:38 PM »
It didn't use a decoy, it just showed itself as a beautiful woman and when Carcus was in its arm it took its apostle form.

Mmm, i don't think so... I mean, she just showed her "human" form to Carcus to attract him, it's not like apostles can use the appearence they want.

The Beherit changes their "basic human form", so that they can't be recognized by humans, just like Wyald that was changed in a stronger basic human form, even if he was just an old man originally (before using the Beherit ).
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 05:16:32 PM »
I mean, she just showed her "human" form to Carcus to attract him, it's not like apostles can use the appearence they want.

She used her human form (pretty woman) to lure him and then transformed into her apostle form. I don't know what part of my post you didn't get, but I assure you that I'm right.

The Beherit changes their "basic human form", so that they can't be recognized by humans, just like Wyald that was changed in a stronger basic human form, even if he was just an old man originally (before using the Beherit).

I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't see how it's supposed to be relevant to the point.

Offline Phemt81

Re: So what do you guys think about the fetus? Last minute idea?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 07:57:01 PM »
She used her human form (pretty woman) to lure him and then transformed into her apostle form. I don't know what part of my post you didn't get, but I assure you that I'm right.

Yeah, you are. In the previous post it seemed like you were saying that apostles can change their form as they desire. Just my impression probably  :guts:

I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't see how it's supposed to be relevant to the point.

I was explaining my point taking as an example that Wyald was a little old man before using his Beherit
« Last Edit: August 04, 2007, 05:17:32 PM by Phemt81 »
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