SkullKnight.net

Berserk => Speculation Nation => Topic started by: TerrorA on May 11, 2014, 09:56:08 PM

Title: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: TerrorA on May 11, 2014, 09:56:08 PM
If you were to guess Berserk's ending, what would you guess?

I'd say the Big G  :guts: and his crew of warriors  :puck:  :schierke:  :isidro:  :iva:  : :serpico:  :farnese:   :SK:  (along with a newly re badassed Casca  :casca:) lead an army of good spiris from Elfhelm  and EVERYONE GUTS HAS EVER HELPED take the fight to  Falconia.

As the humans and Spirits kill their way to Griffith's throne room, the Godhand feel fear for the first time EVER. The Band of the Wolf (my nickname for Guts and co) take on the Neo Hawks. Guts fights Zodd,  Azan fights Grunbeld, Irvine goes up against Isidro and Schierke. Locus fights Serpico. While fighting Zodd, Guts nearly gives in to The Beast, but finds a balance in it, the middle ground between righteous fury and blind rage. Now, he can fight at full strength without....well going nuts. After handily defeating their foes, Skull Knight and Guts' Band take on the Godhand.

Guts fights Griffith, Farnese and Casca fight Slan, The kids team up to fight Ubik, Skull Knight goes Immediately after Void, leaving Conrad for Sepico and Azan.

The Battle begins, and The IOE starts to interfere to make sure his Godhand win. But suddenly, his powers are blocked by something. A new force appears before the IOE, A being of brilliant light and darkest shadow. It explains itself. "If there is an Idea of Evil, would there not be an Idea of Good as well, a spirit of hope that no matter what, if we can live for the next day, things can improve?" He then forces the IOE to sit the match out, to see if  "Man or monster is stronger."

The heroes kill the Godhand, but Guts stays his final attack, instead allowing Casca to kill Griffith. As the battle ends, humans have won. The IOG smiles, then turns to the IOE. "And now we know. Hope beats despair." The IOE snarls that "Evil will never die" only for the Idea of Good to reply "But it will fall. Time and time again." With that, the soulsof the heroic dead ascend to the IOG's "rest"

Timeskip to 9 years later. A village is celebrating their heroes saving them from an attack by monsters. The two who saved them? A man, dual wielding a Cutlass and Lava dagger, with orange hair and a woman, a sorceress with bright green hair. The two walk away, wonfering what the others are doing.

Cut to Roderick and Farnese arguing with some nobles about how to spread the power of the new "Council of Midland". One makes a threatening move, and Serpico takes his hand.....at the wrist.

Cut to Puck and Everella flying with other fairies.

Final cut, to someone we DON'T know. A young boy, training with a sword all alone. Long dark hair, pointed ears, wearing black and brown clothing. Small monsters swarm him as the sun sets, and he gives them a VERY familiar smile. He mows them down, only for a huge Ogre to block his path. The boy doesn't even look afraid. The Ogre roars.....and gets bisected and his head cut off. Standing there in the dying light, capes floating in the breeze, The boys parents. Guts and Casca. The boy smiles, then runs in to hug them.

The Final page is blank, except for the closing narration: In this world, man is destined to struggle. He will be beaten, tried, and broken. But, those who struggle and fight, those who never give up, will find happiness in a world gone Berserk.

Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on May 11, 2014, 10:11:30 PM
I can't tell you how it will end, but I sure as hell can tell you it won't end like what you just wrote.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: TerrorA on May 11, 2014, 10:38:45 PM
Are you going to guess or make snarky comments
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Mangetsu on May 11, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
Your ending remembers me of the ending of many shonen manga , and this is not good.

I mean it is to hard to guess the ending for a series such as berserk, especially if there is one big critical point in the series ahead of us. Guessing the future story line after Elfhelm will be easier.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: TerrorA on May 11, 2014, 11:11:19 PM
Well, Miura did say it would have a happy ending, so...........yeah.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Mangetsu on May 11, 2014, 11:17:15 PM
Well, Miura did say it would have a happy ending, so...........yeah.

what... wait
he never said that.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: TerrorA on May 11, 2014, 11:26:34 PM
Yeah, a while back (back when I had an Acer instead of a Dell) there was an interview where he said (paraphrasing from  a two year old memory) Berserk "will have a happier ending then expected." But, then again, you're probably right too about my ending. This is Miura we're talking about. His version of a happy ending is probably strange and warped.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Mammon on May 11, 2014, 11:30:18 PM
If I recall correctly, Miura said that the ending won't be "completely pessimistic".

For the ending, when I finally read "Shin Angyo Onshi" (a masterpiece of a manwha, or manga maybe because it was published in Japan first; you might have seen the animated movie covering the first couple of volumes, it's pretty popular and IMHO not as bad as Berserk's movie adaptation),  I thought that Berserk might end almost like that.

I can't tell the ending because of obvious major spoilers, but if others here have read this one, maybe let's discuss it in another thread, I have much to say about it and why, in my mind, the ending might be similar to Berserk's.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on May 12, 2014, 02:57:37 AM
If I recall correctly, Miura said that the ending won't be "completely pessimistic".

He didn't say he wanted a happy ending, just that it wouldn't be pessimistic. That's rather vague and probably won't be as simple as "everybody is happy, nobody dies, past errors are erased".

 :griffnotevil:
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Gummyskull on May 12, 2014, 05:13:23 AM
It's gonna end with the reveal that it was a dream the entire time like in Super Mario Bros.2  :schnoz:

In all seriousness, I don't really like thinking about how stories will end. I want to be surprised!
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on May 12, 2014, 03:22:39 PM
If I recall correctly, Miura said that the ending won't be "completely pessimistic".

Indeed, and it's not as if that's a revelation. Anyone who was thinking the ending would be otherwise clearly hasn't been paying attention.

Personally, I've always felt that Guts would survive. I feel like I've explained why numerous times here, so in summary: He deserves it. He's struggled his whole life, the most painful parts of which were the direct result of others' misdeeds. For his life to end while toiling in the wake of someone else's evil actions would seem cruel to me--more cruel than normal, let's say. He's never truly had a chance at happiness, and I think that potential could come with the ending of the series.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Tama on May 12, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
I'm wondering if the last page of the series (or close to it) will be a picture of the dragon slayer in some form, maybe either broken finally or it stuck in the ground in a cool pose.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrMehawk on May 12, 2014, 08:38:03 PM
I'm wondering if the last page of the series (or close to it) will be a picture of the dragon slayer in some form, maybe either broken finally or it stuck in the ground in a cool pose.

Over a grave? No thank you.  :sad:
But that sounds like a cool idea actually. ^^
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on May 12, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
I'm wondering if the last page of the series (or close to it) will be a picture of the dragon slayer in some form, maybe either broken finally or it stuck in the ground in a cool pose.
Hmmm...

(http://lusipurr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/gameover.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Tama on May 12, 2014, 11:34:49 PM
I guess I didn't mean it like that lol. I was thinking something else in my head, a little more poetic.  :iva:
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Jarome on May 13, 2014, 12:23:09 AM
I'm wondering if the last page of the series (or close to it) will be a picture of the dragon slayer in some form, maybe either broken finally or it stuck in the ground in a cool pose.
My first thought came trough Cloud's sword in the FF7:Advent Children movie lol but Delta's picture shows pretty much the same concept :D

As for the ending, there's no way anyone can speculate about it and end up being right. This is no common manga, it's not gonna be a cheesy/easy conclusion and there's literally way too much stuff to be revealed yet...

Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on May 13, 2014, 03:16:58 AM
My first thought came trough Cloud's sword in the FF7:Advent Children movie lol but Delta's picture shows pretty much the same concept :D

I think there's actually several pictures across the franchise of various weapons sticking out of the ground. Almost like a franchise staple.

As for the ending, there's no way anyone can speculate about it and end up being right. This is no common manga, it's not gonna be a cheesy/easy conclusion and there's literally way too much stuff to be revealed yet...

True. I think the one thing I'm confident in is that Miura will deliver a great ending. He has consistently shown that he knows what he's doing and each arc has impressed me more than the last. I just can't wait to be able to enjoy it in its entirety. Though this journey (reading episodically), for me personally, over the last 10 years has really been something.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: slothqueen on June 25, 2014, 08:24:47 PM
I have several loose ideas about possible endings, but more specifficaly I imagine how Berserk would NOT end:
- Guts killing Femto with Dragon Slayer. However. I know many readers dream about it, but it would be the most shitty ending I can imagine... oh wait, no:
- Casca killing Femto with her own sword - that would be even worse. I understand your lust of rape-revange motive, but sorry, that would be completely uncannonic for Casca. Casca simply wouldn't kill that mighty demon - especially mighty demon she loves.
- Elfhelm vs. Falconia. For what...? If Griffith wanted that, he'd already achieved it. Elfhelm is too far away for him to care about it - it would be like travel to former Kushan Empire to pursue and kill local mages. Think about it. It's ridiculous. Griffith's apostles have currently whole continent to feast upon.
- Guts and Casca got killed in some way, Griffith and his kingdom live happily ever after. Quite logic, but... whole manga after defeating Ganishka becomes senseless.

I'm gonna write down my ideas about IMO cool endings sometime later ;) Now I have to study for exams. 
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on June 26, 2014, 01:44:36 AM
Casca simply wouldn't kill that mighty demon - especially mighty demon she loves.
What are you talking about...?

Quote
- Elfhelm vs. Falconia. For what...? If Griffith wanted that, he'd already achieved it. Elfhelm is too far away for him to care about it - it would be like travel to former Kushan Empire to pursue and kill local mages. Think about it. It's ridiculous. Griffith's apostles have currently whole continent to feast upon.
We've thought about it (welcome to the forum where we've been discussing these notions for more than a decade), and it's not what I'd call ridiculous, just unlikely.

Quote
I'm gonna write down my ideas about IMO cool endings sometime later ;) Now I have to study for exams.
That probably would have been a better time to revive the thread.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Redfield on June 26, 2014, 05:12:57 AM
About the only three speculations I have ever had about how Berserk would end are that:

1.)  Rickert will somehow play a very important role in the resolution.  Like, a major key participant.

2.)  Guts may have a 'somewhat happy' ending (paraphrasing), but I feel that during the climactic sequences, most of Falconia's population will regard him as an unstoppable harbinger of doom for their paradise.  Once he gets in there and starts wrecking things, they won't see him as some kind of savior at all.  I feel like its just an ironic portrayal of humanity waiting to be expressed.

3.)  I don't think the ending will hinge on a simple boss fight or 7, although I believe that there will be a few of those working up to the finale.

Just my .02. 
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: slothqueen on June 26, 2014, 07:52:44 AM
What are you talking about...?
I meant that we have  virtually no proves to think, that Casca stopped loving Griffith - ofc I talk about sane version of Casca, which would probably return to us soon (I hope). Note that Casca never truly stopped loving Griffith - not even when she fell in love with Guts, nor when she heard that he slept with princess. She even decided to stay with him just to take care of his crippled body, instead of starting new life with Guts. So yes, I think that if sane Casca meet Femto (being completely like Griffith), she would never get to harm him.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on June 26, 2014, 01:32:13 PM
I meant that we have  virtually no proves to think, that Casca stopped loving Griffith

That's not true at all. Her feelings began changing back in volume 6. Re-read her sililoquy in Volume 9 for more information. But beyond that, she chose to stay with Griffith after they rescued him out of pity and devotion, not love. She wanted to go with Guts, but felt that Griffith had no one. All of this, coupled with the fact that he raped her as Femto, driving her to insanity for 3+ years, I don't see how you can possibly conclude that she still loves him.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: TerrorA on June 26, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
This Casca x Griffith tone disturbs me greatly.

Are we honestly suggesting she loves the man who cause all of her friends to be killed and raped her to insanity?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Redfield on June 26, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
The impression I get from a lot of people who believe that Casca could still love Griffith is that they are Griffith fans that want to somehow justify his decisions as pragmatically sticking to some ruthless principle.  And that because those qualities are what caused her to become so devoted to him, she still will see those traits in Femto.

Since this is a speculation thread:

I don't believe that her feelings for Griffith post-eclpse will be so cut and dry.  I don't think it's a pure hate or pure love or anything like that.  It's going to be a complicated set of emotions because I just don't see Casca emerging from her insanity, if she even does, and simply taking up a sword to go and kill Griffith.  I just don't see the story playing out so plain as day. 

If I had to guess I'd venture that post healing, Casca will have a set of chapters devoted to her dealing with what's happened and trying to right herself through internal reflection and by interacting with those around her.   Or maybe it won't be direct interaction with them, but watching other people interact and finding ways, internally, to make sense of what's happened to her and to draw strength and perspective from that.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on June 26, 2014, 03:29:13 PM
The impression I get from a lot of people who believe that Casca could still love Griffith is that they are Griffith fans that want to somehow justify his decisions as pragmatically sticking to some ruthless principle.  And that because those qualities are what caused her to become so devoted to him, she still will see those traits in Femto.

That's an extremely deluded notion. Casca wasn't devoted to Griffith because he was ruthlessly ambitious. She didn't even know quite how ruthless he was. Only Guts did.

Quote
I don't believe that her feelings for Griffith post-eclpse will be so cut and dry.  I don't think it's a pure hate or pure love or anything like that.  It's going to be a complicated set of emotions because I just don't see Casca emerging from her insanity, if she even does, and simply taking up a sword to go and kill Griffith.  I just don't see the story playing out so plain as day. If I had to guess I'd venture that post healing, Casca will have a set of chapters devoted to her dealing with what's happened and trying to right herself through internal reflection and by interacting with those around her.   Or maybe it won't be direct interaction with them, but watching other people interact and finding ways, internally, to make sense of what's happened to her and to draw strength and perspective from that.

I don't think anyone here has said that it would be plain, or that day 1 post-restoration Casca would go jaunting across the ocean, teeth bared. Guts' own emotions on the subject aren't plain either, but it's pretty clear what he'd like to do to Femto's skull.

And yeah, a few episodes or more of her reflecting on what's happened and finding her place in this new world, this new group, and this new version of her lover, are a given.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Redfield on June 26, 2014, 04:38:55 PM
That's an extremely deluded notion. Casca wasn't devoted to Griffith because he was ruthlessly ambitious. She didn't even know quite how ruthless he was. Only Guts did.

She's seen that he's willing to go to severe lengths to achieve his ambition from the sequence where he's trying to wash away the guilt from giving himself over to Genon in order to gain a war chest.  While I don't know how 'Griffith fans' interpret that scene, I'd be willing to give the notion that she's seen his dark side and understands it, to some degree, some credence.  But to compare Genon and the Eclipse as being similar beyond that would be wrong in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here has said that it would be plain, or that day 1 post-restoration Casca would go jaunting across the ocean, teeth bared. Guts' own emotions on the subject aren't plain either, but it's pretty clear what he'd like to do to Femto's skull.

That is correct.  It's just my own 'thinking out loud' about the situation.  I think a lot of their emotions are going to come out when they confront Griffith.  While it's no guarantee that the three will ever be in the same place at the same time, I'd think it's safe speculation that at least once before the end, the trio will have a meeting of the minds.  Perhaps Rickert wil be there too.  It'll be a not so happy Band of the Falcon reunion.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on June 26, 2014, 04:50:16 PM
She's seen that he's willing to go to severe lengths to achieve his ambition from the sequence where he's trying to wash away the guilt from giving himself over to Genon in order to gain a war chest.

I don't think that was such a severe length, nor could it be regarded as ruthless. It's also not why Griffith scratches himself.

Read what he says during that scene. Getting railed by an old guy (or railing?) was probably not his cup of tea, but his distress comes from reflecting on the weight on his shoulders, and the burden of the deaths of comrades devoted to his cause. The whole sequence of events started with the death of that boy, who is representative of all the others who have died for Griffith.

You could also check out our podcasts where this we discuss the scene in detail: Episode 45 (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14224.0) (around 36 minutes) and Episode 22 (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13617.0) (around 50 minutes).
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Redfield on June 26, 2014, 05:04:54 PM
Thanks for the summarization of the scene.  I appreciate you taking the time to give me the 411 and I can find absolutely no flaw in your post.

As I sad in the original version of this post before I edited it to reflect your updated comments, I came out of lurking to become a better Berserk fan. 

I thought I had a good grasp on the series, but listening to the podcasts I've listened to so far (up to 9, I think, but I intend to eventually listen to them all) and taking the time to read through some old threads, I've learned a lot, not only about the series itself but how to try to look at it differently.  I think I should probably go back and read all the volumes again.  There are certainly worse things I could be spending my time on. 
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: slothqueen on June 27, 2014, 09:44:19 AM
Are we honestly suggesting she loves the man who cause all of her friends to be killed and raped her to insanity?
Casca clearly doesn't remember that Femto raped her - ok, now she doesn't remember nearly nothing from her past, but I mean that always when she has flashbacks about rape - there are apostles raping her, not Femto (I think it could be like several seconds before passing out - she didn't "record" that act). If recovered Casca was indeed unable to recall that memory, she will be like Rickert - but a lot more devoted to Griffith.

In anticipation of your comments, that she'd remember apostles devouring BoH anyway - there is very large possibility, that she wouldn't belive, that it was caused by Griffith's conscious decision. From her point of view, during the eclipse Griffith was small, mutile cripple rapted by the demons - yes, that demons claimed that it was his wish to sacrifice them, but hello, they were DEMONS, they could simply lied about it, and kill them all just for fun - Casca could even think  that Griffith had been killed by them first (giant hand that closed on him). In case of Guts telling her his point of view after bringing her back to reality - does she have to believe him? She could became under the impression, that fighting monsters durin the eclipse drove him insane, and he believed into lies about Griffith's fault just to have some enemy to pursue, some reason to unload his anger and hatred.

Why do I look for so many reasons for Casca to take Griffith's side? Because Griffith means to Casca a lot more than some of you think, and it has nothing in common with shipping Griffith with Casca or justifying his rape on her. Casca loves him not only as a potential partner - she loves him as a father, brother, master (master/apprentice relation), and even as her child (somebody who needs her care). Her feelings for him are way more complicated than for Guts - there is a lot more trust, empathy and general admiration for him than for Guts (who is seen by Casca as somebody agressive and reckless, no matter how she loves him), and so, there is a big possibility that Casca would reason like that, as she come back to the lucid state. She is simply too devoted to his figure as a noble hero, her saviour and master to believe into story like that.

Of course I do not guarantee you, that it all will happen like that - I just find this option the most logic in comparision with Casca's behaviour during Golden Age. ;)
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on June 27, 2014, 09:58:43 AM
If Casca hadn't developed beyond volume 5, I might agree with you. But she did. She became a different person because she realized her role next to Griffith's side had been compromised, and slowly fell in love with Guts.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Alternatively, you could re-read this portion of the series.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Mammon on July 06, 2014, 06:25:01 PM
Wow I just woke up (it's 6AM in New Caledonia) and I had the weirdest Berserk "ending" dream.

(I was watching from the sky, levitating)
It was after a big battle, Guts is standing, beaten and bloodied up in front of Femto, who toys with him, cuts his good arm off, destroys his good eye, and finally stabs him in he torso, and at that exact moment Casca appears behind Femto in a big jump, crying and wielding a huge sword (?). Femto smirks, starts to turn around to face her but Guts, almost dead just make one step forward, and step/stomp on his cape, blocking his movement and surprising him for a split second, allowing Casca to strike him down.
And then Guts dies, standing, a foot still on Femto's cape.

I think my subconscious almost plagiarized another manga (won't tell which one, because of obvious ultimate spoiler ^^) but I think it was a pretty cool scene in my dream.

Can't wait to have the real ending. In 10 years maybe  :carcus: Oh well, it's the journey that matters, not the destination or whatever you guys say ^^

Sorry for the useless post, just woke up and didn't want to forget it, oh well  :farnese:

Mangoku
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: smogas on July 06, 2014, 09:32:05 PM
Not almost, you completely described ending to the manga you are talking about just need to change some names, its like if you forgot your dream you could quickly reread the manga and you'll remember it. :daiba: Anyway I hope Guts survives in the Berserk ending, big guy endured too much it would be too sad if he dies.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Mammon on July 07, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
Ah, I was sure somebody would recognize it!  :ubik:
I haven't read this mysterious and very underrated manga in years (about 5/6 maybe?), and after writing this dream I  quickly re-read just the end again to compare.
That made me remember even more parts of my dream, but seeing it Berserk-style was a nice vision. Cool dream. Made me want to read that manga again, I have fond memories of it. :guts:
Cheers!

Mammon
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: slothqueen on July 08, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
As I told before, I have several certain theses about ending. Maybe they wouldn't be very innovatory, but I'm quite sure about all of them, and I wanted to create kind of summation about everything we know:
1. Griffith would be defeated - in this way of another. He could be degraded by his people, whose collective consciousness will change, by Guts, by his own inner problems, by the causalty. The ending would be very disappointing, if Femto come out of it sickeningly inviolable, as ever. And, like I said somewhere before, whole part of manga after defeating Ganishka would be in vain.
2. Demon child will play most important role in Guts/Griffith conflict - for his whole life, Griffith wanted to get rid of his feelings, because they were only burden to him during his way to the castle - on the other hand, achieving his dream surely kept him satisfied. Now, as Femto, his wish came true and his heart is frozen. He bears no regrets, but is he still capable of being happy or satisfied? I think not. He would be crowned, he would marry a princess, he would rule the greatest kingdom of humankind ever from the godlike castle, and he would take no satisfaction from it, because of his own wish. Besides, he lives as a God Hand still very short, and he behaves mostly human way - that's why he saved the princess, why he plays with Sonia and create all this show with bowing to the pope and farewell-rites. Griffith always wanted to be a good guy, a noble knight from a fairytale, and  even after becoming a daemon (a deamon who could solve all problems with war and interregnum by force) he still waits for the satisfaction he used to get from being a heroic Griffith White Hawk. That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after.
But it's impossible. He would get it and still feel nothing - just like his dream was in vain. But wait, there ARE feelings he has - only feelings he can feel now and will be able to feel evermore - daemon child's love for Guts and Casca. I find this situation comparable to one when Griffith was alone in the cell of Tower of Rebirth - he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts. It's also justification to why Griffith and Guts will meet again - I find and idea of Falconia attacking Skellig not so convincing, so like Guts hitting the road back just to kill his nemesis - he promised to take care of Casca, and no matter if he will cure her or not, I think he won't take a risk of trying to kill Femto with Casca by his side. He would have too much to lose. But Griffith pursuing the only thing that could make him feel happy now is other case.
3. Sonia will join Schierke as they meet next time - it's nearly certain, taking in concern Sonia's dream about owl and kite playing in the forest. Sonia is seeress, and I believe her dreams mean a lot. It's also big chance that she'll find out who Griffith really is, or... insult at him after his wedding with Charlotte. Sonia is great character, very dynamic and unpredictible, and I think she still have some important role to play in Berserk.
4. Somebody will use Guts' Beherit, and it won't be Guts - it won't be Guts, because he is already sacrificed, and on the other hand, he would have to sacrifice Casca who is also already sacrificed. I think of somebody relatively unaware of whole thing with Beherits - like Isma, Charlotte, Sonia... Also Farnese seems likely to do this to me.

I also wish Casca to be cured, but unfortunately I'm not sure of it. It will be tragic, seeing Guts' reaction to her inability to come back to reality, but on the other hand Berserk is very little stirring last times, and it could be way to set it back on the proper, depressing and hard track of how it used to be before Millennium Falcon Arc.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 10, 2014, 10:40:23 AM
Guts may have a 'somewhat happy' ending (paraphrasing), but I feel that during the climactic sequences, most of Falconia's population will regard him as an unstoppable harbinger of doom for their paradise.  Once he gets in there and starts wrecking things, they won't see him as some kind of savior at all.  I feel like its just an ironic portrayal of humanity waiting to be expressed.

Note that such portrayal has already been depicted to some extent at the end of the Conviction arc.

Casca clearly doesn't remember that Femto raped her - ok, now she doesn't remember nearly nothing from her past, but I mean that always when she has flashbacks about rape - there are apostles raping her, not Femto (I think it could be like several seconds before passing out - she didn't "record" that act).

Casca had a couple flashbacks of herself being assaulted by several apostles when she was being assaulted by several ruffians. No rape actually occurred. There's no reason to assume she didn't "record" the rape, however it's quite clear, given that it is what caused her the trauma that resulted in her current condition, that it's not something that can easily come up to her conscious mind. Recalling that event and dealing with it will likely play an important role in her healing process.

If recovered Casca was indeed unable to recall that memory, she will be like Rickert - but a lot more devoted to Griffith.

There is no basis for that assumption. The only reason Casca thought about staying with Griffith instead of going with Guts was because Griffith was a broken man and he clinged to her. That's not what she wanted to do; she was sacrificing herself out of pity. The situation is now vastly different, and even within that contrived scenario of yours what you propose isn't a likely occurrence. Also, Rickert's case is completely different, and his motivation to be in Falconia isn't what you seem to think it is.

In anticipation of your comments, that she'd remember apostles devouring BoH anyway - there is very large possibility, that she wouldn't belive, that it was caused by Griffith's conscious decision. From her point of view, during the eclipse Griffith was small, mutile cripple rapted by the demons - yes, that demons claimed that it was his wish to sacrifice them, but hello, they were DEMONS, they could simply lied about it, and kill them all just for fun - Casca could even think  that Griffith had been killed by them first (giant hand that closed on him). In case of Guts telling her his point of view after bringing her back to reality - does she have to believe him? She could became under the impression, that fighting monsters durin the eclipse drove him insane, and he believed into lies about Griffith's fault just to have some enemy to pursue, some reason to unload his anger and hatred.

Don't you realize how desperately you twist the scenes so that you can keep believing in your little story? Casca knew who Femto was when he started violating her. She knew Griffith had been chosen, she heard the words like the others. And she would have no reason to distrust Guts or to refuse to believe what he saw or heard. But beyond that, Griffith's current position as a supernatural ruler of a supernatural city in a supernatural world makes it completely clear that something abnormal happened to him, and she was there when it did. I could go on and on about this, but honestly the takeaway for you should just be to "get real". Stop deluding yourself.

Why do I look for so many reasons for Casca to take Griffith's side? Because Griffith means to Casca a lot more than some of you think, and it has nothing in common with shipping Griffith with Casca or justifying his rape on her. Casca loves him not only as a potential partner - she loves him as a father, brother, master (master/apprentice relation), and even as her child (somebody who needs her care). Her feelings for him are way more complicated than for Guts - there is a lot more trust, empathy and general admiration for him than for Guts (who is seen by Casca as somebody agressive and reckless, no matter how she loves him), and so, there is a big possibility that Casca would reason like that, as she come back to the lucid state. She is simply too devoted to his figure as a noble hero, her saviour and master to believe into story like that.

I think it's pretty obvious here that you're the one who does not understand what exactly each person means to the other. You speak of depth of emotion, of complexity, but it just feels like you haven't read the story. Very simply put, by the time the Eclipse occurred, it can be confidently said that Casca loved Guts and that she didn't love Griffith. Instead of guessing what the characters feel, you can just read what they say and think, and it'll be all clear to you. When Casca thought about staying behind to care for him, she certainly didn't see him as a "noble hero" or a "savior", and definitely not as her "master". You're wasting everyone's time (and setting yourself up for a disappointment) when you try to refute these simple truths.

Of course I do not guarantee you, that it all will happen like that - I just find this option the most logic in comparision with Casca's behaviour during Golden Age. ;)

There is nothing logical about what you've proposed here. Like Walter wisely said, you should re-read the Golden Age arc beyond volume 5 and pay attention to the way the characters develop.

It was after a big battle, Guts is standing, beaten and bloodied up in front of Femto, who toys with him, cuts his good arm off, destroys his good eye, and finally stabs him in he torso, and at that exact moment Casca appears behind Femto in a big jump, crying and wielding a huge sword (?). Femto smirks, starts to turn around to face her but Guts, almost dead just make one step forward, and step/stomp on his cape, blocking his movement and surprising him for a split second, allowing Casca to strike him down.
And then Guts dies, standing, a foot still on Femto's cape.

To be honest that seems pretty bad to me. A dying Guts steps on Femto's wings (not a cape), and that allows Casca to kill him? Sounds like a joke.

1. Griffith would be defeated - in this way of another. He could be degraded by his people, whose collective consciousness will change, by Guts, by his own inner problems, by the causalty.

That reads almost like gibberish. Degraded by causality?

The ending would be very disappointing, if Femto come out of it sickeningly inviolable, as ever. And, like I said somewhere before, whole part of manga after defeating Ganishka would be in vain.

The entire manga would be in vain, if you reason like that. Berserk is the story of Guts.

2. Demon child will play most important role in Guts/Griffith conflict - for his whole life, Griffith wanted to get rid of his feelings, because they were only burden to him during his way to the castle - on the other hand, achieving his dream surely kept him satisfied. Now, as Femto, his wish came true and his heart is frozen. He bears no regrets, but is he still capable of being happy or satisfied? I think not. He would be crowned, he would marry a princess, he would rule the greatest kingdom of humankind ever from the godlike castle, and he would take no satisfaction from it, because of his own wish. Besides, he lives as a God Hand still very short, and he behaves mostly human way - that's why he saved the princess, why he plays with Sonia and create all this show with bowing to the pope and farewell-rites. Griffith always wanted to be a good guy, a noble knight from a fairytale, and  even after becoming a daemon (a deamon who could solve all problems with war and interregnum by force) he still waits for the satisfaction he used to get from being a heroic Griffith White Hawk. That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after.
But it's impossible. He would get it and still feel nothing - just like his dream was in vain. But wait, there ARE feelings he has - only feelings he can feel now and will be able to feel evermore - daemon child's love for Guts and Casca. I find this situation comparable to one when Griffith was alone in the cell of Tower of Rebirth - he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts. It's also justification to why Griffith and Guts will meet again - I find and idea of Falconia attacking Skellig not so convincing, so like Guts hitting the road back just to kill his nemesis - he promised to take care of Casca, and no matter if he will cure her or not, I think he won't take a risk of trying to kill Femto with Casca by his side. He would have too much to lose. But Griffith pursuing the only thing that could make him feel happy now is other case.

God, what a load that was. You're getting a lot of things confused here. Like the fact Femto didn't come into the corporeal world until he was incarnated. That wasn't because he didn't want to, he just couldn't. Same for the others. Oh and the Demon Child's feelings aren't Griffith's. The two remain separate despite inhabiting the same body, so it's more parasitic from what we've seen so far. Similarly, you talk at length about Griffith's feelings (or absence of) and what he wants or doesn't want, but that's mostly baseless. We don't have that kind of window into his mind. And the way he's been behaving since his incarnation was also in a large part to achieve a greater plan, don't forget that.

But even when we do know what he thinks, you get it wrong. For example, you speak of Griffith simply cherishing his memories of friendship with Guts while he was imprisoned in the Tower of Rebirth, while Griffith actually went insane at that time and developed a hatred for him, blaming him for his current situation without reconsidering his own actions. Lastly, about Guts not wanting to go to Griffith with Casca (even sane) at his side... That remains to be seen. However, keep in mind that the boy has actually been visiting his parents (in the form of the Moonlight Boy). Again, the boy and Griffith may share a body (and more, it seems), but they aren't quite the same being. So I don't believe Griffith would go to Guts and Casca because that's all that'd make him happy. His feelings for those two were addressed in volume 22, and if anything, the boy's emotions (and actions), that he hadn't anticipated, unnerved him enough that he left. I don't believe he'd want to reiterate that experience.

3. Sonia will join Schierke as they meet next time - it's nearly certain, taking in concern Sonia's dream about owl and kite playing in the forest. Sonia is seeress, and I believe her dreams mean a lot. It's also big chance that she'll find out who Griffith really is, or... insult at him after his wedding with Charlotte. Sonia is great character, very dynamic and unpredictible, and I think she still have some important role to play in Berserk.

Sonia's dream? What dream? Sonia has a very specific worldview, and she could relate to Schierke as being different but similar enough to her that they could be friends. Brought together by their specialness, by the fact they are not like the majority of humans. However, Sonia is Griffith's #1 fan at this point, and she's hardly been phased by things like apostles or the like so far. I sure hope she gets to rebel at some point, but I don't quite see how it'd happen in the way you're saying. For one thing, she and Schierke are very far apart from one another right now.

4. Somebody will use Guts' Beherit, and it won't be Guts - it won't be Guts, because he is already sacrificed, and on the other hand, he would have to sacrifice Casca who is also already sacrificed. I think of somebody relatively unaware of whole thing with Beherits - like Isma, Charlotte, Sonia... Also Farnese seems likely to do this to me.

What purpose would it serve for the story if any of those you mention were to become apostles? I think that's what should be taken into account when speculating about this. I mean, Farnese's undergone tremendous character development, so don't you think it'd be a waste for her to just become a monster? A monster Guts could dispatch without breaking a sweat?

I also wish Casca to be cured, but unfortunately I'm not sure of it. It will be tragic, seeing Guts' reaction to her inability to come back to reality, but on the other hand Berserk is very little stirring last times, and it could be way to set it back on the proper, depressing and hard track of how it used to be before Millennium Falcon Arc.

I don't think you've got a good grasp on the story or its development. We've been waiting for Casca to come back for a long time now. To have that denied would be ridiculous. But beyond that, Guts has been struggling to keep going, to not lose himself in his revenge, and that's an even bigger danger now that he wears the Berserk's armor. The one light that's kept him alive, that's kept him sane, is Casca. If he is to ever triumph over what awaits him, he'll need her with him. A "depressing and hard track" would be for Guts to die alone while fighting monsters in a shithole. I don't believe that's what Miura has in store for us.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: slothqueen on July 11, 2014, 05:52:14 AM
There is no basis for that assumption. The only reason Casca thought about staying with Griffith instead of going with Guts was because Griffith was a broken man and he clinged to her. That's not what she wanted to do
Ofc that's not what she wanted to do. Taking care of your bed-ridden grandmother is also not what you want to do. It's your duty with respect to a person who formerly was taking care of you - you remember days when she was your teacher, trustee and guardian, when she was stronger and wiser than you, and you just can't leave her when she needs your help. It's comparable with what Casca had to feel. I read manga enough times to reason, that there was no moment in which Casca says or thinks that since now Griffith means for her no more than Corcus. She claims that her feelings were "empty", because they were unable to fulfill and she realised, that she clinged to them in vain, not because they were fake. Her feelings for Guts had a ground to grow on, so she developed them quickly in a short time, but notice that even during the rescue trip in Wyndham, after Casca expressed  her love for Guts, she was jealous as princess hinted that Griffith slept with her. Women really don't have one slot for a guy they love (especially that Casca really wasn't thinking about Griffith as her potential partner that times, what you know ofc - but it doesn't mean that all her feelings for him disappeared). 

Also, Rickert's case is completely different, and his motivation to be in Falconia isn't what you seem to think it is.
I think that he took Erica to the safest place he could. What you supposed that I thought? I wanted to refer to the fact that Rickert was unable to hate Griffith, because he hadn't seen the slaughter of BoH - he knew what happened, but he didn't "felt" that.

But beyond that, Griffith's current position as a supernatural ruler of a supernatural city in a supernatural world makes it completely clear that something abnormal happened to him
Hm, that's an argument I can't deny. :> You won, I overthought.

Very simply put, by the time the Eclipse occurred, it can be confidently said that Casca loved Guts and that she didn't love Griffith.
I simply don't agree, let's move on, because it won't change even as I'll read manga five times more. Casca didn't tell or show it on any page of manga, so I feel justified.

Instead of guessing what the characters feel
So what the speculation section was made for...?
 
You can just read what they say and think, and it'll be all clear to you.
OK, in chapters 61 and 62 Casca tells how empty and meaningless her feelings for Griffith were, and that she's weary with it. Somewhere in the manga is also something like "When Griffith lost for the first time, I should have been thinking about him and focus on him, but my eyes were fasten on Guts", but this one in turn shows the fact that she was affected by the fact that Guts left in any way, because before she wasn't even aware that he means to her more than generic soldier. And not sure if you noticed, departure (permanent) of somebody is more serious thing than being beaten in gentlemanly duel. Try to imagine what she'd do if Griffith wanted to leave without a word. Moreover, read the second half of the chapter 66, and see how Casca gives a shit about whole thing with princess... Moreover, there's one pic where she directly claims that she still worships Griffith. I know that I'm new, but that doesn't mean that I read manga once and slapdash.

To be honest, I can't find any page on which Casca denies her feelings for Griffith. You can post them if you want to help me...

When Casca thought about staying behind to care for him, she certainly didn't see him as a "noble hero" or a "savior", and definitely not as her "master".
I think that posting my bed-ridden grandma metaphor here once more is not necessary...

That reads almost like gibberish. Degraded by causality?
I'm sorry for this one, I'm not native english speaker and have relatively little contact with the language. BTW, that's why my syntax appears nasty sometimes, and why I usually use past simple as I write about past, even if construction of the sentence requires other form - it's the most similar to the only past form I have in my native language.

That wasn't because he didn't want to, he just couldn't.
I know, and find nothing precluding in any of my posts.

Oh and the Demon Child's feelings aren't Griffith's. The two remain separate despite inhabiting the same body, so it's more parasitic from what we've seen so far. Similarly, you talk at length about Griffith's feelings (or absence of) and what he wants or doesn't want, but that's mostly baseless. We don't have that kind of window into his mind.
What do you think about analyzing one's behavior and speculating about feelings? I thought this part of forum was made to do this...

And the way he's been behaving since his incarnation was also in a large part to achieve a greater plan, don't forget that.
Once more - when did I write anything precluding?

For example, you speak of Griffith simply cherishing his memories of friendship with Guts while he was imprisoned in the Tower of Rebirth, while Griffith actually went insane at that time and developed a hatred for him
Argh, why you try to persuade me again that I wrote something I didn't? I wrote "he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts" and let's keep it in original form, without decorating it with adverbs of our choice, ok?

I don't claim that cherishing memories about friendship excludes hatred to an object, or madness of a subject. I recommend listening of Rammstein's "Mutter" - it describes combination of love, hatred and obsession perfectly. And very accurately in the reference to Griffith's situation.

Lastly, about Guts not wanting to go to Griffith with Casca (even sane) at his side... That remains to be seen.
Guts said "Why did I always realize it, when I already lost it..." enough times to think twice, I think.

I don't believe he'd want to reiterate that experience.
Easy, he's Femto for only 3-4 years, and he still conquers his kingdom. Wait till he'd be the king for couple of years, and would be unable to get any satisfaction from his lifelong dream...

Sonia's dream? What dream?

Chapter 250 page 17. I find recommending me re-reading manga a little improper in the face of this...

We've been waiting for Casca to come back for a long time now. To have that denied would be ridiculous. But beyond that, Guts has been struggling to keep going, to not lose himself in his revenge, and that's an even bigger danger now that he wears the Berserk's armor.
It's true. But, on the other hand - was whole introducing into life of BoH ridiculous? Was Gaston's stories about his shop and Judeau's about his troupe in vain? Perhaps. Or were they in the story to make us sympathize with Hawks, and to bring us more pain during the eclipse? Similar thing could be with Casca - to show all struggling with hellhound as desperate clinging to nothing but an illusion. It would be a bit too long, but nothing is impossible. Not sure if you noticed, but there's a moment in which hellhound teases Guts, that Casca's not what he wants really - his only real goal is vengeance, and taking care of Casca is just caressing wounds that Griffith inflicted him. I won't be surprised if Casca - for example - would resist as Hanafubuku will try to take her to sanity (like Skull Knight said - she will not want to become aware of what happened to her), and Guts would make his last farewell to his former love and comrades, to fulfill his destiny and come back to face Griffith last time. It's also what he wants, and the choice between Griffith and Casca was difficult to him though. It won't be shitty plot development imo.

At the end I could also refer to our good old crippled Griffith situation - Casca is for Guts now the same thing Griffith was to Casca than - shell of her former, wonderful self. Guts also doesn't want to wipe retarded Casca's ass - he lives on a hope of restoring her mind, but he also simply found it cruel to leave this shell alone to die. Does he love her still? I think he loves her (to be painfully accurate - her retarded form, not an idea of her former self) similarly to how Casca loved crippled Griffith.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on July 11, 2014, 12:42:22 PM
Ofc that's not what she wanted to do. Taking care of your bed-ridden grandmother is also not what you want to do. It's your duty with respect to a person who formerly was taking care of you - you remember days when she was your teacher, trustee and guardian, when she was stronger and wiser than you, and you just can't leave her when she need your help. It's comparable with what Casca had to feel.

First of all, pretty bogus analogy given the actual relationship between Casca and Griffith, who she admits to having had romantic feelings for... But do you honestly think she'd continue to feel that devotion after learning the truth about what happened to her comrades (who she fought to near-death trying to protect), and herself? Her granny sure was a dick.

Quote
I read manga enough times to reason, that there was no moment in which Casca says or thinks that since now Griffith means for her no more than Corcus.

Nice black or white argument...  :schierke: It's either ALL LOVE or THE SAME AS CORKUS. She admits that her feelings for Griffith changed after a) she realized there was no place at Griffith's side for her in the way that she wanted b) Guts began to grow in importance in her life. We also see Judo realizing her changing emotions in volume 8 and 9. This is Miura's way of underlining this fundamental shift in Casca.

Quote
Casca expressed  her love for Guts, she was jealous as princess hinted that Griffith slept with her.

Jealous of having slept with her dear, old Granny? I don't think that's really proof of anything. She felt a residual pang of jealousy. Weighing that equally alongside the huge, open-heart conversation she had during her love scene with Guts is absurd.

Quote
Casca really wasn't thinking about Griffith as her potential partner that times, what you know ofc - but it doesn't mean that all her feelings for him disappeared). 

But her feelings had fundamentally changed. She's not "I want to be his sword" Casca anymore. Which I believe is the point Aazealh was making, and you seem to keep ignoring that in favor of some cryogenically frozen Volume 5-era Casca. But I'm glad you realize she didn't want to jump his bones. Some people get confused about that...

Quote
I think that he took Erica to the safest place he could. What you supposed that I thought? I wanted to refer to the fact that Rickert was unable to hate Griffith, because he hadn't seen the slaughter of BoH - he knew what happened, but he didn't "felt" that.

I can't speak for Aazealh, but before you replied I took it that you were implying that Rickert had sought out Falconia over some mad devotion to Griffith (which I guess you think Casca still feels?), which just isn't the case. He's extremely wary of his former leader and the circumstances he's in.
 
Quote
So what the speculation section was made for...?

Guessing at characters' feelings that have already been expressed is absolutely not the point of this section of the forum. It is about making informed theories about what may happen next in the series.

Quote
OK, in chapters 61 and 62 Casca tells how empty and meaningless her feelings for Griffith were

I think you have your numbering confused. Episodes 61 and 62 are in Volume 11 and involve Wyald's assault on the Falcons. I'm guessing you were referencing scanlations? Here's a handy reference for volume and episode numbers: http://www.skullknight.net/manga

Quote
Casca tells how meaningless her feelings for Griffith were, but she doesn't claim that they were fake

No one's said her feelings were fake. Just that they had changed.

Quote
she claims that she still worships him.

Please cite a volume, episode, and page number. Not sure what you're referring to out of hand.

Quote
To be honest, I can't find any page on which Casca denies her feelings for Griffith. You can post them if you want to help me...

You're misunderstanding. It's not that her feelings were false. They evolved. She no longer feels that way about Griffith. That's what the bulk of her soliloquies were about in volume 9.

Quote
I think that posting my bed-ridden grandma metaphore here once more is not necessary...

Oh, please! Let's bring Granny Griffith back into the mix!!!

Quote
I'm not native english speaker, sorry for this one. BTW, that's why I usually use past simple as I write about past, even if construction of the sentence requires other form - it's the most similar to the only past form I have in my native language.

We're an international forum, and used to people who don't speak English natively. You don't have to apologize for it. Aazealh likely meant that even after putting a non-English speaking filter on the sentence, it didn't make sense.

Quote
I know, and find nothing precluding in any of my posts

You know? Really? You were just wrong, and Aazealh pointed out your contradiction. Here's what you wrote: "That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after." Femto wasn't expressing restraint or choosing to wait to take a kingdom (God, this sounds so ridiculous...). He had to wait because key events hadn't yet transpired. I.E. the Millennial Incarnation Ceremony that would allow him to take a fleshly body. He had no option that we know of to descend as some shining god. The God Hand are noncorporeal.

Also, this notion of Griffith still wanting to be the knight in shining armor ruling his kingdom is truly misguided. I can only assume that you're also under the same spell most of humanity is when they look at Griffith. Achieving a kingdom was the dream of Griffith the man. Do you really think Femto: Wings of Darkness, a near god-like being who shed his humanity, still has only such a narrow-minded goal? The throne is merely the figurehead for the God Hand's campaign. Fulfilling that aspect of Griffith--the man's--wishes was a pebble on the path to their true goals. The way he obtained Falconia is proof of this.
 
Quote
What do you think about analyzing one's behavior and speculating about feelings? I thought this part of forum was made to do this...

It's utterly fruitless to speculate about things that are already known, and in fact it introduces misconceptions, muddying the waters of understanding for others. So please don't.

Quote
Argh, why you try to persuade me again that I wrote something I didn't? I wrote "he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts" and let's keep it in original form, without decorating it with adverbs of our choice, ok?

The "decoration" was appropriate. You only mentioned the positive aspects of Griffith's reflections while imprisoned, leading to a warped sense of what was truly happening in his mind. It's nice to know that you understand there was more going on in that scene though.

Quote
I don't claim that cherishing memories about friendship excludes hatred to an object, or madness of a subject. I recommend listening of Rammstein's "Mutter" - it describes combination of love, hatred and obsession perfectly. And very accurately in the reference to Griffith's situation.

Aazealh really doesn't need to be lectured to like this. Particularly not by using Rammstein as a primary source of emotional understanding...

Quote
Guts said "Why did I always realize it, when I already lost it..." enough times to think twice, I think.

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're implying.

Quote
Easy, he's Femto for only 3-4 years, and he still conquers his kingdom. Wait till he'd be the king for couple of years, and would be unable to get any satisfaction from his lifelong dream...

Sounds rather farfetched. Femto would seek out Guts out of boredom after ruling over humanity? Keep on believing that, I guess...

Quote
I find recommending me re-reading manga a little improper in the face of this...

Wow! Way to play your ace burn card at the wrong moment. Check the scene again. Sonia didn't have a dream about that scenario. She was merely telling a story she created about the "kite and the falcon" to whimsically relate her situation with Griffith.

Quote
It's true. But, on the other hand - was whole introducting into life of BoH ridiculous? Was Gaston's stories about his shop and Judeau's about his troup in vain? Perhaps. Or were they in the story to make us sympathize with Hawks, and to bring us more pain during the eclipse? Similar thing could be with Casca - to show all struggling with hellhound as desperate clinging to nothing but an illusion.

The two scenarios are not comparable. And without Casca, there would be nothing holding Guts back, and the story would be finished. Great manga...

Quote
Not sure if you noticed,

This is a terrible attitude for a starting member to take.  :femto:

Quote
but there's a moment in which hellhound teases Guts, that Casca's not what he wants really - his only real goal is vengeance, and taking care of Casca is just caressing wounds that Griffith inflicted him.

Yeah? So what? The Beast, which represents the darkest side of Guts' mind, tells him something that terrifies him -- a small part of him probably would gleefully unshackle his wholesome feelings and run into certain oblivion for a chance to snap his jaws at his nemesis. That doesn't mean it's Guts' true desire, once you take all his feelings into account. And do you honestly think that would make a suitable end for the series, given all of Guts' struggles?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Red Dingo on July 14, 2014, 06:52:26 PM
Of course Casca still loved Griffith, that's part of why the Eclipse was so traumatic. She just no longer held romantic feelings for him. Even though she loved Guts, Griffith was the still the very first individual who gave her a choice in life. Before she met him, she was a possession of her poor family sold into the hands of a lecherous noble. To her, that sword was the opportunity to take her life into her own hands. Even when she no longer desired to be his lover, she still revered and cherished him as a leader and liberator.

In fact that's likely why her rape was as traumatic as it had been. After watching her beloved comrades become a damned feast for horrific monstrosities along with being stripped and humiliated by said monstrosities, all at the will of their beloved leader, whom they had risked life and limb to save, the man she once trusted and loved above all else, the man who freed her, violates her in front of the one she chose to love. Any lingering romantic feelings she may have felt for Griffith would only amplify the trauma because it would juxtapose the man she once wanted to be with against the demon that was forcing himself on her and the awful reality they are one and the same.

Also the idea that she enjoyed her rape is quite ridiculous. Her body may have displayed signs of arousal, however that is a physiological effect which is not the same as psychological response. She would be feeling physical pleasure against her will and that would further torment her with confusion and shame, because it would be like her very body was betraying her. It would be pleasure coupled with the pain of the Brand. Mind you, even if she had once fantasized about being with Griffith, having that former wish granted in so twisted a way in front of Guts would make her feel deeply ashamed and self loathing.

All of this culminates into the kind of Post Traumatic Stress that takes years of therapy to treat. It's no wonder she regressed to such a childlike state.

Restoring her mind will involve confronting that reality. Most likely it will involve convincing her to accept the reality of what happened but cast off the shame, to hold Griffith responsible for the choices he made to betray them, and most importantly that even a world in which such horrible things happen is one worth living in. I think the visit to Skellig will mark a turning point in both Casca and Guts. Guts will see an image of Casca, the child, and himself as a family, he will realize that this is what she wants. To be with Guts and their son and raise him together.

Guts will at first be scared of this dream because he spent all of those years soaked in blood. He couldn't imagine himself as a father after being raised by such a terrible man as Gambino but he will reluctantly try to make her desire a reality. However, this will stir a desire to be a father, to give his son a better life and a better future than he had. This hope will ultimately be a light in his keeps him from being consumed by the Beast. This happens at least later down the line.

When her mind is restored, Casca and Guts will return to Midland to confront Griffith, not for vengeance, but to get their son back. The Schierke, Farnese, and the rest of the party will return as well but find themselves teaching humans an alternate way of surviving in Fantasia. One that does not rely on Falconia. It won't the reason they returned but it becomes a spanner in the designs of the God Hand.

When they return, they will confront Silat and the Bakiraka. Having fought to carve out a home for himself and his clan, Silat will be moved by Guts and Casca's goals and becomes their ally. Farnese will find herself the leader of a movement of humans who do not wish to join Falconia, instead using Schierke's teachings. Instead of being a symbol of witch hunters, she will endear normal humans to magic users. This will catch the attentions of the God Hand.

The big final confrontation will be preceded by a calmer Guts asking Griffith about what he said to Charlotte about a true friend. Though he still hasn't forgiven him, Guts will not fight Griffith for the sake of vengeance but because it is the only way to give his family a future. I think the series will end with Guts giving his life to free his son's body from Femto. An Act of Self Sacrifice. Whether or not he ultimately survives this will be ambiguous but his actions will have a profound effect on those who witness it. In the end, Femto will die though, possibly along with the rest of the God Hand. The Idea of Evil however, will still be around and act as though it is undefeated.

However, there will be hints of growing movement amongst humanity that could potentially change their nature for the better.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: PENumber2 on February 28, 2016, 06:19:26 PM
This is more How I Would Like Berserk to End.

All story lines and plot points seamlessly lead Guts and company back to Falconia where yet another Eclipse is happening. Griffith, still seeking his castle in the sky is sacrificing all of humanity, even the princess he married and her hand maiden. The God Hand stand over watching as the event unfolds.

Story lines involving Guts and the Berserker Armor will likely be resolved. I honestly don't think Guts will be able to use it for much longer. He'll probably use it to take down Griffith's generals and that will be it. Something will happen where he'll have to fight the armor or it will get destroyed. Casca will eventually get her memories back but be conflicted still about whether Guts or Griffith are the men she wants to be with.

Guts will have made their way up to the palm where a stand off with Griffith will take place. This however ruins the Skull Knight's plan and he comes in to stop Guts. I don't know what this plan will be, but it's a lot better than charging forward at five god-like beings. He strikes Guts unexpectedly to the ground calling him a fool to think he could take any of them on. The four God Hands laugh and remark on how unprepared they are for this. Griffith swoops down to take them on.

Guts in a blind rage impales the Skull Knight though his chest with his claymore, taking the Skull Knight completely off guard and dismounting him from his horse. The Skull Knight survives the blow but is powerless before Guts who now removes his claymore which is stained with Beherit juice and capable of slicing through the fabric of existence itself. The God Hand and even Guts himself is surprised by this. He swings his sword around creating all sorts of tears in the fabric of space and is able to kill Void, Slan, Conrad and Ubrik from a great distance away.

Guts then turns his attention on Griffith who squeezes his hand to crush Guts (and probably Skull Knight's horse) like an ant. Guts is trapped inside Griffith's grasp a moment but slicing through the fabric of space, Guts is able to escape at the cost of his sword which Griffith crushes down into nothing.

Guts charges at Griffith from another angle screaming his name. Griffith turns to crush him again but Guts already has his hand cannon out and blows Griffith's hand off, which surprises Griffith. Guts quickly tackles him to the ground and then we get at least 20 pages of Guts punching the shit out of Griffiths' face, his hands and then wrists, arms, face, and elbows becoming more bloodied with every blow. Part way through Casca (and maybe others) join the scene. At first they're happy to see Griffith get a pounding but that mood slowly changes as they see Guts in a blind rage still screaming and pulverizing Griffith's face into jelly. Eventually Casca goes over to Guts's side and tells him to stop. She points out he's dead already. He he's been dead and not moving for at least 5 pages now. Stop. Guts Stop it! You can stop now, Guts! And she lays a hand on Guts's shoulder. Guts quickly turns to her and punches her as hard as he could right in the face. Guts turns back to keep pounding on Griffith and then it sinks in exactly what he's done.

Casca, now bleeding from the nose and crying, gets up. Guts turns to her and stands. Guts is sweating and one the verge of tears himself. The two stand before one another just staring and finally, Casca says good bye and turns away. 

The God Hand structure as well as the city of Falonia begin collapsing as it sinks back with the earth, back to whatever realm it came from. Story lines with Zodd will have been resolved and he is now missing both horns. He comes to retrieve the Skull Knight who he looks on more as a friend now and perhaps gives Casca (and the others if they're there) a lift to safety.

Guts watches as they fly away and then realization sinks in. He falls to his knees and starts vomiting from the disgusting feeling of what he's done with his life all start to sink in. Following pages will likely summarizing the whole series as Guts comes to his senses. He goes and sits besides Griffiths corps... which he finds has torn open in the middle strangely. He reaches his arms down inside as if reaching into a portal to another world, he wraps his arms around what he finds and pulls out Griffith, alive and unharmed but in the form he was in after being tortured for years. Starved, frail, with his tendons cut, his tongue cut out. He is no longer Famto.

Together Griffith and Guts sit side by side and watch the world around them collapse. Griffith lays his head on Guts's shoulder and the series ends as the god hand itself closes around them and falls within the earth.

The End.


And just for fun the eventual Rule 34, Bara, version where Guts and Griffith (in his normal form) are about to 69.
Griffith: "I have your sword"
Guts: "Let me tell you something. In the bedroom this is how you use your mouth!" 
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on February 28, 2016, 07:09:31 PM
This is more How I Would Like Berserk to End.

All story lines and plot points seamlessly lead Guts and company back to Falconia where yet another Eclipse is happening.

Er, wait a minute. We're gonna time skip ~216 years? I mean, I guess Guts and co. could hang out on Skellig for awhile.

Edit: Oh god, I read the rest. I'll just leave it at that.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: PENumber2 on February 28, 2016, 07:22:54 PM
Er, wait a minute. We're gonna time skip ~216 years? I mean, I guess Guts and co. could hang out on Skellig for awhile.

Edit: Oh god, I read the rest.

That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least. Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after, and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age, but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on February 28, 2016, 07:30:34 PM
That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least.

How? Why? I don't follow this line of speculation...at all.

Quote
Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after

It's not?

Quote
and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age

He seems rather divine, and even has the full support of the Pontiff.

Quote
but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.

He also seems to have that under control. Not to mention there are plenty of monsters in the world for apostles to test their mettle against. Besides, look at what happened to the last apostle that stood against Griffith. I don't think he'll have too many problems keeping everyone in line.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MiyamotoPuck on February 28, 2016, 07:39:18 PM
That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least. Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after, and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age, but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.

Sort of, I understand Delta Phi's reaction. Without getting into the specifics of your ending, a lot of your ideas are either baseless or can't happen. I kinda picture what you're saying but it doesn't match with what we actually know about it. And for the rest I also agree with Delta Phi.

But I like your imagination! :)
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: PENumber2 on February 28, 2016, 08:00:52 PM
He seems rather divine, and even has the full support of the Pontiff.
He also seems to have that under control. Not to mention there are plenty of monsters in the world for apostles to test their mettle against. Besides, look at what happened to the last apostle that stood against Griffith. I don't think he'll have too many problems keeping everyone in line.

True, Griffith is very divine, so maybe the people won't question his age. And yes I guess he does have control over all the apostles... but honestly all the members of the God Hand don't strike me as being for the betterment of mankind. Something evil is going to happen in this city!

It's not?
Well if it is, things are really going to get awkward if Guts and the others ever get there. It's kind of hard to take vengeance out on someone who's solving all the world's problems. (Though we might get a few chapters where Griffith is giving Guts the grand tour.) If Griffith is never revealed to be the monster that he is then it's going to end with Guts being taken prisoner for lashing out and he'll probably be hanged to death from the same tree his mother gave birth to him under. Which would be poetic if nothing else but should happen after some sort of resolution to Griffith happens.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on February 28, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
but honestly all the members of the God Hand don't strike me as being for the betterment of mankind.

I think that's quite obvious. We, the readers, aren't meant to question Griffith's motives. We know he's evil. I've seen a lot of readers get tripped up on Falconia. They see Griffith's actions and assume he's trying to protect humanity from the monsters outside. But remember, Griffith is responsible for these monsters showing up in the first place (and thanks to a little help from SK). Now humanity is solely dependent on him. Setting fire to someone's house so that you can be the one to save them doesn't make you a hero.

Quote
Something evil is going to happen in this city!

I agree, but I doubt it'll have to do with another mass sacrifice (I don't really know where people get this idea). At this point, Griffith can rule however he sees fit. If anyone disagrees, then they can face the monsters outside.

Quote
It's kind of hard to take vengeance out on someone who's solving all the world's problems.

I think that's exactly what makes this so interesting.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: PENumber2 on February 28, 2016, 10:56:47 PM
I agree, but I doubt it'll have to do with another mass sacrifice (I don't really know where people get this idea). At this point, Griffith can rule however he sees fit. If anyone disagrees, then they can face the monsters outside.

Berserk: Volume 10, page 112. The princess tells the story of how the kingdom got it's name as they descend the tower to rescue Griffith. We learn about King Gaiseric who is almost certainly the Skull Knight, actually I think they confirm it in one of the issues. But then on page 118 someone accidentally drops a torch. And it lands on a pile of dead bodies who all have the brand on their four heads. The architecture is like a ruined roman city and when you look at Falconia there are sever buildings of a similar make. There's even a giant orb structure in the back (I think where he keeps all the apostles) that if raised up a bit to block out the sun, might manufacture an eclipse... though even I'll admit that's like something Mr. Burns tried to do on the Simpsons.

What we really need to know is what Griffith's motive is now that he has a kingdom.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on February 28, 2016, 11:29:56 PM
Berserk: Volume 10, page 112.

Yeah, I guess. Especially considering the whole karmic spiral business. But I would argue that the uniformity of the brand leads me to believe it wasn't a true eclipse ceremony. My current head canon is something to do with some kind of mock ritual by some fanatics. But who knows.

Quote
We learn about King Gaiseric who is almost certainly the Skull Knight, actually I think they confirm it in one of the issues.

They don't. But it's all but confirmed at this point.

Quote
There's even a giant orb structure in the back (I think where he keeps all the apostles) that if raised up a bit to block out the sun, might manufacture an eclipse...

Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. The mock eclipse card has already been played with Griffith's incarnation, but I guess it could happen again in some capacity.

Quote
What we really need to know is what Griffith's motive is now that he has a kingdom.

Yep! I find it hard to imagine he'll be content to just sit back and rule. Of course, we don't even know what the IoE's grand plan is.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 05, 2016, 02:52:05 PM
What we really need to know is what Griffith's motive is now that he has a kingdom.

His motive is to run his kingdom, there is no evidence that Griffith has any ulterior agenda.

"The Hawk has but one goal, you ( :guts:) should know it better than anyone"- :SK:
"I told you one before, I will get my own kingdom, nothing has changed" - :griffnotevil:


 That isn't to say his ambition wont become corrupted somehow like with Rosine's Misty Valley, but anyone anticipating some kind of Falconia Mega Eclipse shouldn't get their hopes up.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on March 05, 2016, 03:45:12 PM
His motive is to run his kingdom, there is no evidence that Griffith has any ulterior agenda.

It is painfully obvious that Griffith has an ulterior agenda besides "running his kingdom". But you're right that it won't involve a "Falconia Mega Eclipse", as you put it, for that would just be unimaginative.

P.S. PENumber2, that post of yours is really pretty bad.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: wizardshaman on March 10, 2016, 04:49:40 AM
I honestly just want the homie Guts to be happy. So I will take any ending that involves Guts being awarded for his pain and suffering with love and happiness, because he deserves it. He could become king or something but i see him at the end of his journey just going to the mountains with or without casca and sleeping.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Menosgade on March 10, 2016, 12:45:18 PM
 What I'd definitively most like to see as an ending is Casca and Guts again as a couple, without significant relationship problems. In this situation they'd probably stay in Elfhelm or in another elfs' house, such as Goddot's mine (maybe they can reform the place?) to avoid the problem of the brand as much as possible.

 I consider Casca will regain her sanity and stay with Guts. I'm also disconsidering what happens or not to Falconia, and the impact of Fantasia (the group doesn't know yet about the disastrous mainland nature).

 However, the other members of Guts' crew must be taken in the equation. Considering an optimistic ending; none of them are dead or severely injured, there are plenty of possibilities, even Puck may stop following Guts. This is how I see it:

1. Schierke may go on with Guts and Casca (if the group is dismantled) as she is still a kid and there isn't really reason for her to wander alone. That's considering the group as a whole or Guts don't have any specific good reason that motivates them to something in the mainland. Or she could stay in Elfhelm if she is accepted and finds the place pleasant, as it may be a very good place to learn magic from, as she has only been taught and developed by a single person.

2. Isidro would probably keep on following Guts, or at least return to mainland. He has a clear ambition of growing in swordsmanship, staying in Elfhelm for him may be like being stuck.

3. Serpico and Farnese have a good chance to stray from the group. Farnese wouldn't need to care for Casca anymore, and she's engaged with a noble, so they're likely to return to their homeland. Serpico would follow to protect her as he has always done. I don't think he would be so much impressed by something else to give up on that.

4. Azan would likely continue his life as a rogue knight in his lonely journey.

 Of course these are only general assumptions. They make sense, but making sense doesn't make something true, billions of things can happen and dramatically change the perceptions or course of the group or an individual.

He could become king or something but i see him at the end of his journey just going to the mountains with or without casca and sleeping.

 Personally I don't think that he as state man would fit at all. Guts doesn't care about people in general, he doesn't really get people's charm and in the current situation there no place for a king, as all banners are under Griffith.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 11, 2016, 03:39:26 PM
It is painfully obvious that Griffith has an ulterior agenda besides "running his kingdom". 

Again I'm open to Femto throwing a massive curve ball, But I don't see any evidence for it yet.

I think that's quite obvious. We, the readers, aren't meant to question Griffith's motives. We know he's evil. I've seen a lot of readers get tripped up on Falconia. They see Griffith's actions and assume he's trying to protect humanity from the monsters outside. But remember, Griffith is responsible for these monsters showing up in the first place (and thanks to a little help from SK). Now humanity is solely dependent on him. Setting fire to someone's house so that you can be the one to save them doesn't make you a hero.

He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.


If I had to guess my ideal ending for Berserk would be the death of the God Hand and IOE, humanity returns to it's own devices and polytheism returns to the world, it would be interesting to see Griffith redeem himself, it's too late for complete atonement, but maybe a last ditch effort to undo his mistakes somehow would allow Guts to find some kind of peace, more so than Guts actually killing him. It would be interesting to see the Skull Knight fight Guts as well, if the Moonlight boy is Guts' son who shares Griffiths vessel, then an enmity between Guts and SK might emerge, but there isn't any reason to believe they will at the moment, besides "Wouldn't it be really really awesome?".
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on March 11, 2016, 08:22:28 PM
Again I'm open to Femto throwing a massive curve ball, But I don't see any evidence for it yet.

There's no curve ball as far as the reader is concerned. Falconia and Fantasia were engineered for a purpose, and that purpose was not "to give Griffith his kingdom". It's not even a proper kingdom, as a matter of fact, but more of a city-state. Griffith could have just ruled Midland or anything else, but the God Hand and their master maneuvered from the very beginning, from before even Femto's incarnation, in order to create the current situation. Do you think it was a coincidence we saw a double page for each member of the God Hand when Fantasia came to be? It was not. Femto was not incarnated just so that he could have tea with Charlotte and play at being a good ruler. Femto, the wings of darkness. Femto, the one who will bring about the age of darkness. Femto whose soul is infused with evil. It is beyond naive at this point in the series to question whether the God Hand is anything but evil and scheming something sinister. And Femto is the God Hand's vanguard. So really, the evidence you're looking for is spread all over the series, and it starts in the Black Swordsman arc.

And if that wasn't enough, just think about the current situation. Basically 99% of what's left of humanity is living huddled inside those walls, you don't think that's the least bit suspicious? You don't think the narrative is being played very specifically to maximize people's dependency on the God Hand while emphasizing that everything else, and especially the astral world, is their enemy? And what about the fact people are being protected by apostles, monstrous creatures that Berserk as a series has spent 30+ volumes establishing as enemies of mankind? Didn't Rickert's brief trip into their ghastly lair tip you off that something sketchy was going on? What about Rakshas going after Rickert's head? Not a concern? An isolated incident? Come on.

He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.

Hah! Is he now? Humans desired Fantasia in the way that it persisted in their collective consciousness like a half-forgotten daydream, an ancient echo of what once was. But did humans want it like this? Did they want a supremely hostile world, one that only allows them to survive in a single place ruled over by the God Hand? Raban does not seem to think so. And neither do Rickert or Erika, and many others, I'm sure.

You say Femto and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, but it's really not quite that simple. For one thing, if they had no agenda, they wouldn't be interfering directly with the world like they're doing, inserting themselves into it. And they're not neutrally granting people's wishes either, there's always an evil twist to everything they do. Even the Idea of Evil in episode 83 makes it clear what it's all about (hence its name). It provides reasons for the bad things that keep happening. Saying mankind's suffering is irrelevant means you're fundamentally mistaken about the nature of the Idea of Evil and its servants.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Menosgade on March 11, 2016, 08:52:58 PM
He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.

 How would humanity ever desire that? The Fantasia world is full of pain and likely inhabitable for humanity. It's a complete mess. The creatures of Fantasia themselves hardly have niches, it's survival of the biggest until there's nothing else.

 You could however be talking about the Falconian life of the Fantasia world. Prosperous, secure, organized, a place to thrive. Much more than the empire world before it, definitively. In this sense I kinda agree with you, but it doesn't seem to be IoE's purpose to give humanity what it desires, even this miraculous city was baptized in war, and has very dubious entrails. It gave for a price, Femto's birth at the eclipse, Femto's incarnation on the physical plane, Femto's participation on the war to rally his followers and the Fantasia itself, which vastly increase the numbers under his banner.

 Also, it's possible to say humanity doesn't really desire that, but desires things as they already were. People subjugating one another in a selfish world, how many peasants wouldn't want to be in the place of a noble?

 IoE for sure has more pain to bring, it's what it does. Violence, pain, desires. This brief relief humanity received makes them think positively, but this probably will make the next pain even greater, as humanity remember it the hard way. I wouldn't be surprise if few people survive Falconia.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on March 11, 2016, 10:26:18 PM
How would humanity ever desire that? The Fantasia world is full of pain and likely inhabitable for humanity. It's a complete mess. The creatures of Fantasia themselves hardly have niches, it's survival of the biggest until there's nothing else.

See episode 306, but also what I just said above your post.

You could however be talking about the Falconian life of the Fantasia world. Prosperous, secure, organized, a place to thrive. Much more than the empire world before it, definitively.

If Falconia works, it's also because there's no alternative. People simply don't have a choice. Whether everyone will thrive there long term also remains to be seen. It might be that each person has their place and should keep it.

IoE for sure has more pain to bring, it's what it does. Violence, pain, desires. This brief relief humanity received makes them think positively, but this probably will make the next pain even greater, as humanity remember it the hard way. I wouldn't be surprise if few people survive Falconia.

Humanity not surviving is unlikely to be the desired outcome. Absolute control of mankind, though? That may be closer to the truth.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 14, 2016, 09:25:46 PM
There's no curve ball as far as the reader is concerned. Falconia and Fantasia were engineered for a purpose, and that purpose was not "to give Griffith his kingdom". It's not even a proper kingdom, as a matter of fact, but more of a city-state. Griffith could have just ruled Midland or anything else, but the God Hand and their master maneuvered from the very beginning, from before even Femto's incarnation, in order to create the current situation. Do you think it was a coincidence we saw a double page for each member of the God Hand when Fantasia came to be? It was not. Femto was not incarnated just so that he could have tea with Charlotte and play at being a good ruler. Femto, the wings of darkness. Femto, the one who will bring about the age of darkness. Femto whose soul is infused with evil. It is beyond naive at this point in the series to question whether the God Hand is anything but evil and scheming something sinister. And Femto is the God Hand's vanguard. So really, the evidence you're looking for is spread all over the series, and it starts in the Black Swordsman arc.

I'm not denying the God Hands malevolence, or Griffith's darker nature, such a ruthless person wouldn't be where he was if he didn't embrace evil. But he encapsulates light and dark, he is both the saviour and bane of the Berserk world, the Idea of Evil even gave him a choice "May you bring pain or salvation to makind" (Anyone who has better translations can correct me on this)



Quote
And if that wasn't enough, just think about the current situation. Basically 99% of what's left of humanity is living huddled inside those walls, you don't think that's the least bit suspicious? You don't think the narrative is being played very specifically to maximize people's dependency on the God Hand while emphasizing that everything else, and especially the astral world, is their enemy?

The God Hands whereabouts are unknown, Midland is only dependent on Griffith. And I don't think Griffith is concerned with turning public opinion against an island of besieged witches miles away, Armed with scarecrows and a wicker man.

 
Quote
And what about the fact people are being protected by apostles, monstrous creatures that Berserk as a series has spent 30+ volumes establishing as enemies of mankind?

The apostles that once raped and pillaged at their leisure who now direct their bloodthirstiness to defending Falconia's borders, and are safely segregated from the rest of the population in their Thunderdome. 


Quote
What about Rakshas going after Rickert's head? Not a concern? An isolated incident? Come on.

I think Rakshas was acting on his own, he thought Rickert was easy prey and the fight got out of hand with the help of the Bakiraka, I think if Griffith really wanted to have Rickert killed he wouldn't have let Rickert and his crew escape on Garuda, he would have sent Zodd and the demon air force to pursue them. Anyway this is anecdotal, I'm not trying to attribute good intentions to the apostles or God Hand.


 
Quote
Hah! Is he now? Humans desired Fantasia in the way that it persisted in their collective consciousness like a half-forgotten daydream, an ancient echo of what once was. But did humans want it like this? Did they want a supremely hostile world, one that only allows them to survive in a single place ruled over by the God Hand? Raban does not seem to think so. And neither do Rickert or Erika, and many others, I'm sure.

Yes they did, humans in the Berserk world desire suffering , It's kind of like a scene in one of my favourite sitcoms Red Dwarf,  Rimmer is in a perfect reality where he can experience his fantasies come to life, but as a pessimist he can't stop imagining bad things happening to him, and eventually ends up buried neck deep with jam smothered on his face to be eaten alive by ants.

In the same way the human race of the Berserk world don't wish to end their suffering , they want absurd justifications for their suffering that surpass the mundane suffering of famine, disease and destitution, fantastic gradients of suffering in the form of monsters and demons, a distopia is more vivid and realistic than a Utopia. The Milenium Falcon arc has a lot of ties to human myth and religion, Ganishka is the anti Christ/Mara/Hades, the all encompassing evil. Griffith is Jesus/Gilgamesh/Heracles, the demigod savior of mankind , and Ganishkas second incarnation represents the apocalypse, a masochistic fantasy in many religions.


Quote
You say Femto and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, but it's really not quite that simple. For one thing, if they had no agenda they wouldn't be interfering directly with the world like they're doing, inserting themselves into it. And they're not neutrally granting people's wishes either, there's always an evil twist to everything they do. 

On the contrary, the God hand are probably chosen because their agendas in some way suit the Idea of Evil, self inserting themselves into God's will doesn't mean undermining it, both the IOE and the God Hand encourage free expression. "Do as thou wilt".

There's an evil twist to everything they do I agree, but most apostles who have their wishes granted are ecstatic, Rosine, Wyald, Mozgus, the snake Baron, they love being demons, there are very few apostles appealing to the God Hand to exchange their monster penis bodies. 



 
Quote
Even the Idea of Evil in episode 83 makes it clear what it's all about (hence its name). It provides reasons for the bad things that keep happening. Saying mankind's suffering is irrelevant means you're fundamentally mistaken about the nature of the Idea of Evil and its servants.


I said individual suffering is irrelevant to the IOE, the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind, not individuals, the refugees as a collective wanted the birth of their savior Femto/Griffith, but as individuals they didn't want to be buried alive and digested by specter blobs. It's like when Isidro asks why humanity simply doesn't reject their desire to believe in fantasy and Schierke rebuts him by saying the human subconsciousness isn't something humans have any control over.


Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on March 14, 2016, 10:20:04 PM
I'm not denying the God Hands malevolence, or Griffith's darker nature, such a ruthless person wouldn't be where he was if he didn't embrace evil. But he encapsulates light and dark, he is both the saviour and bane of the Berserk world, the Idea of Evil even gave him a choice "May you bring pain or salvation to makind" (Anyone who has better translations can correct me on this)

Episode 83 is not officially part of the series. It was removed from it. Also, it's been made amply clear, like by the prophecy, that the "Falcon of Light" is a deception. Lastly, the very name "Idea of Evil" should be enough to make you doubt any velleities of bringing salvation to mankind.

The God Hands whereabouts are unknown, Midland is only dependent on Griffith. And I don't think Griffith is concerned with turning public opinion against an island of besieged witches miles away, Armed with scarecrows and a wicker man.

Midland does not exist anymore. The entire astral world is not the Island of Skellig. Skellig is not just "miles away", nor is it besieged, nor should it be summarized as being "armed with scarecrows and a wicker man" (which have been destroyed anyway). And the goal isn't to turn ordinary people against the astral world so much as to cement their dependency on the God Hand. And Griffith is a member of the God Hand, lest you've forgotten. Clearly you don't seem to be arguing rationally here.
 
The apostles that once raped and pillaged at their leisure who now direct their bloodthirstiness to defending Falconia's borders, and are safely segregated from the rest of the population in their Thunderdome.

I see you have learned literally nothing from 30+ volumes establishing what the apostles' nature is. Nor from Locus' speech to Rickert about it mere episodes ago. Hilarious "thunderdome" reference, by the way.

I think Rakshas was acting on his own, he thought Rickert was easy prey and the fight got out of hand with the help of the Bakiraka, I think if Griffith really wanted to have Rickert killed he wouldn't have let Rickert and his crew escape on Garuda, he would have sent Zodd and the demon air force to pursue them. Anyway this is anecdotal, I'm not trying to attribute good intentions to the apostles or God Hand.

Just read again what you said just above. The apostles are now defending blablabla and safely segregated blablabla. This is a direct counterexample.
 
Yes they did, humans in the Berserk world desire suffering

No, you're misquoting episode 83. What the Idea of Evil says is this:

Humans desired reasons.
Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd.
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.


Humans did not desire suffering. Please don't reply without at least making sure you know what you're talking about.

In the same way the human race of the Berserk world don't wish to end their suffering , they want absurd justifications for their suffering that surpass the mundane suffering of famine, disease and destitution, fantastic gradients of suffering in the form of monsters and demons, a distopia is more vivid and realistic than a Utopia.

Completely baseless extrapolation that seems to purposely ignore what is shown to us in the story, as well as what the Idea of Evil's philosophy is.

The Milenium Falcon arc has a lot of ties to human myth and religion, Ganishka is the anti Christ/Mara/Hades, the all encompassing evil. Griffith is Jesus/Gilgamesh/Heracles, the demigod savior of mankind , and Ganishkas second incarnation represents the apocalypse, a masochistic fantasy in many religions.

I can't believe anyone with an ounce of historical or mythological knowledge could manage to get the references this completely wrong. Griffith is so obviously meant to be a false savior that it pains me to have to point it out. Herakles? Reaaaally? And let's not even talk about the rest.

On the contrary, the God hand are probably chosen because their agendas in some way suit the Idea of Evil, self inserting themselves into God's will doesn't mean undermining it, both the IOE and the God Hand encourage free expression. "Do as thou wilt".

It's the other way around. The God Hand's entire lives as humans were conceived so that they would become what they are. That is what Griffith is told in episode 83, which you keep referring to. I also didn't say they were inserting themselves into "God's will". I said they were inserting themselves into the corporeal world. They are, by definition, doing the Idea of Evil's bidding. That's why they're called the "God Hand", the hand of god. They can do whatever they want, but they were engineered so that what they want serves the Idea of Evil's purpose.

There's an evil twist to everything they do I agree, but most apostles who have their wishes granted are ecstatic, Rosine, Wyald, Mozgus, the snake Baron, they love being demons, there are very few apostles appealing to the God Hand to exchange their monster penis bodies.

This is irrelevant to what I was saying. Yes, after being transformed into evil monsters, the evil monsters relish their evil monstrousness. Was there ever more than that to Rochine or the Count's characters? Who cares, right? Oh and by the way, Mozgus wasn't an apostle.

I said individual suffering is irrelevant to the IOE, the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind, not individuals

Individual suffering is a necessary component of mankind's suffering in general. The Idea of Evil is in each and every human's heart. Also, saying the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind is without much ground. It was created from the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness. Since then, it's weaved the destinies of men. Clearly, given how it has reshaped the world, it is a master more than a servant. A god, in fact.

So, as I was telling you earlier, why do you think the world is as it is right now? Why do you think humans are made to desperately rely on the God Hand and apostles for survival against the outside world? Why is the astral world, a force that can rival the God Hand's, made to be an absolute enemy? Humans used to know magic and could presumably live in that world, long ago. Maybe they were allied with the nice astral beings against the bad ones. But now, they blindly rely on the power of evil. A power based only on mankind. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't without reason. This is the agenda.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: VengeanceQuest982 on March 16, 2016, 03:33:28 AM
...If I had to guess on how BERSERK would end I would have to say it would end with :
- The Death of The God Hand and the end of The Idea of Evil giving rise to a religious revival supplanting The Idea of Evil and The God Hand but whose action in time would cause The Idea of Evil's 2nd Coming.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aulë on March 16, 2016, 04:54:57 AM
but whose action in time would cause The Idea of Evil's 2nd Coming.

I don't know how Berserk will end, and I can't guess either, but this particular ending you said would not satisfy me. Not because it's a "bad" ending but it's somewhat of the overused "everything will repeat itself" ending.

Don't misunderstand me. This ending is very fitting in many movies or stories, especially "mindfuck" ones.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: VengeanceQuest982 on March 16, 2016, 07:29:58 AM
A Line from Clive Barker's Weaveworld comes to mind when thinking about BERSERK

“And this story, having no beginning, will have no end.”

We've read and followed the journey of characters from The Blackswordsman - Falconia but this is not the beginning. The world of Berserk we've ready is but a fragment of its full tale and so it will have no true end though not in the way I or others might like it to have.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on March 16, 2016, 11:39:31 AM
We've read and followed the journey of characters from The Blackswordsman - Falconia but this is not the beginning. The world of Berserk we've ready is but a fragment of its full tale and so it will have no true end though not in the way I or others might like it to have.

I don't know about that. Berserk is first and foremost the story of Guts. It started with him and so will it end.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 29, 2016, 10:46:23 AM
Episode 83 is not officially part of the series. It was removed from it.

Yeah, but by the way various characters describe the God of the Berserk world, it's obvious that it is the Idea of Evil or at least an equivalent entity. Void calls it the God born of man, Flora states the behilits were sent by a master, during the menlium ceremony both Puck and the Beherit apostle refer to a collective will demanding the rebirth of Griffith. Miura had no intention of ever letting the chapter be republished, so there is no incentive to cover up the story or retcon it.

Quote
Also, it's been made amply clear, like by the prophecy, that the "Falcon of Light" is a deception. Lastly, the very name "Idea of Evil" should be enough to make you doubt any velleities of bringing salvation to mankind


Neither the God Hand nor Griffith are deceptive, Griffith makes no effort to hide his extraordinary abilities, nor his war demons from his human subjects, he has been legitimatised by the Pope and the princess. He is the saviour the human race asked for and he has fulfilled that task. Even apostles who are aware of Femto recognition him as the hawk of light, he appears to Zodd as a shining hawk, reincarnated Ganishka views him beneath massive wings of light.

Let me be clear that salvation doesn’t necessarily mean sunshine and unicorns, what form salvation represents is up to the human race to decide, if the desired world is one with gradients of beauty and terror, then that is the world they get. The Idea of Evil is not in of itself evil, it is the “Idea” of evil, because the human race wanted the kind of evil represented in their myths and repressed selves.


Quote
Midland does not exist anymore. The entire astral world is not the Island of Skellig. Skellig is not just "miles away", nor is it besieged, nor should it be summarized as being "armed with scarecrows and a wicker man" (which have been destroyed anyway). And the goal isn't to turn ordinary people against the astral world so much as to cement their dependency on the God Hand. And Griffith is a member of the God Hand, lest you've forgotten. Clearly you don't seem to be arguing rationally here.

Thanks for clarifying that, I misunderstood you.
 
 
Quote
I see you have learned literally nothing from 30+ volumes establishing what the apostles' nature is. Nor from Locus' speech to Rickert about it mere episodes ago. Hilarious "thunderdome" reference, by the way.

"If the hawk did not lead them, apostles would follow their own selfish desires" We both agree on this, apostles are hedonistic monsters.

Quote
Just read again what you said just above. The apostles are now defending blablabla and safely segregated blablabla. This is a direct counterexample.

No it's not, the apostles may be horrible creatures but they're part of his kingdom too, he took them in and gave them a purpose, Griffith cannot change their nature, but he has extraordinary influence over them and his generals obey him without question, so long as their lust for mayhem is kindled they wont harm the humans.

Quote
No, you're misquoting episode 83. What the Idea of Evil says is this:

Humans desired reasons.
Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd.
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.


Humans did not desire suffering. Please don't reply without at least making sure you know what you're talking about.

Accurate translations of that chapter are hard to come by, but what I said was still accurate.


Quote
Completely baseless extrapolation that seems to purposely ignore what is shown to us in the story, as well as what the Idea of Evil's philosophy is.

I can't believe anyone with an ounce of historical or mythological knowledge could manage to get the references this completely wrong. Griffith is so obviously meant to be a false savior that it pains me to have to point it out. Herakles? Reaaaally? And let's not even talk about the rest.


I was giving examples of demi gods that appear a lot in human culture, thematically Griffith is more like a Jesus figure than Heracles. And Griffith is a figure in the Berserk religion, as are the other God Hand. Silat calls incarnate Ganishka Shiva, his towering presence makes many characters exclaim that the “reason of the world has ended”. Ganishka was a follower of the God Hand and has turned away from them, he makes a mockery of the one true god, he wants to rein humans under an empire of terror, he is an anti christ figure, or at least the chosen enemy for Griffith to face, you can't get any more powerful than the ruler of the most powerful empire on Earth and the most powerful apostle in existence. Humans write the script and Griffith plays it out, the Skull Knight even makes reference that Griffith like a character in his own story.

Quote
It's the other way around. The God Hand's entire lives as humans were conceived so that they would become what they are. That is what Griffith is told in episode 83, which you keep referring to. I also didn't say they were inserting themselves into "God's will". I said they were inserting themselves into the corporeal world. They are, by definition, doing the Idea of Evil's bidding. That's why they're called the "God Hand", the hand of god. They can do whatever they want, but they were engineered so that what they want serves the Idea of Evil's purpose.
 

I agree with this, the paradox of free will is a topic that comes up a lot in the Berserk.

Quote
This is irrelevant to what I was saying. Yes, after being transformed into evil monsters, the evil monsters relish their evil monstrousness. Was there ever more than that to Rochine or the Count's characters? Who cares, right?.

Well you phrased it as if the God Hand are tricking people by turning them into demons, but they are fulfilling their desires.

There is more to them, but frankly it doesn’t matter, their enrolment involves cracking open the supressed dark emotions inside of them and sacrificing their loved ones to embrace that darker self, their malice hatred and lust are magnified, but it’s not as if it didn’t exist in the first place, Rosine and the Count wanted their loved ones dead for betraying them.



 
Quote
Individual suffering is a necessary component of mankind's suffering in general. The Idea of Evil is in each and every human's heart. Also, saying the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind is without much ground. It was created from the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness. Since then, it's weaved the destinies of men. Clearly, given how it has reshaped the world, it is a master more than a servant. A god, in fact.

But it does not act out of selfishness, everything it does is in accordance with the wishes of humanity, it has no individual will. Just because it’s powerful doesn’t mean it’s a dictator.

Quote
So, as I was telling you earlier, why do you think the world is as it is right now? ( Human will) Why do you think humans are made to desperately rely on the God Hand and apostles for survival against the outside world? (Because humans are driven to embrace monotheism)


Why is the astral world, a force that can rival the God Hand's, made to be an absolute enemy? (Creatures on their own are not the abosulte enemy of the God Hand.)


 Humans used to know magic and could presumably live in that world, long ago. Maybe they were allied with the nice astral beings against the bad ones. But now, they blindly rely on the power of evil. A power based only on mankind. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't without reason. This is the agenda.


It’s not the astral world itself that is at odds with the God Hand, rather the agents on the spectrum that they exist which are at odds with their desires, witches in Berserk view magic as a pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the worlds beyond the physical realm, the polytheistic gods represent elemental forces of nature, the magic of the god hand in contrast is centered around the fulfillment of human will, the Holy See acts as a proxy to suppress the influence of Polytheism and magic for this reason. In short the astral beings act in favour of the forces of nature and not human nature. Also The God Hand can only govern the physical world, they have no control of the astral world, giving figures like Flora, SK and to a lesser extent Guts the ability to fight against them.


I think where we differ is that you believe the God Hand are lying to the world, they’re pretending to act in the interests of humanity but are secretly plotting to create hell on Earth, and Griffith is waiting reveal his grand deception.

And I think there is no deception in either the God Hand or Griffith, that fantasia is something humans truly wanted, and Griffiths goal is to create a kingdom where is subjects live in happiness, not to suddenly turn cruel and rule them like a dictator.

Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Lithrael on March 29, 2016, 01:41:49 PM
I think where we differ is that you believe the God Hand are lying to the world, they’re pretending to act in the interests of humanity but are secretly plotting to create hell on Earth, and Griffith is waiting reveal his grand deception.

And I think there is no deception in either the God Hand or Griffith, that fantasia is something humans truly wanted, and Griffiths goal is to create a kingdom where is subjects live in happiness, not to suddenly turn cruel and rule them like a dictator.

You are mistaken.  Griffith is not even slightly a Jesus figure.  He's an antichrist figure.  Like, plain as day he's an antichrist figure.  He's even got a powerful classic-vampire Charisma field that forces humans to feel like they totally love and trust this guy while they are near him.  He's not even a Veidt-like guy doing all this terrible shit because he believes it is necessary to save humanity, or a Beherit-Apostle-like guy doing it because he believes the world is too awful and someone needs to burn it all down and try something else.  The very last time he genuinely thought about other people was when the God Hand suggested that giving up his dreams would mean that those who had fallen in his struggle in the past would have died in vain, and that made him feel terrible.  And he saved himself from the idea of having led friends to die in vain for his now-failed dream, by murdering more friends to keep his dream going.  It was a perverse way to deal with that pain.  And even that pain was burned away when he became Femto.  It's gone.  He's in it for himself now.  If there are happy people it's because he wants pet happy people.   

You say there is no deception but has he said "By the way, the way the countryside is filled with monsters now?  Yep, down to me, part of my big plan, it'll all be for the best I promise?" It's a pretty big lie of omission.  As Delta Phi and others in the past have said: rescuing people from harm you've caused entirely on purpose expressly so that you can rescue them and thus gain their gratitude?  It is an evil act.  If you set fire to someone's house, and then save them from the fire - and let them believe you have just saved them from a freak accident - that is a deception

I don't understand how you can think that a plan whose steps include causing 99% of the world to be overrun with fuckoff bloodthirsty fantasy monsters is in the interests of humanity.  Unless you're casting Griffith as Noah and his fancy little city is Noah's Ark, with the entire rest of the world drowned.  Drowned in powerful, bloodthirsty fantasy monsters. 

If you're interested in the Idea of Evil's endgame specifically, I made an IOE post over in aiguille's thread the other day that's more or less pointed at that question.  http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14962.msg239865#msg239865
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on March 29, 2016, 02:04:12 PM
Seriously, Wenliinvictus, you're as blind as the people within Falconia's walls.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 30, 2016, 11:55:44 AM
Quote
You are mistaken.  Griffith is not even slightly a Jesus figure.  He's an antichrist figure.  Like, plain as day he's an antichrist figure.  He's even got a powerful classic-vampire Charisma field that forces humans to feel like they totally love and trust this guy while they are near him. 

That’s because humans instinctively recognize him as their desired savior, even Guts, the man that has the most reason in the world to hate Griffith is not immune to this effect, Miura spells it out very clearly when Griffith is reborn. Where does the deception come in?

Quote
He's not even a Veidt-like guy doing all this terrible shit because he believes it is necessary to save humanity, or a Beherit-Apostle-like guy doing it because he believes the world is too awful and someone needs to burn it all down and try something else.

He’s kind of like Vedit, he’s incredibly talented and has decided to adopt the role of a saviour despite what pain and suffering he may cause, they both have their obstacles the have to overcome, Veidt’s is the growing threat of the cold war, Griffith’s is to achieve the IOEs goal of the ideal world demanded by humanity.

 
Quote
The very last time he genuinely thought about other people was when the God Hand suggested that giving up his dreams would mean that those who had fallen in his struggle in the past would have died in vain, and that made him feel terrible.  And he saved himself from the idea of having led friends to die in vain for his now-failed dream, by murdering more friends to keep his dream going.  It was a perverse way to deal with that pain.  And even that pain was burned away when he became Femto.  It's gone.  He's in it for himself now.  If there are happy people it's because he wants pet happy people.   

His humanity is gone, and he’s a much more transcendental entity than he was as a human, but his dream still remains, it’s all that remains of his humanity.

It wasn’t a way to deal with his pain, it was self preservation, he was at a crossroads where he was forced to choose between his comrades and his dream and he chose the latter. He’s become a God Hand so that he can carry on pursuing his that dream. He may have shed his humanity but he is still a being that pursues what he yearned for as a human, all apostles do it.


Quote
You say there is no deception but has he said "By the way, the way the countryside is filled with monsters now?  Yep, down to me, part of my big plan, it'll all be for the best I promise?" It's a pretty big lie of omission.  As Delta Phi and others in the past have said: rescuing people from harm you've caused entirely on purpose expressly so that you can rescue them and thus gain their gratitude?  It is an evil act.  If you set fire to someone's house, and then save them from the fire - and let them believe you have just saved them from a freak accident - that is a deception. 

 I don't understand how you can think that a plan whose steps include causing 99% of the world to be overrun with fuckoff bloodthirsty fantasy monsters is in the interests of humanity.  Unless you're casting Griffith as Noah and his fancy little city is Noah's Ark, with the entire rest of the world drowned.  Drowned in powerful, bloodthirsty fantasy monsters. 

Let me put it this way then, a lunatic comes across a genie lamp, he summons the genie, the lunatic begs the him to burn his house down and the genie grants his wish, the house is cinders, and the man frolics in the rubble, is the genie being dishonest? Is the genie doing wrong by the man even though he’s compelled to obey him?

If humanity wants a world over run with fuckoff monsters as you put it, humanity gets a world with fuckoff monsters. That’s how IOE works, what humanity as a collective wants is horrifying, that is why the Abyss and the God Hand are so dangerous, they are obeying a collective will that is self-destructive, again I have to ask, where does the deception come in?


Quote
If you're interested in the Idea of Evil's endgame specifically, I made an IOE post over in aiguille's thread the other day that's more or less pointed at that question.

I read it, and you explained it with greater clarity than I did, humanity’s reason for suffering now comes as cool ass monsters rather than the mundane and pointless suffering humanity is used to. But if you understand that why do you believe that the IOE doesn’t do what human will commands it to do?


Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Oburi on March 30, 2016, 03:19:06 PM
If humanity wants a world over run with fuckoff monsters as you put it, humanity gets a world with fuckoff monsters. That’s how IOE works, what humanity as a collective wants is horrifying, that is why the Abyss and the God Hand are so dangerous, they are obeying a collective will that is self-destructive, again I have to ask, where does the deception come in?
 humanity’s reason for suffering now comes as cool ass monsters rather than the mundane and pointless suffering humanity is used to. But if you understand that why do you believe that the IOE doesn’t do what human will commands it to do?

Dude, you're really having a tough time understanding the concept of the God Hand and IOE. You seem to think that IOE and the God Hand are obeying humanties collective will. Or that they are following what humanity commands them to do. That is totally backwords.

Once upon a time, humans desired reasons for all the negative things in life. Pain, sadness, suffering, their own sensless deaths. This is where the Idea of Evil was created. However, it has become so powerful that it is now its own entity. It is not a slave to humans consciousness or anything like that. In fact, it is now controlling the destinies of mankind, to serve it's own purpose, which we as readers do not yet know to what extent.

Comparing the IOE to a genie in a bottle is just retarded. It has purposefully and specifically designed things so that the God Hand and the Apostles would come to serve it, obediently, while also doing own their own bidding and following their own path. This is where the deception comes in and it's a display of how powerful IOE is. Not only that, but since the "merger" (the overlapping of the Astral world and Corporeal world) humans must now rely on the God Hand and the Apostles to keep them safe from the dangers of the Astral world. Again, they are being deceived. Needing the truly evil beings of the world as their protectors. 

Humans are not desiring the monsters or all the pain and destruction they bring. All that is a result of the will and control that the Idea of EVIL has woven for it's own desire.  And rest assured that it is not to "create an ideal world demanded by humanity".  Do you understand this?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on March 31, 2016, 06:03:51 PM
 
Quote
Dude, you're really having a tough time understanding the concept of the God Hand and IOE. You seem to think that IOE and the God Hand are obeying humanities collective will. Or that they are following what humanity commands them to do. That is totally backwards.

Once upon a time, humans desired reasons for all the negative things in life. Pain, sadness, suffering, their own senseless deaths. This is where the Idea of Evil was created.

Okay.

Quote
However, it has become so powerful that it is now its own entity.

That isn’t correct, it isn’t its own entity, the IOE is a gestalt entity that obeys human will, when asked what it wants by Griffith, IOE replies “Do as I command lord Femto, my young apprentice” oh wait. No, what it actually says is “Do as thou wilt, my desire is your desire” He gives Femto the agency to carry out his task, he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.

Quote
  It is not a slave to humans consciousness or anything like that. In fact, it is now controlling the destinies of mankind, to serve it's own purpose, which we as readers do not yet know to what extent.

That’s because it does not have its own purpose, there is no evidence to suggest it has its own purpose. If it did why would it bother with the tedious and long task of building a quintet of demons over the span of a thousand years? Why is it dependent on behilits, sacrificial ceremonies and the God Hand to carry out its will? Why does it do nothing but grant wishes if it is selfish?

Quote
  Comparing the IOE to a genie in a bottle is just retarded. It has purposefully and specifically designed things so that the God Hand and the Apostles would come to serve it, obediently, while also doing own their own bidding and following their own path. This is where the deception comes in and it's a display of how powerful IOE is. Not only that, but since the "merger" (the overlapping of the Astral world and Corporeal world) humans must now rely on the God Hand and the Apostles to keep them safe from the dangers of the Astral world. Again, they are being deceived. Needing the truly evil beings of the world as their protectors.


Are you saying the characters in Berserk have no agency of their own because their destinies are weaved by the Idea of Evil? It’s true the Idea of Evil weaved their destinies, but you’re only claiming it's deception because you morally object to what the IOE is doing, but this is what humans want, every character is following their own path based on their own will in the context that destiny gives them, you may view that as unfair, but it is not dishonest.


 
Quote
  Humans are not desiring the monsters or all the pain and destruction they bring. All that is a result of the will and control that the Idea of EVIL has woven for it's own desire.


No it isn’t, you said it yourself, humans desired reasons for their suffering and the IOE was birthed from that ingrained yearning, it did not weave its own origin.


 
Quote
  And rest assured that it is not to "create an ideal world demanded by humanity".  Do you understand this?
 

Why is it referred to as the “Desired god”, why is Griffith referred to as the “Desired”, why is Fantasia referred to as the “Desired world” somebody is desiring these things, it's undeniable.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Rupert Sinclair on March 31, 2016, 06:19:06 PM

he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.


:ganishka:
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: jackson_hurley on March 31, 2016, 07:54:18 PM
Well this thread as derived a lot from what it's supposed to talk about and is starting to be a big waste of time imo.

I'd suggest many many reread....
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on April 02, 2016, 04:41:43 PM
Well this thread as derived a lot from what it's supposed to talk about and is starting to be a big waste of time imo.

I'd suggest many many reread....

My bad, I shouldn't have dragged it on for this long, but I wanted to defend my views to those who made the effort to reply to me, I've enjoyed the discussion I've had, but in retrospect I should have made it my own thread.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: JMP on April 02, 2016, 10:56:41 PM
I hope you don't mind if I drag it out a bit more.  :slan: This is some pretty heavy stuff! It's been interesting and a little frustrating to think about.  :ganishka: I do believe that the IOE has a purpose of its own and that it's not in the best interests of humanity. Here are a few thoughts I had about what you were saying, Wenliinvictus.

That isn’t correct, it isn’t its own entity, the IOE is a gestalt entity that obeys human will
Just because the IOE might be a gestalt entity doesn't mean that it necessarily obeys human will. The definition of gestalt is “something that is made of many parts and yet is somehow more than or different from the combination of its parts”. I think that's the case with the IOE. I think it has become more than or different from the human desire for reasons that first birthed it.

Quote
when asked what it wants by Griffith, IOE replies “Do as I command lord Femto, my young apprentice” oh wait. No, what it actually says is “Do as thou wilt, my desire is your desire” He gives Femto the agency to carry out his task, he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.
That quote itself expresses that the IOE has desire. Just because it says it's desire is the same as Femto's doesn't mean it has no desire of it's own, it could just mean that their desires are the same.

Quote
That’s because it does not have its own purpose, there is no evidence to suggest it has its own purpose. If it did why would it bother with the tedious and long task of building a quintet of demons over the span of a thousand years? Why is it dependent on behilits, sacrificial ceremonies and the God Hand to carry out its will?
All the things you mentioned, the God Hand, the beherits, the ceremonies, imply to me that the IOE DOES have it's own purpose. I just don't think a nebulous subconscious conglomeration of human will could have planned and engineered all that. I think these things suggest that it would have to have a will of it's own.

Quote
Why is it referred to as the “Desired god”, why is Griffith referred to as the “Desired”, why is Fantasia referred to as the “Desired world” somebody is desiring these things, it's undeniable.
Then I think the God Hand are also referred to as the “Guardians of Desire”. Personally, I wonder if the use of the word desire in these cases doesn't have something to do with Buddhist beliefs about desire. Here's a short excerpt about it: “In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering.” Maybe "desire" is referring to these things in context of them relating to the roots of suffering. I could be totally off base here. It was just a thought I had.

links to things I quoted:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gestalt
http://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: jackson_hurley on April 03, 2016, 02:41:07 PM

Then I think the God Hand are also referred to as the “Guardians of Desire”. Personally, I wonder if the use of the word desire in these cases doesn't have something to do with Buddhist beliefs about desire. Here's a short excerpt about it: “In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering.” Maybe "desire" is referring to these things in context of them relating to the roots of suffering. I could be totally off base here. It was just a thought I had.


Well to me the part of a "desired" one in the story has always been imo people desperately seeking for a savior, a desired one. They just got fucked because the one they got sent is not that much of a savior when you know what he's done and that he's the one responsible for Fantasia.

Then again, people at albion wished for a savior but most of them died at the tower of Albion.

My bad, I shouldn't have dragged it on for this long, but I wanted to defend my views to those who made the effort to reply to me, I've enjoyed the discussion I've had, but in retrospect I should have made it my own thread.

Don't worry. It's nice that you defend your opinion/ideas. I just don't agree with them cause it's clear in my mind that Griffith is more of a false savior or a pretender then being a true one.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: CrimsonBehelit216 on April 14, 2016, 09:52:06 AM
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive. Perhaps with Guts becoming something like the Skull Knight, opposing the God Hand for many centuries, but not being able to truly defeat them. As for closure, maybe Guts has forgiven Griffith, accepting that he has been overtaken by evil beyond his control that Guts has dedicated his life to oppose, fighting on, not for revenge, but to save humanity and Griffith from the dark forces that have driven and continue to drive horrible events.

I dare imagine the final panels showing Guts, donned in mystical armor, carrying his Dragon Slayer, and leaving behind an older Schierke's house as he rides into the distance, reminiscing on why he continues his struggle, remembering times he shared with friends and loved ones; Pippin, Judeau, Rickert, Isidro, Serpico, Farnese, Casca, and even Griffith. He thinks about the Skull Knight, wondering if he had similar motivations for living this kind of life. Nevertheless, though he admits fighting enemies his sword cannot reach, for the sake of these friends and loved ones, he declares he will never give up. Finally, he recalls one moment in the far distant past, where Griffith tells him that in this world some people born are like keys that move the world and exist having no connection to the social hierarchy established by man.

As for the events leading up to such an ending, I cannot imagine in anyway that I feel would serve the story of Berserk in a good way. Regardless, I trust in Kentaro Miura to deliver a satisfying ending. Berserk has become my favorite literature across all media, and I believe the author will continue to show his brilliance even til Berserk's conclusion.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Delta Phi on April 14, 2016, 05:48:04 PM
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive.

I really want Guts to have closure. He's been struggling for so long, it would be very nice for him to be able to settle down with Casca in the end. But I've been keeping my mind open to the idea that the IoE won't be destroyed. I could see causality leading up to a pivotal moment where the God Hand are defeated by our heroes due to their existence in the physical world. The immediate threat will end, Guts and Casca will finish off Griffith/Femto, but the IoE, still in the deepest layers of the world (if that's how things still work), will be forced to restart it's process of creating another God Hand. Witches and magic users would proliferate to help deal with the state of the world, and who knows, maybe the world layers begin to rebuild themselves.

So there's finality for our heroes, specifically Guts, but the story is open ended, so to speak, and spiral of karma continues on a new generation 1000 years in the making (not that I'd expect there to be a sequel, mind you).

The only reason why I've entertained an idea like this is because I just can't imagine how the IoE can be destroyed (or if it even exists in the same capacity that episode 83 shows us).
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on April 14, 2016, 06:26:03 PM
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive. Perhaps with Guts becoming something like the Skull Knight, opposing the God Hand for many centuries, but not being able to truly defeat them

Miura could have chosen to tell his tale from any point in the history of the world that he's developed. I believe there's a reason he chose to tell this period of it, and it's probably going to be more conclusive than what you propose. Furthermore, from a storytelling perspective, if Guts becomes something like the Skullknight or Zodd, he's already lost. I don't think Miura will take that road.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: CrimsonBehelit216 on April 15, 2016, 09:23:45 AM
That's an interesting way of looking at it.

What are your thoughts on the ending of Berserk, Walter?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Abbrà84 on July 04, 2016, 02:39:46 PM
Hello , this is my first post in this forum ,
I believe that the relationship between Guts and Grifis is very well explained by the relationship between Prome and Delos in gigantomakhia .
I believe in the Miura mind are two sides of the same thing, so , for me , berserk will end with Guts who understand and perhaps forgive Grifis. The conclusion , for me , can go two ways :
1 ) Guts defeats Grifis but understand his motivations and forgives him before killing him ( as ken shiro with Raul ) and destroys Falconia .
2 ) Guts , after having been in the situation of being able to kill Grifis , understands that Falconia is a necessity for the " normal people " in the world , and accept Grifis as one who can be "the ruler of the human world " and simply go its own Street

Hello
ps sorry for bad english
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: residentgrigo on July 04, 2016, 03:05:59 PM
My 2 cents: At least Serpico has to buy the farm, or "defend" the Bridge of Parting, hm. Guts will fully defeat Griffith and then pull a Cowboy Beebop or even go full Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. This would be a fine death, a broken Dragonslayer, and all of that. He will either be forgotten by time, or even be despised for slaying the "Falcon of Light", yet he will be remembered by his surviving band members and "wife" + possibly son. He deserves at least that much and the Black Swordsman will exist on as a whispered myth. And the world? I don´t think that any of us older readers expected to see a planet wide merging of the Astral Planes to happen (episode 345/46 should be informative) and i don´t believe that it can be truly "undone", but i expect to see humanity head into a neutral or positive direction, freed of causality. Something comparable to the manga ending of Akira, a beauty that one.
I also hope to see  the Idea of Evil again, in a small role (not as a boss or anything). Forgot: The volume count will be between 50 and 55. 
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 04, 2016, 04:27:51 PM
Hello Abbrà84,

I believe that the relationship between Guts and Grifis is very well explained by the relationship between Prome and Delos in gigantomakhia .

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Squiddot on July 04, 2016, 04:48:47 PM
This is what i think of when i try to picture the end of Berserk, i think i wrote it a bit too dramatic and grandiose when a simple description would have sufficed, but that's the sort of mood I get, when I'm made to picture such a monumental moment.  :guts:


I've always felt that while Guts and Casca will inevitably kill Griffith, no doubt by exploiting some fatal flaw brought about by the child, the rest of the God Hand will escape harm and retreat back into the deep astral world with their millennia-long plan in shambles. With Skullknight vowing to remain on watch for when they inevitably return with a new 5th (or however many they're missing). This allows Guts to live out his days (or hours depending on how that fight goes) as a human rather than force him down the same path of wraith-dom. Or maybe he will go through with it, there's a lot of factors we can't know at this point that will determine this.


The end reveals the omnipresent narrator who describes the most cataclysmic scenes of the manga, as well as the most personal scenes of Guts like they're describing a long lost legend, is Void, just as it was in the 97 Anime, mulling over how one man derailed the track laid out by God himself to such an extent.


But back to Guts, his fight with Griffith is only half his final battle. Before, during and most likely even after Griffith's defeat the beast will be Guts greatest foe. The biggest fight will be internal, between Guts sane mind (no longer tied to protecting Casca as much as it needed to be in the past) and the parts utterly consumed by revenge at any cost. Maybe it will end with Guts subduing and "taming" the beast, more likely he'll retake that part of his psych and fight alongside it as if it were an "ally". I'm strongly against Guts "falling" to the beast, at least not for any meaningful amount of time, especially not to kill any important friendly characters.


I mean I've tried to base my theories on what I've seen Miura do in the past and how the Berserk universe and characters work but in the end this is tainted by what appeals to me. Until we see where all this Elfhelm business is going, it's too hard to see an ending. The more immediate future of what will happen to Casca clouds everything behind it.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Abbrà84 on July 04, 2016, 04:57:36 PM
Hello Abbrà84,

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.

ahahah

i don't find it stupid at all, prome is almost grifis and delos is a variation of Guts, is the same pattern of characters.
anyway, i think that grifis and Guts are two face of the same coin, grifis is not only bad, an Guts is not only good.



Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 04, 2016, 05:11:40 PM
i don't find it stupid at all, prome is almost grifis and delos is a variation of Guts, is the same pattern of characters.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because I think you're completely wrong and I don't even understand how you could think that.
Also the name is spelled "Griffith".
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Abbrà84 on July 04, 2016, 05:37:04 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree then because I think you're completely wrong and I don't even understand how you could think that.
Also the name is spelled "Griffith".

ok,
i'm a host in your house and i respect customs and traditions! we'll have to aggree to disagree!
ok also for "Griffith", no problem, i don't speak japanese, and i'm not a filology and i've only repeat the version of the name that is in the version of the manga in my country.
Anyway, i think that the comparison between the characters, is uninportant in assuming the final of berserk, what is important, at least for me, is that "I" don't think that griffith is the absolute evil and Guts is the absolute good.
So, in the end of berserk, for me, it will become increasingly clear the mutual understanding between the two characters.

Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 04, 2016, 05:48:53 PM
ok also for "Griffith", no problem, i don't speak japanese, and i'm not a filology and i've only repeat the version of the name that is in the version of the manga in my country.

Sure thing, it's just so you know. I just assume anyone would want to know the proper spelling.

what is important, at least for me, is that "I" don't think that griffith is the absolute evil and Guts is the absolute good.
So, in the end of berserk, for me, it will become increasingly clear the mutual understanding between the two characters.

Haha, well, we'll see about that. Without going into absolutes, it's pretty clear to me that Griffith is evil and that Guts' anger towards him is well-placed. So I don't believe the 2 scenarios you've laid out will come to pass.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 04, 2016, 07:05:30 PM
Quote
it's pretty clear to me that Griffith is evil

Hm,pre- ceremony Griffith? Definitely not. Femto/reincarnated Griffith? Probably/Possibly/Yes.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 04, 2016, 07:08:48 PM
Hm,pre- ceremony Griffith? Definitely not. Femto/reincarnated Griffith? Probably/Possibly/Yes.

We're talking about the end of the series here, genius. Do I have to spell it out for you?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 04, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
Naw, I'm good.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on July 08, 2016, 02:22:38 AM
I wish some of these speculations came true... but most of these are too cheesy and way too predictable. There are just too many unexplained things to unravel some sort of true ending for the series. All I want is some point in the series is for Femto to get cannonballed in the face by Guts  :guts:

Also I would want at least Zodd the Immortal to die some point in the series. But on that whole topic of him being "immortal," I feel sorry for the poor bastard who would try to bring him down  :sad: Don't really know what that would bring to the table story wise, but just imagining what Zodd's dying words would be, peak my interest. Also to see his true body when he dies would be cool, like Wyald.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Imperator Hanseatic on July 08, 2016, 02:49:02 AM
just imagining what Zodd's dying words would be, peak my interest

I imagine if he died in a straight fight, he'd likely be at peace for having found a worthy opponent. Maybe a few words of congratulation to the one(s) who bested him.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 08, 2016, 03:58:01 AM
Also I would want at least Zodd the Immortal to die some point in the series. But on that whole topic of him being "immortal," I feel sorry for the poor bastard who would try to bring him down  :sad: Don't really know what that would bring to the table story wise, but just imagining what Zodd's dying words would be, peak my interest. Also to see his true body when he dies would be cool, like Wyald.

I have no doubt that Guts will kill Zodd eventually.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Squiddot on July 08, 2016, 10:02:12 AM
When it comes to Zodd's death would it be best to have him die in an honourable battle like he presumably wants? Or something less befitting of a warrior to spite him and deny his dream?
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 08, 2016, 10:08:37 AM
When it comes to Zodd's death would it be best to have him die in an honourable battle like he presumably wants? Or something less befitting of a warrior to spite him and deny his dream?

I feel that the most courageous death would be for him to face off against a member of the God Hand. It would cement his status as a one-of-a-kind apostle who remained "his own man" in the end, plus they are actually overwhelmingly powerful opponents, which is what he sought before the Falcon of Light whooped his ass. Nothing in the manga shows Zodd caring much for honor –that's Grunbeld's thing– and it's kind of a ridiculous notion for an apostle (which is why Guts called Grunbeld out on it).

All that being said, I still really think Miura will give us a final Zodd vs Guts fight.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: residentgrigo on July 08, 2016, 10:24:20 AM
I don´t think that Apostles are truly capable of honor by their vary nature. I would like Zodd to survive and be denied an honorable death or last duel. He has been a force of nature for centuries and a return to aimless wandering seems like a fitting end. A last fight against Guts seems logical to me too. Rule of 3 and all.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Pink-Dark-Boy on July 08, 2016, 11:06:22 AM
I don´t think that Apostles are truly capable of honor by their vary nature.

The Count not sacrificing his daughter seemed like a honourable act to me, Femto even tried threatning him with putting him in the Berserk equivelant of hell and he still refused. So I think Apostles are capable of honor.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 08, 2016, 11:10:52 AM
Would it be too far-fetched to think that if Guts defeats Zodd one day, Zodd might bend his knee to Guts in sign of respect/loyalty like he did with Femto? Sure God hand member is one thing and a human ( well extraordinary human ) is another one. I don't think its impossible given they've already had a temporary alliance against Ganishka.


Quote
Nothing in the manga shows Zodd caring much for honor

Well, his fight against Guts in Tudor's Stronghold could be seen as one on one honourable type of a duel, especially considering how enraged he got when band of the hawk interrupted  the match and butted in. I do think he has some sort notion of honour even if its not as strong to shape him as a character in comparison to Grunbeld.

Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: residentgrigo on July 08, 2016, 11:18:44 AM
Being repentant in death is meaningless if your life´s work was only death and misery. The Count didn´t even find the inner strength to kill his wife by himself (thx to the podcast crew for that detail i somehow overlooked), while she embraced her end. His truly died like slug in the end.

Zodd transformed in Vol.5 to stand a chance after loosing as a "man" (the arm wound is severe), which is an admittance of his weakness in a way. What´s fair in that duel?
I don´t care how any of the Apostles ultimately die (or not) but i would like most of their final fates to have an element of irony.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 08, 2016, 12:37:45 PM
Would it be too far-fetched to think that if Guts defeats Zodd one day, Zodd might bend his knee to Guts in sign of respect/loyalty like he did with Femto?

Yes, it's far-fetched. No way that's ever happening. Zodd knelt because his natural master had displayed absolute power over him. That's not going to happen with anyone else. The most I could see him do, as a sign of respect to Guts in a hypothetical scenario, would be to nod his head.

Well, his fight against Guts in Tudor's Stronghold could be seen as one on one honourable type of a duel, especially considering how enraged he got when band of the hawk interrupted  the match and butted in.

I think that's far-fetched as well. He wanted to fully enjoy his duel with Guts, that's all. But he'd have killed him in the end, using his supernatural strength. Where's the honor in that? Zodd has a single-minded focus on testing his might, but that doesn't make him virtuous. If you want a beacon of honor in Berserk, Azan is where you should look. A man who wouldn't strike a fallen enemy, and whose main preoccupation is the safety of innocent people.

I do think he has some sort notion of honour even if its not as strong to shape him as a character in comparison to Grunbeld.

He certainly does. He's not as devoid of morality and governed by his base instincts as the average apostle is. He has shown restraint and leniency in the past when it suited his interests, and even showed his distaste for the "festival" that occurred during the Eclipse by not partaking in it. But still, he's a monster content with butchering hapless men using power that puts him hopelessly above them. In the end, apostles are apostles, and there's a hard limit to the nobility they can display. Speaking of Grunbeld, if anything I think Zodd is much more honest than he is in that regard. He's not pretending to be what he isn't. One of my favorite moments in Berserk is when Guts calls out Grunbeld on being a monster who pretends to be a knight. It's spot-on.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on July 08, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
The Count not sacrificing his daughter seemed like a honourable act to me, Femto even tried threatning him with putting him in the Berserk equivelant of hell and he still refused. So I think Apostles are capable of honor.

The Count didn't "refuse" so much as "hesitate" to sacrifice Theresia, until he bled out and died. Miura chose to make it more ambiguous than an outright refusal to sacrifice his own daughter, which I think is pretty important given the kind of monster the Count had become.

And Femto didn't try and threaten him, he was telling him exactly what would (and did) happen to him if he died there.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: residentgrigo on July 08, 2016, 12:52:54 PM
I don´t think that Zodd is either "evil" or capable of some inner good. I view him as the spirit of war, in a way. "Ending" his particular tale would feel weird to me. Even a property defined origin isn´t something i need. He just is. (Not that any of this has to do with Berserk´s ending.)
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 08, 2016, 01:12:31 PM
I don´t think that Zodd is either "evil" or capable of some inner good.

All apostles are evil by definition.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Pink-Dark-Boy on July 08, 2016, 01:24:50 PM
The Count didn't "refuse" so much as "hesitate" to sacrifice Theresia, until he bled out and died. Miura chose to make it more ambiguous than an outright refusal to sacrifice his own daughter, which I think is pretty important given the kind of monster the Count had become.

And Femto didn't try and threaten him, he was telling him exactly what would (and did) happen to him if he died there.

Yeah you have a point with how the refusal seemed ambiguous, I remember at first where I thought The Count did sacrifice his daughter due to him saying "No.. I don't want to die" but when she was spared I was quite surprised.

Threaten was not the best choice of words then in that case, my mistake.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 08, 2016, 01:25:57 PM
I always found apostles to be tragic characters. To lose everything you had, your closest friends, relatives and family and then being forced to sacrifice them just to survive and become something evil and monstrous. I always wondered how many apostles regret what they did and what they became.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 08, 2016, 01:32:09 PM
I always found apostles to be tragic characters. To lose everything you had, your closest friends, relatives and family and then being forced to sacrifice them just to survive and become something evil and monstrous. I always wondered how many apostles regret what they did and what they became.

That is a good way to look at it, but I would be more nuanced. For many of the "main" ones that were showcased (Slug Count, Rochine, Beherit apostle... even Ganishka), Miura went to the trouble of showing us how they got dealt a shitty hand in life and eventually made that terrible choice. Just like for Griffith, their existence had been planned in such a way that they'd end up like that. As for regret specifically, Rochine's death in particular comes to mind. However, for each of these examples there's a case like Wyald's, or the Snake Baron's... People who fully enjoyed what they got and seemed to regret nothing. In fact, even Rochine delighted in her evilness before Guts came around. So while there's a tragic side to them, they do remain oppressors first and foremost, people who offered what was most precious to them in exchange for power.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 09, 2016, 09:59:18 PM
Quote
This allows Guts to live out his days (or hours depending on how that fight goes) as a human rather than force him down the same path of wraith-dom. Or maybe he will go through with it, there's a lot of factors we can't know at this point that will determine this.


The end reveals the omnipresent narrator who describes the most cataclysmic scenes of the manga, as well as the most personal scenes of Guts like they're describing a long lost legend, is Void, just as it was in the 97 Anime, mulling over how one man derailed the track laid out by God himself to such an extent.

I think the ideal ending for Guts would be like you said, a small piece of heaven for him and Casca to live out the rest of their days far away from the troubles of the world and constant struggling/fighting. Something like the Griffith's illusion comes to mind , except this time with Guts, Casca and a couple of children of their own.

I imagine end of manga Guts as an old, grizzled veteran who has stopped wandering aimlessly and has raised a family with Casca and has largely put his fighting days behind him , but still retains the status of a mercenary legend due to his exploits with band of the hawk as well as victory over former god of war, Zodd ( which we all think will happen anyway ) . Wouldn't it be cool if Guts were to inherit that status from Zodd and enter annals of history as a Demon/God killer not just in midland, but throughout the whole world.

After his death ( which may or may not be shown in the manga ), we could see a large statue of him erected as a memory ( possibly by Rickert and some artisans), planted firmly on the hill of the swords, as if he's watching over his long dead comrades, with people and acquintances from all over the world coming to pay their respects.

Maybe it sounds overly dramatic, but I think Guts deserves at least that.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 17, 2016, 10:37:16 PM
My theory on how Berserk will end isn't exactly a concrete ending but more of an idea. Zodd, when not in beast form, looks similar to Guts. Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse). Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death. So Berserk may end with Guts and Griffith becoming the next Zodd and Skullknight. Forever fighting each other with neither of them killing the other.

Zodd and Guts have spiky hair and the Skull Knight and Griffith both ride horses. That's where the resemblance stops in each case. Also, the Skull Knight and Zodd don't hate each other. Zodd just likes to fight strong opponents, and the Skull Knight doesn't seem to care. As for Griffith, he has said that he feels nothing towards Guts, and he doesn't wish to fight him at all. So... this doesn't make any sense to me.

Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast.

I can hardly think of anything more unlikely than what you're proposing here.

It isn't happy or sad, or evening fulfilling but it seems fitting for Berserk. Guts can't beat fate, or "God". Despite how hard he tries his fate is set in stone and is unchangeable.

That's not really what we're told in the story...
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Lawliet on July 17, 2016, 10:43:56 PM

After his death ( which may or may not be shown in the manga ), we could see a large statue of him erected as a memory ( possibly by Rickert and some artisans), planted firmly on the hill of the swords, as if he's watching over his long dead comrades, with people and acquintances from all over the world coming to pay their respects.

Maybe it sounds overly dramatic, but I think Guts deserves at least that.

I actually think people may never find out that Griffith is a fraud, and would continue to think of him as some savior. Many centuries into the future there may be people who have formed cults or religions about him. With this in mind, people may curse Guts' name and portray him as the villain who opposed their savior, not knowing that Guts is the one who saved them all in the first place.

Just my two cents.

My theory on how Berserk will end isn't exactly a concrete ending but more of an idea. Zodd, when not in beast form, looks similar to Guts. Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse). Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death. So Berserk may end with Guts and Griffith becoming the next Zodd and Skullknight. Forever fighting each other with neither of them killing the other.

Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast. But even then he will never be strong enough to truly defeat Griffith.
I mean, the series may not truly end. Just continue until both sides are alone in an eternal 1v1 match against each other.
It isn't happy or sad, or evening fulfilling but it seems fitting for Berserk. Guts can't beat fate, or "God". Despite how hard he tries his fate is set in stone and is unchangeable.

I have two problems with my theory, however. 1: Berserk will end without having an end. And 2: Guts is starting to resemble Skullknight more and more as the series goes on and, unlike Griffith, Skullknight is against the Godhand. But the main idea of Guts and Griffith eternally locked in a 1v1 with neither of them being able to kill the other is possible. Hell, maybe Skullknight and Zodd are just both symbols of Guts. Zodd being pre-eclipse Guts or the Guts who succumbs to his inner beast and Skullknight being the future Guts or the current Guts.

I don't know if this theory has already been made or not but it's something I've been thinking about for quite a while.

The entire story will be rendered pointless if this theory is true. It's definitely not going to end this way, safe to say.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 17, 2016, 10:51:17 PM
Quote
Zodd, when not in beast form, looks similar to Guts

Honestly I wouldn't pay too much attention to this. There have been theories about Guts having a connection to Zodd due to this but there's nothing in the manga that supports it. I think its largely a coincidence.

Quote
Skullknight looks similar in someways to Griffith (especially when on his horse)

Huh? You might wanna be more specific here because I see no similarity there.

Quote
Both pairs hate each other and wish to fight to the death.

Aside Guts hating Griffith, Zodd doesn't really hate Guts or Skull Knight. If anything, he respects them as warriors, especially Skull Knight whom he finds the most equal to him.

Quote
Guts may lose sight of why he fights and ends up reverting back to when he was younger and just fighting to fight. Only now no man can even touch him. Hell, he may succumb to the Beherit and sacrifice his friends, or succumb to his inner beast. But even then he will never be strong enough to truly defeat Griffith.

Guts has actual support this time via Schierke and a clear goal in his line, that is Casca's restoration. No doubt that there'll be many more moments where he'll have to face his inner beast, but I doubt he'll completely succumb to it. There would be no story left anymore if he did. Im sure there'll be some sort of solution as to how permanently restrain beast of darkness or maximize its power without falling under its influence.

As for sacrificing his friends, that's complete nonsense. Guts was already in situation in materaliazed Qliphoth where Slaan tried to force him to use it, but he refused. Guts fighting supernatural forces and prevailing againt something larger than himself is the core of this manga. Suddenly sacrificing valuable friends who helped him overcome his fears and darkness and made him feel like a part of the group once again would make no sense, Guts is not evil and he values comrades. He would never do what Griffith did.

Quote
I actually think people may never find out that Griffith is a fraud, and would continue to think of him as some savior. Many centuries into the future there may be people who have formed cults or religions about him. With this in mind, people may curse Guts name and portray him as the villain who opposed their savior, not knowing that Guts is the one who saved them all in the first place.

That will largely depend on what Griffith decides to do with people in Falconia or even wider humanity. We know something big is forming up but we dont know what. I think its only matter of time before the Falcon of light reveals his not so shiny colours.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Lawliet on July 17, 2016, 11:08:53 PM

That will largely depend on what Griffith decides to do with people in Falconia or even wider humanity. We know something big is forming up but we dont know what. I think its only matter of time before the Falcon of light reveals his not so shiny colours.

True.

The thing with Berserk is that it is a very unpredictable story. The most unpredictable story I am aware of, in fact. I write stories myself, and can usually predict how a story would end long before it does. But I can't for the life of me predict how Berserk would proceed next, let alone end. Yet another reason why Miura is a master storyteller.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: SleepySailor on July 18, 2016, 08:12:31 PM
Hey, just came in to say thanks for ripping apart my shitty theory. Looking back I see it wasn't well thought out and had little evidence to support it. It was overall based on "oh, these two guys and these two guys look kinda' the same-ish, so THIS might happen." And it was obvious I just threw it out there with no planning or thought. So, sorry, It was a shitty theory. And thank you to those who responded. I didn't expect so many people to tear it apart like that. That's pretty cool. I'll remove the theory, as I'm frankly embarrassed by it, and will hopefully be able to improve myself and try to actually make a theory not completely stupid like that one.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 18, 2016, 08:46:06 PM
I wouldn't call it shitty, you did have some points ( like guts perhaps going towards skull knight's path ). In any case, dont worry about it.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on July 18, 2016, 08:53:12 PM
Hey, just came in to say thanks for ripping apart my shitty theory. Looking back I see it wasn't well thought out and had little evidence to support it.

Don't sweat it, it happens all the time.
Berserk has been around for a while, and so it's practically impossible to develop a sound theory that hasn't already been thought of.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: MrFlibble on August 11, 2016, 11:51:53 PM
The Count didn't "refuse" so much as "hesitate" to sacrifice Theresia, until he bled out and died. Miura chose to make it more ambiguous than an outright refusal to sacrifice his own daughter, which I think is pretty important given the kind of monster the Count had become.

And Femto didn't try and threaten him, he was telling him exactly what would (and did) happen to him if he died there.

I think the envisioned family painting before the brand vanishes implied that he refused to sacrifice Theresia.

Edit: I meant painting not photo, Fuck.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Walter on August 11, 2016, 11:58:08 PM
I think the envisioned family photo before the brand vanishes implied that he refused to sacrifice Theresia.

At any rate, he never says either way. Miura could have chosen for him to refuse vocally, heroically defying the God Hand. Instead, he silently accepts death over sacrificing her.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Griffith on August 12, 2016, 07:14:00 AM
Well... The God Hand falls, Zodd and Skull Knight die with their missions complete. Griffith dies with regret, the closest he'll come to redeeming his humanity. Guts strikes the fatal blow, but finds little joy in it. He's weary. The world remains chaotic and full of magic, and man must choose how to make their own way in it, but they can. Guts and Casca are free of the brand, they've helped shepherd in a new era and the people to lead it, their friends and all those they've touched. They retire to relatively quiet lives eating soup, naming children after old comrades, and living happily ever after together. They don't find it ordinary at all.

I'd be able to live with that, anyway.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Aazealh on August 12, 2016, 09:18:04 AM
Well... The God Hand falls, Zodd and Skull Knight die with their missions complete. Griffith dies with regret, the closest he'll come to redeeming his humanity. Guts strikes the fatal blow, but finds little joy in it. He's weary. The world remains chaotic and full of magic, and man must choose how to make their own way in it, but they can. Guts and Casca are free of the brand, they've helped shepherd in a new era and the people to lead it, their friends and all those they've touched. They retire to relatively quiet lives eating soup, naming children after old comrades, and living happily ever after together. They don't find it ordinary at all.

Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: razorkid on August 12, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
Hello there. First post.

I just wanted to ask who is eligible for sacrifice? Is it exclusive to humans or could other apostles/godhand members fit that criteria as well?


I thought that maybe Guts' new band would be killed off by griffith in the climax of the story, and with guts having no one left to care for yet still having the behleit in his possession. He could have his sacrifice be griffith and the god hand? Because they're the only people that he cares about after the death of his new friends?

Similar to how griffith was talking about guts being his anchor when he was being tortured. Guts' purpose and "anchor" after the proposed death of his new band would be the only thing keeping him going, without that he would have nothing I'd assume. So is a sacrifice only restricted to those you "love" or those you care for; whatever that means.

Maybe the god hand would laugh at the thought that they could be sacrificed, while Void looks on without saying anything, then suddenly raises his hand and fires the brands onto all of them, including himself. Because it's ultimately not up to them who gets sacrificed but to causality/idea of evil.

Although this may seem like an ironic way to win that penultimate fight. I can't help but think that it's thematically inconsistent from what the rest of the series has developed up until this point: negating several moral lessons (abandoning revenge to care for the things you have) - anger and hatred literally causing an evil god to emerge that acts as a catalyst for even more suffering.

It brings up the question of how to deal with the Idea of Evil. Maybe there's a good reason why Miura went back and omitted it? (I know he talked of it being too revealing, but maybe it was TOO overpowered in the context of themes presented).
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on August 12, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
Hello there. First post.

I just wanted to ask who is eligible for sacrifice?

If the sacrificer happens to summons the God Hand for a sacrifice, the sacrificee can only be someone who is emotionally important to the sacrificer, "someone so close to you that it's almost like giving up a part of you."
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Cyrus Jong on August 13, 2016, 01:58:50 AM
Hello there. First post.

I just wanted to ask who is eligible for sacrifice? Is it exclusive to humans or could other apostles/godhand members fit that criteria as well?


I thought that maybe Guts' new band would be killed off by griffith in the climax of the story, and with guts having no one left to care for yet still having the behleit in his possession. He could have his sacrifice be griffith and the god hand? Because they're the only people that he cares about after the death of his new friends?

Similar to how griffith was talking about guts being his anchor when he was being tortured. Guts' purpose and "anchor" after the proposed death of his new band would be the only thing keeping him going, without that he would have nothing I'd assume. So is a sacrifice only restricted to those you "love" or those you care for; whatever that means.

Maybe the god hand would laugh at the thought that they could be sacrificed, while Void looks on without saying anything, then suddenly raises his hand and fires the brands onto all of them, including himself. Because it's ultimately not up to them who gets sacrificed but to causality/idea of evil.

Although this may seem like an ironic way to win that penultimate fight. I can't help but think that it's thematically inconsistent from what the rest of the series has developed up until this point: negating several moral lessons (abandoning revenge to care for the things you have) - anger and hatred literally causing an evil god to emerge that acts as a catalyst for even more suffering.

It brings up the question of how to deal with the Idea of Evil. Maybe there's a good reason why Miura went back and omitted it? (I know he talked of it being too revealing, but maybe it was TOO overpowered in the context of themes presented).
Yes, I'm sure that the God Hand, who carry out the ceremonies and who place the Brand upon the sacrificed, will be more than happy to brand themselves at Guts' behest. And that the Idea of Evil would have manipulated events in such a way that Its own arbiters would die. That's a pretty silly and anticlimatic way to end things, don't you think?

As DANGERDOOOOM explained, a sacrifice has to be something so vitally important that to lose it is to lose a part of yourself. In pretty much all cases, it's person or persons that was very dear to the apostle-to-be. Griffith and the God Hand are not dear to Guts. They are his enemies, which as the Count learned the hard way, is a no-go.

The only exception we've seen to the typical rules was the Beherit Apostle, but he was a very special case with some very unique aspects to his sacrifice and transformation. He chose to sacrifice himself and the world he knew, but as he explains, while he hated the world, it was still something he clung to, something that still held a powerful connection in his heart. And when you ultimately get down to it, it isn't really different from all the other sacrifices we've seen, which have always been subject to conflicted feelings from the demon-to-be. The Count was betrayed by his wife in the worst way, but he still couldn't find it in himself to kill her because of his love for her. Rosine loved her parents, including her abusive father, but couldn't stand to live in that miserable home where they constantly fought. And Guts stirred up feelings in Griffith that made him forget his dream, which is what made Griffith come to resent him. Guts did not qualify as a sacrifice because he was an "anchor" for Griffith; he was a sacrifice because Griffith was still fond of him, even in his resentment.

Guts sacrificing the God Hand would hardly qualify as a sacrifice. His goal is to kill them, and sacrificing them would accomplish that goal very nicely, so it's not really much of a loss.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: razorkid on August 13, 2016, 02:35:35 AM
I do feel silly after reading the earlier posts ITT that explain IoE's detachment from humanity and that it has its own agency. So yeah it would be counter to its own motives if the godhand were killed off through that bizarre loophole.

So can a behleit still activate if all the people or whoever you cherish are dead? I mean what else could Guts sacrifice? I'm only bringing up the behleit because it seems to be a chekhov's gun of sorts with its significance being hidden until some pivotal moment like a "final battle".
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Kaladin on August 13, 2016, 03:13:17 AM
Guts is not going to sacrifice anyone, you should get that idea out of your head, he wants to defeat the god hand, not become their henchmen. we know exactly what the beherit is and what it does when activated, it opens up a road of dragons and take you to a deep part of the astral world, it summons the god hand. the beherit will eventually be used by guts to get close to the god hand. Guts has made it pretty clear on several occasions that he's a human and doesn't like to be grouped up with apostles he hates them. one of the best parts of berserk is guts retaining his humanity despite all the shit he's been through. Miura will most likely not do another eclipse type scenario where a bunch of main players get killed off, something like that hasn't happened since the golden age, and probably won't happen again because it's not necessary.

Quote
So can a behleit still activate if all the people or whoever you cherish are dead?

up until now, there has always been something to sacrifice, beherits are directly tied to the idea of evil, who weaves every man's destiny, when the time comes, the beherit will be used and there is gonna be something to give up,will the wielder of the beherit go with the sacrifice? not necessarily.
Title: Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
Post by: Defengar on August 29, 2016, 04:42:04 AM
Dunno about the final battle, but I think that the last page will show Guts and Casca sitting on a hill together watching the sun rise over the ruins of Falconia. Guts will have been heavily wounded during the battle, and it will be left up to the audience to decide whether to believe he dies in Casca's arms on the hill, or survives and him and Casca live together for the rest of their lives happy and in peace.