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Berserk => Anime Asylum => Topic started by: IncantatioN on June 18, 2013, 08:30:11 PM

Title: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IncantatioN on June 18, 2013, 08:30:11 PM
Figured we'd need a topic for reviews, please post your thoughts/ reviews here and also cast a vote! (keeping the spirit alive of earlier polls, I've combined the poll-text)

Maybe Heisenberg's post can be moved here?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 18, 2013, 08:34:55 PM
Ok I just finished the movie. I'm gonna start out by saying that this movie is easily the best of the trilogy, however it's also a lot of what we've come to expect. So basically if you liked the previous movies, be prepared to like this one even more. If you thought the previous two films were shit, then I don't think the improvement in quality here is going to be enough to save the film series for you.

So the first ten minutes we've all seen on youtube in terrible quality, so I won't go too in depth on that. The shaky cam flashback/vision thing that Griffith had in the dungeon, while handled much better than the Guts and Casca flashbacks, still seemed like it could have been done better. It was more about illustrating the way Guts made Griffith turn away from his dream, but for those who haven't seen the 90s anime or read the manga it might be somewhat hard to pick up on.

Switching the snake baron with the female apostle was an odd choice, but the change in size isn't as strange as people on here have made it out to be. The snake apostle shows up as tall as the trees in the manga as well, even though when he fights Guts he's much smaller.

Silat's appearance is fairly memorable, but without subs it's difficult to tell how honest they were being to the character. It seemed as though they were making him out to be more sinister than he really is in the manga. There were some spectacular visuals in his fight with Guts and Casca though. Guts' return seemed forced though. Watching the movies consecutively it seems almost as though no time has passed from when he departed to now (at least from his perspective. He never hears about the raid on the Hawks or anything. Having him randomly Batman in to save them without ever explaining to the audience where he's been or how he knew to come will be hard to swallow for anybody who hasn't read the manga.

We get a bit of development for the Hawks when Guts first comes back, but not all that much.

Casca attacking Guts and breaking down sort of comes out of nowhere, but the scene itself is pretty well done. The animation is great here, especially the background with the trees and waterfall, and Casca as she's going over the cliff...

UNTIL THE CHOPPY ANIMATION SHOWS UP AGAIN TO RUIN OUR IMMERSION. After a few seconds of that garbage the scene goes back to normal, and the way the rest of it plays out is actually pretty touching. The sex scene itself was graphic, but without being complete fap bait. One problem I had here is that I felt they were a bit dishonest with the scene. As we know in the manga Casca is in pain at first, and then of course Guts chokes her and has that big breakdown, and it ends with her accepting his dysfunction and taking a "wound" to protect him (emotionally). In the movie the sex scene is made out to be all sunshine and rainbows (literally, they pan to a rainbow at one point). The scene was good from a cinematic point of view, but as I said, not what it was supposed to be with the original story. Neither of them make any mention of their sexual abuse that I could discern.

We've all also seen the Skull Knight's first appearance on youtube and know it was awesome, all I'll add to this it looks incredible on Blu Ray on a big screen tv. They have some spooky clouds roll in and Casca refuses to wake up, not sure if they're going to keep the cloud thing for every appearance he makes, but it fit well enough here.

The next scene we see is Guts Casca and their merry men sneaking into the castle to rescue Griffith. They skipped the rescue planning, but we all probably saw that coming. Time constraints, whatever. It's hard to tell exactly what Charlotte says about Gaiseric, but the scene seemed to be the same as it was in the manga. The one difference that might be the "confirmation" that people were talking about, of him being the Skull Knight, is that his eyes are glowing. But SKs eyes glow purple and Gaiseric's were kind of red, which might just have been a reflection of the fire all around him. Also it might just have been an artistic choice, the character was surrounded by bodies, blood, and fire, so it's obviously not a literal flashback. We even get to see the branded bodies at the bottom of the pit. I'm VERY happy they included that, I really expected it to be cut. We never see the king molest Charlotte.

The violin music when they find Griffith seems almost satirical, I would have gone with something else. Other than that they do a good job of capturing everyone's shock at the state they find Griffith in. Guts going 'berserk' on the guards during the escape is perfect. Another little preview of what he'll be like after he becomes the Black Swordsman.No Bakiraka or Wyald.

More terrible CGI when Casca fills everybody in on Griffith's condition. A bit more character development after with Judeau (not enough though).

The scene where Griffith breaks down in the water is the best emotional scene in the series so far (and one of the only ones that wasn't screwed up in some way). Way better than the 90s anime. You can really feel his frustration and despair, right before he finds the Beherit. Best immersion so far. Then everybody looks up and see's the eclipse starting to happen, and you know the shits about to hit the fan.

I didn't really like the shaky way the Beherit's face rearranged itself, but the overall scene where Guts touches Griffith's shoulder and it starts to scream is great. There's an extremely spooky feel to the setting once everybody is transported to Hell. The Godhand intros are great, especially Void's. We even get a non choppy flashback/vision of little Griffith. The scene with all the corpses is creepy as all Hell. Although one tiny beef here, it would have been better had they included the scene in the last movie of that child soldier who died in Griffith's service.

At this point I should mention that the scene where SK rescues Rickert is completely skipped over. If there's an explanation as to why he's not with the others then I missed it due to not understanding Japanese. Most of the apostles are CGI, but it in no way takes away from the scene. If anything it adds to their creepy appearance. That being said if they continue to CGI them all when Guts takes them 1v1, in the light of day, I'll take issue with that. Each of the main characters get their individual death scene. It stays fairly true to the manga. Although the apostle that kills Judeau looks stupid...

The scene with SK and Zodd is fantastic, although we don't get to see the whole fight. Not that we ever actually get to see them fight in the manga anyway. They always exchange one or two blows, then it cuts to a different panel with Rickert or Grunbeld remarking on the epic battle we're missing...

We see Griffith tripping balls while he's undergoing the transformation with some weird images of cave men killing each other and such, not sure how I felt about that.

Femto's unveiling happened a little fast, considering how much they built up everything else. Not really a fan of the choice of music either, when Femto first started uh... you know... to Casca. Once the idiotic music stopped the rape itself and Guts' mutilation were pretty horrifying. It was more or less in tone with the feel of the manga. The SKull Knights entrance was one of the most badass things we've seen in these movies.

Casca's loss of sanity is almost sickening. In the sense that you wanna laugh at her reactions at first, until you remember the context of the scene and then feel ill.

One wtf moment I had. Guts already has the scar across his chest from where Slan slashes his armor off in the troll den? Some storyboard artist goofed a bit here.

The film ends with Guts seeing the sunrise after fighting off the spirits all night. Now there is some good and some bad news here. The good news is, after the credits we get to see, DUH DAH DAH DAH

Guts suiting up as the black swordsman!

The bad news is that this means they completely skipped the birth of the demon child. I am going to be pissed as Hell if they don't show that in the next film/OVA/episode/whatever. And I don't mean as a choppy fucking flashback...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 18, 2013, 08:48:04 PM
"Enjoyable/ good, but disappointing in certain aspects."

Again with this wishy-washy answer? This is a terribly worded poll answer that covers a wide range of possible feelings. Poll answers should be distinct. Otherwise people pick it because it fits in with multiple reactions.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 18, 2013, 08:50:52 PM
"Enjoyable/ good, but disappointing in certain aspects."

Again with this wishy-washy answer? This is a terribly worded poll answer that covers a wide range of possible feelings. Poll answers should be distinct. Otherwise people pick it because it fits in with multiple reactions.
I don't really think the wording matters that much. It's  basic 1-5 star rating. People will pick that option if they liked the movie but not enough to give it a perfect rating, however it's worded.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 18, 2013, 08:54:12 PM
I don't really think the wording matters that much. It's  basic 1-5 star rating. People will pick that option if they liked the movie but not enough to give it a perfect rating, however it's worded.
A basic 5 star rating would be much more neutral, and preferable.  These wordy answers are written in a leading manner. "This... but this!"
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IncantatioN on June 18, 2013, 09:15:21 PM
Feel free to edit the poll Walter, I don't know how to edit the poll. To me, they weren't leading/ misleading the reviewer to imply something they didn't already express in their review.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 18, 2013, 09:47:18 PM


We see Griffith tripping balls while he's undergoing the transformation with some weird images of cave men killing each other and such, not sure how I felt about that.



I laughed when I read that.
And WTF is up with skipping the demon child's birth? The very best we'll get now in the next movies or w/e they chose is some flashback of it happening, IF they even chose to do that.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SamNeillium on June 18, 2013, 10:44:48 PM
I really want to see the demon child wandering the land looking for hugs in the next animation. Even if it means having a silly flashback...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 18, 2013, 10:50:46 PM
I really want to see the demon child wandering the land looking for hugs in the next animation. Even if it means having a silly flashback...
I wouldn't care if they make it a real flashback, but not this choppy no dialogue shit.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: DirectDK on June 19, 2013, 02:15:11 AM
... the trilogy is complete!

(http://www.berserkstatues.com/skdotnet/berserk_trilogy_bd.jpg)

Well, I have yet to watch the entire film, but I thought I'd give some details of the bluray.

3 discs

- 1st disc, R15+ version with 4 audio options (jpn stereo, jpn dts, jpn dolby digital 5.1, jpn commentary dd 5.1), jpn subtitles, special features

- 2nd disc, R18+ version with ONLY ONE AUDIO OPTION... and it's sadly jpn stereo... as in NOT SURROUND SOUND.  There is NO menu, NO options to toggle any audio tracks, NO subtitle tracks, etc.  nada.  ONLY STEREO!!!

- 3rd disc, CD, with 3 tracks: BERSERK_episode2_lunar conquest suite, Blood and Guts_despair version, BERSERK_episode3_lunar eclipse suite.  All of them sound of the same as the songs from the previous movies, except for the 1st track (lunar conquest).  During the middle of the track, there is some Susumu style music going on!  Although, I don't think it's actually Susumu, it's a good imitation.

Also comes with a poster.  Haven't unravelled it yet though...

So yeah, the big bummer here is that the R18+ version only has stereo as an audio option.  This is really frustrating.  Part of the joy of these movies for me is the tremendous soundscape and surround sound.  The battles (and I can imagine the Eclipse) will be much more thrilling to watch with glorious dts.  So... in this case, I think I'm going to have to opt for the R15+ version for now.  From what I've read, it seems like it's still the most graphic anime ever, haha, so I think I'll be alright.  One day I'll get to the R18+ version.  I really hope that when Viz releases the bluray stateside they will have a full DTS or DD5.1 audio track for the R18+...  Seems silly not to.

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gobolatula on June 19, 2013, 02:52:49 AM
This time around, I took a cue from Griffith and took a bunch of notes...

(http://www.gobolatula.com/berk3review.jpg)

Unfortunately, I'm not that great of a reviewer and most of what I wrote is shit, so I'll try to summarize...

While the 3rd movie was visually better than the first 2, it still felt incredibly half-assed. Too much was cut. I'm disappointed again.

Maybe I'll do a more in-depth review later. Meh. This has been an experience.

EDIT:

Things I Liked:
-Slightly better animation, less crappy CG
-Skull Knight being there
-The animation sequence when charlotte was talking about King Gaiseric
-They did a decent job of making Griffith look genuinely fucked up and pathetic in this movie.
-The eclipse was brutal at times and it was nice to see certain apostles
-I liked the Griffith's "transformation / plummeting" scene. Even though I had no fucking idea what was happening in it. I think they just drew trippy shit half the time, but it *looked* cool.
-Slan's BUSH

Things I Hated
-Shitty CG
-Silat comes off like just some asshole
-Fucked up the love scene
-Fucked up Griffith's rescue
-Fucked up the escape
-No Wyald
-No emotion that was there in the manga was properly expressed
-Judo doesn't get his last words
-Guts VS Femto: There is a moment where Guts almost lands a blow on Femto... And Femto, while raping Casca, has a face like, "This CANNOT BE!" Then he uses his bird powers to push Guts away again properly.
-Lots of other stuff
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Dar Klink on June 19, 2013, 03:09:14 AM
Think you can scan or transcribe those notes Gobs? I can't read most of it. BIRD COCK stands out though. :femto:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gobolatula on June 19, 2013, 03:26:43 AM
Think you can scan or transcribe those notes Gobs? I can't read most of it. BIRD COCK stands out though. :femto:
Sure. Here's my notes.

-Opening seq Grif kid kinda looks cool
-Animation vastly improved
-Hawk again.... Oh birdy...
-Knight toy is Griffith's??
-Kid Griff distracted by Guts WTF
-Griffith can see into the future??
-Giant Snaketits
-Opening theme sorta growing on me
-No Guts on his own...
-Shitty CG Horses
-Silat sounds like a prick
-And looks like one
-Guts' entrance not as cool
-Wobbly Silat (weapon) noise cool
-This is horse shit.
-Skip RIGHT to love scene...
-Awkward moment, Casca VS Guts
-Guts' blood looks like chili
-Expressions exaggerated
-Love scene. Only gave me sort of a boner
-"I waited a whole year for some sweet sweet love making and Guts came in like 5 seconds like a frat boy and poor Casca was a knot hole in a tree that somebody shoved Vaseline in." - Grail
-Skull Knight is a perv &/or mood ruiner
-Look at them butt cheeks
-No transition to Griffith's rescue
-GAISERIC!!! (drawing of cartoon dick ejaculating)
-Nice lantern falling
-Griffith looks fucked up
-Lots more 2D animation in this
-CG looks shitty again. Guts escaping
-Awkward escape: Shields on spears
-Getting chased by nobodies
-Saved by Carcus??
-Way to go Carcus
-Nice that they put (Griffith) armor scene in. Guts dressing him up
-Wyald would've helped create despair
-No Griffith's fucked up body dangling in front of them all
-Griffith looks FUCKED UP & pathetic when attempted-raping Casca
-Griffith imagining castle cool when he's in the carriage
-Good job at showing Griffith pathetic
-Eclipse beginning FX cool
-Now is NOT the time for shitty CG
-I love Slan NICE BUSH!!
-Void's brain is too small
-Why are they giants
-Is Slan saying all Void's lines?
-Don't like the blue
-Chocolate pretzels rule
-20% more maggots
-Oh I guess Rickert is gone
-I hate yinyang apostle
-No last words??
-Griffith sinking scene is SO COOOOL ... surreal but cool looking
-(Guts) yelling out names in  wrong order
-Bye bye Gaston
-Femto ROARS??
-Too much hesitation on Guts' part (when Femto begins raping Casca)
-Hate slow-mo effect
-Femto powers stopping him? Guts fighting back??
-BIRD COCK
-Skull Knight RULES
-Slan wound?
-Guts isn't pissed enough fighting these things off
- _________
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IncantatioN on June 19, 2013, 03:42:32 AM
Oh my god, notes! Gonna read em after I see the movie, sooooooooooooo tempted hahaha ... *eyes scroll up by accident* D'OH! *looks at keyboard* ... Did you pause the movie to write all that down?

Seeing all three movies side-by-side does look epic. Sucks on the inconsistency as far as sound/ features goes for the R15+ and R18+. I don't see the benefit in not giving the end-user all options for an optimal viewing experience.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gobolatula on June 19, 2013, 03:44:28 AM
Did you pause the movie to write all that down?
Nah, I wrote them as I was watching. Hence the bad handwriting.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IncantatioN on June 19, 2013, 03:54:08 AM
Cool skill ... I couldn't do that.

By the way guys, out of the three which is your favorite drawing by Miura? 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Grail on June 19, 2013, 04:04:31 AM
-I liked the Griffith's "transformation / plummeting" scene. Even though I had no fucking idea what was happening in it. I think they just drew trippy shit half the time, but it *looked* cool.
Yeah, I was almost thinking that the Idea was going to show up when it first started, but then the cavemen threw me for a loop. :ganishka: It was interesting to see them try something so different. Also, not to be mean, but it was nice to get a break from the regular animation...

-Slan's BUSH
:slan: This just in: the carpet does not match the drapes!

Anyway, despite a few nice surprises (the lantern falling to the bottom of the tower, Griffith's pre-Eclipse moment at the lake) it was more or less what most of us expected: better than the first two, but ultimately falling short as an adaptation. I think the biggest culprit was Guts and Casca's love(?)scene, which pretty much follows the precedent set in the 2nd movie's Griffith/Charlotte scene. That is, missing the entire point and going for some cheap titillation. There's no convincing basis to their relationship in this movie series, which sets the creators up for some serious problems if they want to continue into the Black Swordsman Arc and beyond.

Also, what was up with Rickert? Did he get stuck in traffic on the way to the Eclipse or something?

PS: In answer to your question Canty, I've got to go with the first cover. :guts:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 19, 2013, 04:28:17 AM
With the caveman I think they were going for the old cliche the first caveman clubs his neighbor to death and thus evil was born, etc. Kind of in theme with the Idea being made up of the evil that exists in human hearts and so on and so forth.

I forgot to mention Guts almost stabbing Femto. I wasn't sure if they were trying to show Guts almost overpowering him, or Femto just screwing around with him. based on the laughs from the apostles afterwards I got the feeling it was the latter.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: ApostleBob on June 19, 2013, 05:05:20 AM
Has anyone seen both the R15 and R18 version?  If so, what are the differences?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SrCraneo on June 19, 2013, 12:06:16 PM
Goddamn, I just saw it and overall, knowing the previous two were shit, I thought this one was good overall, or maybe I should say more enjoyable. I guess I had really low expectations. But It has its high points, and they just made me hate the way they went on about these movies even more. Because they could have been so fucking good.

One thing that I did genuinely like is the sound effects. And the background art. Them together really made me feel like I was in the eclipse.

There's still really shitty cgi that just takes you out of the moment tho. Some people say they aren't bothered by it, but I try, and I just can't. It's a huge turn off.

The post-credit scene is the tits. That's how ideally it should always look.

I was into it in many parts. Although I'm not saying I'm happy with the movies, this one surpassed my expectations. So yeah, it left me a sense of satisfaction for the most part. I still wish they hadn't made them tho. I would have rather waited for something better. Also I should note that I haven't slept for a while... maybe that changed the experience a bit.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 19, 2013, 12:54:38 PM
Thanks for the reviews guys, though it sounds pretty dismal from what's been said... I'm not surprised, but it's amazing that they managed to fuck up simple things like Guts being pinned down by apostles.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Skullgrin140 on June 19, 2013, 02:56:07 PM
I'll start this off by saying, as bad as the first two films have been in terms of (downgrading the mythology, having the cast be mostly undeveloped and really making the pace feel almost too quick for anything to really happen) I was having doubts about the third film...Honestly though, it was good. Not great but good.

It's impossible where to begin seeing as these films have had a few ups and alot of downs, Descent manages to make up for all those somewhat and ends up being a great closing act for the Golden Age Arc. Although to be fair what happens in these films isn't anything we didn't already see or read about from the very beginning. So I will go through some parts of what I thought were the highs and lows of this movie.

I think the one thing that sounds out still is the Animation being so woefully conceived throughout this film, the CGI is still so unfinished and incredibly wonky and it ranges from being sloppy to just being complete wank. Especially when you see the characters move that's when everything looks awkward and really needed to be properly looked over before being handed in for finalization. For example the transformation of the Beherit and how that scene which would lead in the Eclipse really seemed very uninspired and lacked any gravity especially seeing how that scene was carried out in the 97 anime and in the manga especially really added alot to that. So still the CG is flabby in most parts and stands as the huge problem among so many others.

The 2D on the other hand is still beautiful, there are a great number of times when the film can be/and is amazing when you see how detailed the backgrounds are and how the characters designs look and move from time to time, just seeing that take into effect really was quite breathtaking mostly in the flashback of Gaiseric as well as the tomb of the branded corpses was nice to see that in animation form.

With certain introductions of well known characters like Silat & Skullknight finally appear in animation form was a real treat to see them in this film, only though Skullknights appearance right up to where Guts and Casca have finished their canoodling seem out of place and really should have only appeared right up to where Guts was on his own again for this time in ages. I am disappointed beyond belief that Wyald & the black dog nights were cut out of this film, his character I always was fascinated by not because he was a violent rapist criminal but because of his apostle status always stirred as something interesting, but for so many reasons it feels fine to leave him out.

The characters really I feel over the course of these movies, you really did not care weather or not they died because none of them received any of the fleshed out and well carried development that occurred in the manga & 97 anime. That still stands as a major problem for me as growing attached to the characters from the original duration of the story.

The Music which ended up being nothing more than bland, uninspired and forgettable in the 2 first films is reduced to being incredibly inappropriate as this film plays along because looking at certain scenes in this movie which looking back on the 97 anime only ever worked with Silence so you enjoy the atmosphere of what is going on or with the music Hirasawa provided just because it hit at the right moment. Not to mention the Bombastic and forced Orchestra strings really just seemed to be shoe-horned in right at the last minute. One scene above all others which is a good example is the Rape Scene which having some jarring piano score play whilst this horrible act was going on really it felt less heartbreaking and more unintentionally funny, it took alot of sadness out of that scene for me and made it weird to watch that scene.

To see the Rape Scene as well however, unlike the 97 anime where it was not as graphical or as hard hitting really was cranked up and was as heartbreaking and vile as it was in the manga so I am pleased the film didn't tone that down a tad, however by ruining the scene where Guts is pinned down by the Apostles like Aazealh mention where in Guts charges and just as he is about to strike at Femto just gets pulled back by some psychic blast (AND THEN PINNED DOWN BY THE APOSTLES!) it's amazing how that powerful scene could get ruined and changed in a minute.

So really what can I say about this film is, it has it's moments and manages to do everything the manga did so well and the 97 anime didn't have and at the same time promises some gorgeous animation from time to time. But my biggest problem really with this film was it felt that everything that was in this arc that took place in this movie either happened way too quickly or was not properly carried out long enough and suffered from that habit of cramming too much into a limited running time and just felt like it lacked the time and care it deserved.

Now that this arc is over I am somewhat dreading what will become of the other arcs and how much of that will be chopped up and beaten to death by people with little knowledge of the story. This would have made more sense to make a new TV series than make a trilogy of films that ended up downgrading and changing so much of what makes this story so incredible.

Also one thing I want to point to close this off, as underwhelming and drab the Beherit scene was. The use of slo-motion and mechanical whirring sound effects that sped up and slowed down in that scene worked perfectly in what that scene was trying to get across, One thing that pleased me among many criticisms I have with this film.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Julalien on June 19, 2013, 04:47:18 PM
I guess that was Rosine who flew by the screen after Puck's cameo? What a fucking mess. There are some cool effects and some very nice 2D animation at times but it's a travesty of an adaptation. It is the 'best' of the three films, but that's not exactly a compliment at this point.


Apart from the awkwardness of Guts being slightly under dressed during their first meeting, Skull Knight steals the show completely. Gaiseric's story was the other highlight of the film. Nice to see a part of the manga adapted without some sort of change.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 19, 2013, 09:39:38 PM
Gaiseric's story was the other highlight of the film. Nice to see a part of the manga adapted without some sort of change.

From what I gathered there seems to have been some pretty significant changes actually.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 19, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
From what I gathered there seems to have been some pretty significant changes actually.
How so?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 19, 2013, 10:12:17 PM
How so?
Where do you want to begin...?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 19, 2013, 10:15:25 PM
Where do you want to begin...?
I really don't know what you mean. Unless there was something in the audio I didn't understand since I don't speak Japanese. All we got was the one picture of him, then we saw the branded corpses in the pit. It seemed more or less consistent with what we saw in the manga.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 19, 2013, 10:57:34 PM
I really don't know what you mean. Unless there was something in the audio I didn't understand since I don't speak Japanese. All we got was the one picture of him, then we saw the branded corpses in the pit. It seemed more or less consistent with what we saw in the manga.
Ah, I thought you meant for the whole movie... But in that scene , they make Gaiseric's eyes glow in a blatant way to make him similar to Skull Knight. Pretty gross and unnecessary--like a lot of the changes.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: puppet12ca on June 19, 2013, 11:37:35 PM
One Thing I noted was that although the child soldier would have been a nice addition to the road of corpses scene I like the fact that Julius and Gennon were shown in that scene. Overall I liked this movie despite a few hijinks
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 19, 2013, 11:46:15 PM
Ah, I thought you meant for the whole movie... But in that scene , they make Gaiseric's eyes glow in a blatant way to make him similar to Skull Knight. Pretty gross and unnecessary--like a lot of the changes.
Yea I felt like they were tryingt o spoon feed the Skull Knight connection to the audience. More than anything else it pissed me off that they skipped the birth of the demon baby, they could have easily tacked another 10 minutes on to the movie for that.

And is nobody else going to comment on Guts already have the Slan scar on his chest?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Tama on June 20, 2013, 12:48:31 AM
I don't think I've seen anyone say yet thats watched the film mention Godot. I know we assumed he probably wouldn't be in it judging from the info that we did know about the movie theater release in Japan, but I was just curious if someone who has seen it could elaborate on how they tell the story of Guts training and getting the Dragon slayer and armor with out him.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Julalien on June 20, 2013, 12:50:39 AM
I didn't find the eyes to be that terrible. I would be interested in knowing what they omitted or changed from Gaiseric's story. I'm not terribly fluent in Japanese but what I did understand seemed pretty close to what I remembered from the manga. I certainly could have missed something.

The scar on Guts' chest was just another in a long line of lazy errors in this series.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 01:08:58 AM
I don't think I've seen anyone say yet thats watched the film mention Godot. I know we assumed he probably wouldn't be in it judging from the info that we did know about the movie theater release in Japan, but I was just curious if someone who has seen it could elaborate on how they tell the story of Guts training and getting the Dragon slayer and armor with out him.
He's not in it sadly, we see Erica though. Basically we get nothing from the time Guts is on his own, when he wakes up and see's how damaged Casca is he runs off and the movie ends when he's killing spirits with the Skull Knight's sword. Then after the credits we see him suiting up as the Black Swordsman and walking off into the mist with the Dragonslayer.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on June 20, 2013, 01:42:05 AM
Haven't seen it yet but am really just hoping the Eclipse is done well. Sad to hear Judo's last words are omitted. I'd think the fanservice there would've called for that at least. =/

Also Guts/Casca's love scene not being faithful oddly really really angers, above all else. I'm sure I'll find much more to be upset with but for now that's the big one for me for some reason.

This fuckin' studio, I swear.

The scene with SK and Zodd is fantastic, although we don't get to see the whole fight. Not that we ever actually get to see them fight in the manga anyway. They always exchange one or two blows, then it cuts to a different panel with Rickert or Grunbeld remarking on the epic battle we're missing...

Uh... what?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 02:02:45 AM
Haven't seen it yet but am really just hoping the Eclipse is done well. Sad to hear Judo's last words are omitted. I'd think the fanservice there would've called for that at least. =/

Also Guts/Casca's love scene not being faithful oddly really really angers, above all else. I'm sure I'll find much more to be upset with but for now that's the big one for me for some reason.

This fuckin' studio, I swear.

Uh... what?
What Darkhorse calls the dragon guy, I don't use the Japanese names, not familiar with em all and can't keep track.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 20, 2013, 02:19:20 AM
More cohesive review soon, and we will be talking about it on the podcast. For now:

Good:

Bad:

Ugly:

This movie made me like Berserk less. 1 star.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 02:41:01 AM
I think some of you guys are being a little extreme in the hate of the series. Even a complete bastardization of Berserk is better than half of the other stuff our there. Skull Knight's attack on the Eclipse is good, but not awesome enough so it's bad? C'mon... The animation and action sequences alone here are worth more than 1 star.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 20, 2013, 02:57:36 AM
I think some of you guys are being a little extreme in the hate of the series. Even a complete bastardization of Berserk is better than half of the other stuff our there.
What other stuff? Other Berserk adaptations? Or are you talking about Naruto movies? I'm grading this as a movie about Berserk on its own merit, as a fan of Berserk.

Quote
Skull Knight's attack on the Eclipse is good, but not awesome enough so it's bad? C'mon... The animation and action sequences alone here are worth more than 1 star.
(http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/sk-action.jpg)
SK's in there somewhere, and I bet the animation is killer!

As for why I lumped it into Bad, I felt it was pretty self explanatory--he's off camera too often, with most action being implied rather than shown. So, the bad outweighed the good.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 20, 2013, 05:28:19 AM
Yea I felt like they were tryingt o spoon feed the Skull Knight connection to the audience.

It's just completely stupid, too. The manga actually shows Gaiseric's human eye (as he was human then, without glowing eyes), so that goes directly against it.

And is nobody else going to comment on Guts already have the Slan scar on his chest?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but honestly I don't even know what to tell you man... It just makes me sad.

I think some of you guys are being a little extreme in the hate of the series. Even a complete bastardization of Berserk is better than half of the other stuff our there.

Those movies lessen the series by sullying its name, story, characters, themes.

You know, even looking at your own review, you almost only mention dreadfully bad things about the movie, and yet your general outlook is relatively positive. That's where the inconsistency is to me.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: JezzaX on June 20, 2013, 05:32:38 AM
I found the film to be very average. There are very few scenes that got me excited and even those were riddled with problems of being poorly cut or short lived. The scene with SK and Zodd just seemed really empty, it's nice to see a fight between them being animated, but it could have been done so much better. How it ended was also really abrupt, I was hoping to see Guts wield the DS for the first time, but without introducing Godo they really put themselves into a corner  :judo:

Nope, not impressed.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 06:10:10 AM
You know, even looking at your own review, you almost only mention dreadfully bad things about the movie, and yet your general outlook is relatively positive. That's where the inconsistency is to me.
I wasn't trying to make the film seem better than it was. I didn't think I skipped over any of the negatives, besides maybe the part where Guts almost stabs Femto, which I really just forgot to mention as I was typing it out. Perhaps I did focus more on the things that I liked rather than the things I didn't, but that's just because I enjoyed the film. I wouldn't put it anywhere near the same level as the manga, but I never expected it to be. I don't think it was a masterpiece, but I wouldn't call it a travesty either. I certainly wasn't trying to put a dishonest spin on my review.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 20, 2013, 08:05:40 AM
I wasn't trying to make the film seem better than it was. I didn't think I skipped over any of the negatives, besides maybe the part where Guts almost stabs Femto, which I really just forgot to mention as I was typing it out. Perhaps I did focus more on the things that I liked rather than the things I didn't, but that's just because I enjoyed the film.

I think you misread what I wrote. I meant that your review actually mentioned a lot of bad things, things that would totally break the movie for me, but that in spite of all those bad points your final take on it seems, to me, surprisingly forgiving.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on June 20, 2013, 11:10:52 AM
Then after the credits we see him suiting up as the Black Swordsman and walking off into the mist with the Dragonslayer.

So they almost ended it the same way the old anime ended it. Blackswordsman leaving in the mist... but this time without Godot. That's sad.. They could at least shown the pig apostle...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: frankencowx on June 20, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
You know, even looking at your own review, you almost only mention dreadfully bad things about the movie, and yet your general outlook is relatively positive. That's where the inconsistency is to me.

I noticed this as well =/ The justification isn't there. There are lots of reviews like this on here across all 3 movies.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gill on June 20, 2013, 12:33:28 PM
I didn't plan watching this movie at all, but at the end I looked it up online only to watch the Guts vs. Silat fight, and I'm very disappointed  :sad:

The thing that bugged me the most was that he tried to fight back even after his turban was cut off. Wtf. I always thought that that was the moment when he decided to leave, because it was humiliating for him. We haven't really seen Baakiraka men exposing their hair, they always either covered their heads or were bald, that's why I always thought that having their turban removed was something that's not supposed to happen...

I gave 3 stars but I feel like I was too generous...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 20, 2013, 12:49:27 PM
I didn't plan watching this movie at all, but at the end I looked it up online only to watch the Guts vs. Silat fight, and I'm very disappointed  :sad:

The thing that bugged me the most was that he tried to fight back even after his turban was cut off. Wtf. I always thought that that was the moment when he decided to leave, because it was humiliating for him. We haven't really seen Baakiraka men exposing their hair, they always either covered their heads or were bald, that's why I always thought that having their turban removed was something that's not supposed to happen...

I gave 3 stars but I feel like I was too generous...
If you only watched the first 10 minutes of the movie, rating it isn't very appropriate.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Nomad on June 20, 2013, 01:23:15 PM
So... In the end we were right on the sudden cut straight to the sneaking in Griffith rescue scene.  Well, at least they didn't just mention Charlotte for helping them eh?  The facial expressions played a huge role in this film.  Both for good and bad.  We can choose about 50+ scenes that this trilogy missed the core personality of most characters, but when they (finally) hit a right note? It works well. I'm referring to Griffith's rude awakening scene that really stood out in a good way (for once). Though I can see people not agreeing with me, for a moment I truly felt Griffith's despair as he flaps his arms into the water.  Another would be Casca's facial expression at the beginning of the Eclipse.  And speaking of the Eclipse...

What's with the music?!  I never thought I would bring myself to compare both new and old anime... But I truly missed Hirasawa in the entire sequence.  We however get to enjoy a mix between random genres that really throws off the atmosphere as a whole.  New genre?  Vortex Jazz!   

It saddens me how low these films have gotten.  I have no clue on what this company is trying to accomplish, but it's not working for me.  If there was ever hope of a better animated Berserk version than the 1st one?  These people made sure this didn't happen in my lifetime.  Thanks Studio 4c!

Walter, loved your review btw.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: ApostleBob on June 20, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
So I just saw Berserk: Descent last night.

While there was some atmospheric stuff I liked about it and a few individual scenes that were well handled, overall I wasn’t very impressed.

First I’ll get the music and animation out of the way.  The score in this film goes from bland to just distractingly bad.  I much preferred the music from the previous two installments.  The music in the dungeon as they rescue Griffith ruins the mood of the scene,  a scene that would’ve been far more effective with no score at all. The music during the getaway chase sounded a hell of a lot like the theme from the first film played in reverse.  The music during the eclipse was bland compared to the very moody and effective “Murder” from the anime.  And then Beethoven for the rape, which was interesting but distracting. Weird, weird choices. 

Animation wise there are some solid improvements in the 2D animations.  No more odd expressions like Guts at the dance, and generally very fluid work.  This 2D animation work and the beautiful backgrounds were often the best thing about movie. They give off a great atmosphere and realism.  Best yet, they avoided the Super Mario jumps that had me groaning in the first two films.  This aspect was a solid improvement.

3D animation is a mixed bag.  I think it works great during most of the eclipse.  The environment and the apostles feel appropriate.  But when they have close up to medium shots of CG extras… it’s uncanny valley.  This is especially bad after the hawks are celebrating after the castle chase as Corcus and some soulless dolls cheer their successful rescue.  Also a major offender is the soul blob that visits Griffith in his cell.  This thing looks like Beast Wars.  It’s atrocious.

Now that the technical is out of the way, how was story?  Well how about rushed and badly paced.  There are bits that feel like they take their time such as the scenes of despair after the hawks learn about Griffith and Griffith runs away to the lake.  Much of the Eclipse feels right.  The opening and rescue feel terribly rushed though. It’s especially weird with the long fight and love scene between Casca and Guts jammed between a very abbreviated Silat fight and dungeon rescue / chase that’s set a breakneck speed. And the ending is as terrible as I predicted.  Long and without punch.

 We barely see the tower of Rebirth from the outside, we just suddenly are inside it after we meet the princess. Other than the distracting music, the dungeon scene is fairly well done, including Guts losing it. But as soon as he kills the soldiers on the stairs, we jump to the rescue party getting shelter from some random Midlander in the city.  I guess he gives them a horse and cart. And we’re off on a very different chase than the anime or manga.

They have to make it through the city gates in a creative way involving Gaston and some shields on the end of spears. Then they are pursued by maybe fifty knights on the road while avoiding raining arrows.  One general annoyance I’ve always had with these films is the superhuman ability of all the Hawks to easily deflect arrows with their swords. That’s ridiculous, why not just use a shield? Anyway Guts and Pippin fall back to delay the knights in a nice nod to their stand against the Black Dog knights.  It’s pretty anticlimactic though.  Corcus saves the day with his archers and blah blah blah. 

It was a better pursuit than the anime, but I was sorely disappointed that Wyald wasn’t included.  This felt way too easy for the Hawks and I never felt like there was any real danger.  I mean we just established that Guts can singlehandedly kill 100 soldiers, so why are fifty knights going to look like an obstacle?

Anyway, then we have an added scene in a woods where Wyald should have been. The Hawks are ignorant to Griffiths condition and Guts has a nice scene with Griffith in which he puts armor on him (which disappears in the next scene.)  Casca realizes what this means for the Hawks and we cut to the despair scene in the meadow where she tells everyone that Griffith is finished.  The Hawks never see his broken body, and a lot of impact and humiliation are lost.  Grrr.

Wagon scenes are pretty intact.  Griffith’s vision of chasing the boy is well done.  No dream of Griffith being cared for by Casca in a cottage, but I think that’s okay for pacing reasons.  Lake scene is extremely well done until the Beherit activates.  It makes dub step noises and shoots psychedelic lights.  Ugh.

Blue Eclipse world is different, but I’m okay with it.  It feels a lot more dead and decrepit with dust and cobwebs.  It feels like the space hasn’t been used since that last God Hand ascended.  For me, this gets a pass because it varies the look of a scenery that is largely unchanging for an hour and splits up the sequence once the brand is activated.  After that we get the red world we know and love.  I do think overall that things are too bright.  The atmosphere of the original anime and the manga have a lot more shadows in them and I always found that really effective.  It’s not bad though.

Voids brain looks too small, but otherwise I love the God Hand.  Ubik makes a stupid bubbly noise as he flies.  The alter is pretty great and Griffith’s temptation seems well done, but I’d agree with Walter that the old seamstress lady is a bit too manipulative.  A very nice touch to add Julius and Gennon to the scene as corpses he’s piled up.  I miss the boy though.  That set up always made me feel that Griffith did what he did not out of pure ambition, but because he knew that if he stopped that his men’s deaths would be for nothing.  It’s the difference between a mustache-twirling villain to a sympathetic tragic figure. 

Anyway, he says the words and the fist closes.  As Walter says, they fucked up the most meaningful last look that Guts and Griffith will share.  He’s an asshole in this version. 

Apostles have a very abbreviated transformation but are pretty awesome.  And the slaughter is horrifying.  Really brutal stuff that doesn’t feel “cool” but is actually disturbing.  Kudos for that.  Pippin gets his proper death. Judea’s is changed slightly.  He no longer gets attacked on horseback with his arm getting bitten.  Instead they ride off, cut away, and cut back to his horse tripping and throwing them off.  There is no horse-eating apostle, their horse just trips.  Very stupid. 

The apostle that gets him is somehow too well lit.  It looks stupid in the light.  Anyway his death hits all the right beats except for his “you cry a lot” line.  He does have an internal monologue of what I assume are his feelings for her.  Not terrible, but they could’ve added the last line with minimal effort. 

Casca gets grabbed without a fight, and the implied Apostle rape is completely absent.  The next time we see her, she’s being lowered before Femto, already naked.  Guts does not go on a rampage to save her before the tentacle apostle can lower her onto his spikey head.  Another needless omission that would’ve helped ramp the suspense before Femto was born. 

Speaking of which, lets talk about Femto’s weird dream.  I liked it, but it is completely non-canon.  He’s seeing the cosmos and cell mitosis, Rome burning, cave men… Not sure what was said but I imagine it’s to show how much of a god he is now.  Also a lot of psychedelic colors that felt really out of place.  This should be dark and creepy not like Tron.

If I don’t mention Guts in any of this it’s because I felt like most of what they did with him worked well up to Femto.  His fight with the apostles feels right and the lake of blood is just creepy.  The Pippin fake out with the Count is also pretty nasty.

Then Femto appears.  Good animation, I’ll say that.  And yes, he kind of roars, which is stupid.  He flies down to Guts, who’s arm is not bitten at this point.  Casca is lowered before him and he starts fondling her, and Guts just stands there confused for what seems like fifteen seconds. Femto even has time to start alternating his technique before Guts charges and gets his arm bitten.  Makes Guts seem pretty daft.  Anyway, the rape is long and more graphic than the anime, but much, much tamer than the manga.  Guts tearing his arm off is disgusting and very well done.

The bit that everyone seems to be mentioning is Femto’s force push of Guts.  It actually didn’t bother me as much as some.  He basically freezes Guts in the air just before Guts gets to him and continues to rape Casca.  Guts pushes slowly toward him and Femto telekinetically throws him back. Guts recovers, tries again, and the apostles hold him down.  To me it shows the power of Femto, and since it seems that the Black Swordsman Arc isn’t going to happen, it may be a nod to the encounter that Guts has with Femto in that arc, force push and all.  It’s a bit weird but it works.

Then Skully shows up and is awesome.  Attacks Void awesomely, slices and dices apostles awesomely.  It’s a little different than the manga but it works and looks impressive.  Femto tries to kill him just like the manga, and lets him go when he sees Guts. 

Outside we have a Puck cameo with the circus people as flying apostle start flying around. Wait, what?

Anyway Guts wakes up in the cave.  This is all fairly faithful and well done as is his run away through the woods.  Then we get the field scene with the evil specters who look like ghosts from ghost busters.  Guts tries really hard to punch them.  Skully shows up and Guts gets his sword and starts killing ghosts in a deeply dissatisfying way. They just kinda wink out of existence and it seems like guts is shadow boxing for five minutes.  Then it’s sunrise, with a really long shot pulling away from the grass.  Roll Credits.

It goes on for what feels like twenty five minutes after Skully rescued them.  No demon child.  Terribly anticlimactic ending.  The Pig apostle would have felt so much more natural.  Guts’s first step on a quest for revenge. Instead the Black swordsman gear up scene sucks and it’s AFTER the credits.  And it’s followed by a shitty music video.

Oh yeah, Rickert shows up at the Eclipse tornado out of the blue.  Did the Hawks ditch him?   And the Skull Knight fight with Zodd?  Meh.  I’m glad it’s there, but that’s about all I can say for it.  And Zodd is absent when they get out of the vortex, which leads viewers to speculate whether he was killed.

Overall, this film was horribly directed, shoddily edited, but despite this manages to grasp a handful of good scenes.  Some nice animation and often very moody, but the good will they earn is often ruined by baffling choices of music and rushed editing.  It goes through the motions on the story in a perfunctory way often times.  Yes, most of the Eclipse events happened, but not in a way that felt like the person in charge really cared.

It’s a better set up for a continued series due to SK.  That being said the anime is superior in every way other than some of its animation.  Very disappointed in the missed opportunity.

Next up, watching the R18 version.  Because apparently I’m a masochist that hopes there’s some small improvement.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lenlo on June 20, 2013, 04:57:09 PM
Sadly I am out on a work trip and won't be back to watch it till around Sunday. What everyone is saying isn't giving me to much confidence in it though.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 05:33:26 PM
I think you misread what I wrote. I meant that your review actually mentioned a lot of bad things, things that would totally break the movie for me, but that in spite of all those bad points your final take on it seems, to me, surprisingly forgiving.
Oh I see, yea I misread what you were saying.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lunchbox5000 on June 20, 2013, 06:43:17 PM

  • Carcus' death shown on-screen, finally confirming that he didn't just run off and marry that xenomorph apostle. Case closed, you guys!


Had that really been a topic of discussion? I always thought this http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d2/d2418b77b40901c4734f80e1d975338aa0869ee9064a12c51f940960.jpg cleared up his fate pretty well.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 20, 2013, 06:56:23 PM
Had that really been a topic of discussion? I always thought this http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/d2/d2418b77b40901c4734f80e1d975338aa0869ee9064a12c51f940960.jpg cleared up his fate pretty well.
Smell the thick odor of sarcasm wafting from the sentence...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 20, 2013, 08:01:25 PM
I thought Guts' face was going to change to a far more accurate version when he becomes the Black Swordsman at the least, but nope!
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: smogas on June 20, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Lunchbox I think you have problems with sarcasm. I mean it's not the first time.
Regarding movie I don't plan to watch it, by the reviews it seems pretty terrible (that Griffith grinning look *puke*) and since I didn't watch the second movie , so even more I think it would be a waste of time. Would rate it probably 1-2 but it seems wrong without watching it first so I'll withhold. It's interesting to me to see how my outlook on the movies changed from the first when they were announced and now. (From blind appreciation to not caring)

P.S. Still looking forward to the podcast though. "Movie" podcast always delivers ! :ganishka: (My post structure is so damn terrible, sorry :judo:)
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on June 20, 2013, 10:37:37 PM
What Darkhorse calls the dragon guy, I don't use the Japanese names, not familiar with em all and can't keep track.

It wasn't the spelling I was just hoping that was a typo and you meant Skullknight or maybe shit, even Puck. I know I shouldn't be surprised after Farnese and Serpico's cameo at the ball, but Grunbeld and Rickert? LOL

Sorry not trying to derail, I should have my copy in the mail today or Saturday I think.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 20, 2013, 10:43:07 PM
It wasn't the spelling I was just hoping that was a typo and you meant Skullknight or maybe shit, even Puck. I know I shouldn't be surprised after Farnese and Serpico's cameo at the ball, but Grunbeld and Rickert? LOL
I'm talking about the manga, whenevr Zodd and the Skull Knight fight they square off, then exchange a few blows, and then the next we see of it is either Rockert or Grunbeld commenting on the battle. Rickert outside the Eclipse and Grunbeld when the apostles are attacking Flora's place.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: NightCrawler on June 21, 2013, 04:53:32 AM
  • And the most egregious failure of the movie: Guts *surprises* Femto? (http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/femtoohshit.jpg) Really? Femto has to use his power to subvert Guts' effort? Utterly absurd fan service.

That scene is by far the most infuriating thing these movies could do (i haven't seen them, and i'm sure there are others equally bad, but that one stands out for me). That's just so fucking ridiculous it makes my blood boil. Seriously. That's not even fan service, it's fan fiction.

Those movies lessen the series by sullying its name, story, characters, themes.

What is more nauseating is having the so called fan base supporting these bastardizations, paying to see them, talking about them, instead of what should be the appropriate and praise worthy thing to do: to boycott this offensive mediocrity. Instead, you all go like some sex crazed teens over anything Berserk related, having no sense of dignity at all.
Please have some fucking taste goddamn it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 05:11:27 AM
What is more nauseating is having the so called fan base supporting these bastardizations, paying to see them, talking about them, instead of what should be the appropriate and praise worthy thing to do: to boycott this offensive mediocrity. Instead, you all go like some sex crazed teens over anything Berserk related, having no sense of dignity at all.
Please have some fucking taste goddamn it.
Quality is subjective. If somebody likes the series, there;s nothing wrong with supporting it. Nothing about these movies diminishes Berserk in any way.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Maxwell on June 21, 2013, 06:15:52 AM
Alright, I just seen the movie and I have to say that this poll should have a zero star rating because that's the only rating I would give this thing. I feel like giving it one star is being too generous. Honestly, Studio 4c can't do a single damn scene justice throughout this whole thing. I feel so bad for the fans who watched this.. myself included and even more, Mr. Miura. It's honestly so bad that I bet even the guy who does the blurbs on the back of the DH volumes wouldn't find it entertaining. You know, the guy who likes to see bulls getting medieval on the dishes.

The things I liked..
__

The things I didn't like..
Everything was just.. bad, like.. really bad. I have no idea why they felt the need to foreshadow the Beherit in the water. The sex scene between Guts and Casca was laughable and just sad. I felt no emotion at all in that scene. Skull Knight was badass during the scene where he meets Guts, too bad the scene was completely out of place with the fact that there was a tranquilized Casca ten feet away. I'm glad they included Charlotte telling the tale of Gaiseric and showing the skeletons down below. But why the unneeded glow to Gaiseric's eyes? I mean c'mon.. Skull Knight's appearance was literally forty five seconds before that, I'm sure the audience could've pieced it together. Any compassion I could've felt during the scene where Guts and crew find Griffith was lost because of the terrible OST.

I'm not even gonna comment on their escape. Why are they in the woods? Was Griffith dry humping Casca? Griffith's carriage run was fine but the dream of him and Casca is definitely missed. I also thought the scene of when he comes back to reality in the lake was fine and I felt for Griffith. But I just had to laugh when he saw his bone sticking out of his arm because he's just like "oh well" that scene made me laugh in the manga as well for some reason. I have to say that the only sound effect I didn't like in this movie was the Beherit. It sounded dumb and the way it took shape was in no way like the manga, what a disappointment.

Now the Eclipse.. just wow. I could handle it being blue but the way they introduced the God Hand could've been so much better. Why didn't Void bleed out of the Eclipse and why is his brain so small? The budget couldn't handle making Void's brain a few inches bigger? And did Slan's bush have force push powers? Griffith's final look to Guts was terrible yet hilarious, it was just a big fuck you, I'm awesome look. Why change something so simple? The scene where it shows Griffith inside the hand all veiny with wings was cool but then it dove into his psyche and I had no clue what the hell was going on, completely pointless.  The CGI for most of the apostles made them look like gummy bears. Hmmm actually, I'd buy me some gummy bear apostle candy. And what the fuck killed Judeau? Was that a Final Fantasy creature? Speaking of Final Fantasy.. half the OST sounded straight out of one of their titles. The cut to Rickert was so abrupt that I thought it was an ad during the movie.

Ugh.. the rape scene.. it honestly was no where near as saddening as the manga. Though when Guts cut off his arm, it looked and sounded like it really hurt. And what the fuck was up with Guts just standing there while Femto was jiggling both tits for like a whole minute? The scene with Femto force pushing Guts single handily ruined the whole eclipise. In my opinion, they made it look like Casca wasn't that distraught over the fact that Femto's penis was being plunged inside her. Maybe I was watching the R-15 version? And I always thought Femto's thrusting would be more intense and forceful, not fuckin classy golf claps. Skull Knight's entrance and rescue into the Eclipse wasn't nearly as impressive as it was in the manga. Just everything about the Eclipse just wasn't impressive. I mean hell, even the way Femto lands in front of Guts is sweeter looking in the manga. And did anyone else feel like the Star Wars soundtrack was playing in the background during the entire Eclipse? Or was it just me?

After the Eclipse wasn't that well adapted either. The scene with mentally regressed Casca in the water was okay but afterwards I didn't really like the scene of Guts running, it looked just.. stupid in my opinion. The evil spirits didn't look THAT evil to me at all, they looked huggable. And why couldn't they have the image of Femto hovering over Guts while he was laying in the grass? That was one of my favorite panels in the entire series and it could've been done really quick.. but nope. The scene of Guts suiting up as the black swordsman was fine I guess, but no Godot? ugh..

The music video at the very end would've been nice. If only the movies were you know.. like.. good. Instead it was more like "Look at our fuck up, summarized with J-pop." And did you see how it was a lone wolf and the falcon was flying above? DEEP Studio 4c. I hope Mr. Miura personally walked into their studios and told them to just "Please stop." I am so sorry Mr. Miura, your work is phenomenal and my favorite of all time and it deserves so much better.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 21, 2013, 08:28:02 AM
Nothing about these movies diminishes Berserk in any way.

I beg to differ. They undermine Berserk's reputation as a franchise and just don't do its name justice at all, they rather tarnish it, which is a purely negative outcome. They are a travesty, and the people who think them good should be ashamed of calling themselves Berserk fans.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: JoeZeon on June 21, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
What is more nauseating is having the so called fan base supporting these bastardizations, paying to see them, talking about them, instead of what should be the appropriate and praise worthy thing to do: to boycott this offensive mediocrity. Instead, you all go like some sex crazed teens over anything Berserk related, having no sense of dignity at all.
Please have some fucking taste goddamn it.
The people who think them good should be ashamed of calling themselves Berserk fans.


::)     
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 09:27:01 AM
I beg to differ. They undermine Berserk's reputation as a franchise and just don't do its name justice at all, they rather tarnish it, which is a purely negative outcome.
Except most of the people who don't like them only feel that way because they are already familiar with the superior source material. The people who have never heard of Berserk and are introduced to the series through the movies think they're great, and then they move on to the manga and love it even more. I have never, ever met anybody who saw one of these movies, without already knowing what Berserk was, and reacted to it like it was some terrible piece of shit.

Actually I take that back, I do know one. But that's because she is an uptight prude who is offended by the gratuitous gore and nudity, and reading one page of the manga would probably make her poke her own eyes out.

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The people who think them good should be ashamed of calling themselves Berserk fans.
I think they're good and I've been a Berserk fan for a long time. Miura could show up on my doorstep tomorrow, smack me in the face and tell me I should be ashamed of liking those movies, and that wouldn't make a difference to me, because I've been supporting him and the series for over 13 years now, and nobody is going to call me a bad Berserk fan.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 21, 2013, 10:39:00 AM
Actually I know a critic who rated the first movie 4/10 and he hasn't read the manga.
The problem isn't non-existent if they don't think it's terrible, but they might not find it good enough to check the original material (especially because of the moronic fanboys who tell them the adaptation is faithful and put down everyone who criticizes the way the movies were adapted) because this trilogy might just seem not as good or interesting to them and due to ignorance and misleading think the manga might not be that much better.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 21, 2013, 11:14:39 AM
::)

You can roll your eyes, that won't ward off my utter contempt.

Except most of the people who don't like them only feel that way because they are already familiar with the superior source material.

Sorry but I haven't read any rave reviews from acclaimed movie critics, nor have I heard of the many prestigious awards these movies have received. In fact, without their overwhelming commercial success, I'd be tempted to say they're a bust.

The people who have never heard of Berserk and are introduced to the series through the movies think they're great

Says who? Because I'm not seeing this "fact" you're enunciating here being translated into sales.

And in any case, it wouldn't matter if you could find a million people and have them say these movies are good. They're not. There's a limit to the subjectivity of taste, and these movies are way beyond it. They're terrible, period.

I think they're good and I've been a Berserk fan for a long time.

Well you should be ashamed of yourself.

nobody is going to call me a bad Berserk fan.

I am doing just that.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lukis on June 21, 2013, 12:14:41 PM
And again ..this movie was a bit better than previous but still was raped by all the before mentioned things. I gave it ** ,thats like 4/10 I guess. Visually it was impressive and in action it looked good,especially Eclipse,I don't know which preset I set for video when I watched it ,but it looked like movie was going at 60fps and that was kinda cool :D ,as a Slans fan, seeing her in glorious 1080p was frickin sweet   :slan: ... I am just not sure about future of these adaptations ,if they keep up with these changes and cuts ,just ,please stop ...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 21, 2013, 02:14:46 PM
Where are the other four-star reviews? I only see Heisenberg's...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gill on June 21, 2013, 03:44:17 PM
If you only watched the first 10 minutes of the movie, rating it isn't very appropriate.
Don't worry, I realised and removed my vote. Later I watched the whole thing, and I was right, 3 stars was too generous.
This movie was a fucking mess, worst possible pacing and cutting ever... Most of the time I wasn't even paying attention, just thinking about how I could've fix this movie, and shouting "What??" "How??" "Why??" and "No" repeatedly :troll:
I gave 2 stars at the end, only because Griffith's scene in the water before the Eclipse was very well done.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Sprinter24 on June 21, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
So how would you guys compare overall these three movies and the 97' anime adaptation of the Golden Age?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 21, 2013, 04:29:31 PM
So how would you guys compare overall these three movies and the 97' anime adaptation of the Golden Age?
It's not a completely fair comparison because of the run time difference. The TV series clocks in at just over 550 minutes (~22 minutes x 25 episodes), whereas the movies added together are just shy of 330 minutes. So obviously the TV series had more time to develop characters, keep key scenes intact, etc. And the TV episode format lends itself more to Berserk's structure, rather than a 3-part feature film series.

That being said... it's no contest. I found the 97 series far easier to watch than the movies. It stays true to the atmosphere of the manga, doesn't go out of its way to exaggerate things, and it's just more of a complete experience. The only real benefit of the movies is that they have a cinematic flair to them. In my opinion though, too often that cinematic quality played against the scenes.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Death May Die on June 21, 2013, 05:10:59 PM
I know I shouldn't be saying this as a Berserk fan, but after the failure to reprise a decent anime adaption I am glad this Berserk OVA series is behind us. I'm sure the 3rd movie is the most intriguing but the trilogy ended up falling pretty short. Its not like there is going to be a 3rd Berserk anime adaption in another ten years. This was our last shot. There might be more OVA's extending beyond the new trilogy but its just depressing that this new series feels tainted and polluted with flaws.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Skullgrin140 on June 21, 2013, 06:04:15 PM
So how would you guys compare overall these three movies and the 97' anime adaptation of the Golden Age?

It's not that difficult to decide, easily the show stands above these three films altogether. Although some important parts of the story were left out specifically The Skullknight, Wyald, Puck etc. Character development, a memorable and wonderful score and just the pacing seemed to work so well than cramming what we already saw into a trilogy of hour long films which distant and alienate your targeted fanbase.

Its just a disappointment beyond what you could expect when something so large on a grand scope like Berserk is chopped up, polished and made significantly weaker by a committee who only want to just make money rather than tell a story that has weight and impact.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 21, 2013, 08:00:04 PM
I dread watching this as I've caught up with the first two and they are complete garbage. Even for those who aren't die hard Berserk fans, these movies are just horribly put together. The characters are flat, the emotions are flat, the animation looks like it could have easily been done when the original 25 episode series came out. Others have perfectly ripped these films to shreds already so I won't draw this out. They should pull the plug on this whole series. If the people creating these movies don't understand storytelling they have no business adapting someone's labor of love and butchering it. The actual storytelling itself makes the original anime series storytelling seem amazing in comparison, regardless of what that one left out.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 08:39:50 PM
Sorry but I haven't read any rave reviews from acclaimed movie critics, nor have I heard of the many prestigious awards these movies have received. In fact, without their overwhelming commercial success, I'd be tempted to say they're a bust.
I never claimed that did I? I said nobody is comparing them to utter shit like a lot of people here do.

They may not receive rave reviews, but they are still ranked more favorably damn near everywhere else on the net. MAL has it ranked around 8/10, they both have 4-5 stars on Amazon, ANN generally gives them good reviews.

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And in any case, it wouldn't matter if you could find a million people and have them say these movies are good. They're not. There's a limit to the subjectivity of taste, and these movies are way beyond it. They're terrible, period.
So a million people could say they're good, but they're really still bad because you say so?

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I am doing just that.
Well that's a little uncalled for don't you think? I could just as easily call you a snob. And why should I respect your opinion on that? I've been following the series long enough that I have the first volume of the 90s anime on VHS. I still remember when it was a bitch to find manga chapters online. I'm not going to accept any random person on the internet talking down to me, because they think they're a better fan because I liked these movies.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 21, 2013, 08:53:19 PM

So a million people could say they're good, but they're really still bad because you say so?


Yes, actually. Writing quality can be objectively judged.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 08:55:31 PM
Yes, actually. Writing quality can be objectively judged.
Quality itself is subjective though, one person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 21, 2013, 09:00:33 PM
Quality itself is subjective though, one person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard.

Nothing is really subjective, only people lacking the intelligence or methods to objectively judge one thing.

One person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard, but when he gives arguments and it makes sense it isn't wrongful of him to rage at others claiming the opposite (especially when it's really stupid for them to do, not saying it to you, but many supporters of this trilogy are extremely annoying, check youtube comments in the most viewed Aria video for example).
Also even a billion people's shared opinion can't be stated as a truth just because they are many people believing it, if such a thing is used as an argument that would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 09:07:08 PM
Nothing is really subjective, only people lacking the intelligence or methods to objectively judge one thing.

One person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard, but when he gives arguments and it makes sense it isn't wrongful of him to rage at others claiming the opposite (especially when it's really stupid for them to do, not saying it to you, but many supporters of this trilogy are extremely annoying, check youtube comments in the most viewed Aria video for example).
Also even a billion people's shared opinion can't be stated as a truth just because they are many people believing it, if such a thing is used as an argument that would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

That's true that majority rule doesn't make something good. After all, Twilight became a best seller. But different people judge quality on different things. Take this movie series for example.

Now this is from a neutral perspective, of somebody who has never read the manga or seen the 90s anime. If a person likes character driven plots, and personal relationships and deep romances, they wouldn't think much of this series at all. But if another person likes action and fight scenes and pretty animation, then they'll enjoy it a lot. One of these people is no more right or wrong than the other. That's where subjective quality comes in.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on June 21, 2013, 09:10:35 PM
It's still very objective in my opinion to judge it as an adaptation, which this trilogy is obviously terrible at.
It doesn't matter if they showed the favorite scenes of someone who loves action more than the other aspects, because it's quite possible that one who likes action more than story and character development has a far inferior taste to the others who are the opposite of that (also what the series's spirit is more about), even if this might not be able to be objectively proved to others so far, there is an absolute truth to every particular thing.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 09:16:47 PM
It's still very objective in my opinion to judge it as an adaptation, which this trilogy is obviously terrible at.
It doesn't matter if they showed the favorite scenes of someone who loves action more than the other aspects, because it's quite possible that one who likes action more than story and character development has a far inferior taste to the others who are the opposite of that (also what the series's spirit is more about), even if this might not be able to be objectively proved to others so far, there is an absolute truth to every particular thing.
Judging it in comparison with the manga is unfair though, otherwise almost every anime ever made would be inferior to their source material.

Look, I don't think this series was a masterpiece, but I enjoyed them. I judge the series in comparison with other anime, not with the manga. I'm not trying to say my opinion is more or less valid than yours or anybody else's. But what I'm not going to stand for is my intelligence or my credibility as a Berserk fan brought into question for saying that I liked the movies.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 21, 2013, 09:19:44 PM
Quality itself is subjective though, one person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard.

It can get close if those discussing can agree on some ground rules and definitions. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 09:21:45 PM
It can get close if those discussing can agree on some ground rules and definitions.
The original comment here was in response to one person saying their opinion is more valid than a million hypothetical people agreeing on something.

Although I will reiterate, majority rule doesn't make something good. Look how much more popular Naruto is than Berserk. Plus, as I said, Twilight became a best seller.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 21, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
They may not receive rave reviews, but they are still ranked more favorably damn near everywhere else on the net. MAL has it ranked around 8/10, they both have 4-5 stars on Amazon, ANN generally gives them good reviews.

I don't know whether I'm supposed to laugh or cry. Everybody here knows what the fact of the matter is when it comes to those movies. Some are just lying to themselves about it.

Well that's a little uncalled for don't you think? I could just as easily call you a snob. And why should I respect your opinion on that? I've been following the series long enough that I have the first volume of the 90s anime on VHS. I still remember when it was a bitch to find manga chapters online. I'm not going to accept any random person on the internet talking down to me, because they think they're a better fan because I liked these movies.

I don't think you understand. I don't care whether you respect my opinion or not. Your respect is worth nothing to me. And I also don't care that you had trouble finding episodes online at some point; back when you did, we were buying Young Animal here. Anyway, I said what I thought and your lack of argumentation isn't going to change my mind. You've chosen to feel yourself targeted by my comment, that in itself is telling enough to me.

Anyone's free to enjoy the shittiest things if they so desire, but that doesn't make said things any less shitty.

The original comment here was in response to one person saying their opinion is more valid than a million hypothetical people agreeing on something.

Although I will reiterate, majority rule doesn't make something good. Look how much more popular Naruto is than Berserk. Plus, as I said, Twilight became a best seller.

So you did get the point afterall. A million person could say so, it still wouldn't make it true. But that's moot anyway, as it's not the case and never will be.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 21, 2013, 10:52:17 PM
I don't know whether I'm supposed to laugh or cry. Everybody here knows what the fact of the matter is when it comes to those movies. Some are just lying to themselves about it.

You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere. The fact that there is an opinion myopia around here regarding them is a moot point. And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed. And I've already spoken to like three people who said they were basically brow beaten into keeping their mouths shut about liking the movies.

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I don't care whether you respect my opinion or not. Your respect is worth nothing to me.
Right back at you. I don't care whether you think I'm a good Berserk fan or not. But when you try to make a claim of fact, saying "you are a bad Berserk an" rather than "I think you're a bad Berserk fan" you place yourself in a position of authority, claiming your opinion is worthy of respect since you set yourself up in a position to judge a truth about others.

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And I also don't care that you had trouble finding episodes online at some point; back when you did, we were buying Young Animal here.
Not sure what you're trying to imply with this?

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So you did get the point afterall. A million person could say so, it still wouldn't make it true.
Neither does you saying it's true.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 22, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
I dont get why theres even a discussion at all here. I mean the fact stands as clear as it has ever since we saw the first part of this project: THEY'VE ALTERED THE SOURCE MATERIAL. PERIOD. Its really just as simple as that. And in case one wants to get picky, the amount of material they've "just" cut would pretty much count as an alteration imo.

This is Berserk, I assume  we're all here because we LOVE the manga - "this beautiful masterpiece"  if it really needs to be spelled out. Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec...

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

(But what's most pathetic is that the trilogy isn't even good on its own merit. Things are so badly misinterpreted that it ultimately conveys a completely different message. You could kinda compare it to the creation of a construction building - make one tiny little miscalculation in the measurement process at the foundation stage and the final product goes WRONG, its kinda the same with the fragile story of Berserk, mishandle it even just a tad, and you end up with something else)

EDIT:
Now - not that it really matters [read above] but - I'll mention a few notes, since it is a review thread after all.

*Guts face expression when seeing/trying to grasp the fact that Cascas mind has regressed was very well done and really heartbreaking. The sprint worked I guess, though that 20 feet fall was a bit too exaggerating for my taste, he should still be at least a little sour from the eclipse. Liked the last noises he made there - finally something done almost perfect. Overall though - and needless to say - the manga-way clearly would've been the right way to go, one of my favorite episodes actually. And the sad thing is that Miuras work is so detailed that the manga itself would've been a superb storyboard here, just like pretty much the rest of the manga as well.

*SK totally steals the show (in this catastrophy, I might add) and especially the eclipse entrance, but that might as well have been out of relief that the awkward rape scene had ended. He wasn't that much of a presence in the last scene though.

*The creativity liberty with the arm cutting was actually a nice touch, still prefer the manga way of course...

*Ubics entrance was hilarious, the right kind of hilarious for once.

*Griffiths suicide attempt scene nicely done. Would've worked in the ideal Berserk adaptation, I guess.

As much as I would like to mention all the bad and the REALLY bad stuff its frankly just too much and I know most of its been said already more or less so I'll spare you.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Sammoniac on June 22, 2013, 02:40:22 AM
I forgot to mention Guts almost stabbing Femto. I wasn't sure if they were trying to show Guts almost overpowering him, or Femto just screwing around with him. based on the laughs from the apostles afterwards I got the feeling it was the latter.

I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 22, 2013, 03:22:58 AM
And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.
How could that be the standard for those of us who are intimately knowledgeable of the series? We can only honestly judge it based on the experiences we have. To purport to do otherwise strikes me as being disingenuous, if not deluded. As someone purportedly familiar with the series, exactly what kind of mental gymnastics did you undertake in order to review this movie "as a work in and of itself"?

Now, even if your conclusion was a little baffling to me, at least you've explained your feelings in a review format, unlike the 5 other four-star voters in this thread.

Not sure what you're trying to imply with this?
Hunting down episodes online is hardly a  badge of honor for a fan... Surely you're aware of the inherent flaw in that statement.

Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec...
Playing devil's advocate here... While I understand your sentiment, I think there's a case to be made by people who are somehow able to rationalize the changes and swallow the whole thing, I just haven't read a convincing review yet.

I would normally be the last person to argue in favor of adaptations of any sort, but there are cases where adaptations have been a success. Dozens of movies have translated written material to the screen successfully (as have hundreds of failures), however these successes are generally the ones that treat the source material with the utmost respect, which clearly wasn't the case here. I believe that has always been the germ of the problem with this adaptation. Too often, I got the impression Studio 4C thought they could handle certain things better than Miura, hence many of the over-exaggerated scenes.

We've been arguing over this point since the project was first shown off. Some can look at these movies and still see the spirit of Berserk somewhere inside. Others look at it and see a failed attempt to cash in on a long-running series. At worst, it's insulting. At best, it's a novelty: "Oh boy, more Berserk!" But unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone has called these movies a triumph of any kind.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 22, 2013, 03:25:46 AM
I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....

They were basically given a playbook to follow for a successful trilogy. All the characters, their mannerisms, their emotions, everything you could ever want to know about them is in print in pictures, not just words like a standard novel where you have to interpret the story based on the details and your imagination. They purposely stripped the story down to some of the basic ideas and scenes but took away anything that made them have a deeper meaning. It was like a cliff's notes version of Berserk. Everything the creators did with the movies to try to enhance something was an utter failure. They should have gone by the manga as much as possible and only cut out parts (or shortened them) that would be forgivable based on the time limitations. On the other hand they just should have tacked on 30 minutes to each film and given themselves even more time to fill in the story, but then again they probably would have wasted that as well.

I can't imagine Miura was pleased by these pathetic attempts to capture the world he has taken so many years to create. I don't think any writer/mangaka or what have you that had their work butchered in such a way would be anything but livid. Especially given it's the world of manga and not a traditional novel that was adapted into a movie with a budget of a couple hundred million that would at least offer the consolation of a big paycheck. Miura still has to go back and work his ass off with the thought in the back of his mind that they are going to keep making shitty adaptations for as long as they can make money off of it.

You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere. The fact that there is an opinion myopia around here regarding them is a moot point. And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.

Even as a work in and of itself it is pretty bad. The pacing is horrible and you get these small segments where they are trying to pack in as much emotional content as possible, usually two characters talking alone (with the music trying its hardest to "deepen" the scene), and then it goes back to bad pacing and horrible animation. And that's another thing. The animation in this film was terrible. The only time you got any decent conveying of emotions was during close ups of the characters, as if they couldn't render anything but bland faces the rest of the time. The 3D added nothing, it actually made the images look dull and took you out of the scene. They should have stuck with 2D for the entire series. If you compare the anime series and this film there really isn't a huge leap in quality, even though they were made 13-14 years apart.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 03:58:36 AM
Hunting down episodes online is hardly a  badge of honor for a fan... Surely you're aware of the inherent flaw in that statement.
That's not what I said though. I said that i still remembered when it was impossible to find manga chapters online cause nobody was really scanning it back then. You changed the word to episodes and bolded it, which was what I didn't understand. I even said in the same post that I had the series on VHS/DVD so idk why you assumed I was looking for episodes online.

Quote
How could that be the standard for those of us who are intimately knowledgeable of the series? We can only honestly judge it based on the experiences we have. To purport to do otherwise strikes me as being disingenuous, if not deluded. As someone purportedly familiar with the series, exactly what kind of mental gymnastics did you undertake in order to review this movie "as a work in and of itself"?
Really I don't know. Now that I think of it, I understand what you're saying. I keep trying to explain to everybody I know why the Walking Dead TV show is complete shit since I've already read the comics. But something about this series just didn't offend me as much.

I love Berserk, I really do. It's easily my favorite series, as well as the one that's consistently been with me the longest. Of course I think it's a masterpiece just as it is, but to me, the films, while inferior, don't diminish the name of the series as much. Maybe it's actually because I'm so familiar with the manga already. I didn't mind not seeing the backstory with Guts and Casca falling in love, because I've already read it and I know it's there, so I just enjoy the beautiful animation.

When I judge the series I try and do so, not as an adaptation of Berserk, but just as an anime in and of itself. 1 star is something I would give to a complete shit anime like the typical shounen refuse that gets pumped out every day. If nothing else we have three great action movies. Maybe I'm just more forgiving and love it just because I'll love anything Berserk related, idk.

I do feel though, personal bias aside, that people are harder on these movies than they deserve. I've heard people say that the cheesy 3D are grounds for saying the animation of the entire project is bad, and nit pick little things like the foresters seeing the female apostle instead of the snake baron.. Then these same people who complain about the CGI completely ignore the awkward lip flaps and stills in the 90s anime.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: ApostleBob on June 22, 2013, 05:20:09 AM
I don't get why theres even a discussion at all here. I mean the fact stands as clear as it has ever since we saw the first part of this project: THEY'VE ALTERED THE SOURCE MATERIAL. PERIOD.

[....]

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

Not trying to attack you here Hama, but there are some pretty serious flaws in your argument or at least in your standards for adaptations in general.  By your logic as I understand it, as soon as you deviate in any way from the source material in an adaptation, you have utterly corrupted it.  By this standard, every film or TV adaptation of a work from another media (comic, novel, biography, etc) is a complete failure.  If that's your stance, then why on earth would you ever watch an adaptation of anything?  :azan:

By the very nature of different mediums, adaptation will require some changes, be it from length limitations or from aspects that just don't translate well from page to the moving image.  For example, a characters inner thoughts are very hard to accurately translate without resorting to long winded voice over, which can get boring on screen and is often better portrayed by simple good acting.  Same goes for intricate backstories and world building that can kill the momentum of a plot if done in a way that doesn't naturally add to the story.  This is something that Game of Thrones does well, by giving little bits of history when it's needed.

All this being said, this is not a very good adaptation.  The pace is way off, even if judged on it's own as a movie.  Each film climaxes two thirds in and then goes on and on only to end on fairly transitional scenes.  For example, the ghost scene is a terrible ending.  It should have ended either near the cave or better yet with the pig apostle.  Also the characters backstory are clunky or too vague.  Guts' childhood is confusing in the film, Casca's isn't much better, and the stuff between Gennon and Griffith is delivered in a long winded scene after it would've had any impact.     

I would normally be the last person to argue in favor of adaptations of any sort, but there are cases where adaptations have been a success. Dozens of movies have translated written material to the screen successfully (as have hundreds of failures), however these successes are generally the ones that treat the source material with the utmost respect, which clearly wasn't the case here.

I think these films could have been good, even with cuts and changes as long as they preserved the spirit of the plot and accurate characterizations. There was no way they were going to get a 1:1 of the manga without doing another series (which might have been a better idea) but they could have created something that made us care about these characters and presented a compelling plot to springboard the rest of the series. As KazigluBey said, this was the cliffs notes version. A soulless representation of berserk that only managed to get the basic events in order (most of the time). I REALLY wish these films were good, I don't like to be disappointed with them, but they put way more emphasis on titillation and violence porn than they did on characterization. They're like the a bad Michael Bay film.

They purposely stripped the story down to some of the basic ideas and scenes but took away anything that made them have a deeper meaning. It was like a cliff's notes version of Berserk. Everything the creators did with the movies to try to enhance something was an utter failure. They should have gone by the manga as much as possible and only cut out parts (or shortened them) that would be forgivable based on the time limitations. On the other hand they just should have tacked on 30 minutes to each film and given themselves even more time to fill in the story.

I completely agree with this.

I still remember when it was a bitch to find manga chapters on-line.

The problem everyone has about this is the fact that you weren't supporting the series you purport to love.  Relying solely on on-line scans does not help the series become a success and a very recent thread discusses how this is actually tanking the Dark Horse Volumes.  They aren't making the back issues anymore because too few people are buying. Yet the recent torrents of the series have MILLIONS of downloads.

Also the individual issues are called episodes, not chapters.  Chapters are something else entirely in the series and it just gets confusing.  :slan:

You can roll your eyes, that won't ward off my utter contempt.

[...]

Well you should be ashamed of yourself.

C'mon Aaz. That tones not helping foster any sense of community. I don't think Heisenberg's wrong to take some of your comments as ad hominem attacks and it's stopping debate in it's tracks. If the guy liked it I don't think a crucifixion is in order. I think multiple viewpoints is good, and enjoyment is fairly subjective. Personally I'm looking forward to your own review.  :serpico:

I do agree with you that the films do give off a bad perception of what Berserk is to the uninitiated, so in that way it may diminish the series overall reputation. But I don't think the films are the absolute worst shit I've ever seen, that's just hyperbole.  They're an overall disappointment, but they had some decent parts throughout. Some sequences I even enjoyed. But they had every opportunity to get it right and came far short.   

Alright those are my two cents for now.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 05:43:30 AM

The problem everyone has about this is the fact that you weren't supporting the series you purport to love.  Relying solely on on-line scans does not help the series become a success and a very recent thread discusses how this is actually tanking the Dark Horse Volumes.  They aren't making the back issues anymore because too few people are buying. Yet the recent torrents of the series have MILLIONS of downloads.

I was 15 years old when I first got into Berserk, maybe 14. I didn't have access to a credit card and had no way of actually purchasing the manga. Plus this was before piracy became a really big thing

Now 13 years later I own every Dark Horse manga volume, the Box of War set of the original anime series as well as the remastered version they released in 2009 and I still have the VHS tape of the first six episodes. I have the Blu Rays for all three movies as well. I also have little plastic statues of Guts, Griffith, Casca, Zodd, and the Skull Knight, plush dolls of Guts and Griffith, two posters, and a keychain. I still read the manga when it's first posted online, but then I go out and buy the volumes when they're released.

I do my part in supporting Berserk.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: ApostleBob on June 22, 2013, 05:51:05 AM
I was 15 years old when I first got into Berserk, maybe 14. I didn't have access to a credit card and had no way of actually purchasing the manga.

Now 13 years later I own every Dark Horse manga volume, the Box of War set of the original anime series as well as the remastered version they released in 2009 and I still have the VHS tape of the first six episodes. I have the Blu Rays for all three movies as well. I also have little plastic statues of Guts, Griffith, Casca, Zodd, and the Skull Knight, plush dolls of Guts and Griffith, two posters, and a keychain. I still read the manga when it's first posted online, but then I go out and buy the volumes when they're released.

I do my part in supporting Berserk.

Good for you.  You're a rare breed to transition from scanlations to the volumes.  I was just trying to inform you as to why championing your previous online scan efforts would seem hypocritical.  If you buy the volumes, I doubt anyone takes issue.   
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 05:57:14 AM
Good for you.  You're a rare breed to transition from scanlations to the volumes.  I was just trying to inform you as to why championing your previous online scan efforts would seem hypocritical.  If you buy the volumes, I doubt anyone takes issue.
No, I gotcha. I didn't mean for it to come off like that, I was just trying to say that I'd been with the series for a long time. I always try to support the anime that I watch buy buying the official releases.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 22, 2013, 06:37:10 AM
You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere.

No, that's not what I said.

And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.

Ah, so you get to decide how things should be viewed now? Regardless, these movies are pretty bad even when not compared to the manga. They hardly stand on their own.

And I've already spoken to like three people who said they were basically brow beaten into keeping their mouths shut about liking the movies.

Oh, Heisenberg, champion of the oppressed! If the poor people can't stand to have their views challenged on a discussion forum, there's not much one can do for them.

Right back at you. I don't care whether you think I'm a good Berserk fan or not. But when you try to make a claim of fact, saying "you are a bad Berserk an" rather than "I think you're a bad Berserk fan" you place yourself in a position of authority, claiming your opinion is worthy of respect since you set yourself up in a position to judge a truth about others.

Unfortunately for you I actually am in a position of authority, and not just because I'm an administrator of this forum.

This is Berserk, I assume  we're all here because we LOVE the manga - "this beautiful masterpiece"  if it really needs to be spelled out. Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec.

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

You're definitely right, but that last sentence just isn't true. It's actually been the default, specious line of those who would defend this adaptation, as they would have defended anything really. But there could have been a lot of alterations made while still doing justice to the original material. No one was ever expecting a 1:1 adaptation with black and white still slides showing on screen. However there's a middle ground between that and what we got.

I love Berserk, I really do. It's easily my favorite series, as well as the one that's consistently been with me the longest. Of course I think it's a masterpiece just as it is, but to me, the films, while inferior, don't diminish the name of the series as much. Maybe it's actually because I'm so familiar with the manga already. I didn't mind not seeing the backstory with Guts and Casca falling in love, because I've already read it and I know it's there, so I just enjoy the beautiful animation.

Now we get to the truth of the matter. It being that you're the one actually not being able to consider these movies as they would be to someone not familar with the manga. Look at what you're saying here: you don't care about the omissions because you already know how everything "is" in the manga. So you can enjoy the moving pictures for what they are, like you'd enjoy a fan drawing. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should realize that it's not a proper criterion for judging the quality of something, nor is it how you just described those movies "should" be viewed.

What I've actually been doing when viewing those movies myself is first consider them as an adaptation of the manga and compare it against the source material, and second to consider them as a standalone product, the goal of which would be to introduce people to the manga by showcasing the kind of quality what can expect from it. I've found them severely lacking in both instances.

When I judge the series I try and do so, not as an adaptation of Berserk, but just as an anime in and of itself. 1 star is something I would give to a complete shit anime like the typical shounen refuse that gets pumped out every day. If nothing else we have three great action movies. Maybe I'm just more forgiving and love it just because I'll love anything Berserk related, idk.

Honestly I think you're very partial here, even in the wording your use. "Shounen refuse" vs "anything Berserk related". It's pretty clear to me that your love for the series makes you overly forgiving.

I do feel though, personal bias aside, that people are harder on these movies than they deserve. I've heard people say that the cheesy 3D are grounds for saying the animation of the entire project is bad, and nit pick little things like the foresters seeing the female apostle instead of the snake baron.. Then these same people who complain about the CGI completely ignore the awkward lip flaps and stills in the 90s anime.

Eh, well the old TV series was far, faaaaar from being perfect. But, and that's also due to its format (but again, it's Studio 4°C's fault for insanely trying to adapt the Golden Age arc into what was originally a single movie), it was still a lot more faithful, and so, almost mechanically (as the original material is so good that staying close to it ensures your adaptation a certain level of quality), necessarily better.

C'mon Aaz. That tones not helping foster any sense of community. I don't think Heisenberg's wrong to take some of your comments as ad hominem attacks and it's stopping debate in it's tracks. If the guy liked it I don't think a crucifixion is in order. I think multiple viewpoints is good, and enjoyment is fairly subjective.

But fostering a sense of community isn't my goal here. I do not believe there exists such a sense in the people most concerned with my remark anyway. That aside, my comment wasn't meant for Heisenberg, but I'm not sorry that it prompted him to justify his fandom either. And this is hardly a crucifixion: I just spoke my mind, no one had to answer. Lastly, you'll notice I did state the obvious fact that people can enjoy whatever they want, I'm just dissociating it from labeling things "good". And I don't think debate has stopped at all, on the contrary.

But I don't think the films are the absolute worst shit I've ever seen, that's just hyperbole.

No one's said that though. You know, I always carefully consider what I say. More carefully than most people realize I guess.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 07:20:03 AM
No, that's not what I said.
That was the implication that I got. Your claim was that you hadn't seen any animated movie critics or periodicals praising the movies, which infers that they don't have any positive reviews.

Quote
Unfortunately for you I actually am in a position of authority, and not just because I'm an administrator of this forum.
Obviously on this site. But what I meant was that by making a judgment about somebody else in the form of an absolute statement, you are claiming a position of authority over what does and does not constitute good taste. This is fine, but then when I asked you why I should take your opinion on quality over my own, you refused to back it up, saying you didn't care what I thought about your opinion.

Quote
Honestly I think you're very partial here, even in the wording your use. "Shounen refuse" vs "anything Berserk related". It's pretty clear to me that your love for the series makes you overly forgiving.
I'll freely admit that's a possibility, but I also think it's possible your love of the series is making you overly critical.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 22, 2013, 07:46:01 AM
That was the implication that I got. Your claim was that you hadn't seen any animated movie critics or periodicals praising the movies, which infers that they don't have any positive reviews.

No, what I said is: "I haven't read any rave reviews from acclaimed movie critics". What that means is a more than positive, glowing review from someone appropriately qualified beyond the vague subgenre of "anime".

Obviously on this site. But what I meant was that by making a judgment about somebody else in the form of an absolute statement, you are claiming a position of authority over what does and does not constitute good taste. This is fine, but then when I asked you why I should take your opinion on quality over my own, you refused to back it up, saying you didn't care what I thought about your opinion.

Oh, I'm just claiming a position of authority over what constitutes or not a good adaptation of Berserk, based on my extensive knowledge of anything and everything Berserk related, to which everyone can attest. Why should you take my opinion of quality over your own? That is a false question. It should rather be: why should you seriously reconsider your thought process in deciding that these movies are good in spite of their flaws? To which I would answer that I cordially invite you to go carefully read all of my numerous posts on the topic, to see if they can convince you of my point.

I'll freely admit that's a possibility, but I also think it's possible your love of the series is making you overly critical.

But the difference between us is that I have lengthily demonstrated why those movies are bad, even when one does not factor in their love for the series. Furthermore, you have yourself stated that you didn't mind the omissions because you were already so familiar with the omitted material, which is admittedly a breach of the proper process of watching these movies as you initially described it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 07:53:27 AM
Furthermore, you have yourself stated that you didn't mind the omissions because you were already so familiar with the omitted material, which is admittedly a breach of the proper process of watching these movies as you initially described it.
That was me on a personal level. If you omit all knowledge of the series then a lot of the biggest flaws in the films go away.

I don't want to argue about it anymore though. I don't think we're going to come to any common ground on this.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 22, 2013, 08:06:53 AM
That was me on a personal level.

But that doesn't change anything. You're making exceptions to your own "rules" as you go to justify your position.

If you omit all knowledge of the series then a lot of the biggest flaws in the films go away.

First off, I definitely disagree with that statement, and second, I think there would still be a serious problem with this adaptation if attempting to mentally block all knowledge of the series was a requirement in order to enjoy it. Third, if people who actually discovered Berserk by watching these movies want to give their opinions on them, they're welcome to. It's not my case though, so I'm not going to hypothetically speak for those people. And neither should you, as one could easily question on what authority you would be doing so.

I don't want to argue about it anymore though. I don't think we're going to come to any common ground on this.

That's fine by me. I've told you what I thought. If you want to talk about it again in the future, feel free to send me a PM, I'm always open to discussion.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IcePuck on June 22, 2013, 09:49:56 AM
Several people seem to think this is the best one of the three movies. I found this one the worst. Almost everything felt awkward and off. Conveying emotions really isn't Studio 4C's strong suit, and they left out half the cool action sequences with which they might actually have been able to do a good job. Casca sex? Didn't work. Corkus breaking down? Didn't work. (Plus Guts' raiders pissed me off by mewling) Casca rape?

I literally burst out laughing, I wish I had seen this in the movie theaters... Is that a common reaction, or did most people actually take this seriously? That has to be the most utterly inappropriate choice of music I've ever heard... The most memorable scene in the entire trilogy, but not quite for the right reason. =)

There's also a lot of abrupt fade downs that seem like break spots for commercials. Apostles are the god hand's cheer squad. An agent from the Matrix takes over the beherit. Silat is a run-of-the-mill sadistic villain with a pervert voice. Guts can stand up to the godhand. Lots of other small problems.

The only part that I truly enjoyed was the ending, post eclipse. The sense of despair and the mood was great, it made me a lot more impatient for the next episode of the manga, somehow.

And that's that. I do hope more Berserk animation gets done, but kind of a shame if it has to be Studio 4C. I don't think they have much potential for greatness. At best, stuff they do will be passable.

**
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 22, 2013, 10:47:35 AM
Femto kind of made me laugh when I remembered that this is the same studio that did the Batman anime  :iva:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: puppet12ca on June 22, 2013, 11:53:29 AM
I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....

well I thought about that scene and I figured that its purpose was to display one element present in the black swordsman arc namely establishing how far apart Guts and Femto were in terms of sheer power. Including it at this point in the story is a bit off balance I suppose but if they are moving on to the lost children chapter next I can kinda understand why it was included
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Dar Klink on June 22, 2013, 07:48:54 PM
And that's that. I do hope more Berserk animation gets done, but kind of a shame if it has to be Studio 4C. I don't think they have much potential for greatness. At best, stuff they do will be passable.

**
This makes me sad, as Studio4C has done some great stuff in the past that I loved. I'm so disappointed that they threw together a team that had no idea what they were doing with Berserk. They wouldn't have been my first choice as a studio, but they definitely wouldn't have been my last.

If you don't believe me, check out Mind Game, Tekkon Kinkreet, and especially Memories, which has a segment directed by Satoshi Kon. Berserk really doesn't fit into their niche of "experimental/artsy" films at all and they treated it like an experiment in creating cheap 3D CGI with little thought put into anything else(and that experiment failed).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on June 22, 2013, 08:09:35 PM
I gave it two stars only because somehow I managed to make it through it without turning it off or yelling at my TV at any point.

It's an incredibly horrible adaptation. It's more than obvious the direction has no clue what Berserk is, on any level. Even just as a movie it's pretty bad. I have a recurring thought that they are just testing mixing CG animation with 2D animation and decided Berserk was a good medium to test it on.

I still stand by my ultimate distaste of how Casca and Guts sex scene was shown, built up to, and transitioned out of (immediately inside Wyndham) but it's at the top of a very long list I don't really want to even make. Even Guts' face gets on my nerves a lot.

I wonder if at this rate they'll skip to Guts wandering through the woods and fighting the quasi-apostles protecting The Misty Valley, with no introduction to Jill, her father, or the village altogether. Seriously.   :judo:

But hey, Skull Knight was cool...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 22, 2013, 09:40:59 PM
Not trying to attack you here Hama, but there are some pretty serious flaws in your argument or at least in your standards for adaptations in general.  By your logic as I understand it, as soon as you deviate in any way from the source material in an adaptation, you have utterly corrupted it.  By this standard, every film or TV adaptation of a work from another media (comic, novel, biography, etc) is a complete failure.  If that's your stance, then why on earth would you ever watch an adaptation of anything?  :azan:

But I never said "thats my standards for adaptations in general." Of course now I can totally see why you would think so but my point is that a story as deep and dramatically complicated as Berserk (didnt wanna use that sentence since theres no work quite like Berserk - that I know of) REALLY IS THAT DELICATE, that even the slightest change can F it up completely. Someone mentioned TWD, which I think is another splendid example here, but I´d say thats even worse than this actually, obviously not in terms of what the source material suffers, just the adaptation itself.


But there could have been a lot of alterations made while still doing justice to the original material. No one was ever expecting a 1:1 adaptation with black and white still slides showing on screen. However there's a middle ground between that and what we got.

Of course, I get that. I was kinda trying a bit too hard and deliberately exaggerated to make my point... sloppy I know, not really that good at explaining stuff, Im sure ya'll noticed :farnese:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Death May Die on June 22, 2013, 09:47:35 PM
I gave it two stars only because somehow I managed to make it through it without turning it off or yelling at my TV at any point.

 :ubik: That made my day.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 22, 2013, 11:25:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUN25-zOrPU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbUN25-zOrPU  :magni:

EDIT: This one´s even better :troll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1G9lkECe1s
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 22, 2013, 11:32:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUN25-zOrPU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbUN25-zOrPU  :magni:
I think this is what Heisenberg meant when he said there were positive reviews out there  :troll:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lenlo on June 23, 2013, 12:51:47 AM
I finally got to watch it so here's what I think of it.

 First off I want to give it a 1.5 stars, but since I cant I'm going to round down to not give it to much credit. Twas better than the first 2, but that's not saying much. There are a lot of things that were just horrible with the movie. I felt that in a lot of the scenes the music was badly chosen ((The music itself was alright, just rarely fit what was going on on screen)), characters were misrepresented or didn't get their final moments ((Judeau, Gaston, Silat just to name a few)) and that there were some things that they could have fit in to make it flat out better but didn't.

The ending was also a poor choice. Why the fields? Couldn't have added another 20-30 minutes for Godot, the Pig apostle, Demon baby or the Dragon Slayer? I feel those extra 30 minutes would have been worth it. Try and end on a high note you know? Anyways here's just a complete list of the things I had a problem with or felt were alright. I'm sure I missed some things but I was to busy cringing.

I don't really think they should be lauded for including things that should have been in the movie no matter what, but seeing as they still missed some important ones I'm going to give them these.
-SK looked great. Coulda done a bit more with him, but he looked great.
-I'm glad they got Corkus little line about always wanting to lead a charge like that. I half expected them to miss it.
-SK's swipe at Void. Similar with Corkus, I kinda expected them to just forget it.

Here's a few things that angered me, but I can live with
-Void's entrance wasn't what I hoped it to be.
-Odd choice of Beherit transformation
-Why a blue Eclipse?
-Skipping straight to being in the castle...
-Griffith's whole cell scene in the beginning.
-Guts entrance and fight with Silat.
-Griffiths smile's to Guts just looked evil in the movie.

And now for the list of the biiiig problems I had.
-Silat. He looked like a villainous bad guy, with nothing else going for him. I like the character and they ruined his entrance into the series if they make more of these ((Please don't))
-Both the rape with Femto and the Guts/Casca scene left me really disappointed.
-Both Judeau and Gaston's last moments. Neither were what I was hoping for ((And I love Gaston. I dunno why, but hes a loveable dude.))
-Why not just come at and tell them Gaiseric is SK? That's pretty much what you did.
-The escape from the castle scene. It was to loud and I am disappointed they didn't manage to include the Bakiraka.
-No Wyald.
-Ubik came across was more malevolent than he should have in the mountain of corpses scene in my opinion.

And the big kicker for this list is... Guts almost overpowering/getting to Femto! Ding ding ding! We have a winner for most "What the hell did they add here" moment! Seriously... To me this just took away the whole feeling of hopelessness that scene first gave me when reading the series. By adding it into the movie it kinda ruined the Eclipse for me.


That's pretty much everything. There are some other small things I'm sad about, like the Noble outside the Tower who didn't get to give his "No man can kill 100 men" speech thing to his soldiers and then getting butchered, the fact that the king looked way to healthy in the movie ((Seriously, in the actual chapter the king did not look near that healthy.)) or that Guts was apparently a little go getter and got a particular scar afew volumes early.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Handmade on June 23, 2013, 01:44:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUN25-zOrPU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbUN25-zOrPU  :magni:

Quote
"The movie was fucking phenomenal! ive read the manga but god damn that hd quality and the music was incredible. easily one of the greatest series of all time."

 :isidro: :sad: :judo:


Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 23, 2013, 03:23:15 AM
Something I noticed on my rewatch that I don't think anybody's mentioned yet. During the attack on the Eclipse, the Skull Knight's horse was making the clip clop noise, even when it was flying through the air...  :???:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Viral Harvest on June 23, 2013, 03:37:01 AM
I'm not going to write a detailed review, because a lot of how I feel about the movie has already been posted and reposted here many times. Some neat parts, but overall (having watched 3 attempts at this so far) I think Berserk functions best in the graphic novel medium, seeing as the team of knuckleheads who put this shit together are incapable of delivering the same quality and vision that Miura has, coupled with liberties taken that made me want to throw my remote through the damned television. Better than the '97 anime for sure, but as a whole it didn't evoke the same reaction in me as the manga. I'm not even trying to be an obnoxious manga purist in the least, I wanted to love this but all I really got out of this was eye candy, where at some parts was pretty ugly itself. A generous 2/5 stars. I'm already tired of this animation team.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been discussed here and I might have overlooked it, but what are the stand-out traits between the 15 and 18 version?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 23, 2013, 04:22:08 AM
I'm not going to write a detailed review, because a lot of how I feel about the movie has already been posted and reposted here many times. Some neat parts, but overall (having watched 3 attempts at this so far) I think Berserk functions best in the graphic novel medium, seeing as the team of knuckleheads who put this shit together are incapable of delivering the same quality and vision that Miura has, coupled with liberties taken that made me want to throw my remote through the damned television. Better than the '97 anime for sure, but as a whole it didn't evoke the same reaction in me as the manga. I'm not even trying to be an obnoxious manga purist in the least, I wanted to love this but all I really got out of this was eye candy, where at some parts was pretty ugly itself. A generous 2/5 stars. I'm already tired of this animation team.

Why do you think it's better than the anime? I'd say the anime was true to the story a heck of a lot more than the movies. If you mean visuals then yeah they are slightly better but nothing amazing. The 3D experiment was a failure.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lenlo on June 23, 2013, 06:34:11 AM
Why do you think it's better than the anime? I'd say the anime was true to the story a heck of a lot more than the movies. If you mean visuals then yeah they are slightly better but nothing amazing. The 3D experiment was a failure.
In general id say yeah the 3D failed, but there were some parts that I thought worked really really well in 3D ((Not all of them in this movie)). I would have to go back and rewatch the other ones to get a full list of the scenes I thought worked well, but there were def afew.

I think that they just need to practice and get better at it in house before they attempt it again on a big movie release.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Roderick on June 23, 2013, 09:47:05 AM
Finished watching Movie 3 and while it's not quite the trainwreck I expected, it's still pretty awful in many ways. I've decided to break down my thoughts down to what I thought into a predictably lopsided list of pros and cons.

Pros

- The prison descent.  Very good direction in regards to the Gaseric reveal, depicting the horrors of the prison, and following the torch to the branded corpses.  Much of this was cut in the TV anime and the movie depicted it fairly well

-Scenes at the Hawks camp.  The bulk of the character development happens here with many scenes from the manga faithfully adapted.  Some great direction, art, and animation in spots.  Thais may be the highlight of the whole movie.

-Skullknight.  While he has been watered down somewhat in this adaptation, he was still a striking presence and as a character was handled adequately

-Pre-sacrifice Eclipse.  The "introduction" to the eclipse was handled about as well as I reasonably expected.  Once  Griffith sacrifices his companions, it gets more dicey.

-SK vs Zodd.  Not perfect, but cool enough on its own to be enjoyable

- Griffith character development.  While nowhere near flawless in execution, he comes out the least tarnished in this film.  Despite some remaining holes thanks to the previous two and a few odd direction choices, his motivations and emotions were fleshed out decently enough to make his scenes in the movie work better than those of most other primary characters.

-SK Eclipse rescue.  Generally fine execution and a well done adaptation for the most part.

Cons

-Guts & Casca's character development.  Guts is the worst offender.  The lack of depicting his inner thoughts and fleshing out his many flashbacks and backstories is critical at this point.  The reasons why he left and came back, why he's a natural struggler, etc remains elusive in the film adaptations and is only left to rather open interpretation.  His relationship with Casca is also pretty undercooked--he loves Casca because...? (More on this later).  Casca's individual depth is similarly lacking.  Unsurprisingly, much of what does get fleshed out with these two is through their relationship with Griffith.

-Guts' glorious return.  Why does he return?  Who knows.  To add insult to injury he has very little interaction with the other Hawks other than Casca afterwards.  He just shows up because the plot demanded it.  The lack of any scenes of his past years wandering is a seriously flawed omission on many levels.

-Silat the Kushan thug.  Other than his looks and fighting technique, there is absolutely nothing memorable about this skinny guy whom Guts defeats in the blink of an eye.  He has no real character to speak of other than being a strawman baddie for Guts to effortlessly knock down and never be spoken of again.  What a waste.

-Guts' and Casca's night of passion.  While some moments during their fight and Casca's free fall are well done, the whole scene of those two together is so stripped down as to be anemic.  I guess we learn that Guts cares for Casca and how they both feel about Griffith, but that is really about it.  There is no depth here due to the removal of all the scenes and dialogue that made their relationship so complex.  The manga showed how fragile their emotions really are once they let their guards down and sharing their inner demons.  Aside from the beginning fight, which alludes to possible deeper emotional complexity, we get a sex scene followed by cute banter.  Bah!

-No Godo or Godo residence.  As the filmmakers would rather not bother delving into Guts' life outside of the Hawks, the depiction of Guts' actions and insights in those sequences at Godo's place is unsurprisingly gone.  As Godo did not interact with the Hawks, his entire character and connection with Rickert and Ericka is deemed disposable (more on this later).

-Snoopy Skully.  Why did SK have to meet Guts during his lovemaking?  Was there no better time?  Very silly decision on the movie's part.

-Infiltrating and Escaping the dungeon.  Okay, so the Hawks get into the dungeon through some vague secret entrance through stone tombs.  I can buy that, but how the deuce do they escape?  Guts kills a bunch of guys on the stair and the very next scene is them boarding a stagecoach.  What?  Not only do we get no explanation on why they don't use the secret passage to escape, but they don't even bother showing Guts waste the soldiers, just eliminating any possible suspense in the Hawks escaping the dungeon.

-No Bakiraka assassins or Wyald.  Had these scenes been included, this probably would have comprised the end of the third movie with the Eclipse comprising the fourth.  That is, if the film team cared about having a faithful adaptation.  But once again these two sequences remain unanimated, because further insight into the Kushans, Apostles, and te Eclipse ceremony is something utterly disposable to get the the Eclipse faster.  Whatever.

-No pre-Eclipse Rickert scenes.  Not only is any interaction between Skullknight and Rickert established in the film nor does he witness apostles beforehand, Rickert gets no character development whatsoever.  He shows up at the Eclipse after being separated from the Hawks for years...just because.  When Ericka appears for the first time, Rickert is friends with her...just because.  What was Rickert doing all those years?  The movie doesn't care.

-Berserk beaver.  The movie (the R18 edition anyway) shows copious amounts of vaginal nudity.  Which some of this was in the manga (minus the bush) there seems to be many more exposed shots of Slan's nether region which Slan mostly covered up in the manga panels.

-Teflon Guts.  Unlike the manga, Guts recieves next to no cuts or lacerations during his fight with multiple apostles.  There is hardly any blood on Guts at all until he falls into the blood pool with its contents fusing to his body, looking more like a spray-on shiny red paint.

-Griffith's "descent".  While the art design is unique and stylized, much of this is the movie's non-canon interpretation of Griffith's psychological and physical transformation into Femto.  It bears little resemblance to the manga's interpretation and assumes to give Griffith new motives in wanting to be Femto.  Much of it felt unnecessary and hollow.

-Gaston's final moments.  Because the film team either didn't want to pay anyone to voice Gaston or to go through the trouble of animating his head exploding, Guts only has Gaston's decapitated face to remember him by.  Considering Rickert got hardly any development Gaston had no chance at even getting this token scene animated.  We were lucky Guts bothered to look at his face.

-Guts' rubber arm.  Seriously, that stretched out arm looked ridiculous as he was tugging away.  To make matters worse, Guts' couldn't even bother severing his arm completely, only loosening it up and slowly yanking his muscles apart like taffy (gross!)

-Freudian Guts.  The movie repeatedly juxtaposes shots of Femto's violent rape with Guts repeatedly stabbing his arm with his broken blade.  Uh, no.

-Guts gets a shot at Femto.  This was a really stupid addition just for the sake of showing off some cheesy supernatural hokum from Femto.  Okay, lets ignore that this completely contradicts the scene in the Black Swordsman arc in which Guts would be rendered unconscious due to his brand by being that close to Griffith and that it goes so far as have Guts actually directly overpower Griffith's barrier with a broken hilt.  Even as movie-only material it also contradicts the later scene in which Femto attempts to fend off Skullknight and is surprised by the power he possesses.  When blasting Guts 50 feet into the air, he shows absolutely no surprise like he's fully aware of his power.  Just embarrassing.

-Zodd MIA.  After SK's rescue, Zodd apparently vanishes either apparently defeated by SK or just left without caring about the outcome of the Eclipse.  He shows up only during the duel to state that he's had a rivalry with SK for 1000, but doesn't bother to be around when SK leaves and returns a couple minutes later?  Zodd really gets shafted.

-The epilogue.  Mostly one hot mess after another.  Guts wakes up in a cave and because the movies didn't bother establishing that Guts knows who Ericka is or vice verse, Rickert does all the exposition here that isn't already cut.  I didn't have a problem with the Casca scenes.  Guts leaves in a panic amidst mostly impersonal memories of the Hawks, is attacked by the ghosties, and STEALS SK's SWORD and proceeds to kill them.  This only causes SK to comment that he is the personification of the struggling man, or something to that effect.  Why?  Who knows.  It would have had more of an impact if the movie left in Guts telling off SK and vent the feelings that lead to his Black Swordsman persona, but as is, it just ends with Guts taking swipes at ghosts.  Lame.

-Black Swordsman teaser.  Seems almost like mandatory fanservice.  He gets this armor and weaponry from nowhere, equips it and leaves again with no acknowledgement of Godo's existence despite it all being his stuff.  One would hope this means the Black Swordsman arc is the next movie in the line-up but I know better.

-Music.  Passable, but pretty generic for this feature.  There are a few decent tunes, but the soundtrack absolutely pales in comparison to the TV series.  Some odd choices, like the piano solo being the cue for Femto's rape of Casca, stand out as well.

-Sloppy CGI models and 3D animation.  While it's handled better in some areas, such as the God Hand or Silat sequences, there are many other times where it just looks amateurish.  Midland soldiers and much the the Hawks look terrible with the bare minimum of detail, often looking like rounded glass action figures with eyes, a nose, and face painted on.  The animation of the 3D models also tends to be either (or both) jerky and lethargic.  Carcus on more than one occasion looked like a malfuctioning robot.

-Facial expressions.  As a film that is suppose to evoke the feel the manga, this fails pretty hard.  Miura knew when and how to exaggerate the the characters when necessary, this case being extreme emotion.  Through out this whole movie the facial artwork has a toned down quality to it, most likely hampered by heavy use of 3D models and using conservative on-model character layouts to a fault.  When Guts is driven to the edge of sanity to the point of hacking his arm off the art never strays from a stock "very angry" expression.  Guts desperate cry after Femto finished raping Casca is notably weak in terms of both art and voice acting.

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 23, 2013, 01:22:09 PM
^The last points there is some of the few things I actually wanted to adress, I guess I just cant resist anymore.

Guts´ pathetic lack of going berserk, as you say, he simply looks angry, "Oh man! Now ya done it, bru! Guts gonna whop yo ass!" Why not play some cliche classic heavy metal intro while you´re at it? He comes of as more of an action hero thats gonna save the day. Neither does it feel like he has to struggle THAT much to go up against dozens of apostles at once, he should be pure animal instinct at this point, and even more so when Femto grabs Casca, BUT! What did they do........? They made him just stand there and gloat as if its his first dirty magazine experience or something? :ubik:

Its so frustrating they cant even get the things they actually included at least somewhat right. Mostly Im telling myself not to care but there are times I just feel like..... :mozgus:

I cant understand how anyone can actually prefer this....thing to the '97 anime. That was a masterpiece in comparison. I mean even the animation better, yes, I´d go for those sweet stills over that sloppy 3D any day.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on June 23, 2013, 01:45:11 PM
Soooo I got to watch part 3 yesterday and today my speakers won't work anymore... Propably because of the terrible ost. I won't even review it (well for the moment at least cause I wanted to make a second watch with notes)

Edit: oh yeah we finally know what the "evil" looks like in Evil Dead : it was Silat all along! I'm glad that movie helped things out with another movie...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 23, 2013, 01:47:36 PM

-No Godo or Godo residence.  As the filmmakers would rather not bother delving into Guts' life outside of the Hawks, the depiction of Guts' actions and insights in those sequences at Godo's place is unsurprisingly gone.  As Godo did not interact with the Hawks, his entire character and connection with Rickert and Ericka is deemed disposable (more on this later).
Erica mentions him when Guts asks where they are. She said they were in Godot's hidden cave, no further information given  :puck:.

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-No pre-Eclipse Rickert scenes.  Not only is any interaction between Skullknight and Rickert established in the film nor does he witness apostles beforehand, Rickert gets no character development whatsoever.  He shows up at the Eclipse after being separated from the Hawks for years...just because.  When Ericka appears for the first time, Rickert is friends with her...just because.  What was Rickert doing all those years?  The movie doesn't care.
Rickert is shown during the scene in which Guts returns to the camp, so he's been there all along. He just disappeared between Griffith's rescue and the Eclipse. Again, no further information given.

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-Zodd MIA.  After SK's rescue, Zodd apparently vanishes either apparently defeated by SK or just left without caring about the outcome of the Eclipse.  He shows up only during the duel to state that he's had a rivalry with SK for 1000, but doesn't bother to be around when SK leaves and returns a couple minutes later?  Zodd really gets shafted.
Another odd omission, because his ominous line to Guts would come across quite cool on the big screen, I think. Much like his cut scene from Movie 2.

What'd you rate it, Rod?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: NightCrawler on June 23, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUN25-zOrPU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbUN25-zOrPU  :magni:

EDIT: This one´s even better :troll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1G9lkECe1s

"Beserk".

I just died a little inside.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Roderick on June 23, 2013, 03:21:19 PM
Erica mentions him when Guts asks where they are. She said they were in Godot's hidden cave, no further information given  :puck:.
Rickert is shown during the scene in which Guts returns to the camp, so he's been there all along. He just disappeared between Griffith's rescue and the Eclipse. Again, no further information given.
Another odd omission, because his ominous line to Guts would come across quite cool on the big screen, I think. Much like his cut scene from Movie 2.

What'd you rate it, Rod?

Okay, I redact those first two points.  Thanks for the corrections.

I generously rated it 2/5, though it's leans more to a 1.5/5.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: puppet12ca on June 23, 2013, 03:40:51 PM
Rickert is shown during the scene in which Guts returns to the camp, so he's been there all along. He just disappeared between Griffith's rescue and the Eclipse.

Well I seem to recall Rickerts name being mentioned at the beginning of the film in the conversation between Judeau and Casca right before Silat's big entrance I don't speak Japanese but I'm assuming like with the other films they will probably toss a line or two somewhere to try and make up for events that were omitted. so well probably get a line about Rickert being sent on some errand with the instruction to rendezvous with the rest of the hawks later
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 23, 2013, 04:32:24 PM
He went Berserk on the guards pretty well. I agree though he didn't go there enough during the eclipse, except perhaps the scene with the arm ripping.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Roderick on June 23, 2013, 04:49:10 PM
  • Gaiseric scene too heavily underscores the similarity between SK and him--same blade (http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/sksword2.jpg), glowing eyes and all. Originally, Guts makes that inference. Here, it's simply laid out on a plate. Lame.
Good point.  It also doesn't help that the Gaiseric scene is shown within minutes of the introduction of SK

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  • Carcus doesn't break his sword, so there's no punctuation to the scene. It just ends with them crying. Utter failure.
Oh man, that's right.  I was looking forward to that, but just led to Carcus weeping.  Utter failure is right.

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  • The old woman/Conrad & Ubik is portrayed as far too manipulative and literal instead of casual, mischievous
I also didn't like this unsubtle change , but I let it slide. 

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  • Carcus' death shown on-screen, finally confirming that he didn't just run off and marry that xenomorph apostle. Case closed, you guys!
Haha, pretty anticlimactic too.  After wondering what horrible death Carcus faced in his compromising position (too horrible to even show?) his death turns out to be as bland as possible.

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  • Casca doesn't go down fighting.
Oh God, that was bad.  Like in Movie 2, Casca doesn't even put up a fight before her impending rape like in the manga.  To Movie 2's credit, they at least left in the stab with a pointed stick.

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  • Guts' "OH Face" during love scene. Cumming rainbows.
The sex scenes in the movie were pretty poorly handled overall, but the Guts x Casca scene was definitely the most awkwardly handled of the two.  The music was the only good part in a scene.  At least they fought the urge to include an equivalent of the Griffith x Charlotte foreplay scene in Movie 2.

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  • The sly grin on Griffith's face during "sasageru" ruins my favorite scene in the series. He's shown as sinister, instead of pleased We've had talks about the subtlety and meaning in that expression.  (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=8353.0) Instead, it's merely the look of a villain. Way to ruin Berserk, guys. (Comparisons 1 (http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/grifffucku4.jpg) and 2 (http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/grifffucku3.jpg))
While I thought Griffith's character portrayal was less terrible than his costars in the movie, that lack of subtlety in his feelings toward Guts was definitely a downside.  I guess they felt the need to make Griffith's motives more blatant after he was stripped of most of his complexity in the previous two movies.

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  • Griffith's descending scene is straight out of the star gate sequence in 2001 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbLRzabppus). Previous reviewers simply saying "cavemen" just scratches the surface: He has knowledge over all time and space, cell mitosis, other galaxies, all human history. The most fanfictionalized portion of the movie.
  Very similar indeed, with Griffith's vision of the infinite mysteries of the universe going almost parallel with David Bowman, though made worse through the the need to simplify and explain Griffith's conclusion after witnessing it all.  I may go so far as to call it the most fanfictionalized portion of the whole movie trilogy

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  • And the most egregious failure of the movie: Guts *surprises* Femto? (http://skullknight.net/images/movie3/femtoohshit.jpg) Really? Femto has to use his power to subvert Guts' effort? Utterly absurd fan service.
It also doesn't help that it mostly apes Guts' encounter during the Black Swordsman arc with Guts "almost" hitting Femto with his sword before getting effortlessly knocked back.  If the Black Swordsman arc is ever animated it's going to look an awful lot like deja vu.

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  • What's with the shuffling-motion sex animation? Happens with both Guts and Femto. Seriously, these guys fuck like I clap. I'm docking points.
Agreed.  Like the last movie, much of the sex looks like flat, unstimulating humping

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  • No demon child? Unforgivable.
It kinda makes sense since the movie doesn't cover any Volume 14 material, but they should have done more with the post-Eclipse set-up, especially the demon child.  I seriously doubt future movies, if they actually get made, will cover the Volume 14 material before the Black Swordsman timeline and the demon child very important to the ongoing story and lore, while highlighting the deteriorating and increasingly frustrating relationship between Casca and Guts.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gill on June 23, 2013, 06:07:57 PM
To be honest, it's really not nice how you guys ridicule everyone who liked the movie... We didn't like it, but it doesn't do any good to anyone if you keep acting as if you were superior for hating it. Yeah, maybe their taste is worse, maybe they have low standards, or maybe they just don't give a fuck about quality and faithfulness (probably because they want to enjoy it), but I don't think this gives the right to you to put their reviews up here with sarcastic comments and sad emotes saying "Look at this idiot and laugh at him, because he doesn't agree with our perfect opinions!"

Sorry for going a bit off-topic but I really don't like all this hate and disgust that formed towards fans who dared to enjoy these movies... I hated it, too, but I don't go around searching for people who disagree with me and ridicule them on a fan forum.

Whatever, I guess I will get a nice amount of hate for this post, but I felt like writing it because it really bothered me. Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 23, 2013, 06:57:46 PM
To be honest, it's really not nice how you guys ridicule everyone who liked the movie... [...] I don't think this gives the right to you to put their reviews up here with sarcastic comments and sad emotes [...] I don't go around searching for people who disagree with me and ridicule them on a fan forum [...] I guess I will get a nice amount of hate for this post

If you're referring to that youtube video, that's exaggerating quite a bit, don't you think? People aren't exactly hunting down reviews to point and laugh at them. I didn't bother watching that video, but given the comments I imagine it's in the same vein as the previous one this person did for the second movie. In which case it would admittedly be rather silly and in poor taste. Would it then be that bad for our members to voice their displeasure with it? I don't think so. A few people have commented on it, some with sadness, others with humor. None with the seething hatred you seem to be incorrectly inferring.

I think you're making this into much bigger of a deal than it really is. The reactions here are actually pretty mild compared to what you can find anywhere else on the Internet.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 23, 2013, 07:18:24 PM
I guess it goes both ways. But I get where you´re coming from, Gill, I usually try and stay away from all the hatred, I guess this got the best of me, Im not apologizing though :slan: In this case, if anything, I was referring more to their phony way of reviewing and that they even call it "review" at all sometimes. The first one pretty much just say "shit" for ten minutes and the other one just makes funny faces/forced reactions in silence. Oh, and for christ sake, dont ever forget to say that Berserk is MANLY! :guts:

Im pretty sure they wont see this, my intention isnt exactly to hurt them if you get my drift, part of me can even feel their happiness.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on June 24, 2013, 12:11:46 AM
Better than the '97 anime for sure, but as a whole it didn't evoke the same reaction in me as the manga.

This sentiment really leaves me scratching my head. I am honestly not totally against allowing someone to watch the '97 TV series as an introduction (as long as they follow it up with the manga, which it does a good job of ensuring typically) if they absolutely refuse to give Berserk a thorough chance via it's far superior print format, but I would NEVER allow someone to watch this trilogy as one. It's so horrendously off-the-mark that it sort of embarrasses me in some ways. If nothing else in the TV series, they at least look like the characters, have a soundtrack that is pretty spot-on for the atmosphere, and touches on or attempts to follow accurately many of the themes needed for one to at least begin to understand why one might become enveloped by it.

These movies have more graphic violence, some nice looking action sequences, and 3D (debatable +/-). Also this new project promised more animation, so it's entirely possible people will never follow it up with the manga at some point. Quite a disappointing prospect imo.

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Also, I'm not sure if it's been discussed here and I might have overlooked it, but what are the stand-out traits between the 15 and 18 version?

Some shading over the nether regions, more audio options, and what I think is pretty cool J-Rock music video after the credits, are present in the R-15. The music video is what makes the R-15 longer I believe.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: ApostleBob on June 24, 2013, 02:15:13 AM
Some shading over the nether regions, more audio options, and what I think is pretty cool J-Rock music video after the credits, are present in the R-15. The music video is what makes the R-15 longer I believe.

That is correct.  Just watched it last night.  The only difference is the lack of the music video and that the shadows that were hiding nudity are gone.  Seems like a Japan's MPAA equivalent requested fairly minor changes.  This is no 'Director's Cut.'  I shudder at the thought of what that might have entailed.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Viral Harvest on June 24, 2013, 06:37:31 AM
This sentiment really leaves me scratching my head. I am honestly not totally against allowing someone to watch the '97 TV series as an introduction (as long as they follow it up with the manga, which it does a good job of ensuring typically) if they absolutely refuse to give Berserk a thorough chance via it's far superior print format, but I would NEVER allow someone to watch this trilogy as one. It's so horrendously off-the-mark that it sort of embarrasses me in some ways. If nothing else in the TV series, they at least look like the characters, have a soundtrack that is pretty spot-on for the atmosphere, and touches on or attempts to follow accurately many of the themes needed for one to at least begin to understand why one might become enveloped by it.

These movies have more graphic violence, some nice looking action sequences, and 3D (debatable +/-). Also this new project promised more animation, so it's entirely possible people will never follow it up with the manga at some point. Quite a disappointing prospect imo.

Truth be told, I don't exactly hold the '97 anime nor the trilogy in the highest regard. Even though, the '97 anime is what initially introduced me to Berserk some 10-11 years ago and served as a segway for me to get into the manga. To me, it's just the difference between a turd and a turd sprinkled with golden flakes. I think I was just excited to see some of the elements and characters that were omitted from the '97 anime, even if they still weren't able to include everything faithful to the manga (as contradictory as that sounds)

I'm in no way championing the soundtrack for the trilogy, but I can't help but raise an eyebrow as to how songs like 'Forces' or 'Tell Me Why' are any more relevant? Again, turds and turds sprinkled with gold.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: JoeZeon on June 24, 2013, 07:25:21 AM
My Turn!!

I personally liked the first movie and felt really, really, REALLY disappointed by the second one. So I watched this one with little excitement or expectations. I won't be writing some huge detailed review as I think its been done enough. In short, it's very reminiscent of a Michael Bay movie. A lot of nice eye candy and action, but severely lacking in depth and character development.

The big three of Guts, Casca and Griffith are by this time very boring and flat characters. The supporting crew are just names and faces on screen as well. The thing is, save for a couple of changes here and there, what is shown from the beginning of the movie, to Guts waking up in the cave, could've passed as an average adaptation, had movies 1 and 2 done a much better job of adding meat to the story and characters. I wasn't surprised at what was cut, they could've done a lot worse. But by now with so much already taken away, they could've added Wyald, the Bakiraka, along with every other part of our wishlist and it still would've felt shallow.

The Eclipse itself was visually impressive and the animation has most certainly improved. But the icing means nothing if the cake tastes like crap.

Post-Eclipse sucked, period. I cringed when Casca ran away from Guts flailing her arms around in the air like an idiot. And even though I got the creeps when the evil spirits appeared, Guts just swinging Skull Knights sword around like a two year old was just plain silly. They cut the demon child, nuff said. Unless they plan to begin the next Movie/OVA/whatever, right were they left off and have the demon child be born then, it's beyond me why they'd cut him.  Also the post credit Black Swordsman scene was useless.

"I'm gonna suit up with this random armor, which I apparently made with no prior experience because Godo doesn't exist in this version.  Now I'm gonna plop this iron hand on, that just so happened to be here, lucky me. Then, just to top it off a little, I'm gonna grab this big ass sword, which you can't really tell is that big without knowing, and be on my merry way to presumably kill Griffith or Femto or whatever the hell he is now."  Classic...............

I really couldn't bring myself to say that I liked it or that I hated it, it was just kinda "Eh." It was kinda like one of those movies you leave the theater and never watch or think about again unless your really bored.

As far as the whole Golden Age trilogy goes, IMO the best words to describe it would be disappointing and forgettable. For every good scene, there's one or two that negate it. Perhaps 4c screwed themselves by choosing a movie format and giving themselves not nearly enough screen time to adapt the story. But at the end of the day, they really bungled this thing up.

Should there be more after this? I don't know. If they said "Fuck it, we're just going to pretend the last three movies don't exist and make a concerted effort to stick with the source material. Along with firing our composer and paying Susumu Hirasawa a bazillion dollars to make the music." Then maybe I'd be interested. But if all I ever have is the first episode of the anime, then I wouldn't be to upset.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 24, 2013, 08:10:56 AM
A few meh quality fansubs are starting to surface. One thing of note. Silat isn't as bad as he appears, he still gives Casca the opportunity to surrender and order her man to lay down their weapons. I think it's just his facial expressions that make him seem like a douche.

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 24, 2013, 08:53:33 AM
Truth be told, I don't exactly hold the '97 anime nor the trilogy in the highest regard. Even though, the '97 anime is what initially introduced me to Berserk some 10-11 years ago and served as a segway for me to get into the manga. To me, it's just the difference between a turd and a turd sprinkled with golden flakes.

Hmm, honestly, while I am (and have historically been) very critical of the TV series, I think all things considered these movies are on a lower level.

I'm in no way championing the soundtrack for the trilogy, but I can't help but raise an eyebrow as to how songs like 'Forces' or 'Tell Me Why' are any more relevant? Again, turds and turds sprinkled with gold.

I think you're a bit harsh on Forces here, though it's not the ultimate masterpiece some people have made it out to be over the years. Still, the TV series' OST has a lot of beautiful if unusual tunes that fit what was shown on screen and dare I say considerably enhanced the experience. And Hirasawa had been chosen by Miura himself.

They cut the demon child, nuff said. Unless they plan to begin the next Movie/OVA/whatever, right were they left off and have the demon child be born then, it's beyond me why they'd cut him.  Also the post credit Black Swordsman scene was useless.

*sigh* The thing is, at that point they'd cut so many things already that adding in the Demon Child at the very end wouldn't have changed much. Why that and not something else? Its omission fits the arbitrariness of the trilogy as a whole. Anyway, if they do animate a feature based on the Lost Children chapter, how much do you want to bet that they'll just skip the parts with the child? Or better yet, include him with no prior explanation whatsoever. They're not above that.

I really couldn't bring myself to say that I liked it or that I hated it, it was just kinda "Eh." It was kinda like one of those movies you leave the theater and never watch or think about again unless your really bored.

Yeah I somewhat share the same sentiment. Maybe I'm just desensitized but it failed to elicit much of an emotion throughout the whole thing. Mostly I was embarrassed.

Silat isn't as bad as he appears, he still gives Casca the opportunity to surrender and order her man to lay down their weapons. I think it's just his facial expressions that make him seem like a douche.

Well yeah, of course he does give her the opportunity to surrender. That's why he doesn't kill her outright and instead counts to 3... But his characterization is still particularly shitty overall man.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on June 24, 2013, 10:09:05 AM
^Yeah. His little characteristics and kushan descent are just so pointless and bland. I bet it only confuse unfamiliars even more. Over-all I just got the feeling he only promoted the movie into further shallowness. "WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE COOL WEAPONS!!! NEXT TIME THEY`LL PROBABLY SEND  A SAMURAI AND A VIKING!!!"
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heisenberg on June 24, 2013, 10:24:19 AM
A lot of it is the eyes. It seems like he's getting way too much of a boner slicing Casca's head off.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lenlo on June 24, 2013, 02:53:39 PM
But the icing means nothing if the cake tastes like crap.
:ganishka:
I dont know why but this had me cracking up.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IronBerserk on June 25, 2013, 02:24:55 AM
I enjoyed the movie...it was good...but by god could it have been SOOOO much better!!!

It's incredible how not developing one scene in a movie that tackles the story of Berserk can be almost crippling to the entire plot. I am of course talking about the sex scene. The complete bastardization of that scene baffled me! It is the quintessential part of the Golden Age arc that makes the Eclipse so tragic and brilliant. Both the characters of Guts and Casca come to a bond together that solidifies their characters in both themes and their need for one another. Guts' rape, killing of his father, and inability to get close to people all come to a revelation in this scene. Casca's abandonment of being with Griffith and her troubles of being a woman in a man's world all get tackled in this moment. They give each other up to one another and show each others weaknesses. They fall in love and that is why it is so beautiful. BUT THE DAMN MOVIE FORGETS ALL THAT AND GIVES US A BARE BONES HOLLYWOOD BULLSHIT FUCKING SCENE THAT COMES OFF AS BEING ONLY THERE TO GET US VIEWERS HORNY!!!

Those reasons above are also what make the Eclipse so memorable. It is because Miura takes all those themes and completely turn them against Guts and Casca. Guts must witness his best friend take all those things he hates (stuff he believed he can finally get over) and uses it against him. The love of his life is raped and taken from him, his family is killed just like his father was, and he was unable to get his best friend to be alongside him. He was betrayed and left with nothing...more than nothing. The movie never gets to that feeling of complete despair due to the lack of development the Guts and Casca love scene was supposed to have.

You could nitpick the movie by comparing it to the manga, but this movie could have been amazing and brilliant if they had discussed those topics previously mentioned. The movie is good because the animation and CG were much better handled, and the eclipse is there in all its glory. But to see it falter in the missing of one very important scene hurts. It was just like the last movie which missed the campfire of dreams scene...in a movie that centered its theme around dreams :P The complete inclusion of the sex scene could have also partially redeemed many of the last 2 movies faults. A look and understanding of Guts' background for example. A clear understanding of what his childhood was like instead of that couple of seconds foggy flashback the first movie gave us. Also, the lack of complexity also made Casca come off as whiny. It made her seem as if she was useless without a man and she needed one in order to be complete, when in reality they both needed each other. God christ, I keep coming back to the same points...I guess that's just how mad I feel about all this. I think I'm gonna go take a breather by reading the manga and experiencing how it's really supposed to be like. LOL
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2013, 02:32:56 AM
I enjoyed the movie...it was good...
...
THE DAMN MOVIE FORGETS ALL THAT AND GIVES US A BARE BONES HOLLYWOOD BULLSHIT FUCKING SCENE THAT COMES OFF AS BEING ONLY THERE TO GET US VIEWERS HORNY!!!
I really just don't understand...
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IronBerserk on June 25, 2013, 02:43:10 AM
Quote
I really just don't understand...
Didn't you read my final paragraph where I state that I found the animation and CG pretty good and the Eclipse was there in all its glory? The movie was mostly about the Eclipse and for the most part its all there. That is why I enjoyed it. I'm mad because it could have been amazing, but I ain't blind to the fact that I still enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 25, 2013, 03:51:28 AM
Didn't you read my final paragraph where I state that I found the animation and CG pretty good and the Eclipse was there in all its glory? The movie was mostly about the Eclipse and for the most part its all there. That is why I enjoyed it. I'm mad because it could have been amazing, but I ain't blind to the fact that I still enjoyed it.
Yes, I read the whole thing. I quoted the part in caps because it sort of summarizes your post, and your frustrations. Throughout your entire review you complain about a fundamental flaw, yet still concluded that you enjoyed it. That's pretty confusing to me.

I'm mad because it could have been amazing
Really...? A few more seconds with Guts and Casca at the waterfall would have been a cure-all for you and this movie?  It sounds like the same argument made by movie 1 being "just a few minutes too brief!"
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Tama on June 25, 2013, 06:17:11 AM
I don't remember hearing this in the movie podcast, but did they ever mention why Erica is living all alone if Godot isn't around? Just seems kind of weird to me..
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Maxwell on June 25, 2013, 08:16:19 AM
I don't remember hearing this in the movie podcast, but did they ever mention why Erica is living all alone if Godot isn't around? Just seems kind of weird to me..
I don't understand a lick of Japanese but I'm pretty sure I heard Erica mention Godot. Unfortunately, the studio felt it was unnecessary to include him even in the scene where Guts is gearing up as the black swordsman. They needed those extra seconds for their music video I'm sure.  :schierke:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 25, 2013, 10:49:59 AM
Yeah they just name-drop him as if that were enough. Incomprehensible for newcomers, like so many other things.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackalj on June 25, 2013, 04:28:38 PM
Well I skipped more of the movie then I actually watched... The only scene that I thought that was good, was griffith in the lake just before the eclipse... And the quick show of bodies with the sacrifice brand on the bottom of the jail tower (forgot the name).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 27, 2013, 06:14:43 AM
Well I expected a 1/5 and that's exactly what I got with this piece of shit movie. I think it may be the worst of the three. The eclipse was a complete joke. Griffith's transformation into Femto made no sense and the music accompanying all of this was so out of place. It's like they were going for some minimalist avant garde feel and it was just painful. The only good parts of this movie was SK showing what a badass he is. They should have given him 10 minutes of just killing apostles once he breaks in to save Guts and Casca. Even if it wouldn't have been cannon at least it would have been more entertaining than the rest of the film.  But of course they couldn't do that so we get one good shot of SK going through apostles like a hot knife through butter and what could have been a good fight sequence between he and Zodd that lasted about 30 seconds.

Whoever was in charge of animating the faces should be taken out into the street and beaten. I've never seen such lackluster emotions on the faces of characters in an anime before. I don't care what anyone says, the studio and the people responsible for these films come across as complete amateurs and hacks. The proof is in the pudding, the shit pudding they call animation at their studio. I hope the future plans for this series go up in flames. I agree with Aaz that you can't call yourself a real Berserk fan if you don't have complete disdain for these films. Some company basically said open wide Berserk fans we are going to take a giant piss in your mouth not once but three times with much more down the road, and we know you'll not only go see the films but buy all of them like the good little obedient fools you are.

I hope someone puts up a montage of all SK's scenes and puts it on youtube because that's pretty much the only thing worth a repeat viewing. Better yet just make a gif of him cutting through those apostles as he rides down the arm. Him attacking void and then hacking through those first apostles is the only part of the series worth a damn. The eclipse from the anime series is miles above what they attempted to do in Descent. It might not have been as good as the Manga but at least you came away like someone took a baseball bat to your balls like the whole thing was intended to do. What was supposed to be a total mind fuck, one of the great moments in storytelling, became more of a fuck you to the fans.

Damn it Miura we need the real deal.  :mozgus:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Drone on June 28, 2013, 12:52:28 AM
I've been really disappointed with these movies. The animation has been... well bad. The scene with Corkus and the Hawks being enlightened on the situation with Griffith is a good example. The soldiers have cloned animations as well as models, then Corkus falls on his knees at a rate of 12 FPS. Isn't this shit pre-rendered? All of the backgrounds looked amazing though. I wish they would stick with hand-drawn actors on top of rendered backgrounds and objects. Music, sound effects and voice actors seemed to be the strongest part of the film.

There were a lot of scenes I wish they had included: Zodd's assist on Doldrey, Bonfire of dreams, Guts' adventures sans Hawks, Skull Knight rescuing Rickert from Rosine and the Count, Wyald, etc. It just feels like they pulled out all the scenes that involved character development. But don't worry! They made sure we didn't miss Guts pumping away at Casca then finishing in just under a minute! All jokes aside, I'm glad they included Gaiseric's story as it's my favorite lore to Berserk. But instead of making it a foreshadowing of the eclipse they make it a blatant point that Skull Knight is Gaiseric. At least they remembered that Void has polydactyly.

This movie felt empty and rushed. Does anyone know how much of a hand Miura had in this? Were parts excluded or changed because they were retconned? Or did some bigwig make editorial cuts to help the flow? Either way, I wasn't very impressed. At least it made the anime look a lot better.

I'd be really interested to hear Olivier Hague's take on these movies.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on June 28, 2013, 01:42:44 AM
Quote from: Drone

I'd be really interested to hear Olivier Hague's take on these movies.
I doubt it would surprise anyone here.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 28, 2013, 12:15:40 PM
Does anyone know how much of a hand Miura had in this? Were parts excluded or changed because they were retconned?

I would warrant that Miura had very little if any say in this project, at least on that level. As for parts being excluded because they would have been officially retconned, well, it's just not how things work. The idea is ridiculous in and of itself.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IronBerserk on June 28, 2013, 07:53:26 PM
Quote
Really...? A few more seconds with Guts and Casca at the waterfall would have been a cure-all for you and this movie?  It sounds like the same argument made by movie 1 being "just a few minutes too brief!"
But it is such a fundamental moment and part of the entire Golden Age arc. In fact, it is exactly just as important as the Eclipse itself. So yes, if it was there in its entirety, the movie would be much more amazing...but that's just my opinion because I like how themes, symbolism, and emotions all come together in that one very important scene. If the movie had all those points (which it doesn't, in the slightest), then I would have been much happier  :guts:. A story that comes together is key here, and they stripped a lot of that away. A much more valid point than "just a few minutes too brief", wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Drone on June 28, 2013, 11:14:55 PM
Quote from: Aazealh
I would warrant that Miura had very little if any say in this project, at least on that level. As for parts being excluded because they would have been officially retconned, well, it's just not how things work. The idea is ridiculous in and of itself.

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I'm glad he probably wasn't? Who knows, maybe it would have been better if he were. I doubt it would have been a Golden Age series.

Sorry about the poor wording in the second question. I just assumed Miura played a larger role in the making of the film, and perhaps decided to change a few things since he's been working on it for so long. Though now that I think about it, retconning material from the manga through a movie is rather silly.

Quote from: IronBerserk
But it is such a fundamental moment and part of the entire Golden Age arc. In fact, it is exactly just as important as the Eclipse itself. So yes, if it was there in its entirety, the movie would be much more amazing...but that's just my opinion because I like how themes, symbolism, and emotions all come together in that one very important scene. If the movie had all those points (which it doesn't, in the slightest), then I would have been much happier  . A story that comes together is key here, and they stripped a lot of that away. A much more valid point than "just a few minutes too brief", wouldn't you say?

I think Walter is just trying to understand why you think that part is such a "fundamental part of the entire Golden Age arc", and how adding a little more to that scene would have improved the movie overall. What are these themes, the symbolism, and emotions that are tied together by this scene?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 29, 2013, 07:49:39 AM
But it is such a fundamental moment and part of the entire Golden Age arc. In fact, it is exactly just as important as the Eclipse itself. So yes, if it was there in its entirety, the movie would be much more amazing...

There's something you don't understand here. This moment is pivotal and amazing because it is the culmination of various developments, be they character or story-related. If you remove those developments from the story, then this particular scene becomes hollow and meaningless. It's what happened here. So this scene could have never been "fixed" without first fixing everything else that came before it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 29, 2013, 08:10:05 PM
There's something you don't understand here. This moment is pivotal and amazing because it is the culmination of various developments, be they character or story-related. If you remove those developments from the story, then this particular scene becomes hollow and meaningless. It's what happened here. So this scene could have never been "fixed" without first fixing everything else that came before it.

Exactly, the emotional build up for all the key players in the Band, especially the trio of Guts, Casca and Griffith, as well as the closeness of the whole group, needs to be emphasized from the minute Guts joins them. These were people that accepted Guts and created a change in him from a bitter and traumatized teen to someone who felt like he had a home, friends that cared about him and a purpose in his life beyond simply being someone who swings his sword and delights in crushing his enemies. The betrayal at the Eclipse and the gruesome end of everyone other than Guts and Casca, who had dreams of their own which was emphasized by the bonfire of dreams scene (left out of the movie) is supposed to have a massive emotional impact on the reader.

The movies really failed to create that emotional connection by removing vital parts for seemingly no reason at all.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IronBerserk on June 30, 2013, 12:25:19 AM
Quote
There's something you don't understand here. This moment is pivotal and amazing because it is the culmination of various developments, be they character or story-related. If you remove those developments from the story, then this particular scene becomes hollow and meaningless. It's what happened here. So this scene could have never been "fixed" without first fixing everything else that came before it.
Quote
Exactly, the emotional build up for all the key players in the Band, especially the trio of Guts, Casca and Griffith, as well as the closeness of the whole group, needs to be emphasized from the minute Guts joins them. These were people that accepted Guts and created a change in him from a bitter and traumatized teen to someone who felt like he had a home, friends that cared about him and a purpose in his life beyond simply being someone who swings his sword and delights in crushing his enemies. The betrayal at the Eclipse and the gruesome end of everyone other than Guts and Casca, who had dreams of their own which was emphasized by the bonfire of dreams scene (left out of the movie) is supposed to have a massive emotional impact on the reader.

The movies really failed to create that emotional connection by removing vital parts for seemingly no reason at all.
Yes, and I completely agree with you guys. Actually I stated in my first post that the failing of the second movie was that they didn't include the Bonfire of Dreams sequence...a very dumb move on their part. :mozgus: But I also suggested that the sex scene could have helped the past movies if they had added to the sex scene by putting in flashback scenes of childhood Guts in order to explain the killing of his father and the rape. It would have explained why he took risks on the battlefield before he met Griffith and how he didn't care too much about dying. Also would have explained why he was mad at Casca in the first movie when she said he was "you're just like you were before and you never changed" (something like that). It would have added layers to his character. After all, the sex scene does have Guts in dialogue explain to Casca his inner childhood turmoils. The only difference they could have done and added in the movie was put a bit more visual representation. That would have made the movie and trilogy much better. Not as masterful as the manga (that's for sure) but it definitely would have been a great addition that adds to the characters and Eclipse.......but the point here is that they didn't. They took a masterpiece and turned it into average movies. Very annoying and I could definitely see why people would be insulted.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: KazigluBey on June 30, 2013, 02:30:36 AM
Yes, and I completely agree with you guys. Actually I stated in my first post that the failing of the second movie was that they didn't include the Bonfire of Dreams sequence...a very dumb move on their part. :mozgus: But I also suggested that the sex scene could have helped the past movies if they had added to the sex scene by putting in flashback scenes of childhood Guts in order to explain the killing of his father and the rape. It would have explained why he took risks on the battlefield before he met Griffith and how he didn't care too much about dying. Also would have explained why he was mad at Casca in the first movie when she said he was "you're just like you were before and you never changed" (something like that). It would have added layers to his character. After all, the sex scene does have Guts in dialogue explain to Casca his inner childhood turmoils. The only difference they could have done and added in the movie was put a bit more visual representation. That would have made the movie and trilogy much better. Not as masterful as the manga (that's for sure) but it definitely would have been a great addition that adds to the characters and Eclipse.......but the point here is that they didn't. They took a masterpiece and turned it into average movies. Very annoying and I could definitely see why people would be insulted.

One of the problems with the flashback scenes is that they do a really poor job of showing the audience what really happened. The effect they use is kind of a disjointed dream like visual but unless you know what happens from the manga you are going to be hard pressed to have a clear picture. They could have used a few minutes and showed Guts when he was with Gambino. Then you have the scene when Guts is being paid for his part in storming the castle that the Band of the Hawk was helping to defend, and the guy paying him puts his hand on Guts' shoulder and Guts recoils and threatens the guy, saying not to touch him. Guts traumatic experiences as a child plays a huge part in his personal transformation. I mean his being able to be intimate and ultimately have sex with Casca just goes to show how much he has changed. Given what happened to him as a kid it's obvious why he would want to be a loner and see real friendship as something strange.

Then you have the dream sequence after Griffith is rescued where he's married to Casca. He's shown as some pathetic character that needs to be taken care of, reduced to almost nothing as a person and of course that is why he tries to kill himself by slicing his neck open on that sharp piece of wood when he's at the stream. These events give you more insight into why Griffith chose to become Femto; he went from this great military leader that was beloved by all his troops to a feeble person who had to be taken care of like a child. This definitely added to his despair as his dream would be lost forever if he didn't choose to become part of the god hand, there was no alternative. 

When it comes to adaptations the biggest thing fans are going to gripe about is what was changed or what was left out. In the case of LOTR there was no choice but to alter the story as it was impossible to tell it all without putting out more movies which would have been overkill and probably wouldn't have worked. However Berserk is basically set up like a storyboard in a sense with all the dialog, nothing is narrated over like it would be in a novel. You have the playbook so just follow the damn thing. I would have given the studio credit if they actually changed something that improved the story, but that is not the case here. That isn't to say there isn't something that could be changed to improve on things, I'm sure Miura looks back on what he was writing when he started Berserk and wished he'd have changed something here or there, or approached something a little differently, that's completely normal.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: IronBerserk on June 30, 2013, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
One of the problems with the flashback scenes is that they do a really poor job of showing the audience what really happened. The effect they use is kind of a disjointed dream like visual but unless you know what happens from the manga you are going to be hard pressed to have a clear picture. They could have used a few minutes and showed Guts when he was with Gambino.
Definitely agree, some clarity would have helped this movie a lot. Actually some clarity put anywhere in any of the movies to explain the foggy flashback of the first movie would have helped the trilogy so much. Removing some details is understandable since they have budget constraints and can not add everything. It really in my opinion all comes down to three scenes. The childhood scenes, the campfire of dreams, and the sex scene. Adding in all those three would have been enough to make these movies amazing.
Quote
That isn't to say there isn't something that could be changed to improve on things, I'm sure Miura looks back on what he was writing when he started Berserk and wished he'd have changed something here or there, or approached something a little differently, that's completely normal.
We'd have to ask the admins here but I do think in one of the interviews or questionnaires Kentaro was asked if he ever regretted writing something in his past writings of Berserk. He replied that he didn't regret anything he ever wrote...he must be a really confident writer :P Understandable considering the quality. Makes you wonder if he's aware of the idea that he might be the writer of the greatest manga ever? Well for me it is. Haven't read anything that has surpassed its quality. :guts:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on June 30, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
We'd have to ask the admins here but I do think in one of the interviews or questionnaires Kentaro was asked if he ever regretted writing something in his past writings of Berserk. He replied that he didn't regret anything he ever wrote...

Here you are, from Puella's translations of the Miura letter in this thread:
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=9513.50

Q5: What portion of the story was the most difficult in terms of making hard decisions about where to take the direction of the series? Any regrets?

No specific part was especially difficult or regrettable to me.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on June 30, 2013, 05:19:16 PM
But I also suggested that the sex scene could have helped the past movies if they had added to the sex scene by putting in flashback scenes of childhood Guts in order to explain the killing of his father and the rape. It would have explained why he took risks on the battlefield before he met Griffith and how he didn't care too much about dying.

Would have been too little too late, and would have not affected the failures of the previous movies, which would have remained bad in and of themselves. That scene is meant to be enhanced by our previous knowledge of each character's past/personalities, not to make up for their absence

Removing some details is understandable since they have budget constraints and can not add everything.

Time constraints could be a reason for the removal of certains segments of the story, but not budgetary ones.

It really in my opinion all comes down to three scenes. The childhood scenes, the campfire of dreams, and the sex scene. Adding in all those three would have been enough to make these movies amazing.

You're really far from the truth here. There's no easy fix for those movies (for many reasons, including the fact that the movie format itself is not appropriate for that part of the story).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: TheBranded1 on June 30, 2013, 05:55:44 PM
Finally was able to see it. If the guys who made this movies said they were faithful to the manga ,then I guess the only  faithful things were character names and title. In my opinion I think they thought , since fans already know what happens, why show it in that manner. We'll do it our way and it will still be awesome . Most major scenes were butchered horrible. Especially, guts and casca's intimate moment. There was no emotion from either one of them. It was just sex for the hell of it and to make use of the rating if the movie. Skullknight's appearance to guts was exaggerated to me as well, and since it was daytime , I guess This SK only comes at night  or has his own dark field when the sun is up. The rape scene also doesn't show casca as an unwilling victim as she could be. You don't see much desperation and agony in her, most if the time you just see her breast bouncing( hentai anyone). Of corse, Guts attempt at Femto was even more ridiculous . Noticed even Ubik was like "uh?" As if Guts could really do something to " the demon king" .

2/5

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on July 01, 2013, 07:44:14 PM
Spoke to some guys that watched it, without having read the manga naturally. They liked it, and they wanted them to continue adapting it. But of course, it was a very shallow kinda "enthusiasm" so to speak. Here I been fan boying over Berserk all these years and beyond their facades of forced reactions - like, say, the same as you´d react to the Spartacus TV-show - I can totally see they´re truly like, "thats it?" and think Im into it just for gore/blood and sex/nudity. Really, I felt like a 3 year old showing my fake smiling parents a half assed drawing. SO FRUSTRATING. :mozgus: :mozgus: :mozgus:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Bender on July 02, 2013, 04:31:18 AM
I got around to watching it the other day.  I am in the worst of the trilogy camp.  At this point I am just repeating a lot of what others have said but I will just add them to the pile. 

The beginning was a hacked up rush job that barley gave any information.  One thing that bothered me was that I don't think the anger Guts felt in the manga about Griffiths condition really came across well in the movie, and the escape was so short and lame.  No character development between Guts and Casca, Charlotte was just kinda there for no reason except to tell the story about Gaiseric, and what was the deal with the arrows raining down on them as they fled from the army?  They were attacked from the front but never cut off?  Where did those guys go?  I don't get it.  Also the whole "OH NO! They almost kinda shot a horse with an arrow!", but it's ok because the horse will still keep doing what is was doing regardless, is just terrible writing.  These people suck.

Like others have said, the strongest part of the movie was the pre-eclipse/pre-sacrifice section(which isn't saying much).  It seemed to work fairly well but once the sacrifice was made it just went to complete shit again.  The fade to blacks killed any tension or momentum the film had going.  They failed with Voids entrance.  They whole Guts attacking Femto and crap...  :mozgus:  Fuck you Studio 4c.  I paused the movie for a moment and thought about just turning it off at this point.  What a betrayal to the source material.   :judo:  Skull Knights entrance was pretty cool.  It would have been better if we hadn't seen it an hour and twenty minutes earlier, and in the previous two films.  Rickert was just there for no reason, and why did Guts have a I can't believe hes gone moment about him?  I also think Skull Knight finished off Zodd. :badbone:  What is wrong with these guys, they cut all these great scenes with great lines and add their own weird bullshit like that scene with Puck and a bunch of apostles flying in the air with a tentacle monster in the clouds.

1/5 Stars.  Worst of the three.  Too much is wrong with it to list.  If we are lucky these people will give up and maybe a few years down the road others will give Berserk another shot and do it justice. 

I am about to listen to the podcast.  I am looking forward to major ripping on this film, it will make me feel better.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on July 02, 2013, 04:34:07 AM
Spoke to some guys that watched it, without having read the manga naturally. They liked it, and they wanted them to continue adapting it. But of course, it was a very shallow kinda "enthusiasm" so to speak. Here I been fan boying over Berserk all these years and beyond their facades of forced reactions - like, say, the same as you´d react to the Spartacus TV-show - I can totally see they´re truly like, "thats it?" and think Im into it just for gore/blood and sex/nudity. Really, I felt like a 3 year old showing my fake smiling parents a half assed drawing. SO FRUSTRATING. :mozgus: :mozgus: :mozgus:

Man why'd you do it? Just why?! =P Like I said earlier, I would never under any circumstances let someone use this project as their introduction to the series. It's abhorring.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on July 02, 2013, 07:46:30 AM
^Sure, but even if I had known I dont think I could´ve stopped them. I mean, reading a long blackNwhite boring manga, or save time and watch an amazingly animated film trilogy with a lot of eye candy like sex and violence and blood spraying. Isnt the answere just a matter of course? :schierke:

...Yeah thats probably what most people that even knows its based off a manga think.

The sad thing is that some people actually ask those youtube kids wether its faithful to the manga, and you may guess what answere they get.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 13, 2013, 01:56:04 PM
I didn't really have a problem with Guts' almost-stab against Femto. If they're skipping The Black Swordsman Arc it makes some sense and at least shows some foresight on the writers part. Granted, Guts should've been in excruciating pain getting that close to a God Hand. It was probably one of the few 'additions' from the movies that I approved of. Overall I agree with the consensus here that it was another disjointed and rushed adaptation.

My main gripe was Guts doing absolutely nothing while Griffth was fondling Casca. What was he waiting for? An invitation? And then Guts finally puts 2+2 together and is all 'OH NO U DI'INT!' Yeaaah, the guy just sacrificed you and your pals to the forces of hell, mate, and now looks like a satanic Batman. I don't think he's above a little surprise sex.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Rhombaad on July 15, 2013, 07:43:54 PM
I didn't really have a problem with Guts' almost-stab against Femto. If they're skipping The Black Swordsman Arc it makes some sense and at least shows some foresight on the writers part.

It makes no sense at all. In the Black Swordsman arc, Guts didn't even come close to hurting Femto, and Femto didn't look one bit worried, even when the Dragon Slayer was about to come crashing down upon him. He blew Guts away from him without lifting a finger, and nearly killed him (fortunately, Puck was there to heal the poor guy).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 17, 2013, 05:52:46 PM
It makes no sense at all. In the Black Swordsman arc, Guts didn't even come close to hurting Femto, and Femto didn't look one bit worried, even when the Dragon Slayer was about to come crashing down upon him. He blew Guts away from him without lifting a finger, and nearly killed him (fortunately, Puck was there to heal the poor guy).

As a replacement scene to illustrate both Guts' tenacity and his hopelessness, it more or less gets the job done. Perhaps Femto's expression could have been clearer and not as ambiguous, but that feels nitpicky to me. My immediate reaction was one of Femto toying with Guts. I don't believe he honestly felt threatened at any point. Believe me, these movies have a lot of legitimate faults, but I can live with this deviation.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Maxwell on July 17, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
As a replacement scene to illustrate both Guts' tenacity and his hopelessness, it more or less gets the job done. Perhaps Femto's expression could have been clearer and not as ambiguous, but that feels nitpicky to me. My immediate reaction was one of Femto toying with Guts. I don't believe he honestly felt threatened at any point. Believe me, these movies have a lot of legitimate faults, but I can live with this deviation.
I honestly think it illustrated the complete opposite, it actually showed hope for Guts. It would've been better if Femto was smirking to Guts but nope, it was just an ugly frown that Femto will probably never show in the entire series. It made it look like Femto was straining to use his powers against Guts and I just think that's retarded. To make it even worse, wasn't one of the God Hand like Slan shocked by it?

Like most people have said, they probably added that scene to kind of replace the scene where Guts tries to attack Femto in volume 3, because if they do continue they probably wont do the Black Swordsman Arc, but they even got that completely wrong.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 24, 2013, 10:32:26 PM
The thing that annoyed me the most with this movie, is Griffiths last look at Guts, they gave him a simple evil expression, completely changing the depth of the expression that he gives in the Manga. 

It makes Griffith appear more one dimensional, like he was evil all along, where the way I interpret it, is that he wasn't evil until after he became  :femto:. its quite an important scene to change.

Also the whole bit in the Eclipse with guts not being helpless for the whole time  Casa was being raped takes away from the impact of the scene, and removing the build up with the apostles and Casca to. 

Also they didin't include the image of Broken Griffith laughing manically before he tries to off himself, one the most disturbing images from the Manga and original Anime.

Casca bench pressing broken Griffith was funny though.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: JoeZeon on July 25, 2013, 03:42:15 AM
Casca was being raped takes away from the impact of the scene, and removing the build up with the apostles and Casca to. 

I know people like to comment that Casca being or not being raped by the Apostles ratcheted up the suspense and build up, but personally I've never really prescribed to that notion. Casca being raped by Femto was one thing, but having the Apostles gang up on her was a little much for me. I can understand why, but for me it was just over the top. It was actually the only part that I was glad they cut in the whole series.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on July 25, 2013, 09:42:46 AM
I know people like to comment that Casca being or not being raped by the Apostles ratcheted up the suspense and build up, but personally I've never really prescribed to that notion. Casca being raped by Femto was one thing, but having the Apostles gang up on her was a little much for me. I can understand why, but for me it was just over the top. It was actually the only part that I was glad they cut in the whole series.

But there's no indication that Casca was raped by the apostles who captured her. However in the manga, after Guts sees all of his comrades dead, the last straw is Casca, unconscious, being toted around like a trophy by one of them (much like the others' remains were by other apostles). Then Guts made a mad dash to save her, only to finally be stopped in his track when Volkov bit his arm. Now this is a pretty desperate scene as Guts is rushing to her, trying to avoid her being impaled (and most likely killed) ignominiously. Then, as he watches powerlessly, the apostle stops. The scene freezes as Femto is born. Guts has to watch it all, him descending, and then actually raping her.

Now the way this series of event is conceived is what builds up the tension and suspense, and dare I say the ultimate horror of it (Guts not being able to save her). And it interlocks with the rest of the event (from Casca and Judo's escape to each of the others' deaths). I don't think it's something one can really disagree with, nor that altering the way it plays out lessens the sequence as a whole.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2013, 12:42:22 AM
I decided to split the conversation about Casca's rape into a new topic, since it was no longer about the anime.

Enjoy it over here:

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14024.0
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 27, 2013, 10:12:13 AM
It makes Griffith appear more one dimensional, like he was evil all along, where the way I interpret it, is that he wasn't evil until after he became  :femto:. its quite an important scene to change.

Arguable (about Griffith being evil, not the botched facial expression). Griffith always gave the vibe of a wolf in sheep's clothing, to me. Obviously not "pure evil" (that's literally what he is now) but this was a man who sold his body to the night, buried child soldiers, and committed acts of treason all for his own single-minded ambition. It was only really Guts (and to an extent, Judeau) who knew the real Griffith. Of course, even then, Guts never thought him capable of what transpired at the Eclipse.

Casca most likely wasn't raped by the apostles only brutally molested. The final panel of her (before Femto's birth) is her being groped by claws and tentacles, one of them forcing itself down her throat. But since it all happens off-screen there's no way of saying with absolute certainty. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 27, 2013, 07:02:26 PM
Yeah I know he had those evil tendancies and could be very ruthless, I actually kinda liked that about him up to the eclipse, I was cheering for him when he killed of the nobility who were trying to wipe him out, it was the whole common man opposing the corrupt powers that be, he was a revolutionary who rose up against the corrupt power structures of the time, and he believed in talent and ability over divine rule and class structures.

I felt like the Godhand cleverly manipulated him into making the sacrifice, although he didn't really any other option as he was pretty much completely broken by that point.  It's amazing that he retained some level of sanity after all the torture, and assisted in his escape and tried to save guts from falling from the alter as well.

What he becomes as Femto is truly tragic.

Of course he always had that part of him that was Femto, he had to have an element like that to achieve what he did. It was a necessary part of his character.

But yeah pure Femto is not good.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2013, 07:06:00 PM
Yeah I know he had those evil tendancies and could be very ruthless, I actually kinda liked that about him up to the eclipse, I was cheering for him when he killed of the nobility who were trying to wipe him out, it was the whole common man opposing the corrupt powers that be, he was a revolutionary who rose up against the corrupt power structures of the time

They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. And I don't see how the power structures of the time were corrupt either. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 27, 2013, 07:11:17 PM
They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.

Yes but they despised him because he was a commoner above all else, I think he would have made the kingdom a better more just place if he had achieved his goal, I don't think it was totally selfish. From how he treated the band of the hawk with respect for the most part is indication of what kind of ruler he would have been. But we will never know for sure if he would have been a good king anyway.

I don't think he would have been a tyrannical leader, he probably would have made a better place for the common people because he would have had compassion for where they are, because that's were he came from.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2013, 10:02:41 PM
Yes but they despised him because he was a commoner above all else

That's an overly simple way to look at things.

I think he would have made the kingdom a better more just place if he had achieved his goal

There's no way to know.

I don't think it was totally selfish.

I'd say it was actually pretty selfish, and in the end he sacrificed everything and everyone for it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 27, 2013, 10:24:16 PM
They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. And I don't see how the power structures of the time were corrupt either. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.

I mean corrupt in the sense that the nobles for the most part looked down on the common people, and so I didn't have any sympathy for the ones who got killed by Griffith actions, apart from Adonis of course.

The King himself was a coward who was unfit to rule and fancied his own Daughter, so yeah I think Griffith would have been a better king than him.

That's an overly simple way to look at things.

There's no way to know.

I'd say it was actually pretty selfish, and in the end he sacrificed everything and everyone for it.

A lot of great leaders could be seen as being selfish people, Griffiths intentions were probably mostly selfish, but he still would have created a better world I think. The hawks benefited from following him and were about to becoming nobility until it all went wrong, so although being selfish it would have inadvertently benefited his followers in the process. 

Anyway I was wondering if you guys going to do a podcast review of the second and third films?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2013, 11:02:02 PM
I mean corrupt in the sense that the nobles for the most part looked down on the common people, and so I didn't have any sympathy for the ones who got killed by Griffith actions, apart from Adonis of course.

Not having sympathy for them is fine, but they weren't corrupt, nor were the "power structures" as you call them, since those structures were built on nobles being superior to common people.

The hawks benefited from following him and were about to becoming nobility until it all went wrong, so although being selfish it would have inadvertently benefited his followers in the process.

That those of his men who survived benefited from his personal rise to glory can hardly be compared to citizens being ruled upon.

Anyway I was wondering if you guys going to do a podcast review of the second and third films?

We did them already: Movie II (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13725.0) | Movie III (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13978.0)
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 28, 2013, 05:06:49 PM
Not having sympathy for them is fine, but they weren't corrupt, nor were the "power structures" as you call them, since those structures were built on nobles being superior to common people.

That those of his men who survived benefited from his personal rise to glory can hardly be compared to citizens being ruled upon.

We did them already: Movie II (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13725.0) | Movie III (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13978.0)

Yes I think I was probably over romanticising Griffiths intentions and nature earlier, His dream at the end of the day was all about him rising to the top. And what he says about what a friend is to him, yeah pretty grandiose and selfish really. Guts picks up on that when they first battle, when he says something like ' you act so high and mighty, like your above everything, you make me sick!' Having reread the Manga I think I have a better understanding of Griffith now. It's guess its easy to fall under his charms and not see his true nature pre eclipse.

I was surprised in the review no one mentioned how they missed out Griffith's maniacal laugh before he tries to off himself, and when Casca pushes him up and he flails around like a zombie. I guess more minor changes to some of the major ones. Its good you mentioned the Casca Femto kiss as that was so wrong in the film.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on July 29, 2013, 12:30:49 PM
I was surprised in the review no one mentioned how they missed out Griffith's maniacal laugh before he tries to off himself, and when Casca pushes him up and he flails around like a zombie.

  • Casca pushes Griffith off her, then makes Griffith shamble in the air like a zombie? What is this garbage?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 29, 2013, 04:05:16 PM
Having SK's attack on Void be deflected behind him instead of straight back at him was a nice touch. I always thought that looked a little 'off' in the original manga. Yes, obvious straw grasping is obvious. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on July 29, 2013, 04:29:30 PM
Having SK's attack on Void be deflected behind him instead of straight back at him was a nice touch. I always thought that looked a little 'off' in the original manga. Yes, obvious straw grasping is obvious.
I thought it was quite lame. The movie made SK appear prepared for the deflection. In the manga, he was caught off-guard, but reacted quickly by guarding against it. Much cooler.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 30, 2013, 12:03:57 AM
I thought it was quite lame. The movie made SK appear prepared for the deflection. In the manga, he was caught off-guard, but reacted quickly by guarding against it. Much cooler.

I have to agree with Wally here..
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Maxwell on July 30, 2013, 01:10:13 AM
I still can't believe the size of Void's brain in this movie. How could they sit there and agree with each other that it's totally okay to leave it like that..? Are they just gonna give Ganishka a mustache?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 30, 2013, 07:07:27 PM
I thought it was quite lame. The movie made SK appear prepared for the deflection. In the manga, he was caught off-guard, but reacted quickly by guarding against it. Much cooler.

Maybe it's something, for me, that would look better in motion. Did the PS2 game animate that scene?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on July 30, 2013, 07:14:14 PM
Maybe it's something, for me, that would look better in motion. Did the PS2 game animate that scene?
You mean the scene where instead of Femto being born, Griffith sprouts back to life as if nothing happened?  :ganishka: Nope. No Skull Knight in that sequence. It ends with Guts screaming and then "Now Loading..."

For your review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOgzm70p-to
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 30, 2013, 07:25:01 PM
I still can't believe the size of Void's brain in this movie. How could they sit there and agree with each other that it's totally okay to leave it like that..? Are they just gonna give Ganishka a mustache?

Surely the size of voids brain  :void:  is one of the lesser offences of this movie.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on July 31, 2013, 01:40:49 PM
You mean the scene where instead of Femto being born, Griffith sprouts back to life as if nothing happened?  :ganishka: Nope. No Skull Knight in that sequence. It ends with Guts screaming and then "Now Loading..."

For your review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOgzm70p-to

Ah, who could forget that travesty, especially Casca running away like a little girl instead of wanting to die sword in hand. For a game that was aimed at the Berserk audience, why did they feel the need to drop Femto? It wouldn't exactly be confusing for newbs to grasp that, for want of a better term, Griffith has a human form and a demon one. *shrug*

Surely the size of voids brain  :void:  is one of the lesser offences of this movie.

Maybe but it's still quite jarring. I agree with the guys on the podcast. The animators were told 'we need a guy with an exposed brain', and that's what we got. What's a few more inches?  :schierke:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Zoddiscute on July 31, 2013, 03:34:38 PM
Ah, who could forget that travesty, especially Casca running away little a little girl instead of wanting to die sword in hand. For a game that was aimed at the Berserk audience, why did they feel the need to drop Femto? It wouldn't exactly be confusing for newbs to grasp that, for want of a better term, Griffith has a human form and a demon one. *shrug*

Maybe but it's still quite jarring. I agree with the guys on the podcast. The animators were told 'we need a guy with an exposed brain', and that's what we got. What's a few more inches?  :schierke:

To be honest I never noticed Voids brain, I didn't really have a problem with the visuals in the films for the most part either, I was more disturbed by the cuts and changes. If they got the story and characters right I would have been happy but NO!! they had to go and fuck with it. Whyyyyyyyy!!!!  :judo:

I did think Charlotte looked pretty hot though, that was the one good thing I will take from the films.

That and they made me re-watch the original Anime and re-read the Manga so I could reinstate my love for the story again.

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on August 06, 2013, 01:56:13 AM
So I saw the movie last Saturday at Fantasia. The soundtrack... killed... everything! the rest I won't mentioned, not worth my time.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on August 08, 2013, 05:15:42 PM
During Griffith's tripped out vision, I'd love to know what the hell that's supposed to be at 01:17:40? Just after the shot of Griffith's kingdom. We see a creepy looking individual reaching down to inspect something. Seriously, that's the only way I can describe it.  I can identify most of the stuff in that scene but that one eludes me. Maybe I'm missing something here. Throw us a bone if you've got one.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on August 08, 2013, 07:03:24 PM
During Griffith's tripped out vision, I'd love to know what the hell that's supposed to be at 01:17:40? Just after the shot of Griffith's kingdom. We see a creepy looking individual reaching down to inspect something. Seriously, that's the only way I can describe it.  I can identify most of the stuff in that scene but that one eludes me. Maybe I'm missing something here. Throw us a bone if you've got one.
He's witnessing his own (presumably) birth. Note the shape around the frame there. It's from the perspective of a baby, with a woman's arms outstretched toward it.

It's part of what makes this whole sequence absurd.  The presumption that a God Hand has access to these impossible memories.  I mean, sure, it's possible, but it's far from canon.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on August 08, 2013, 07:16:04 PM
He's witnessing his own (presumably) birth. Note the shape around the frame there. It's from the perspective of a baby, with a woman's arms outstretched toward it.

It's part of what makes this whole sequence absurd.  The presumption that a God Hand has access to these impossible memories.  I mean, sure, it's possible, but it's far from canon.

Yeh I was kinda disappointed by that part... not that I'm surprised they put a ridiculous and pointless part like that. It's all they've done so far, add pointless stuff that does not serve the story.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on August 08, 2013, 07:21:19 PM
Yeh I was kinda disappointed by that part... not that I'm surprised they put a ridiculous and pointless part like that. It's all they've done so far, add pointless stuff that does not serve the story.
It serves the effect of showing how Griffith has transcended humanity and become a demigod. But the way it's done is ... rather ridiculous.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on August 08, 2013, 10:48:33 PM
It serves the effect of showing how Griffith has transcended humanity and become a demigod. But the way it's done is ... rather ridiculous.

Yeah well I thought it was obvious enough without adding these said ridiculous way. But I get what you mean.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on August 09, 2013, 06:58:07 PM
He's witnessing his own (presumably) birth. Note the shape around the frame there. It's from the perspective of a baby, with a woman's arms outstretched toward it.

Scariest midwife ever. No wonder Griffith joined the dark side.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: jackson_hurley on August 09, 2013, 07:32:58 PM
Oh well apparently they liked the third film a lot at Fantasia for it won The Satoshi Kon Award for Achievement in Animation along with  Makoto Shinkai's The Garden of Words. Here's the article if you want to read it :

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-08-08/the-garden-of-words-berserk-kick-heart-win-at-montreal-fantasia-fest#WeId490mmpXCGu3X.01 (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-08-08/the-garden-of-words-berserk-kick-heart-win-at-montreal-fantasia-fest#WeId490mmpXCGu3X.01)
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on August 16, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
What do people make of this summary that I found whilst browsing TV Tropes:

Quote
The movie trilogy is also pragmatic, but acts much like a non-comical abridged version of the source material. Since there are only three movies that are only about an hour or so long (the third film is a bit longer) a lot more had to be cut or re-arranged and characterization is largely limited to that of the three main characters; some newcomers to the series might be unaware of some concepts and themes without being referred to the source material. Though some important scenes were cut or downplayed: naked water fight, Griffith's history with Gennon, and the campfire of dreams scene to name a few the creators did add other tidbits: Puck and Skull Knight not only made their animated debut finally, but Farnese and Serpico are seen at the ball scene! and made other scenes a lot more emotional having Guts and Casca dance together at the ball; Griffith's sex scene with Charlotte making these changes and additions all over worthwhile. Since these are theatrical releases, gore is played exactly how it was in the original manga (bloody battle sequences are featured primarily because newer animation techniques allowed for more graphic detail), and more disturbingly, sexual violence is played up in the movies. Some fans even go as far as saying that the third movie, which covers the infamous Eclipse event, is actually worse than the manga depiction.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on August 16, 2013, 01:58:25 PM
What do people make of this summary that I found whilst browsing TV Tropes:
What would be your guess?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on August 16, 2013, 02:35:11 PM
What do people make of this summary that I found whilst browsing TV Tropes

It's pretty shitty, as you'd expect from TV Tropes.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hanma_Baki on August 22, 2013, 10:18:05 PM
At this point all the hating is getting old I know, but y'know it kinda got an ironic ring to it, having watched this movie we finally know the meaning of true despair - exactly what its ultimately supposed to convey. So in a way, they did succeed :ganishka:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: SuperVegetto on August 23, 2013, 08:58:00 PM
It's pretty shitty, as you'd expect from TV Tropes.

Exactly. They were even saying the music of the trilogy fits Berserk more than the OST from the old anime
LETS JUST PRAISE EVERYTHING NEW GUISE BECAUSE BURSURHK!!
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Judo on August 27, 2013, 05:17:04 PM
The author is particularly praising the Guts/Casca-dance-scene and the Griffith/Charlotte-sex-scene... I can't believe someone actually liked those. 
:isidro:

Seriously, why couldn't they just make a new TV-series with 26 episodes per year an stick to canon.
Every time I watch a new episode of Shingeki no Kyojin I keep thinking "they should have done Berserk like this"
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on August 27, 2013, 05:28:46 PM
Seriously, why couldn't they just make a new TV-series with 26 episodes per year an stick to canon.
I was going to say that it's because Studio 4°C's forté is feature films, but it's not the case. They've done TV series as well.  In any case, I imagine it was a business decision. I'm sure they examined several options and concluded another series wasn't as financially feasible as a feature film trilogy (with the option of continuing).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lithrael on September 11, 2013, 12:17:53 AM
Finally saw it.  They left out so much... 

It was frustrating to watch some of these long drawn out scenes with no dialog when there was so much important dialog in the book.  Agree that adding things like any of the cut parts of Guts & Casca's scene would be shutting the barn door after the horses ran away during the first two movies...  Nevertheless I would have been so much happier with it if they'd tried.

The movie looked much better than the last one, but kept breaking its promise by putting more awful CG on the screen every time you start to really feel immersed.  When we see the actual drawn version of Carcus during the eclipse, I don't know how anyone unfamiliar with the story would even know it was him; up til then, 90% of the time he was an awful CG puppet.

Removing so much dialog and plot also made things a lot slashier than the source material.  Casca never brings up Charlotte as the reason there was no room for her as Griffith's woman, for example.  It ends up sounding like the reason she couldn't connect with Griff, was Guts and only Guts.

Though I knew we would never see it in this stripped adaptation, I still missed Charlotte's scene during the rescue, when she steps up to mislead the guards.  I'd held out a little hope, since she seemed to be one of the characters that was still getting to be in the story a little.

So many scenes I missed.  I know there wouldn't have been time for all of them but we coulda included one or two and cut Griffith's trippin' scene.

Lots of scenes I preferred the anime version of.  The biggest one that sticks out is that I liked the anime's version of Griffith's vision of the creatures coming out of the wall.  The manga gives me the impression of stillness and quiet, and the anime stuck with that; in the movie he's shivering like crazy, and it just didn't feel right to me.

There were a few scenes I liked as well.  Pretty much, the ones that were most like the manga and had the least CGI in them, and also the least unfortunate music choices.

I'll have to check out the dub at some point and see if I like it any better, too, because there was a LOT of voice work I did not like at all in this movie.  Way too many stereotypical shonen anime voice trope type choices.  Especially the gathering apostles all having the 'bad guy comedy flunky' voice at the beginning of the ceremony.  Like for REAL?  THIS is how you build atmosphere?  And Zodd is just a guy just going 'groar!' ?

All the colors and backgrounds were great, up til the Eclipse at least. 

I found it completely bizzarre that they ended the thing by ripping off the anime's ending.  I mean that..  that isn't in the books at all; like at ALL. 

To clarify; the manga also ends with Guts walking away but the tone and lead-up are completely different.  The anime and movie both end with a shot of Godo's furnace and Guts taking the DS and leaving without a word.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on September 13, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
Good summary, Lithrael. The usage of CGI, while not as obtrusive as the previous two movies, is still as visually jarring as before. In the rare event the movie did establish a scene, it would usually be ruined by another awkward segue to a cel-shaded puppet, and back again. I really wish they had just chosen one animation style or the other. All I'm asking for is a little consistency here, people. Maybe it would've worked for another anime, but this style doesn't suit Berserk at all.

Also, interesting that you've mentioned the voice-acting. I haven't heard a lot of opinions regarding the new seiyuu cast, aside from the odd mention here and there. Now I'm not well-versed in Japanese, so I can't give an informed opinion, but I would say that when compared to the original anime cast, there's a distinct lack of 'character' to these new voices.  Guts, Griffith, Casca, Zodd, Corkus, Void, etc. all had really recognizable voices that you could immediately identify with the characters. Overall, the movie cast falls somewhat flat by comparison. However, I didn't miss Nobutoshi Canna as Guts too much. When I first heard his voice in the anime it was unfamiliar, and while it has grown on me over time, he never really matched the Guts in my head. That's just like, my opinion, man (before you grab the pitchforks).  The new guy, on the other hand, had the right tone, and captured all the gnarly aggression quite well.  Although we haven't heard him as the Black Swordsman yet, so there's still another dimension of his acting we need to see before we can make a complete judgement. If we ever do, that is.  And I'm glad they recast Casca, because Yuko Miyamura was far too shrill for my liking. She hurt my frickin' ears on more than one occasion during the TV show.

Akio Ohtsuka as Skull Knight? Yeaaaah, that was cool, I guess. Akio Ohtsuka is always boss in whatever role, although I think I might have preferred a more obscure casting choice, and I'm aware that kind of contradicts my original point above. It's just that I've heard Akio Ohtsuka in so much that I've come to associate his voice with a bazillion other roles before Skully. Recasting Griffith from Toshiyuki Morikawa to Takahiro Sakurai was an odd  choice. I know both of them are typecast for voicing shifty bishounen, and Sakurai is a solid performer, but Morikawa has a richness and depth to his voice that made him perfect for the role. There's a reason why Morikawa voices Sephiroth and Sakurai has Cloud, y'know

Oddly enough, I think the one voice I missed the most was Corkus'. Tomohiro Nishimura is one of my favourite "B-list" seiyuu and his level of pitch, along that heavy Kansai dialect, had all the right elements for Corkus' overblown cynicism and comic relief.  The new voice doesn't come close to hitting the same notes and is completely forgettable.
 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lithrael on September 16, 2013, 05:03:31 PM
Agreed 100% about Carcus.  Especially if you're going to cut him down so much, you really need the voice acting to pop or it'll be like he's not even there.   :judo:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on September 16, 2013, 05:16:42 PM
Agreed 100% about Carcus.  Especially if you're going to cut him down so much, you really need the voice acting to pop or it'll be like he's not even there.   :judo:

Then again, were any of the Falcon's lieutenants really there outside of Guts and Casca? They're barely a step above "nameless_sergeant_07".
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lithrael on September 16, 2013, 07:01:45 PM
Then again, were any of the Falcon's lieutenants really there outside of Guts and Casca? They're barely a step above "nameless_sergeant_07".

Yeah.  Even so, leaving out that moment with Gaston during the eclipse felt like a punch to the gut, worse than anything else the movies did wrong.  Of course they've been ignoring characters left, right and center the whole time, but in that moment, it was like the movie was actually yelling at me that it didn't care about any of these guys.  The other mistakes left me going 'ugh, geez' or 'wtf' or 'why did they ruin that' but when Guts finds Gaston already dead I was..  I dunno, personally offended.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on September 16, 2013, 07:27:39 PM
The other mistakes left me going 'ugh, geez' or 'wtf' or 'why did they ruin that' but when Guts finds Gaston already dead I was..  I dunno, personally offended.

Heh, actually to me if anything it's funny that you only were when it came to that. I was offended so long ago I can't remember when it started.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: RyoGTO on November 22, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
I practice non-violence; however, at times, while watching I felt an overwhelming urge to punch or strangle the creators of this movie travesty.

Heh, actually to me if anything it's funny that you only were when it came to that. I was offended so long ago I can't remember when it started.
^this

I wanted so bad to like it. Really. At times, when a really treasured scene was coming up, I'd be thinking, "YES, YEESS" but, when it came on (or was omitted!) I would be thinking, "NO!... NO, WTF! YOU IDIOTS!"

Bottom line, I wish I never saw it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on March 25, 2014, 07:52:38 PM
Best excuse I've heard for Guts almost overpowering Femto is that "Femto had just been born and was new to his powers."  :schierke:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gummyskull on March 31, 2014, 08:08:58 AM
1/10

It's been several months since I first watched and I'm still personally offended by the thought of it. :magni: I don't really know what I expected after the first two, but wow, even my lowest expectations were not met. It's already been ripped apart and scrutinized by pretty much everybody, but I'll add 3 of the biggest offenses:

1) Guts and Casca's Love scene. Completely lacked the emotional intimacy and character development of it's manga counterpart, and within the context of the move it seemed very sudden to me. Speaking of sudden I'm glad the movie let us know that Guts is a minute man.

2) The Eclipse. Where do I start? Guts just standing there like an idiot as Casca is being molested? Guts nearly striking Femto? Casca reciprocating Femto's kiss and not sounding at all like she is in agony? Actually that is more upsetting than anything because I really don't want to see more garbage about how she actually liked it.  Also, the music that played as Casca was being lowered made me laugh. Great job guys. :troll:

3) I had something else in mind but at this point I can't remember what it was, so screw it, the whole rest of the movie was bad. Just bad.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on March 31, 2014, 03:10:11 PM
I was really holding out hope that the events of the eclipse would at least be great and maybe salvage my respect for this project since it is such a big thing in the berserk story but nope I was completely let down.

I am getting annoyed with this projects tendency to change things it seems just for the sake of changing something. They are not even good changes. Why actually show Corkus getting his head bitten off? What was so "holy shit" about Corkus's death is that it is implied, when the POV switches from his perception of a sexy naked woman to the audience of what he is really burying his face in. Casca does not go down fighting? Really? She gets put in a catatonic state for the rest of the series and they do not even give her, her last moments of  lucidity and capability before she loses it all? What was the point of that?
 
The eclipse started out slightly good I was hopeful because of how the eclipse looked, unlike some I liked how it started off blue and then went red. But as soon as it all got rolling it was one major disappointment after another. The CGI apostles didn't look as good as I thought it would and the God Hand looked weird. Were they hand drawn or CGI?

And what is it with this films preoccupation with showing every female's bush? Casca, Slan, even that  female apostle that killed Corkus...The film even had a "yeah we are rated R" shot of Slan playing with her boobs.  :magni:

And then the scene where Guts does not get pinned down before Griffith molests Casca. OMG...of all the times the film made Guts look like a dimwitted asshole...this took the cake! He fucking stands there longer then it would take an idiot to figure out what Griffith is doing, and Griffith even has time to switch from fondling her breast to fingering her before Guts actually realizes what's going on. And when he does it comes off more like:  "h-hey! You-you're touching her! YOU'RE TOUCHING HER! STOP IT GRIFFITH!" His reaction was completely cheap and almost comical. It took everything away from that scene.

And Casca...I was always  in the group of people who thought she enjoyed it, but the manga and old anime series at least was depicted to have reasonable doubt. Here it was completely erotic and it is obvious she is getting off.



Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on March 31, 2014, 05:27:07 PM
the God Hand looked weird. Were they hand drawn or CGI?

Depends on the shot. There's definitely a lot of 3D though.

And what is it with this films preoccupation with showing every female's bush? Casca, Slan, even that  female apostle that killed Corkus...The film even had a "yeah we are rated R" shot of Slan playing with her boobs.  :magni:

It comes with their bombastic approach to everything: they could do it, so why not? "So intense! So cool!" Only not really.

And Casca...I was always  in the group of people who thought she enjoyed it

Blood and tears, the tell-tale signs of enjoyment.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on April 02, 2014, 05:59:42 PM
there wasn't even any blood or a lot of  tears when Femeto took Casca in the movie, that was my point. I do not even recall if Casca said "no" or "stop" or "don't look" even once during the whole rape scene in the movie like she did in the manga. She does look like she is activly getting into it in the movie and she is making these little excited noises the whole time. That was my point. You could almost get the impression that she enjoyed Femeto better then she enjoyed Guts with the way it is framed in the movie.

Everything involving Casca and Griffith interactions is just off in this movie.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on April 02, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
there wasn't even any blood or a lot of  tears when Femeto took Casca in the movie, that was my point. I do not even recall if Casca said "no" or "stop" or "don't look" even once during the whole rape scene in the movie like she did in the manga.

Well, you were talking about the manga as well as the movies and the TV series in your previous post, which is why I replied. There was blood and tears in the manga, and that's really all that matters.

Everything involving Casca and Griffith interactions is just off in this movie.

Let me go further: everything is off in this movie. :puck:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on April 02, 2014, 06:26:43 PM
I'm sorry I misunderstood you when I read your post. I do have my reasons for believing the way that I do but this is probably not the right context to get into it. At any rate I was offended by how erotic the depiction of the rape was in the movie even compared to the manga or anime series.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on April 02, 2014, 06:32:37 PM
I'm sorry I misunderstood you when I read your post.

No problem. And yeah, not the right context. I've written long posts about it in the past, so feel free to search for them if you ever feel like changing your views on the subject.

At any rate I was offended by how erotic the depiction of the rape was in the movie even compared to the manga or anime series.

We can agree on that. It's revulsing.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Patou244 on April 04, 2014, 07:53:58 PM
The eclipse in this movie was disgusting. I was so angry over how Casca's "rape" was handled, like others have said it looked erotic and that offended me most of all. None of ther anguish that Casca goes through is even present during the rape and she is moaning the whle time. WTF? I really want to know what kind of direction the voice actress for Casca was given during the recording session for that scene. Was she told by the voice over director to sound like she was excitied and make those little sounds? This makes me worry what kind of impression the creative developemnt staff had during that scene in the manga. Did it come across as she was enjoying it or erotic in the manga? Did they bounce any of these details off of Miura while doing this scene. How how much say did Miura had for this project?

Casca in even has a scene where she looks at Guts and almost looks like she is smiling a little bit when she tells him to look away:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhzl6O5l46OqqGv58q1rGOr3mdi8tjL_wE_tWL4x-7zNWqMmEo)

look she is fucking blushing here. She does not look at all like she is in anguish. ANd when she tells him to look away she sounds like she is orgasming. I was so pissed off with how this played.

This movie tottally fucked up this whole thing.The movie even did something else that changed the perspective of the rape, when Casca looks up at Griffith and says his name the movie frames it that she has a little image of Griffith restored to his former glory for brief moment before he kisses her. It is small but it makes Casca come off like she is aware it is Griffith and she is admiring him right before he kisses her instead of being exausted and dazed in the manga and the anime series. It gives off the impression that she is willingly accepting his kiss because...she is glad he is him again...or something. I know maybe I am making more out of this then I should but that is the sick impression I got from the scene.

 I can only imagine all the Casca enjoyed it people are going to have more fuel to work with now.

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Mammon on April 04, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
(I didn't know in which of the 3 movies threads I should post this, I started it in the Capture of Doldrey thread, but then I started writing about the other movies as well, so I figured I should put it in the 3rd one, in the very unlikely event that somebody who watched only the first 2 movies and wouldn't want to be spoiled for the third, would be reading the thread)

I really disliked Descent, it might be the worst out of the 3...
 I'll try to give my global point of view, but forgive me if my English is awkward, Frenchie here...

I discovered the manga about 10 years ago (I was 16), and watched/bought the anime later, like 2 or 3 years after buying all the volumes that were out.
Just a small precision, because usually for Berserk it's the other way around, and most of my friends started with the anime and then picked up the manga.
I've never been a huge fan of the anime, maybe because I don't have the nostalgia factor of discovering Berserk that way; mostly bought the DVD compilation because I collect anime, and to add my modest small stone to support Miura.  :griffnotevil:
So when they announced some new movies I was very excited, and thought "sweet, finally maybe the adaptation that my favorite manga deserves!"

When the first movie came out I was so enthusiastic that I even bought the french "collector" DVD edition -
Which is already a complete, cheap disappointment in itself by the way - before even watching the film. Dead giveaway in retrospective.

The big box is empty save for a cheap plastic Beherit necklace -just the small Beherit, not even something to pass around your neck-, what I thought was some kind of small poster (nice!  :troll: ), and ended up being a publicity flyer for the studio that released the DVD (yay...   :schierke: ), and 2 DVDs
- one for the movie (in french, and jap+french subtitles)
- and the other... just for the second movie's trailer.
Oh, and 2 interviews, like 5 min long each, of the actors dubbing Guts and Casca's voices. 
They seem nice and all but they don't know anything about the manga (to their credit they do admit that they never read it, but why interview them then?) and just speculate and rant... nothing interesting at all. They might as well have had interviewed some random people in the street... it really puzzles me, why did they ask people who don't know anything about Berserk their opinion about it?

A single DVD for a short trailer and a couple of cheap "bonus exclusive actors interviews!!11" ; did they really have to use 2 DVDs, or did they want the box to look more stacked? :youcanthandlethetruth!!!:

Anyway, since I collect everything related to Berserk (and all my favorite manga/anime) and I'm always looking to support Miura, I bought the first movie, was disappointed but thought, "Ok, they have 2 other movies to redeem themselves, I still want to believe!".

The first movie still embarrassed me, because (for the anecdote) my girlfriend, who is not into manga/anime at all, actually asked me if we could watch it, because one of my tattoos is the "brand";
She saw it on the DVD box, and was curious about what could be so great about Berserk that I wanted to get a tattoo related to it.
At the university she also heard me talking about the manga with some friends who are also passionate about it, so yeah she was curious.
I was so embarrassed to watch it with her, because at the end of the first film, even if I told her before that it sucked compared to the
manga and even the old anime, I could tell she didn't get into the story and thought it was bad, and how could I blame her? I had to explain a lot of stuff, at least the anime, even if flawed in many ways, you didn't have to talk all the time to explain who is who and why this and that happened, etc.

Aaaanyway, sorry for the rant... so; I usually don't download anime, except when they didn't release it in English or French, but for the second and third movie I decided to watch them first before buying, still feeling ripped off after buying the infamous "collector box"...

I'm really glad I did, I watched the 2nd and 3rd movie in one sitting, was extremely disappointed, and will never purchase the DVDs.
I don't want to give my money to, and support people who destroyed my favorite manga, and will prevent me from watching a real, good adaptation for God knows how long...
I mean, if Studio 4°C didn't make those new movies, eventually another one could have bought the rights and most likely would have done a better job (how could you possibly screw up more than they did?).
But now, if another studio wants to give it a shot, it will be in a very very long time. If someone ever decide to make another adaptation after that complete failure...

To address some specific points:
What happened to Boscone?
In the manga, he appears after we have already met several apostles ("only" Zodd chronologically, but we, readers, already know others), and even if he is only human, he's still a very intimidating antagonist.
He has that aura of invincibility of a master of warfare, impressive Guts-like strength, and a bunch of other reasons that made almost all the Berserk enthusiasts like his character.

But in the movie he just looks like some random semi-boss, and isn't very different from "movie Adon", another character they  screwed up.

Even the way he dies is pathetic, I mean Guts throws a flag pole at him, "Oh noes!", cuts him in half, weird fountain of blood, done.
They had the opportunity to make sure that the "casual" public wouldn't forget about Zodd by sticking to the manga and have him help Guts out.
In that trilogy Zodd appears in the first film, then nothing in the second, and he re-appears fighting Skull Knight during the eclipse. The friends who watched it (and are anime fans, those ones just didn't read Berserk) were kinda confused when he re-appeared.

I still wonder why they changed the end of the Guts/Boscone fight, the real scene is so much better, and not that much longer, and it had the advantage of keeping Zodd around and have him in all 3 movies, why, why would they want to change that?

What a mess they did, I had the manga in my head while watching it so I could fill the blanks, fix the scenes/dialogues, etc, but my "anime enthusiast buddies" were lost.
Oh, and they all laughed during the sex scenes. They were so bad, between Charlotte who already starts to scream in ecstasy as soon as Griffith touches her boob, and then, how could I formulate it, the mechanical sex? Same thing for Guts/Casca, they make love like robots, I don't know how to explain in English sorry... Ubik can show you the rhythm though =>  :ubik:
Speaking about sex scenes, for my friends (the ones who didn't read the manga) there was no doubt in their mind that Casca enjoyed the "sex" with Femto ("Wait, really, it was a rape? Wow, I have the most awkward boner right now").

In the manga, Guts first time is such an important moment considering his past, but thinking about it... since they completely omitted his past in the movies, well it's really bad but since the context was even worst, it makes it sucks less.
I know, it doesn't make sense...

While writing this I realize that i'm preaching to the choir, that all of you love the manga and probably disliked the movie (but good for you if some of you liked them, at least some parts of the community enjoyed themselves), so I'm not even sure it's useful to develop all the other points;
Like how they erased any trace of humor, screwed up the ball, removed Gennon's creepiness/depravation (sp?) by having him taking a bath with happy-looking Griffth look-alike instead of hanging with a bunch of of sad kids, skipped Adon's comic/typical-manga-villain side, the shape of the characters mouth/lips  :puck: a minor one but for some reason it bothered me, especially for Guts.
Is it just me or is face very is different from the manga?
I read the 3 threads about the movies in this sections a few months ago, but don't remember reading anything about that. So about their mouths it's maybe just me... and so many other things, it will be quicker to list what I liked about the 3 movies:
It will be short. Compared to the old anime, I liked better:

- Silat. He is one of my favorite "minor" characters, and it was an improvement to see him and other Kushan (I remember counting 2 other Bakiraka with him) leading the soldiers attacking the Hawks, instead of the nameless guys from the anime.
Problem: He looked too much like a psychotic/evil villain, it looks/sounds like he can't wait to cut Casca's head...  he is more professional in the manga.
But at least I enjoyed his fights against Casca and Guts, nice little moment.

- The intro by Susumu Hirasawa is really badass, I didn't like the old anime intro; so there is also that...

- They kept the creepy gnome who tortures Griffith for a whole year from the manga, instead of switching him with a nameless random guy. Wow, I'm trying to list the "good" parts of the movies and it's one of the only things that come to my mind. What a shitty trilogy.

- The eclipse was flawed in many ways, but there was still some cool moments, like when the God Hand is introduced, especially Ubik  :ubik: 
And for some reason I kinda liked the "Ying-Yang" apostle who kills Judo, the way he moves, the sounds he makes...
And to be completely honest, while I don't understand why they changed it, I liked the way Void's shield worked in the movie, with SK's sword appearing behind him instead of in front of him.

But yeah I'm really trying hard to find some parts that didn't either pissed me off, made me laugh for the wrong reasons, or just made me wonder how a studio could have the idea to make some Berserk movies and being so clueless about it.
You would think that they were really big fans of the manga, how did they manage to f*ck up so badly?
I'm actually curious about it, did anyone from the movies crew made any comments about it? I remember reading (maybe even on this forum) that even in Japan, it was kind of a commercial failure.
I would be curious to know the reasons of this epic fail, maybe if they include some interviews from the actual directors instead of the French dubbers I'd buy the other DVDs  :troll:

Ok I'm finally done this time.
Cheers to all the members who keep this forum alive, it's really interesting to read you guys.

pre-edit: "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."
What the h- ...
Word, Patou. I only quickly addressed this point in my post, but they really did a disgusting job handling Casca's rape.

Mammon
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on April 04, 2014, 10:52:59 PM
This movie tottally fucked up this whole thing.The movie even did something else that changed the perspective of the rape, when Casca looks up at Griffith and says his name the movie frames it that she has a little image of Griffith restored to his former glory for brief moment before he kisses her. It is small but it makes Casca come off like she is aware it is Griffith and she is admiring him right before he kisses her instead of being exausted and dazed in the manga and the anime series. It gives off the impression that she is willingly accepting his kiss because...she is glad he is him again...or something. I know maybe I am making more out of this then I should but that is the sick impression I got from the scene.

I think it was meant to strike a contrast between the heroic Griffith who saved her in the past, and the demon who's about to rape her. I certainly don't think the intention was to eroticize Casca's ordeal. It's just that, with most things in these movies, the execution was badly mishandled to say the least.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on April 07, 2014, 10:48:16 PM
I think the whole rape scene, even in the manga is supposed to come across as unclear as to how  Casca is reacting to what is happening. I think Miura did that on purpose. Given Casca's past (or present) feelings for Griffith there is definitely big question marks on it. About half the fan base thinks she enjoyed it on some level, that could not have been a coincidence.

What offended me about this movies depiction is that pretty much all doubt is gone about Casca's reaction to this when it is supposed to be unclear.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on April 07, 2014, 11:15:57 PM
I think the whole rape scene, even in the manga is supposed to come across as unclear as to how  Casca is reacting to what is happening. I think Miura did that on purpose. Given Casca's past (or present) feelings for Griffith there is definitely big question marks on it.
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About half the fan base thinks she enjoyed it on some level, that could not have been a coincidence.

That's quite a generalization. Where are these supporters? And what is their reasoning for that conclusion? The fact that some readers don't catch key elements is no proof of anything. It happens in every volume. In almost every episode. Correcting these misunderstandings is one of the fundamental reasons that this site is still around. But this particular one baffles me.

Are you saying Casca wasn't raped? Please stop the bullshit train right here. Sure, the Griffith-Casca-Guts triangle is complicated (actually, allegiances were more clear at this stage of the series--she pitied Griffith), but she's confused at first. As she's being groped while waking up, she utters Griffith's name. But then she realizes what's happening, and she has a look of terror. Tears in her eyes, saying No, No, No, then telling Guts not to watch, thrown to the ground afterward like a chew toy--the ordeal shattered her mind and caused her to fear being touched by men. I guess she just liked it THAT MUCH, huh? This line of reasoning transforms what should be one of the most grueling scenes in the series into a love scene. How do you rationalize that? If you'd prefer to disregard all of these obvious narrative and visual clues that it wasn't a consensual affair, and want to bring the word "moisture" into the conversation, then I would point you in the direction of any number of articles on female physiology and sexual response during rape scenarios. It's sure to be light, sunny reading for "half the fan  base."

While we're here, maybe Guts liked his night with Donovan, on some level? Sure he was held against his will, and the ordeal made him pull back from people and fear being touched (hey wait, this sounds familiar!), but Guts ultimately shot him in the mouth with a crossbow, and that's an utterly phallic form of killing someone--I'm detecting clear undertones here, people!
 
Can I stop? Are we done? Is this nightmare over yet?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Mammon on April 08, 2014, 03:36:17 AM
While we're here, maybe Guts liked his night with Donovan, on some level? Sure he was held against his will, and the ordeal made him pull back from people and fear being touched (hey wait, this sounds familiar!), but Guts ultimately shot him in the mouth with a crossbow, and that's an utterly phallic form of killing someone--I'm detecting clear undertones here, people!

I think I laughed way too hard at this...  :farnese:

But yeah
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About half the fan base thinks she enjoyed it on some level, that could not have been a coincidence.
A big number (half is generous) of manga enthusiasts (or people in general) love retarded theories. But even so, I didn't meet that many Berserk fans who thought she enjoyed the rape.

I think I discovered this interesting theory on this forum actually, always in old, closed threads, always spouted by guys who were then raped in turn by the admins, until they admitted they were wrong and/or left the forum. 

It just doesn't make sense. Casca's feelings are obviously complicated about Guts and Griffith, but that doesn't automatically means she enjoyed being brutally raped by Femto in front of hundreds of apostles; and Guts being restrained, her true love.
After all her friends have been killed in horrible ways because of the guy who is raping her...

No way.



Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Tama on April 08, 2014, 05:01:24 AM
One thing that really bugged me during the eclipse was the music they used. To me it didn't fit well and didn't add any tension or nail biting anticipation. I remember when my friend and I watched the tv show for the first time and the haunting sound tracks they use for the last two episodes like 'murder' and the Beherit theme are so well done. I don't mind other musicians trying their musical take on the world of Berserk, but please use something more appropriate next time and not phoned in.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on April 08, 2014, 07:04:05 AM
I think the whole rape scene, even in the manga is supposed to come across as unclear

Blood and tears, the tell-tale signs of enjoyment. Extreme psychological trauma, the hallmark of a having had a good time!

Given Casca's past (or present) feelings for Griffith

Casca has no present feelings for "Griffith", nor for anyone really. She's in a regressed state of mind, remember? You're confused because of her reaction to her son (which she perceives inside Griffith) in volume 22, I imagine. Same old story.

About half the fan base thinks she enjoyed it on some level

Please don't invent statistics.

One thing that really bugged me during the eclipse was the music they used. To me it didn't fit well and didn't add any tension or nail biting anticipation. I remember when my friend and I watched the tv show for the first time and the haunting sound tracks they use for the last two episodes like 'murder' and the Beherit theme are so well done. I don't mind other musicians trying their musical take on the world of Berserk, but please use something more appropriate next time and not phoned in.

Yeah, music was mostly misused throughout those movies, and it was particularly bad then.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Deci on April 08, 2014, 10:07:55 AM
"Enjoying it on some level" is a really stupid combination of words to use when talking about rape. That's the whole point of rape, to force someone to feel something sexual they do not want to feel. What's more horrifying than people thinking Casca "wanted it", is the thought that these people clearly do not understand what rape is.

It has nothing to do with Casca's feelings for Griffith on any level. She did not want to be raped on any level, regardless of any feelings (which solely belong to Guts at this point in the story).

I think I'm going to pretend these people just don't think before they speak, and they actually understand this.

....................


BACK TO THE THREAD:

Decided to pre-order the movie in English, having already own it in Japanese. Miura gets some of the money I suppose... I dunno why I really, that's just the rationalization I go with. I suppose I can lend it out after someone has at least watched the 1997 TV series first. Having the power to have it and withhold it is satisfying on some level.  :femto:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Patou244 on April 15, 2014, 08:38:08 PM

Are you saying Casca wasn't raped? Please stop the bullshit train right here. Sure, the Griffith-Casca-Guts triangle is complicated (actually, allegiances were more clear at this stage of the series--she pitied Griffith), but she's confused at first. As she's being groped while waking up, she utters Griffith's name. But then she realizes what's happening, and she has a look of terror. Tears in her eyes, saying No, No, No, then telling Guts not to watch, thrown to the ground afterward like a chew toy--the ordeal shattered her mind and caused her to fear being touched by men. I guess she just liked it THAT MUCH, huh? This line of reasoning transforms what should be one of the most grueling scenes in the series into a love scene. How do you rationalize that? If you'd prefer to disregard all of these obvious narrative and visual clues that it wasn't a consensual affair, and want to bring the word "moisture" into the conversation, then I would point you in the direction of any number of articles on female physiology and sexual response during rape scenarios. It's sure to be light, sunny reading for "half the fan  base."

While we're here, maybe Guts liked his night with Donovan, on some level? Sure he was held against his will, and the ordeal made him pull back from people and fear being touched (hey wait, this sounds familiar!), but Guts ultimately shot him in the mouth with a crossbow, and that's an utterly phallic form of killing someone--I'm detecting clear undertones here, people

reading this makes me feel really good. I was seriously beginning to think that there were not anyone out there that believed  Casca was truamatized and genuanly a victim during the eclipse. It is nice to read a defence for Casca that is based in logic and facts. Some fans either completely misinterpret this scene or they go off on emotional biased rants on how "Casca was no innocent victim" during the rape. Is it fair to call it a rape then if she was participating in it as actively as some fans claim she was? Most people get hung over on the fact that Casca had deep feelings for Griffith and that she had chosen to stay with Griffith instead of going away with Guts right before the eclipse happened as one of the many reasons they beleive she "enjoyed it." How does that make sense? But it amazes me how some fans drive this fact so hard as evidense that she did.

I swear to God on one message board I was on once I actually saw someone claim that her going insane doesn't prove that she didn't enjoy it. Their reasoning? She could have enjoyed it and then lost her mind out of shame of enjoying it in front of Guts...really? :schierke:

I'm sorry to say this but I suspect that the ones who insist so hard that "Casca enjoyed it" might have got off on the rape scene imagery in the manga themselves and are just projecting that onto the character...the things I've read from some of the more perverted fans out there on the "rape scenes" in the manga is pretty out there. And the female fans who insisit she enjoyed it I suspect they just don't like Casca the character to begin with and they just want a more substantial reason to be biased against her. 

All I want is for Casca to get healed so all this "she enjoyed it" speculation can finally stop. But after this movie and the craptastic way they portayed it I can only imagine they are going to have more fuel to work with. Walter is right, Something that should have been a scene made up of pure horror for Casca is trivilzed by this way of line of thinking...and this movie did not help it.

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Casca has no present feelings (...) for anyone really

except her child. And she relies on Farnese.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Jaze1618 on May 12, 2014, 08:03:42 PM
Saw this movie with a friend last night. The good news is he wants to read the books again, after previously getting burned out on them around volume 9 about a year ago.

I'll preface with an admission that I don't know what a good animated adaptation of the eclipse would look like, but I didn't much care for what was shown in this movie. I didn't like the way the apostles moved or the weight they appeared to move with. In my mind when reading the manga, I imagined the action sequences with Guts vs. the Apostles to be lot more frantic and frenzied than what this movie portrayed.

As others have already said in this thread, the Femto Casca scene is very difficult to watch. I don't know that I would say that they embellished the scene and made it longer than it should have been, but seeing content like that animated, was extremely uncomfortable and for that reason alone I much prefer the manga version. I think depending on how you look at it, the animators did a good job here.

I agree with some of the comments mentioned in the scathing reviews, Guts took way too long to jump to Casca's defense, and Griffith's vindictive look at Guts when chanting "I sacrifice" is someone from the production team projecting their own stance on what was better left as an ambivalent moment in the Manga.

This might be my least favorite movie of the series, I felt that the eclipse came off as a little cheap or cheesy, and really doesn't pack the same wallop of intensity that I believe that event deserves.

Also, the escape from the Castle after rescuing Griffith felt lame in comparison to what is covered in the Manga. I feel that the inclusion of Wyald would have made this movie a lot better for me.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Mangetsu on May 14, 2014, 12:54:41 PM
ANN's Review http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/berserk/the-golden-age-arc-iii/blu-ray-the-advent
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on May 14, 2014, 03:02:11 PM
ANN's Review http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/berserk/the-golden-age-arc-iii/blu-ray-the-advent
So...he says the original anime was a masterpiece? (After the way the movies handled the material you might be able to make a case for that :troll:) That's a bit gratuitous.

And he concludes that there is no reason why the trilogy should exist, but then gives it a B-/C+? Am I reading that right? What??
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on May 14, 2014, 03:19:42 PM
It's not surprising to find the original anime basking in a newfound light, now that it's sitting next to a fresh pile of turds. But indeed, calling it a "masterpiece" is an indication of lost perspective.

he concludes that there is no reason why the trilogy should exist, but then gives it a B-/C+? Am I reading that right? What??

I'm guessing that's low for their norm. It's like game review sites, which use a 100 point scale, but rarely use more than 50% of it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on May 14, 2014, 04:03:18 PM
he really exaggerated with his opinion about the original anime imo

While I'd draw the line at 'masterpiece', I think the '97 anime is a great entry point for new fans and stands on its own quite well. In a way, I'm glad they decided to downplay the supernatural elements of the manga and focus solely on the human drama, because it made the Eclipse a far more surreal and gut-punching plot twist.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on May 14, 2014, 04:34:48 PM
In a way, I'm glad they decided to downplay the supernatural elements of the manga and focus solely on the human drama, because it made the Eclipse a far more surreal and gut-punching plot twist.

The anime handled the Eclipse better than the manga...?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on May 14, 2014, 05:27:49 PM
ANN's Review http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/berserk/the-golden-age-arc-iii/blu-ray-the-advent

Maybe it's because I'm so familiar with the work but I think the reviewer tends to exaggerate the importance of the Eclipse in the manga, which in my opinion betrays a lack of familiarity with it. And he's seriously deluded about the TV series too, attributing it merits ("rich, complex relations; cannily interwoven feelings; perfectly sculpted personalities; delicately spun character threads") that lie solely with the manga. But like the others said, when compared to those movies it certainly does shine bright. Anyway that doesn't really matter, the bottom-line is that this movie sucks, which is hardly new.

I think the '97 anime is a great entry point for new fans and stands on its own quite well. In a way, I'm glad they decided to downplay the supernatural elements of the manga and focus solely on the human drama, because it made the Eclipse a far more surreal and gut-punching plot twist.

A good entry point? Sure, though it might have gotten a bit old for the average viewer by now. However, those omissions you praise for making the Eclipse more confounding also result in making the story less coherent. A "surprise, they all die!" plot twist cheapens a storyline when it isn't rationally anchored in it, and I believe it's what the TV series' changes leaned towards. In the manga, the Eclipse is a slow inevitability that the reader dreads all the more because (s)he knows it's coming, even though (s)he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen. That foreknowledge doesn't diminish the gut-wrenching feeling of the event, and I think it even reinforces it in a way.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on May 14, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
The anime handled the Eclipse better than the manga...?

Why does it have to be either-or?

I don't think the '97 anime lacks coherence. It's not like the concept of demons and occultism comes completely out of left-field in the anime, whereas in the manga we'd already seen Casca having a near-rape experience and the Falcons getting butchered at the hands of Wyald, let alone all the horror of the Black Swordsman arc before it. I don't think the anime version would have had quite the same psychological impact on me with prior knowledge of those events. That's just me, though.

My only gripe with the '97 anime is leaving out Guts childhood trauma, but I'm sure the censors probably had a hand in keeping the child-rape out of the show. Most of the character development remains intact. As for the 'King Griffith' BS, that's small potatoes when the series is almost entirely rooted in the Golden Age. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on May 15, 2014, 01:13:06 AM
I don't think the '97 anime lacks coherence.

Well, for one I think ending it the way they did was a bold, but ultimately detrimental decision. And it lacks coherence for anyone unfamiliar with the manga.

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It's not like the concept of demons and occultism comes completely out of left-field in the anime, whereas in the manga we'd already seen Casca having a near-rape experience and the Falcons getting butchered at the hands of Wyald, let alone all the horror of the Black Swordsman arc before it.

The first part of your sentence doesn't agree with the rest (whereas...?) but I get your meaning. I think you're leaving a lot on the table in terms of the layers of suspense Miura cooked into the Golden Age. You should honestly go back and re-examine these early volumes through the eyes of a new reader, knowing everything we know from Volumes 1-3. It's something most people take for granted, since most of us discovered the series through the anime. Anyway, this is what we've been attempting to do in our podcast re-reads, in addition to giving broad analysis.

Miura does some clever, subtle things that I've only recently come to recognize through these re-reads. Consider just this small example: Griffith is first properly introduced in the Golden Age by only showing his helmet--the helmet that has an entirely different meaning to new readers. Of course, we already know his identity, but there's something sinister about these first few portrayals in the manga that's absent from the anime (apart from whatever anyone new could glean from Guts' otherwise inexplicable "GRIFFFIITTTHHHHHH" in episode 1).

Having the full knowledge of what a sacrifice is, how a Beherit works, that there's a grand design to everything, and what Griffith ultimately becomes -- all of these things instill a creeping dread into every major scene of the Golden Age. As high as they climb, you know where it's headed. Consider the implications of the Bonfire of Dreams, knowing how close Griffith is to each of those men, and how his dream supplanted theirs, again, knowing _exactly_ where it's headed. Consider them going back into Wyndham, down into the darkness of that jail cell to valiantly rescue their leader, knowing what's ahead, and how they'll soon be repaid. There are also some small things as well. Readers who spent more time with Guts in Volumes 1-3 probably assume that Casca died as a sacrifice, so her survival has added meaning when it's finally revealed. Another small side rumination during these volumes: exactly how Guts lost his arm/eye (Miura actually teases this one a few times, namely in Volume 8, with Carcus saying losing a limb would knock some sense into Guts). All these things, cast by the wayside in favor of the anime's method of pulling the rug from under the viewer in the final two episodes.

There's an entire layer of depth to these scenes told through subtext that the anime simply discards.

Also, you mention the "near-rape" of Casca, but the true terror of Wyald's intervention is that it quantifies just how desperate the Eclipse is, as soon as it begins. Taking down Wyald brought Guts near death. Think that was rough? Well here, chew on a few hundred of those guys.

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I don't think the anime version would have had quite the same psychological impact on me with prior knowledge of those events. That's just me, though.

Again I think you're underselling how the tone of the Golden Age is altered with the foreknowledge of what's ahead. It's a far more layered experience. Anyway, "psychological impact"...? Were you comatose and drooling after watching the episodes? Did they give you night terrors?

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My only gripe with the '97 anime is leaving out Guts childhood trauma, but I'm sure the censors probably had a hand in keeping the child-rape out of the show. Most of the character development remains intact. As for the 'King Griffith' BS, that's small potatoes when the series is almost entirely rooted in the Golden Age.

I think that's a pretty arbitrary rationalization -- nevermind the complete lack of a true ending -- but to each their own.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Jaze1618 on May 15, 2014, 02:41:07 AM
Well said. I agree with every point.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Doc on May 16, 2014, 12:10:09 PM
Walter, I don't want to turn this into an anime vs. manga debate, since that seems to be the way it's leaning. You won't find any argument from me that the manga is a much richer and layered experience than the anime. Of course it is. However, I have no regrets in having watched the anime first or the approach that its staff took. Berserk is an epic story, in the truest sense of the word. Some 200+ pages comprise an average tankobon. Therefore any adaptation is going to run into time and budget constraints when trying to portray the series as faithfully as possible. They're left with two choices: either adapt the whole thing and omit major scenes, or adapt half of it scene-for-scene. I felt the '97 anime did the latter. Not flawlessly, granted, but it was true to the characters. It preferred to focus on the humanity of the manga as a grounded war story told on the front lines, while at the same time not completely forgoing its fantasy elements. If you've read the manga first, then the anime loses its dramatic impact. While surely you have everything to gain vice-versa?

Also, what part about the Eclipse being a veritable mindfuck do you disagree with? Or do I just not get your sense of humour?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on May 16, 2014, 02:23:02 PM
Walter, I don't want to turn this into an anime vs. manga debate, since that seems to be the way it's leaning. You won't find any argument from me that the manga is a much richer and layered experience than the anime. Of course it is.

My reply was aimed primarily at this line from you: "[the anime] made the Eclipse a far more surreal and gut-punching plot twist." Hence my long lecture about how I think the suspense built into the manga's depiction of it is more terrifying than the anime's. Which now you're apparently agreeing with?

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Also, what part about the Eclipse being a veritable mindfuck do you disagree with? Or do I just not get your sense of humour?

I was merely making fun of your choice of hyperbolic wording. A near-death experience leaves a psychological impact. Watching an anime episode doesn't, unless you have some severe issues confusing reality with fantasy.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hot Chic on May 16, 2014, 08:33:46 PM
Hi I'm Hot Chic thankyou for allowing me to become a memeber of this community, this is very first post on this forum.

I really have got to say that I have only been aware of Berserk for about four or five months and I got my introduction to Berserk through these movies, I have since then started watching the anime and reading the manga. I am about half way through the manga at this point and I will say that both are almost gross misrepresentations of the source material (but I enjoyed them both for their own merits), however when I was still new to Berserk and the movies were my only exposure I liked it and it captured my attention. the things that the veteren fans on here say the movies screwed up I was able to picvk up on for the most part. It at least made me want to look into the anime. But I will say one thing in regards to this movie that I have seen alot of people complain about is the rape scene of Casca and how it was supposedly eroticized in the movie. Maybe it is because the movie's version of the rape was my only version I was given at the time but I did not get the impression she was enjoying it. May it is up for interpertation but I did not get "oh yeah, I am getting off over here!"

I found this rape scene to be distubing and violent then erotic... probably because I was watching the scene without any prior reading of the manga. You have to understand, I was going into these movies blind, without ANY prior experience. And let me tell you when I first witnessed this sceneI was horrified...never did "erotic" or Casca possiably enjoying it enter my mind

If you saw eroticism and enjoyment in what was happening, that's your perspective. But with the constant shots between Griffith and Guts staring at each other, I saw horror, betrayal, contempt, rage and anguish....and this was my first viewing of this scene as a complete newbie to Berserk...and that is my two cents.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lithrael on May 16, 2014, 10:40:16 PM
Thanks for sharing your point of view.  It is, as always, tough for those of us who are crazy familiar with all of this, to correctly guess how it looks to fresh eyes.  And welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Patou244 on May 17, 2014, 04:51:22 PM
I think the 97 anime should have had it's own ending, it was already it's own self contained story by the end of it's run what with all the changes it made through out it's adaption. I think it would have worked better that way instead of being a glorified trailer for the manga.

ALso Hot Chic I am glad that as completely unbiased new viewer of these movies that you saw "rape" and not eroticism during that scene. Have read the manga version of the eclipse yet? How does it hold up to the manga?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hot Chic on May 19, 2014, 10:43:02 PM
I had a hard time reading the manga rape scene, it is not erotic but it is disturbing and graphic as hell. I could not beleive how involved it is in the manga, I did notice however that Casca does say "no" and "stop" and "don't look" more often in the manga through out the rape scene and she is clearly crying in it...why do people say she enjoyed it again?  Also...the anime movie made it seem like it happened quickly, the manga seems agonizingly slow about it. maybe it is the still pictures vs the moving frames in the movie but it seemed like it the movie was pretty quick about. Actually I have to question if it was really necessary for Miura to go into that much graphic detail.

I actually hid my volume with the eclipse episodes. I do not want anyone to come by them and thumb through them anbd see what is in there. The whole thing was like something out of a tentacle hentia manga.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Jaze1618 on May 19, 2014, 10:59:47 PM
Also...the anime movie made it seem like it happened quickly, the manga seems agonizingly slow about it. maybe it is the still pictures vs the moving frames in the movie but it seemed like it the movie was pretty quick about. Actually I have to question if it was really necessary for Miura to go into that much graphic detail.

Wow, I find it really interesting that you thought it went more quickly in the Movie. I just watched the movie for the first time 2 weekends ago and I felt like it was much harder to watch then read, and that the scene in the movie felt 3x longer than what was in the manga.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on May 20, 2014, 01:15:28 AM
I had a hard time reading the manga rape scene

I'd be concerned if you had an easy time with it.

Quote
I did notice however that Casca does say "no" and "stop" and "don't look" more often in the manga through out the rape scene and she is clearly crying in it...why do people say she enjoyed it again?

Because they're fucking idiots..? And who are these people, again?

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Actually I have to question if it was really necessary for Miura to go into that much graphic detail. I actually hid my volume with the eclipse chapters. I do not want anyone to come by them and thumb through them anbd see what is in there. The whole thing was like something out of a tentacle hentia manga.

The difference, of course, being that the scene isn't meant to titillate. It's supposed to be an excruciating experience. Sounds like it had the intended effect?
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Gummyskull on May 20, 2014, 02:05:50 AM
The movie made the scene more similar to a hentai in my opinion. It was excrutiating to watch, for the wrong reasons. It actually makes me nauseous thinking about how she was made to reciprocate the kiss and how the voice acting was handled. I'd rather be made to re-read the manga part 10 times than watch the movie's adaptation once.

Because they're fucking idiots..? And who are these people, again?
The same people who think that Berserk has turned into a "loli filled shonen manga" and only care about the violence and sex, AKA: fucking idiots.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on May 20, 2014, 02:23:10 AM
I could not beleive how involved it is in the manga, I did notice however that Casca does say "no" and "stop" and "don't look" more often in the manga through out the rape scene and she is clearly crying in it...why do people say she enjoyed it again?

I don't believe anyone on this site has said Casca enjoyed the rape from the manga, however, as Gummyskull has pointed out, in movie 3:

. . .how she was made to reciprocate the kiss. . .

Her reciprocation of Femto's kiss gives the implication that on some level, subconscious or otherwise, she wanted to kiss him back, despite the atrocity that was befalling her in that moment. This doesn't happen in the manga, it's a betrayal to the source material and an all around confusing direction.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on May 20, 2014, 11:25:45 AM
I had a hard time reading the manga rape scene, it is not erotic but it is disturbing and graphic as hell. [...] Actually I have to question if it was really necessary for Miura to go into that much graphic detail.

It's supposed to be an ordeal, both for the readers and the characters. And really, nothing too graphic is shown. The focus is on the characters' suffering.

The whole thing was like something out of a tentacle hentia manga.

Hardly so.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on May 29, 2014, 05:03:57 PM
Quote
why do people say she enjoyed it again?


I am one of the people that believed that she enjoyed from reading the manga but I always felt it was meant to be ambiguous on how she was reacting to it, I really thought that was Miura's intent with that scene and what he was going for. I'm sorry to say but that was my impression when I read this part. Though I kind of got rebuked for this on the last page, and admittedly Aaz and Walter gave some legitimate reasons why she did not  enjoy it. One reason I felt she enjoyed it was that Casca always loved Griffith and also because there were orbs of light surrounding her body and face through out the ore deal that I though indicated orgasm or some kind of emotional duality. There is ev en a panel toward the end of the scene where Casca looks up at Griffith and her lips look fuller and pouty.

I also wondered if these details where just guts perception of what was going on and that maybe deep down he thinks Casca reciprocated. The last thing Guts sees before blood covers his eye and he passes out is Griffith kissing Casca. I always wondered if Guts internalized this scene. I always thought it was unclear on purpose that Casca was kissing him back and that Guts perspective maybe he suspect she might have on a deep;y sub-conscience level. Then down the road Miura has Griffith confront Guts in the grave yard of swords and Guts takes note of how Casca reaches up to touch Griffith's face in volume 22. By the next volume Guts inner beast is starting to view Casca as an obstacle and resentment grows.



Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Patou244 on May 31, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
This is an argument that I hear alot of when people are trying to justify that she enjoyed and that she was kissing him Griffith back (not here mind you outside this community) and it is not taking Casca's mental and emotional state during these scenes into consideration. Something that some people always seem to miss is that Griffith forced Casca's mouth open and stuffed his tongue in her mouth.

(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y411/Passions55/forcedkiss1_zps258a83d2.jpg)

See, he has his finger in her mouth and is prying it open. Casca is crying and looks like her face is forcibly being turned in Griffith's direction.

(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y411/Passions55/forcedkiss2_zps0d1cf701.jpg)

Here Griffith his has his tongue in Casca's mouth and she is clearly not kissing him back, her tongue is not even being shown here just Griffith's and again look into Casca's eyes here, see the pain and shock in them? It would have gone a long way in portraying the true nature of this scene if the movie adaptation had shown these details of Griffith forcing his fingers in her mouth. I have not seen the movie since the first time I saw it but I do believe that it looks like Casca is kissing him back.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Lithrael on May 31, 2014, 12:16:50 PM
  and also because there were orbs of light surrounding her body and face through out the ore deal that I though indicated orgasm or some kind of emotional duality. There is ev en a panel toward the end of the scene where Casca looks up at Griffith and her lips look fuller and pouty.

I also wondered if these details where just guts perception of what was going on and that maybe deep down he thinks Casca reciprocated.

Not to belabor the point but I'll belabor the point anyways:  physical arousal sometimes takes place during rape.  These are the human body's autonomic reactions to stimuli.  Please do not confuse them with enjoyment.  Unless of course you want to run for office in the USA. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on May 31, 2014, 02:48:12 PM
One reason I felt she enjoyed it was that Casca always loved Griffith

She certainly didn't love him in that way by the time the rape took place. The story makes that quite clear.

There is ev en a panel toward the end of the scene where Casca looks up at Griffith and her lips look fuller and pouty.

I'm pretty sure that's your imagination.

I always thought it was unclear on purpose that Casca was kissing him back

I believe it's pretty clear that she doesn't reciprocate, see the images Patou244 posted for proof.

Guts takes note of how Casca reaches up to touch Griffith's face in volume 22.

That's a separate thing altogether, with Guts mistaking Casca's reaction because he doesn't know that their son's body was hijacked by Femto.

By the next volume Guts inner beast is starting to view Casca as an obstacle and resentment grows.

That's not connected to Casca's reaction to Griffith on the Hill of Swords. The Beast of Darkness is just angry because taking care of Casca means not pursuing revenge. Don't confuse the issue.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on May 31, 2014, 10:23:54 PM
Not to belabor the point but I'll belabor the point anyways:  physical arousal sometimes takes place during rape.  These are the human body's autonomic reactions to stimuli.


Indeed, it's a source for further psychological damage found in rape cases, such as heterosexual men who are sodomized. I imagine that's an incredibly difficult and horrifying thing to experience. Essentially your body betrays you. I can't even begin to imagine.

Please do not confuse them with enjoyment.  Unless of course you want to run for office in the USA.

:ganishka:
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Hot Chic on July 11, 2014, 07:45:55 PM
Quote
Because they're fucking idiots..? And who are these people, again?


um, in this very thread a few pages back there were complaints about how the rape scene was handeled in the movie and that it would cause more speculation that she enjoyed it. Some one on here even mentioned that they thought she had enjoyed it.

I recently rewatched this and I have to say, the hook up between Casca and Guts seemed so random. I guess I should say right now I am not a Guts and Casca relationship fan. I am not putting Casca down or anything but it sort of seemed forced that she swung over to Guts after being so hung up on Griffith. One minute she is bitching at him for ruining Griffith's life and even saying she regrets not being able to be his woman and then suddenly, because he stops her from killing herself, she wants to have sex with him? It just seemed like Casca decided she could not have Griffith so she settled for Guts in a weak emotional moment.

And Guts sudden passion for Casca seemed out of place as well.   :???:

I have seen some of you comment that it was better in the manga and that it is more intimate, and I have ask another question, is Guts supposed to be a virgin? When I read someone on here made some comment that he seemed awkward while making love to Casca and that he was a minute man, implying he is inexpereinced. I did not think that Guts was one, I mean the very first page of the first volume in the manga is Guts having sex. 



Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Rhombaad on July 11, 2014, 07:59:04 PM
I have seen some of you comment that it was better in the manga and that it is more intimate, and I have ask another question, is Guts supposed to be a virgin?

That scene is handled way, way, way better in the manga. It's implied that Guts is a virgin when he and Casca are relaxing after having sex.

I did not think that Guts was one, I mean the very first page of the first volume in the manga is Guts having sex.

The first page of the first volume of the manga takes place a long while after Guts is with Casca.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on July 12, 2014, 02:23:47 AM
Hot Chic, I suggest you read the manga. It's infinitely better than whatever the hell those movies are. Everything that doesn't make sense, or doesn't seem handled well, makes sense and IS handled well in the manga (not surprisingly).

Not to mention if you like the series you should support the creator, and it's a forum rule as well.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 06, 2014, 01:07:17 PM
I think a lot of you guys are being a little too hardcore.  The anime was far off in many parts and yet it is what brought me to the manga.  That being said NOTHING will EVER catch the magic of the manga.  I personally enjoyed the golden age arc.  Better than nothing for me.  It left a lot out, sure, but it wasn't completely butchered either.  Some people will love it and make them curious to get into the series itself.   They'll be like wow, this series is deep and at the end of the day thats what adaptions are all about.  I have never seen a frame by frame or telling of a tale nail it from any series in any form of media, but I haven't seen anything from berserk yet that would make a casual run for the hills. 
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on October 06, 2014, 03:42:35 PM
I think a lot of you guys are being a little too hardcore.

We're a forum exclusively formed around discussing Berserk. Did you really expect a softcore dissection of it?

Quote
I personally enjoyed the golden age arc.  Better than nothing for me. 

It charicaturizes characters and events, making them seem trivial and one-dimensional. That's not better than nothing. That's blasting a poor version of what Berserk is on a bigger megaphone than the original, shaping people's perceptions of the series. "Oh, THAT's Berserk?"

Quote
They'll be like wow, this series is deep

I don't see how anyone could reach that conclusion based on a viewing of the movies. It excises many of the scenes that give the series its depth, keeping only the most forward-moving plot points (while excising scenes that make these function).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 06, 2014, 04:49:11 PM
Walter, I meant they'll think the series is deep upon reading the manga.  Also, what could anyone expect covering so much ground in a movie?  Upon softcore, no, but you could change it to "dissecting the god awful trilogy." ;)  Did you enjoy the anime? No trilogy or movie can or ever will capture berserk properly to the degree hardcore fans desire.  Low expectations.  Lastly, blasting a poor version of berserk.....if anyone is even partially intrigued into something,  most people these days do the research and even this version, easily understood as the weaker of all other elements, is still more intriguing than most stories.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on October 06, 2014, 04:59:11 PM
Walter, I meant they'll think the series is deep upon reading the manga. 

Okay, I guess I became disoriented by your repeated use of "it."

Quote
Also, what could anyone expect covering so much ground in a movie?

That's true. It was a failed endeavor even upon embarking, and thus shouldn't have been made at all.

Quote
Upon softcore, no, but you could change it to "dissecting the god awful trilogy." ;)  Did you enjoy the anime?

I liked the (TV) anime at the time. Afterall, it's what introduced me to the series. But now, I don't think it's anything special.

Quote
No trilogy or movie can or ever will capture berserk properly to the degree hardcore fans desire.  Low expectations.

To me, it's more about respecting the series. This adaptation didn't, and that's the fundamental problem I have with it.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 06, 2014, 05:03:26 PM
The only way to adapt berserk properly is a very lengthy anime or god forbid live action series that doesn't deviate from the characters or events to the most simple detail.  That won't happen,  but I'm ok with this if it turns others on to the real deal.  Some will walk away thinking how awesome and crazy the show is, much like i did to the anime.   Tell their friends and then a small portion of those might get into the series and buy some books.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on October 06, 2014, 05:06:21 PM
The only way to adapt berserk properly is a very lengthy anime ... that doesn't deviate from the characters or events to the most simple detail.

As I recall, that was what they set out to do with this "Berserk Project" that was supposed to retell the whole series. Of course, it also started out as a single movie for the Golden Age (wouldn't that have been a blast to watch?), which was later padded into three movies, and now there's been no word of them moving forward.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 06, 2014, 05:07:34 PM
Well.....I got nothing for the end result if that was the case.   :???:  I recall seeing casca in her robes in a preview of the previews, but that never came to be.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Aazealh on October 06, 2014, 05:35:29 PM
No trilogy or movie can or ever will capture berserk properly to the degree hardcore fans desire.  Low expectations.

I don't think that's true. The story can be adapted to a satisfactory level (i.e. not butchering it, which the trilogy definitely did do), and it's not a matter of expectations but of ambition. The Golden Age arc is too expansive to be adapted in movie form, and the story just doesn't flow in a manner that makes it appropriate for that format. It doesn't take a genius (or a "hardcore fan") to put that together. However there are portions of the story, like the Black Swordsman arc, that could fit said format. It's really just about doing things competently.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 06, 2014, 05:41:22 PM
I doubt that will ever happen.   Berserk might have a peter jackson out there.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Delta Phi on October 07, 2014, 01:31:29 AM
:???:  I recall seeing casca in her robes in a preview of the previews, but that never came to be.
That was probably test footage from when the studio made their pitch. There was also an image of Griffith in his post-incarnation Falcon of Light armor.
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Walter on October 07, 2014, 02:07:15 AM
That was probably test footage from when the studio made their pitch. There was also an image of Griffith in his post-incarnation Falcon of Light armor.

You guys should really check out the first post in the official anime project thread (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=12735.0). It's sort of a visual timeline of the news of the project as it was coming out (and until I got bored with it).
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Salem on October 07, 2014, 12:15:55 PM
Thats the one!!
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Keiko on October 15, 2014, 07:37:52 PM
One thing that stuck out to me (apart from all the obvious stuff that's already been pointed out) was the way they made Casca crack up laughing after she wakes up insane. It was ridiculous and also ruins the segments with Guts wondering when he last saw her smile. But I also have to comment on the so-called rape. They... really didn't make it clear that Casca's suffering there, all it looks like is a minute of ugly fapping while Casca semi-enjoys the whole thing, then it's over before you know wth just happened and for some reason she's insane the next time we see her... even as I know better I sat there feeling like I couldn't tell the reason to why she was like that, the rape barely left an impact and all the added perverted scenes they add such as Femto fumbling her breasts and crotch for a good minute is just gross (though it doesn't top Charlotte's epic squeeling at Griffith merely touching her breast the last movie).

Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: The Ruffled Swordsman on March 05, 2015, 01:52:03 AM
Quick thoughts

upfront i saw the movie with a group of friends.  We had watched the previous two movies together, besides one friend who only watched the second one.

These trilogy's have had me excited for each addition.  Some of the other people in this group less so, because from the very beginning the question from all our lips was, would this somehow lead towards other parts of the manga being adopted.

Looking for signs of that in each movie is encouraging, but most people tell me do to funding this won't happen.  But i did give me hope, false or otherwise, from the opening in each seemingly reflecting not so much the golden age but the group post eclipse.  It's weird seeing Isidro, schierkie, in the opening.

this isn't a long review, but some moments during the movie.

Seeing puck was a heartfelt moment, it's like seeing the hope for the future, even before that optimism is necessary.  I always felt that way about him.  But him appearing was ever so moving.


This is stupid, but i was pissed the eclipse was blue.


It went down a bit differently than i remembered, but that's not a complaint, I also missed judo's speech.

From what i recall the bits of griffith's transformation seemed spaced out differently in such a way that, was eerie.

I would say they did a great job with this, this is where i saw the movie as wanting to be different than both the manga, and the anime's telling of this story.


And as a story telling device, it seemed to play of the other forms of the story.  It was wrenching viewing this, because i feel the way they told it made Griffith's transformation a celestial one.

And there's nothing more devastating then the perspective of the hawks and of people, getting crushed by something that through this presentation choice had the effect of a celestial law.

They gave it this transcendent tone, after selling out the hawks.  But the way they told it, or perhaps more fittingly showed it with the perspective from outer space, and him looking like pure light for a second.

It's crushing that they showcased in this transformation as everything its cracked up to be, for what it took to make it happen and that he's going to become evil incarnate within the next few scenes.


The other people i watched it with were satisfied, except they were all focused on the eclipse being different in some way or another, me as well with the blue.

but it was an interesting dynamic when contrasted with the anime telling of the final days of the band of the hawk, and the manga telling.

Some how it left me feeling excited for future movies with more of the story.

But as of yet are there any plans mentioned for this.


Stil
Title: Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
Post by: Tangsta on August 25, 2015, 07:33:51 AM
I recently rewatched this and I have to say, the hook up between Casca and Guts seemed so random. I guess I should say right now I am not a Guts and Casca relationship fan. I am not putting Casca down or anything but it sort of seemed forced that she swung over to Guts after being so hung up on Griffith. One minute she is bitching at him for ruining Griffith's life and even saying she regrets not being able to be his woman and then suddenly, because he stops her from killing herself, she wants to have sex with him? It just seemed like Casca decided she could not have Griffith so she settled for Guts in a weak emotional moment.

Sorry for the really late reply, but I honestly thought the relationship build up between Casca and Guts was subtle but definitely present throughout the Golden Arc chapters. From the moment she agreed to keep him warm with her naked body (because really, even if it was an order from Griffith, as if she'd be willing to do something so intimate with someone she truly despises), to the time they spent together after Casca fell down to the river at the battle for Doldrey. Their attraction to each other was always there, just obscured from each other's view due to Casca's jealously of how close Guts had become with Griffith, and Guts with his inexperience with women and not realising he was in love. They had been through so much together, argued bitterly and saved each other's lives, and the attraction strengthened after each experience, that it became fairly obvious they would eventually hook up.

In more colloquial anime jargon, Casca was essentially a 'tsundere' type character.