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Berserk => Anime Asylum => Topic started by: Aulė on February 08, 2016, 09:18:20 PM

Title: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 08, 2016, 09:18:20 PM
When I finished Berserk manga, I wanted to introduce it to other people too. So I decided to show it to my brother first.
I knew from the beginning that he wasn't gonna just randomly start reading a manga that I recommend to him no matter what I told him about it so I told him to watch the 1997 anime first. I was thinking that when he finishes the anime he will be intrigued by the all questions it leaves hanging and he will start reading the manga like I did.

Well in short, he liked it, he was also asking me about all the questions, and I told him to read the manga. In short he was ready to read it... Yesterday I asked him "Have you finished it yet?" And he answered "No I am not gonna read it. They announced an anime. I am just gonna wait for the anime" .... At that point I was just face-palming. No matter what I told him "read it! the anime is not gonna be as good as the manga" or "it's CGI bullshit" I just couldn't convince my lazy ass brother.

Well I don't blame him, I would probably do the same. Just keep in mind that both him and me hadn't read one single manga in our lives before and we both prefer the visual adaptation of anime from since we were kids (naruto, one piece, hunter x hunter ....). The only reason I started reading Berserk manga was that the anime  started with an absurd 1st episode and in the end I was just "What? What happened to Casca? Where is Rickert? Why it didn't show his death? How the hell did Guts survived? Who the fuck was that guy in the 1st episode??" ..

Where am I going with this? Well... The anime was a perfect gateway to the manga cause of all these questions it "forced" you in a way to go read the manga and I feel that the new anime is gonna ruin that.... Well I already got a live example. My brother may even lose his interest for Berserk completely after the new anime...

Whatever... I just wanted to share my thoughts about that. I think we don't need a half assed anime adaptation. If it was in my hands I wouldn't put a new anime and if I would, I would make sure it would be an 100% faithful to the manga adaptation from the beginning... No censorship, no bullshit animation ... oh and NO CGI.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: IncantatioN on February 09, 2016, 03:52:44 AM
The only reason I started reading Berserk manga was that the anime  started with an absurd 1st episode and in the end I was just "What? What happened to Casca? Where is Rickert? Why it didn't show his death? How the hell did Guts survived? Who the fuck was that guy in the 1st episode??" ..

The 97 anime does address what happens with Casca up to a certain point (not her rescue) and Rickert during the eclipse, including his death. But yeah, it doesn't show how Guts survived.

Quote
Where am I going with this? Well... The anime was a perfect gateway to the manga cause of all these questions it "forced" you in a way to go read the manga and I feel that the new anime is gonna ruin that....

When part of the movie trilogy I think became available on Netflix or a streaming service, manga sales spiked a bit (maybe coincidence) and I only remember of that happening cos there was a post on SK about it. The 97 anime didn't have everything from the manga and still brought in new fans. So if it's the same with the new anime, I don't see how it'll ruin it any more for people who've never read/ seen Berserk or be less of a gateway to the manga... in the sense, it's possible that, like the 97 anime, even if the new series skips major stuff from the manga, it might garner some interest in new fans to look for/ check out the manga.

If the new series isn't faithful, it'll really suck but on the other hand if it can bring more people to read and buy the manga, there's some good in its exposure I guess?
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 09, 2016, 10:07:33 AM
When part of the movie trilogy I think became available on Netflix or a streaming service, manga sales spiked a bit (maybe coincidence) and I only remember of that happening cos there was a post on SK about it.

I haven't seen it(cause I hate CGI and the animation) but I  think the movie trilogy is the same period as the anime isn't it? It doesn't put new material in. Also it's a movie not an anime. It's more likely for someone who knows nothing about a series to start watching a 20min anime instead of movies. Movies are generally made for fans that already know the franchise.

I don't see how it'll ruin it any more for people who've never read/ seen Berserk or be less of a gateway to the manga... in the sense, it's possible that, like the 97 anime, even if the new series skips major stuff from the manga, it might garner some interest in new fans to look for/ check out the manga.

If the new series isn't faithful, it'll really suck but on the other hand if it can bring more people to read and buy the manga, there's some good in its exposure I guess?

My worries is that it will ruin it because the answers to the questions of 97 will be given more or less. Even if it sounds strange I probably wouldn't have started reading Berserk if the 1st episode of 97 wasn't there. I would have assumed that all of them died and it was just a massacre anime.

Another thing. The real hype in the manga for me started exactly after golden age arc ended. Which is were 97 left of. This hype will be destroyed. It's also more difficult to start reading chapters that you have already seen on screen. For 97 anime it was about 100 chapters now it will be what 100 more? 2/3 of Berserk will be depicted on screen. So people will say "nah I am not gonna read it I'll just wait for the next anime"
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Jerkins on February 09, 2016, 11:24:24 AM
The real hype in the manga for me started exactly after golden age arc ended.

Really? That's where it ended for me. And it didn't come back until Birth Ceremony Chapter.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 09, 2016, 02:46:51 PM
Really? That's where it ended for me. And it didn't come back until Birth Ceremony Chapter.

I must say that I'm with Aulė here. I always preferred the post eclipse episodes because in my eyes berserk is about that. Now don't get me wrong, the golden age was a very very fantastic flashback and was necessary to the story. I just prefere present day Guts and all the development we have seen him get through.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 09, 2016, 03:21:14 PM
Really?

Yes. That was the reason I started reading manga -to know what comes after-. I like Golden Age arc but I already knew what was going to happen due to the 97 anime... It was interesting tho to see the differences and what they hadn't include in the anime.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Walter on February 09, 2016, 04:50:47 PM
My immediate feeling after watching the first movie was that if I had seen this as my introduction to Berserk, I'd never have proceeded to the larger series. It felt cheap, amateur, awkward, and merely skated on the surface levels of character depth that the manga offers.

I'm glad that it did apparently bring some people to the series, but I have a feeling that there are probably many others out there for whom this had the opposite effect, and we're getting a selective bias feedback from those who actually liked it, whereas none from those who moved right along.

Now, as for the particular example you cite, of your brother not reading because another adaptation is forthcoming, that feels like an edge case, to me. If people are interested enough in the series, they'll seek it out. If not, well, then they probably weren't very into it to begin with.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 09, 2016, 05:24:49 PM
My immediate feeling after watching the first movie was that if I had seen this as my introduction to Berserk, I'd never have proceeded to the larger series. It felt cheap, amateur, awkward, and merely skated on the surface levels of character depth that the manga offers.


Indeed. If I had not been with my girlfriend when we watched the movies, she would have not understand a lot. She was glad I was there to fill up the missing information.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Quirkus on February 09, 2016, 06:45:34 PM
Wow you watched it with your girlfriend, brave soul. After the first movie I watched the other ones while my wife was out. She is aware of my immense nerddom  but those movies are cringe worthy. The Griffith Charlotte scene is so needlessly long, and uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons. I'm weary of another adaption, and have basically but all my eggs in the manga basket, however I'm always hopeful it can be done correctly.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 09, 2016, 07:05:37 PM
The Griffith Charlotte scene is so needlessly long, and uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons.

Yes, that scene was ridiculous and we pretty much laugh at it. One of the worst added scene is the fucking dance at the ball. Anyways, I hope this animation won't be as disastrous as the trilogy was.

but I have faith that new readers will be attracted to the manga with this new one coming out in July.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: MiyamotoPuck on February 09, 2016, 07:33:57 PM
My immediate feeling after watching the first movie was that if I had seen this as my introduction to Berserk, I'd never have proceeded to the larger series. It felt cheap, amateur, awkward, and merely skated on the surface levels of character depth that the manga offers.

When I finished the 97 anime I really wanted to know what follows but I haven't looked any further into it, then time passed and I moved on... But then I discovered that in the meantime movies were released, so having loved the anime I watched them and that's when I finally decided to read Berserk.
So yeah I have to admit it's probably because I watched the anime first that I had a minimum of tools to appreciate it, but I just wanted to tell that even if it wasn't a good adaptation, those movies served as a reminder to show that this series exists (at least for me) which I think is a pretty good thing. (And that's also why I don't hate the movies)
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 09, 2016, 08:57:40 PM
Now, as for the particular example you cite, of your brother not reading because another adaptation is forthcoming, that feels like an edge case, to me. If people are interested enough in the series, they'll seek it out. If not, well, then they probably weren't very into it to begin with.

He was interested enough to decide to start reading it. Keep in mind that he hasn't read any manga ever. Since we were kids we could always start reading manga to see what's going on in series we loved but we decided to patiently wait for the anime episodes to come and fill us up.

I wouldn't mind if I knew that the depiction of Berserk would be a perfect one as it is the case with Shingeki no Kyojin in which we both wait since 2012 for the second season without reading manga. Call me a pessimist but I am 99% sure that I'll be disappointed... and I don't want a top notch material and excellent story to be spoiled for people that don't know about it.

Whatever... maybe I'm just paranoid and people will enjoy it anyways.

If I had not been with my girlfriend when we watched the movies

And here I am watching Fifty Shades of Grey and this kind of bullshit while you are watching Berserk... man you are just badass, how do you do it?
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aazealh on February 09, 2016, 09:08:45 PM
No matter what I told him "read it! the anime is not gonna be as good as the manga" or "it's CGI bullshit" I just couldn't convince my lazy ass brother.

My take on this has always been that failing to capture this type of audience isn't a big loss. What the series need is enthusiastic, paying customers... not jaded, lazy people who need to be hounded into giving it a chance.

The 97 anime didn't have everything from the manga and still brought in new fans. So if it's the same with the new anime, I don't see how it'll ruin it any more for people who've never read/ seen Berserk or be less of a gateway to the manga...

You're completely missing the point of the thread. The TV series ended with a monumental cliffhanger that motivated countless people to seek out what came afterwards. The new adaptation, beyond the fact it's terrible, doesn't even have that merit.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 09, 2016, 09:40:10 PM

You're completely missing the point of the thread. The TV series ended with a monumental cliffhanger that motivated countless people to seek out what came afterwards. The new adaptation, beyond the fact it's terrible, doesn't even have that merit.

Indeed. They should have stopped at the same place as the old one instead of the lame ending of the third movie. When i watched the old anime the first thing I did was check out if it came from a manga (which it did when I paid attention to the credits) then went automatically on the internet to check if it was in english and luckily for me they had released the first 3 volumes. So I ordered them. I'm not sure I would have done the same thing if I started with the movies.



And here I am watching Fifty Shades of Grey and this kind of bullshit while you are watching Berserk... man you are just badass, how do you do it?

I guess I have the chance of having a girlfriend who love anime? To be honest it wasn't that hard to make her watch it. I might re-watch the old anime with her for fun. Now if only she could read the volumes. She did told me that one day she'll read them.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Emeratu on February 10, 2016, 01:26:51 AM
I mean, I doubt it's going to turn away people who are already fans, so I can't see it resulting in anything bad in particular. Being a waste of time and resources seems to be the most probable result. As of now, it'll likely turn potential newcomers off, fail to impress current fans, and receive pretty poor reception in general.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aazealh on February 10, 2016, 07:03:53 AM
Indeed. They should have stopped at the same place as the old one instead of the lame ending of the third movie.

No way, repeating the same kind of ending would have been ridiculous. They should have just done a better job of adapting the actual events from the manga.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 10, 2016, 11:11:52 AM
What the series need is enthusiastic, paying customers...

In my opinion enthusiasm(to the point of paying) in Berserk comes only from the manga. If there is "something" that prevents anyone from reading, it cuts of any potential "enthusiastic" readers.

And that's the point I am trying to make actually. That the new anime (if it's mediocre) will certainly damage future fan base of Berserk.

I mean, I doubt it's going to turn away people who are already fans

Yes I doubt that too. The problem is for those who aren't already fans but have the potential to be as they like dark fantasy stuff.

I guess I have the chance of having a girlfriend who love anime? To be honest it wasn't that hard to make her watch it. I might re-watch the old anime with her for fun. Now if only she could read the volumes. She did told me that one day she'll read them.

Cool! Even so I am still a little surprised. If I could guess, I would say the demographic of Berserk would be 80-90% males. But then again I don't know anyone in real life that knows about it, so I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aazealh on February 10, 2016, 01:57:13 PM
In my opinion enthusiasm(to the point of paying) in Berserk comes only from the manga. If there is "something" that prevents anyone from reading, it cuts of any potential "enthusiastic" readers.

And that's the point I am trying to make actually. That the new anime (if it's mediocre) will certainly damage future fan base of Berserk.

Well I agree with the idea that the most valuable type of reader could very well be repulsed by the anime's mediocrity, instead of it acting as a gateway.

But putting that aside, in the case of people who will straight up refuse to read the manga no matter what (like your brother), I'm not sure even the best adaptation in the world would do a difference. Because if they were interested, they could just read it directly in the first place.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 10, 2016, 02:55:40 PM

Because if they were interested, they could just read it directly in the first place.


Yup. Imo even if the adaptation sucks there is still enough interesting material to ask yourself if the manga is better.

No way, repeating the same kind of ending would have been ridiculous. They should have just done a better job of adapting the actual events from the manga.
(something that should be automic to think of imo)

yes of course that's the most logical thing to say (and should obviously be the most logical thing to do...). I so wish they had not shoot themself a thousand times doing the movies. That said, the ending of the 97' like you said, is way more powerfull then the movies. And to be honest I was a bit frustrated that they started again with the golden age. But enough of the past. I'll bide my time and see if that new one is good or not.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: HikariJake on February 10, 2016, 03:59:34 PM
One of the worst added scene is the fucking dance at the ball.

I thought that the dance scene was a nice moment for Guts' and Casca's relationship. Maybe it's just me... I will admit that if you remove it then you won't be missing much, but it adds more to the already amazing story than it harms it.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aazealh on February 10, 2016, 06:29:35 PM
I thought that the dance scene was a nice moment for Guts' and Casca's relationship. Maybe it's just me... I will admit that if you remove it then you won't be missing much, but it adds more to the already amazing story than it harms it.

It's cute to see Guts and Casca happily dance together. But no, it doesn't add to the story. It stands in place of a storyline about political intrigue and a scene on a balcony where Guts and Casca have a heartfelt talk that prefigures their future romance, all the while addressing the complexity of their current situation. All of those subtle and intricate story elements are wantonly erased and replaced by a dance number. A ridiculous one too, where royalty does a village dance. So I have to disagree: it does harm the story.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 10, 2016, 06:42:56 PM
It's cute to see Guts and Casca happily dance together. But no, it doesn't add to the story. It stands in place of a storyline about political intrigue and a scene on a balcony where Guts and Casca have a heartfelt talk that prefigures their future romance, all the while addressing the complexity of their current situation. All of those subtle and intricate story elements are wantonly erased and replaced by a dance number. A ridiculous one too, where royalty does a village dance. So I have to disagree: it does harm the story.

Thanks, I could not have put it better myself. I lack this talent when writing posts! I was so sad that we did not see the assassination plot...
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Emeratu on February 10, 2016, 07:58:09 PM
Thanks, I could not have put it better myself. I lack this talent when writing posts! I was so sad that we did not see the assassination plot...
Oh man, I  agree. The lack of the assassination plot was a real letdown. I was hoping to see, in higher definition, the cold, calculated, and apathetic Femto that Griffith so often tried to repress rear its ugly head.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 10, 2016, 08:04:52 PM
Oh man, I  agree. The lack of the assassination plot was a real letdown. I was hoping to see, in higher definition, the cold, calculated, and apathetic Femto that Griffith so often tried to repress rear its ugly head.

Except that Griffith was not Femto yet in the story but yeah I get what you mean. I would have trade anytime the dance scene for that segment of the story with the queen etc...
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Tabris on February 10, 2016, 08:23:09 PM
I really hated that dance scene in the movies ugh. It's cute yes, but is not at all close to what actually happened. Plus it's so against Guts' nature. That scene is vomit inducing.

But aside from that, in my experience with the TV series, it's worked well for me to get people into Berserk. I find it holds up a lot better than the movies for the story. It's a lot easier to get people to just sit down and enjoy it and then move them onto the manga if they feel like reading it.

But without a season 2, most people just won't be bothered continuing with the story. It's unfortunate but in my experience it's just not happening. But to one of my ex-girlfriends credit, she did read the series two and a half times in less than a month after she seen the TV eclipse. This was a person who had every excuse to not read it (despite being completely her type of thing).

The movies have made it far easier to get people into it though. The short duration of the first movie makes it easier to get people to jump into the second. Then the WTFness of the trailer for the third movie make people want to see the third ASAP.

I've had pretty much everybody I've ever known since these came out to watch these. It's been a 100% success rate with people loving them and wanting to see more. But I also felt obligated to take the time to explain shit that the movies couldn't have been bothered with. Which has also been 100% appreciated because they admittedly wouldn't have understood a damn thing if I didn't explain anything. Which I hate the movies for but it's necessary.

But again, very few move onto reading the manga. Only another one of my ex-girlfriends, my current roommate and one of my friends classmates have read the manga itself because of the movies. The rest are waiting for the new TV series.

As for myself, it was the original TV series back in around 2001 that pulled me into the series. I was around 15 or 16 then and I was hooked from the start. I watched it all in one sitting completely addicted.

The eclipse then proceeded to fuck up the rest of my day and I became one of the people who were waiting for season 2 to come around. Not because I didn't want to read but the books weren't out in Canada yet. Years later, the books were published and I've been hooked since.
 
Sadly the fact is, despite probably getting about 10-12 people to read the series, I am literally the only one to buy any form of it. I think one of my friends will probably some day, but I'm the only one. This is despite Berserk having a 100% success rate with every person I've shown any form of it to (manga, TV or movies). If it wasn't my books they were reading, it was scans online. The variety of reasons are that people prefer to just pirate, total laziness, the books being unavailable to buy, lack of funds, 37 books being daunting etc etc.

So, is the new Berserk anime doing more bad than good? In my experience, absolutely not when it comes to creating interest or new fans. Has it helped sales though? Hell no, not from what I've seen. At all.

But as a whole, they've at least created an interest for a lot of people from a quite a few different age groups from both genders. I have not met a single person who didn't end up at least enjoying it and most come away with a genuine love for it.

Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Theozilla on February 11, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
Even if the new anime is poor in quality, I doubt it really has the power to significantly actively hurt interest in the series. If the quality is shoddy, I expect to have an effect similar to the Gangsta. anime (which was a pretty poor adaption of its source manga) from last year, which is/was failing to generate as much interest in the source material as it could have if the product had been good.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 11, 2016, 08:28:07 AM
But to one of my ex-girlfriends credit, she did read the series two and a half times in less than a month after she seen the TV eclipse.
How do you all have girlfriends that read Berserk??? I don't even know a single person!!! I am officially jealous right now.
As for myself, it was the original TV series back in around 2001 that pulled me into the series. I was around 15 or 16 then and I was hooked from the start. I watched it all in one sitting completely addicted.
Yea me too exactly the same! just instead of 2001 put 2015 and instead of 15 put 20.
The variety of reasons are that people prefer to just pirate, total laziness, the books being unavailable to buy, lack of funds, 37 books being daunting etc etc.
It is indeed very difficult to decide to buy something. For example me: I just pirate all games and only buy them if it's in the top 1% of what I like. Same with movies I just go to the cinema 3-4 times a year, the rest is just torrents. As for Japan stuff, except from Berserk mangas, I don't have any intentions of buying anything yet. It's just impossible to afford everything. If I was rich I would certainly buy everything tho.
So, is the new Berserk anime doing more bad than good? In my experience, absolutely not when it comes to creating interest or new fans.
I hope so
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: jackson_hurley on February 11, 2016, 02:45:16 PM
How do you all have girlfriends that read Berserk??? I don't even know a single person!!! I am officially jealous right now.

I mostly introduced them all to the manga. that's how I have people reading berserk. Only two of my friends read it completely from my collection. One of the two bought them all.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: HikariJake on February 11, 2016, 05:55:15 PM
It's cute to see Guts and Casca happily dance together. But no, it doesn't add to the story. It stands in place of a storyline about political intrigue and a scene on a balcony where Guts and Casca have a heartfelt talk that prefigures their future romance, all the while addressing the complexity of their current situation. All of those subtle and intricate story elements are wantonly erased and replaced by a dance number. A ridiculous one too, where royalty does a village dance. So I have to disagree: it does harm the story.

Thinking about it that way, I agree. It's been a while since I have seen the movie and I don't remember them removing the balcony scene, but if they did then I suppose it did indeed take away more than it added.
However, if the movie was just a bit longer and they did not remove the balcony scene or the queen assassination scene and were able to find a place to put the GutsxCasca dance scene in somehow, then I think that no harm would be done.
But yeah, that didn't happen, so now that I think about it, that scene was poorly placed.  :farnese:
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: ApostleBob on February 11, 2016, 07:05:17 PM
If you haven't seen it yet, you might check out Berserk Redux, which attempts to correct some of these problems with both the anime and the movies.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aazealh on February 11, 2016, 08:16:37 PM
However, if the movie was just a bit longer and they did not remove the balcony scene or the queen assassination scene and were able to find a place to put the GutsxCasca dance scene in somehow, then I think that no harm would be done.

The balcony scene is there in some form, but it's dramatically altered because the Bonfire of Dreams scene (that it originally builds upon) never happened in the movie. As a result it lacks the depth and emotional impact the original scene had in the manga.

But to go back to the dance scene, there's also the fact it completely betrays the characters' personalities. In the original scene, Casca and Guts are both ill-at-ease at the ball, and Guts stays outside because he has a part to play in Griffith's plans (dealing with Elise's kidnappers). Plus their relationship at that time has not reached a point where they would be comfortable dancing together in front of a crowd. As a matter of fact, their relationship never did reach that point... So I again must disagree. While it's cute to see as a kind of fan fiction, this scene has no place in the story. It just isn't faithful to the characters and story.
Title: Re: Is that new Berserk anime doing more bad than good?
Post by: Aulė on February 11, 2016, 08:19:42 PM
If you haven't seen it yet, you might check out Berserk Redux.

Thanks I didn't know about that.