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Berserk => Character Cove => Topic started by: Tristram on February 14, 2005, 06:02:45 PM

Title: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Tristram on February 14, 2005, 06:02:45 PM
I did a search on this and couldn't find anything on it in here, so...

Who do you think the mysterious child that Casca found on the beach really is?

My ideas are this...
*The elf king (I'm sure many have thought this?)

*Some other spiritual entity thats taking the form og Guts' and Casca's ideal child.
(am I the only one to think the child bears much resemblance to Casca?)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Trashcan on February 15, 2005, 03:31:39 AM
Actually, most of the speculation concerning the Mysterious Child took place in the episode thread where he first appeared.

EDIT: A.K.A. Moonlight Child
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Tristram on February 15, 2005, 07:08:06 PM
Actually, most of the speculation concerning the Mysterious Child took place in the episode thread where he first appeared.

I'll look some more then, I was having a hard time finding anything.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Headless Death on February 15, 2005, 11:16:31 PM
It was in this thread --->  ;D (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2922.0)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Tristram on February 16, 2005, 05:11:12 AM
It was in this thread ---> ;D (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2922.0)

They didn't really talk about it much, but thanks for the link anyways.  I think I am just gonna drop it because really its one of those things that will be explained later if they are important.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on March 22, 2005, 04:24:53 PM
That kid on the beach found by Casca... Now I might get smacked for asking this (I'm at work and can't check back any reference as of this moment) but was it a boy or a girl?? Is he/she...good or evil? Like it's possible it could be like a sleeper apostle like they can think he/she's harmless then BAM... Mass slaughter... Or i dunno maybe the lil kid is ok and on their side... Ah hell i dunno... Your thoughts!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on March 22, 2005, 04:42:37 PM
it a boy or a girl?? Is he/she...good or evil?

It's a boy (the title of the episode where he appears being "The Boy in the Moonlight"), and he's apparently (and very probably) on the good side, since he helped Guts' band on a beach when they were most desperate. Considering what we saw of the character, it's difficult to say for sure though.

Like it's possible it could be like a sleeper apostle

No.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Woland on March 22, 2005, 10:07:20 PM
I tend to go with the theory that it is Guts and Casca's child.  The resemblance to young Guts is hard to write off.  Also, Casca was immediately maternal towards him, and he did actually bring Casca and Guts into physical contact.

Now assuming this theory is correct, then that raises a question.  I believe Skull Knight said that the Demon Child was evil, but still longed to be with his parents.  Now is the moonlight child still tainted by evil, or has the demonic influence left it after Griffith incarnated through him?

I would guess the moonlight child was pure, since there was no longer anything demonic in his appearance, but the kid is still powerful.

Bear in mind this is based on an assumption.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on March 23, 2005, 08:31:12 AM
I would guess the moonlight child was pure, since there was no longer anything demonic in his appearance, but the kid is still powerful.

I wouldn't take a stance on what is the child for now, apart from the fact that he is a "superior being", and will most probably prove to be a key character at some point later on. But going along or not with the theory of him being a materialization of the son of Guts and Casca (he does resemble them though), I think it is safe to say that he is "pure".

Your points are valid, the only problem would be the behaviour of the new Griffith and what we have seen and taken for certain until now. If the kid is indeed the Demon Child, cleansed of the taint Femto had inflicted him while abusing Casca, then how come did Griffith protect her compulsively when Guts fought Zodd on the hill, and why did he think of the Demon Child (referring to his own feelings) then and while watching the fight?

Or maybe the child, being still sentient inside of Griffith in spite of the situation, would be able to use Griffith's unearthly power on his behalf, especially near the sea, which has a very strong connexion to the astral world (not to mention the full moon).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Tristram on March 24, 2005, 07:10:54 AM
Casca was immediately maternal towards him

Casca does that with everything, doesn't she?  Like I remember when playing the DC game she picked up that Mandragora baby I was like ewwww, and then she got the mandragora heart in a jar and was huggin' on it and I was like ew again.

I think that tendency in Casca has to do with something in her knowing she was going to be a mom but that it was stolen from her (more reasons to be insane).

Then again, her holding and picking up anything that is a baby or child-like could be more related to how she has regressed to the mindset of a little toddler.  Toddler girls love their pretty dolls and are often fascinated by real babies all the more.
------------
Back on subject; I dont have a stance on the mysterious child anymore, I just decided it's best to wait for miura to do what he's going to do, and be happy with that.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on March 24, 2005, 03:54:12 PM
I have an idea, crazy as it may be.  Perhaps the Mysterious Child is the result of Griffith shedding off any remaining part of the original demonic child inside him.  This offshoot may have inherited some of Griffith's powers, as well.  Just an idea, though.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: C on March 24, 2005, 08:21:49 PM
Quote
Posted by: Rhombaad      Posted on: Today at 10:54:12 AM

I have an idea, crazy as it may be.  Perhaps the Mysterious Child is the result of Griffith shedding off any remaining part of the original demonic child inside him.  This offshoot may have inherited some of Griffith's powers, as well.  Just an idea, though.

Quite an interesting thought indeed. I suppose it makes the child grow really fast too, or does it have control over what it forms into?

 - C
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on March 24, 2005, 10:48:50 PM
I dunno, I guess I've just been watching too much Inuyasha. ;D
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Woland on March 25, 2005, 12:32:24 PM
I wouldn't take a stance on what is the child for now, apart from the fact that he is a "superior being", and will most probably prove to be a key character at some point later on. But going along or not with the theory of him being a materialization of the son of Guts and Casca (he does resemble them though), I think it is safe to say that he is "pure".

Agreed.

Quote
Your points are valid, the only problem would be the behaviour of the new Griffith and what we have seen and taken for certain until now. If the kid is indeed the Demon Child, cleansed of the taint Femto had inflicted him while abusing Casca, then how come did Griffith protect her compulsively when Guts fought Zodd on the hill, and why did he think of the Demon Child (referring to his own feelings) then and while watching the fight?

Well, I'd love to say that it's just Griffith blaming the Demon Child for his own emotions, but that seems too convenient.  Though that would be in keeping with Griffith's character to continue to deny his feelings in such a manner, there's enough evidence that it really is the Child's influence for me to stick to that.  Even if Griffith solely took over the demonic aspects, those parts still recognize Guts and Casca as parents.

Quote
Or maybe the child, being still sentient inside of Griffith in spite of the situation, would be able to use Griffith's unearthly power on his behalf, especially near the sea, which has a very strong connexion to the astral world (not to mention the full moon)..

I believe they're seperate entities now.  Besides, the Demon Child was already powerful before Griffith's incarnation.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on March 25, 2005, 09:18:39 PM
I have an idea, crazy as it may be.  Perhaps the Mysterious Child is the result of Griffith shedding off any remaining part of the original demonic child inside him.  This offshoot may have inherited some of Griffith's powers, as well.  Just an idea, though.

Well it's a plausible possibility, even if I wonder how he'd be able to do that.

Well, I'd love to say that it's just Griffith blaming the Demon Child for his own emotions, but that seems too convenient.

Yeah, it would make things easier, but I really don't buy it.

Even if Griffith solely took over the demonic aspects, those parts still recognize Guts and Casca as parents.

That eventuality seems a bit far-fetched to me, though.

Besides, the Demon Child was already powerful before Griffith's incarnation.

Yes, but that powerful? To the point of being "superior"?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: SlimJ87D on June 01, 2006, 03:12:54 AM
I'll like to bring the moon child back into play. We haven't seen or heard from him for awhile, even though in Berserk it's only been a few weeks perhaps. But what do you think he is up to now? And what kind of powers (if any) do you think he has?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on June 01, 2006, 03:23:58 AM
Well thinking about it real quick... I think we will see him again when Guts and co. fianlly get ship bound... its probably a loooooong trip to Elfhelm and who knows... maybe he will guide them there.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Some Guy on June 01, 2006, 03:58:45 AM
  Yeah, I don't think it will show up again anytime soon.  I'd say after they arrive on Skellig Island.

  I've imagined that this child would have similar abilities to that of the current Griffith (i.e. nothing that would be readily apparent outside of appearing as a sort of astral being).

I wonder what type of role it plays in causality...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 01, 2006, 08:23:12 AM
Yeah, I don't think it will show up again anytime soon.

I third that. I don't think we'll learn more about him until later in the story, I see him as a middle and long term element in the plot, not a short term one.

I've imagined that this child would have similar abilities to that of the current Griffith (i.e. nothing that would be readily apparent outside of appearing as a sort of astral being).

Well, we haven't got much information on his powers/status for now but we do know that he's a "superior being", even though that's pretty vague. I think it's still a bit early to make comparisons with Griffith (although I've done it myself in Speculation Nation :SK:) since we also ignore the extent of Griffith's powers, but I think we can all agree that he's obviously in the big league and will eventually play an important role.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Woland on June 01, 2006, 07:47:33 PM
Heh, perhaps the child will show up next EPISODE to save Guts :guts:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Record Low on June 01, 2006, 10:19:28 PM
If the kid is indeed the Demon Child, cleansed of the taint Femto had inflicted him while abusing Casca, then how come did Griffith protect her compulsively when Guts fought Zodd on the hill, and why did he think of the Demon Child (referring to his own feelings) then and while watching the fight?

I like to think that the demon child has 2 dads and a mom....but thats just me...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Funkmasta Zeph on June 02, 2006, 01:27:10 AM
Going with what someone already mentioned. This may be too Inu-Yashey (which is nothing to be proud of) but I'm partial to the theory of Griffith having recently shedded the part of him that was the child. Maybe keeping the evil aspects, and losing any troublesome baggage from the childs mind.

I'm not sure how he would do that exactly, but he's one of the Godhand so he can do whatever he wants. Right?  :miura:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Lithrael on June 02, 2006, 01:44:23 AM
Interesting idea, but I can't really picture Griff wanting to do something like that.  As the kind of guy that would go taunt Guts just to see what it would do to him, Griff seems interested, almost in a detached way, in whatever little conflict is left in him after being Femto.  I doubt he'd go carve it out of himself. 

Course now I said that, it'll turn out that's exactly what Moonbaby is.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 02, 2006, 02:05:09 AM
I like to think that the demon child has 2 dads and a mom....but thats just me...

Well, it's explicitly stated that his father was Guts. And the Demon Child regarded him as such (haunting him and all), which is also the reason Griffith felt something when he watched him fight with Zodd. Femto corrupted the embryo, that's all.

Interesting idea, but I can't really picture Griff wanting to do something like that.

Me neither. But rather than thinking he wouldn't want to, I think he just can't. The Demon Child is the vessel he was incarnated in, I think it became an integral part of him at that time. And the fact we were shown these remnants of the Demon Child influencing his decisions makes the idea of "shedding" that part off even less likely to me (it would seem a bit superfluous if it was the case).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 03:17:03 PM
Well, I'm reviving this thread (and double posting, which you won't see often) with something I never paid attention to until today and that I think could be a scoop. Of course, it remains speculation for now so don't take it as a verified fact.

As you guys may or may not know, Miura added a page in volume 28 like he often does; this page is in episode 238, when the group is on the beach and right after they found the Moonlight Boy. I will post the part of this page that interests us below.

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Beach-Guts-presence.jpg)

As you can see, he's noticing a presence. Someone was there. This in itself already means much, but it could be Kushan casters (prior to the attack) or anything else. What matters is a panel on the following page, one that was already included in YA but that could have stayed unnoticed forever without the addition of the new page. It's this panel:

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Beach-Zodd.jpg)

A closer look at it:

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Beach-Zodd2.jpg)

Doesn't it remind you of somebody?

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Zodd-profile.jpg)

Yeah. I could find a better shot but you get the idea. And what this implies is pretty clear: The Moonlight Boy = Griffith. Of course, Zodd could have only been there on his own to spy on the group, but does that sound likely? Not much to me. The boy even got on the cliff when he disappeared, it can't possibly be a coincidence. And it fits with the fact Griffith felt the Demon Child's feelings inside of him. From that point on the speculations can go in every direction: the boy could have momentarily taken control of Griffith, or Griffith could have consciously done it, maybe out of guilt, maybe because he felt like being a family, etc. He could have a split-personality now. Or maybe the change in him was a lot bigger than we thought. Maybe the so-called "remnants" are an integral and vital part of him. And he can change his appearance too. I do think it was the boy's side in control at the time if that whole theory were to be true. And that'd also mean he can suppress the effects of his power on the Brand. Remember when he looked at that crocodile in the hut? Or when he repulsed Guts effortlessly? And yet nobody (well, neither Schierke nor Guts) noticed anything peculiarly odd with him, just a strange Od but nothing more precise. That's the power of a member of the God Hand.

It also adds a whole new dimension to Griffith's character, perfectly following what Miura introduced in volume 22. I can't help but marvel at how vicious leaving these clues is though, yet I just love it. So logical and obvious too, right under our noses all along. All it takes is to pay attention, let this be a lesson to everybody. And to me it even feels like Miura thought while compiling volume 28: "Bah, they'll never find out if I don't leave a bigger clue... *sigh* Ok, let's go for a big obvious one with a new page."
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: brinco on June 14, 2006, 03:35:03 PM
That's quite a theory, Aaz.  Maybe this is silly, but didn't Zodd have just one horn? Because in the picture it looks like it has two.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 03:37:09 PM
didn't Zodd have just one horn? Because in the picture it looks like it has two.

The picture of him I used is from back when he still had both horns. I just wanted one where we could see his profile. It doesn't mean anything in particular in regard to the rest.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 14, 2006, 03:40:13 PM
Jesus what an implication... This is HUGE!  Great find, Aaz.  I'm amazed that it fits in with all the evidence too.  Well, it certainly solidifies several mysteries regarding Griffith's connection with the Child, and our initial inklings that the Demon Child and it are related.

Quote
From that point on the speculations can go in every direction,
Oh, well then allow me  :guts:

Quote
the child could have taken control of Griffith, or Griffith could have consciously done it, maybe out of guilt, maybe because he felt like being a family, etc.
As you say, we certainly don't know the reasoning yet, but my first impression was that it may have something to do with what Schierke said regarding the Ocean's effect on magic.  I think Griffith may have been drawn there against his will.  Like Aaz mentioned, I'd still like to think of them as two seperate personalities, and I think that fits the bill thus far.  I don't think Griffith is masquerading as the Child, rather the Child is using Griffith's body while it's able to. Obviously, it likely has a lot to do with Guts' and Casca's proximity to him at the time in conjunction with the Ocean AND the full moon.  :carcus:

I wonder if Griffith retains his memories while in this state, or if they're lost.  If so, he'd have an integral understanding of Guts' current condition.  Furthermore, that possibility would allow plots in the future to incorporate a one-way, indirect conversation between Guts and Griffith, without Guts frothing at the mouth. :guts:

Quote
That's the power of a member of the God Hand.
That's the power of a SUPERIOR BEING, another clue that fits. I wonder if that same kanji for the episode title has been used for Griffith before...

Quote
...I just love it. So logical and obvious too, right under our noses all along. All it takes is to pay attention, let this be a lesson to everybody.
Seriously... how could we all miss an ENTIRE page for THIS long?!

That's quite a theory, Aaz.  Maybe this is silly, but didn't Zodd have just one horn? Because in the picture it looks like it has two.
Wow, are you serious? That's all you got out of this new information?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: brinco on June 14, 2006, 03:42:33 PM
I meant the hill picture.
(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Beach-Zodd2.jpg)

Although if it's true, it certainly make a lot of sense with the moonlight child powers and stuff
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 03:45:04 PM
Jesus what an implication... This is HUGE!  Great find, Aaz.  I'm amazed that it fits in with all the evidence too.  Well, it certainly solidifies several mysteries regarding Griffith's connection with the Child, and our initial inklings that the Demon Child and it are related.

Haha thanks, and yeah, this is just awesome.

I think Griffith may have been drawn there against his will.  Like Aaz mentioned, I'd still like to think of them as two seperate personalities, and I think that fits the bill thus far.

Could be. Or not. I think pretty much everything is possible right now. I could definitely see them as separate beings but also as one new being, both ideas seem viable. It's interesting to note that he came on Zodd's back and not alone too, and it means that Zodd knows. What an incredibly dangerous and powerful information. Does this mean the Skull Knight knows too? He disappeared right before Griffith the Child came up after all.

I wonder if Griffith retains his memories while in this state, or if they're lost.  If so, he'd have an integral understanding of Guts' current condition.  Furthermore, that possibility would allow plots in the future to incorporate a one-way, indirect conversation between Guts and Griffith, without Guts frothing at the mouth.

Yeah, whether he knows what's happening or just remembers being at one place and awakes at another, with a blank in-between. This really opens a lot of new possibilities for the development of their relationship. And man, when Casca's going to wake up... I can't even imagine.

That's the power of a SUPERIOR BEING, another clue that fits. I wonder if that same kanji for the episode title has been used for Griffith before...

Yeah, and guess what? We still haven't found what "Jan Anin" means yet. Maybe it's some obscure crypted dialect for "Griffith" or "The Hawk"  or something ("God Hand?"). At this point it'd almost seem natural to me.

I meant the hill picture.

Ah, well that's his wing on the left. We're seeing his profile.

PS: Well it looks like the Moonlight Boy will appear in Vritannis after all (sort of)! :void:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: brinco on June 14, 2006, 03:55:26 PM
Wow, are you serious? That's all you got out of this new information?

Obviously not.  Just want to check stupid details first.  I agree that's a great finding.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on June 14, 2006, 04:01:58 PM
Holy mother of God Hand, what a find! I never saw the Young Animal release for that episode, so I was basing everything off of the volume, but I never noticed that the thing on the hill resembles Zodd. After looking at it now, I'm amazed at myself for not seeing it, as it's fairly obvious. Wow :isidro:. Thanks for pointing this out, Aazealh!

Now for the speculating... I agree that the fact that the moon was full on the night the Moonlight Child appeared is incredibly significant. Along with what Aaz and Walter were saying, perhaps Griffith is overcome by the Moonlight Child whenever the moon is full, transforming into what Casca and Guts' child might have been like if he was left untainted by Femto. He could possibly have wandered off, instinctively drawn to his parents (afterall, Griffith is camped near Vritannis, so he'd be in the area), with Zodd simply keeping an eye on him and making sure he doesn't wander too far or get into any trouble (although he probably wouldn't be in mortal danger, being a Superior Being and all).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 04:05:34 PM
perhaps Griffith is overcome by the Moonlight Child whenever the moon is full, transforming into what Casca and Guts' child might have been like if he was left untainted by Femto.

Whoa, new age werewolf. :beast: It's indeed quite plausible, great supposition. The ocean is a bit restrictive, but the full moon element would work perfectly.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 14, 2006, 04:15:06 PM
Yeah, whether he knows what's happening or just remembers being at one place and awakes at another, with a blank in-between. This really opens a lot of new possibilities for the development of their relationship. And man, when Casca's going to wake up... I can't even imagine.
Wow, yeah... Poor Casca.  It'll be like being divorced and having joint custody...

The Idea of Evil: "Ok, the mother can only see the Child on full moons, and when he's not conquering the Human World."
Casca: "Is 3:30 on Saturday good for you?"
Griffith: "Sat- This Saturday? Sorry uh, "mom".  I've got other plans."

Seriously though, this is definitely another wrench in the works for her unhindered, happy reunion with Guts.  Now she'll have to choose between Moonlight Nanny and Warrior Avenger.

Quote
Yeah, and guess what? We still haven't found what "Jan Anin" means yet. Maybe it's some obscure crypted dialect for "Griffith" or "The Hawk"  or something ("God Hand?"). At this point it'd almost seem natural to me.
Argh, we don't know Jan Anin yet?  Damn you Miura... :miura:  (just looked at the katakana... maybe it's Jananin with no spaces?)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on June 14, 2006, 04:24:42 PM
Plus, how is Guts going to feel once (if?) it's revealed to him? Will he be able to kill Griffith knowing that (and this is still just speculation) the untainted form of his child still exists inside the Hawk? The plot thickens... :carcus:

EDIT:

It's interesting to note that he came on Zodd's back and not alone too, and it means that Zodd knows. What an incredibly dangerous and powerful information. Does this mean the Skull Knight knows too? He disappeared right before Griffith the Child came up after all.

If he didn't just wander off and actually flew there on Zodd's back, that almost certainly implies that Griffith is totally aware of what he's doing when in the guise of the Child.  However, if the Child didn't ride on Zodd to the beach (with Zodd simply following the Child and keeping track of him), then that implies that Griffith is not conscious of his actions when transformed.  Damnit, I hope Miura reveals what's going on sooner than he's done/doing with the mysteries of Skull Knight. :miura:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 14, 2006, 04:32:33 PM
Plus, how is Guts going to feel once (if?) it's revealed to him?  Will he be able to kill Griffith knowing that (and this is still just speculation) the untainted form of his child still exists inside the Hawk?  The plot thickens... :carcus:
Yeah, it's yet another reason for Guts to forget his hatred.  But, while he's certainly developed as a character since volume 14, he had no trouble stomping on his own child then  :guts:.  Then again, he wasn't fully grasping the situation at the time.  Anyway, I still think the major conflict will be with Casca, not Guts.

This new revelation finally gives some form to Skully's words "What you wish for may not be what she wishes for..."
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on June 14, 2006, 04:36:32 PM
This new revelation finally gives some form to Skully's words "What you wish for may not be what she wishes for..."

No kidding. :guts: :???: :griff:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 04:38:14 PM
Well, according (mostly) to my instinct Jananin is Sanskrit for "newborn." So it refers to the fact the Child is obviously young, but also to Femto's incarnation. Of course that's not confirmed at all. And it's probably wrong. :void:

This new revelation finally gives some form to Skully's words "What you wish for may not be what she wishes for..."

Guts: "I'm not sure anymore. How about we drop it and just live happily? I mean you should have seen us 3 back in the hut, it was adorable. Damn it, he's my son!"

Casca: "What the fuck!? He raped me and the result was a deformed freak right? Just kill it, or are you not enough of a man to avenge your girl, uh?"

Guts: "..."
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on June 14, 2006, 05:01:43 PM
Whoa...a theory to wrap ur head around! Reading all the posts it all sounds plausible...but the panel - the one that's supposed to be Zodd-, something just bothers me about it. I don't kno, it could be, but it's a stretch...at least in my mind at this moment. I'll try and let it stew for awhile. Now about Zodd, he only cares about serving Griffith at this point. Agreed? So does that mean, he and Griffith are talking for a moment the BOOM, he transforms becomes the moonchild. Wouldn't Zodd point, look around for a moment, and ask "Who the hell are you?!" Then what? Maybe the child controls Zodd due to his higher being status. It just seems very odd for me. Even if he sees the Moonlight child helping Guts and Co., helping Guts is going against Griffith....!!!! AHHHHH!!!!!! So much to think about.... :???:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 14, 2006, 05:09:52 PM
Well, according (mostly) to my instinct Jananin is Sanskrit for "newborn." So it refers to the fact the Child is obvious young, but also to Femto's incarnation. Of course that's not confirmed at all.
Yeah, after some SERIOUS research (google XD), Janani[n] is a word found in many cultures, but primarily Indian, Hindu and African.  The Hindu definition is  evocative of Griffith to me: "someone that has talked to God and knows 'the Truth' ", for African, Janani are "spirits of the dead who protect [their tribe]". Aaz found the Indian/Sanskrit one, though I found it just to mean "Birth."  But I agree, in this context, it makes more sense as newborn. 

While these definitions are all vaguely congruous to the Child, we won't know for sure until someone more qualified with the word comes along and teaches us...

Maybe the child controls Zodd due to his higher being status. It just seems very odd for me. Even if he sees the Moonlight child helping Guts and Co., helping Guts is going against Griffith....!!!!
I don't think it's that hard to understand.  Zodd serves Griffith, who just happens to have a bit of a multiple-personality disorder.  They're the same flesh though, and still his master, ultimately.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 14, 2006, 05:11:04 PM
the panel - the one that's supposed to be Zodd-, something just bothers me about it. I don't kno, it could be, but it's a stretch...at least in my mind at this moment. I'll try and let it stew for awhile.

I think it's pretty clear it's him. He was watching the group on the beach from the top of the cliff. Then he turned around and that's what's shown in the panel, his profile in the middle of this action.

Now about Zodd, he only cares about serving Griffith at this point. Agreed?

Well, maybe not just that. We don't know much about his motives, although he's indeed serving Griffith diligently (and based on that it makes sense he'd serve the Child too).

So does that mean, he and Griffith are talking for a moment the BOOM, he transforms becomes the moonchild. Wouldn't Zodd point, look around for a moment, and ask "Who the hell are you?!" Then what? Maybe the child controls Zodd due to his higher being status. It just seems very odd for me.

Uhh no, I don't think that's how it went. Sounds very odd and unlikely, like you said.

Still, we won't know for sure until someone more qualified with the word comes along and teaches us...

Yeah, we should search for it in Japanese to get a real, serious clue. But I really don't have the time right now. It's time we put some real effort into it and find out though.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: smoke on June 14, 2006, 05:33:48 PM
Wow

Yeah, I think you guys figured it out. Crazy.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Some Guy on June 14, 2006, 06:45:48 PM
 :isidro:

Great find Aaz.  Looking at it it does seem to have an uncanny resemblance to Zodd

So going by this the Moonlight Child IS Griffith??  Assuming this is true it will definitely make some interesting character situations.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: pippin22 on June 14, 2006, 06:58:08 PM
the panel - the one that's supposed to be Zodd-, something just bothers me about it. I don't kno, it could be, but it's a stretch...at least in my mind at this moment.

I wouldn't buy it either, if Miura hadn't added the page before it... you think he added it for no reason?

Good eye Aazealh. :zodd:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on June 14, 2006, 07:04:11 PM
Ok, I re-read everything and yea I have to admit, it does look like Zodd is duckin outta the way. This is too much!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Lithrael on June 14, 2006, 07:28:38 PM
Wow.  Aaz are teh sharp eyed hawk. 

..HAWK?!?!  :isidro:

Maybe Zodd was there *looking for* Griff?  "Crap, leader has disappeared and we march to war like TOMORROW.."
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Griffith on June 14, 2006, 09:18:26 PM
SUPER find by Aaz, and great speculation guys, and I hate to be the wet blanket... but lets not get too fast and loose with the facts here. We're already talking about it like we've scientifically proven something besides a rorschach test Zodd looks to be behind that hill, or should I say grassy knoll? =)

All that means is Zodd was there, something obviously supported by the events of episode 275. Yeah, I'm being boring and obtuse, but you guys already took the fun position, so now I'm forced into playing devil's advocate.

To me, this raises more questions than gives answers, and it's dangerous to go supposing a bunch of things about the situation based on this one panel for which we don't know the context (like, if Griffith is actually there or not).

Anyway, I'm not poo-pooing anything, I love all the ideas here, I'm just trying to maintain that the possibilities are totally wide open as Aaz said earlier. We don't want to assume too much too soon and erroniously pigeonhole this into our own dogma.

BTW, I hate you all for making me this guy, the "settle down" guy. =)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Lithrael on June 14, 2006, 09:43:17 PM
 :serpico:  Sorry Griff.  Well as for less-Child-ey speculation, it's also very possible that Zodd was there because of Skull Knight's recent presence and NOT because of the kid. 
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 14, 2006, 10:41:29 PM
Oh, I certainly don't want to exclude other possibilities.  It's just that Aaz's assumption was just so exciting, I couldn't resist ;D.  I can definitely appreciate a Devil's Advocate since virtually everyone's SOLD on the premise. But there's still a lot of unexplored possibilities if we take Zodd's appearance on the beach as the fulcrum for further speculation.  I'll humor a few of the ones I've been bouncing around my head:

Griffith could be projecting this manifestation from a distance, and Zodd's just there as transportation before and after the show.  It could also be A TRAP (admiral_ackbar.jpg): Griffith slipping past Guts' defensive line to see the Armor in person, while still allowing the Child to have his little moment with his parents in the moonlight.  :guts:

But seriously, one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Child's enigmatic exit in ep 243. Where's he headed?  Well, it certainly seems like he's climbing at least near where Zodd was seen earlier in ep 238.  On page 13 there's a panel that shows the moon near a cliff, then another on page 14 behind Casca that looks very similar to where Zodd was.  Finally, on page 15 the Child has mounted the same cliff focused on in previous pages, where he watches the Band passing the Makara...

:zodd: : "Put on your shoes, Griffy. Time to go home." 

It's still the most likely possibility explored in this thread, given what we know, but it's still far from being fact.  Though I'd still like to see a lot more possibilities explored.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: dwarfkicker on June 15, 2006, 02:35:28 AM
I hope this new theory of yours plays out, Aaz.  If this turns out to be true it just opens an ass load of possibilities for this story, and I'm liking that.  I can't help it but I'm already looking at this as being true.  Just wow :isidro:

Great find Aaz.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 03:04:20 AM
Ok, I re-read everything and yea I have to admit, it does look like Zodd is duckin outta the way.

Yeah. The horn's shape is characteristic. It just screams his name.

To me, this raises more questions than gives answers, and it's dangerous to go supposing a bunch of things about the situation based on this one panel for which we don't know the context (like, if Griffith is actually there or not).

Of course, this all has yet to be confirmed. It's still clearly just speculation. But in the end, considering all the "coincidences" and if we take into consideration the nature of the child, his attitude, his powers, how Casca reacted to him, the episode titles, and what Miura showed us in volume 22, it feels natural and logical to think he's simply Griffith to me (now how the child/Griffith combo works is another question altogether, and stays completely open for now). Anyway we can favor a theory without refusing to consider others, and I think it'd be wrong to assert that it has nothing more going for it than other alternatives such as "Zodd stumbled on them while checking on the progress of Daiba's fleet." IMHO this definitely brings a new light and perspective on the events that took place as well as the future development of the story, and I have a feeling the most exciting, interesting and spelled out explanation is the good one.

But yeah, maybe Zodd was collecting herbs for dinner on the cliff. In his apostle form. With the wings out. I'm just going to cautiously stick to the other explanation until we learn more. =)

PS: Sorry for only leaving you the role of the bad guy. :void:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 15, 2006, 06:10:53 AM
I have to admit Aaz, when I first started reading this thread I wasn't going to bother with it. But after looking at that panel again, it does seem pretty obvious that, that is Zodd in the background. The cloud behind him is totally a framing device to make it more noticable. On the other hand though...alot of stuff discussed feels like a "what if Skullknight is Guts from the future?!!!!" theory that the child is Griffith. Obviously he is related to Griffith...literally. But although you raise fairly valid points, I'm gonna have to see to believe on this one. Amazing find though. No one reads Berserk like Aaz.  :miura: :zodd:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 15, 2006, 07:15:29 AM
Congrats Aaz, really sharp eyes :SK:
*jumps cautiously on the band wagon* The implications are huge, but there is still some way to go before we can verify any theory. We will probably have to wait at least till the next full moon for futher evidence. Though whichever direction Miura decides to take this, I'm sure it will be crucial for the whole plot.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 07:35:07 AM
Hey Borgoff,

alot of stuff discussed feels like a "what if Skullknight is Guts from the future?!!!!" theory that the child is Griffith.

Please do me, yourself, and everybody else a favor by not making this kind of comparison. We're talking about a theory that has a lot of elements behind it and that has virtually no viable alternative here, so I'd like to see you put some more effort into proving your point if you're going to say that. We already know that Femto was incarnated in the Demon Child's body. That he felt the child's emotions inside of him. And everybody's assuming the Demon Child and the Moonlight Child are related, or even that they're one and the same. This was the missing link, although nothing is confirmed yet. If the Moonlight Child is Griffith then it allows him to be the Demon Child too, and it explains his power and a lot of other things. A lot of elements fit, that's the reason people are pumped about it. After that, if we take for a premise this theory is true, the real question is to know how exactly they interact and coexist. A lot of variants are possible that could really go from one side to the complete opposite, and I invite everybody to share their (serious) thoughts about possible scenarios. You also say that:

Obviously he is related to Griffith...literally.

Well then how exactly is he obviously and literally related to Griffith if the idea seems totally ridiculous to you (which is what the "SK is Guts from the future" joke is)? It seems somehow contradictory to me. Plus it's just a kid that showed up on the beach, maybe he's the Hanafubuku .

although you raise fairly valid points, I'm gonna have to see to believe on this one.

Sure, it's up to you. :SK:

We will probably have to wait at least till the next full moon for futher evidence.

Well, we've seen Griffith with the moon (not full) in the last page of 258... Another hint?! :void:

Now to argue against myself a bit, I'd say that the fact the Brand didn't react at all is odd, and that I'm not convinced it could be suppressed. Yet Schierke didn't feel anything either in spite of the Child's incredible power (except for a vague "strange Od" emanating from him), so that argument retains some validity because it's very strange overall. But there's also his astral representation. It's clearly a kid, not a Hawk or anything. So that means it changes automatically, can be changed by the child/Griffith, or that both are separate entities. It seems to be made of solid light though, that could easily be related to Griffith again. And it also "appeared" suddenly when the group was in danger, as if the Child had chosen to reveal his power because he had no other choice. That lends more strength to the "suppressed power" theory. Bah.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 15, 2006, 07:49:32 AM
Quote
Well, we've seen Griffith with the moon (not full) in the last page of 258... Another hint?! Void
Yeah, it looks like three quarters fool, so the next faze is - that's right :serpico:
On that note I was trying to see the moon in the last few episodes, but was unable to, which doesn't prove anything because it's probably been a week (manga time) betwen ep.258 and now. Who knows maybe Zodd is on a stork-like mission yet again (though he doesn't appear to carrying anybody, the child itself could be near).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 08:05:12 AM
On that note I was trying to see the moon in the last few episodes, but was unable to

It should still be about the same, although it looks like a crescent behind Serpico in episode 261 (but it looks at least three quarters full in 264, if what the Pontiff sees is real).

it's probably been a week (manga time) betwen ep.258 and now.

Actually, it's only been a few days. Based on the continuity shown in the manga, 3 days have passed since the night on the beach and until now.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: NTSC-J on June 15, 2006, 11:32:23 AM
Brilliant sleuthing Aaz, it's a very sound theory. At first I thought the panel showing Zodd's silhouette was reaching a bit, but looking at my copy of the manga it does look pretty convincing. The horn and tip of the wing are irregular shapes in comparison to the rest of the rocky cliff.

I'm still not sure on the werewolf aspect of Griffith turning into the moon child. In vol 27 (not sure which episode) when Zodd and Griffith retreive Charlotte, there's a two-page spread of them flying over what looks like a full moon. Now judging by the continuity, this would be around the night before the moon child's appearance on the beach, so it is conceivable that Griffith was close to transforming, although it would have to be right after they drop Charlotte off.

Considering the effects of the moon, maybe the child only appears when Casca is menstruating and has more to do with her than with Griffith. I don't think so though.

As for why the moon has any sort of power over Griffith now may have to do with how the Eclipse works. When the moon blocked out the sun before it meant time for the birth feast.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 12:33:07 PM
Brilliant sleuthing Aaz, it's a very sound theory.

Thanks, and thanks to everybody else too.

I'm still not sure on the werewolf aspect of Griffith turning into the moon child.

Haha well, while it's an interesting idea for now it's still 100% speculative (I think Rhombaad was really just tossing the idea out there), so I can't blame you for that. I find it pretty plausible nevertheless, and I think it'd be cool if it ended up being true. That would allow a lot of interesting development for the plot. I'm still open to any other eventuality for now anyway (as I think we should all be).

In vol 27 (not sure which episode) when Zodd and Griffith retreive Charlotte, there's a two-page spread of them flying over what looks like a full moon. Now judging by the continuity, this would be around the night before the moon child's appearance on the beach

It was almost a full moon but not quite. This is made clear by the shot of Zodd's wing in front of it that Locus sees, among others (it can also be seen through Charlotte's window for example).

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Zodd-moon.jpg)

So it fits with the continuity, it could have been a few days before the events on the beach. Concerning what you said about Casca's menstruation I'll have to agree that it seems unlikely for now. I also see the phenomenon as having more to do with the Child himself than other people (like Casca or Guts). And about the moon's power and the Eclipse... That's the first thing that comes to mind of course, but I'm not sure it's pertinent. If anything the defining element should have been present during the Incarnation ceremony, and while it mirrored the Occultation no real solar eclipse occurred.

It's still interesting in this regard even if trivial though, and could also be linked (albeit superficially) to SK's analogy of the events taking place at the time (that world being the reflection of the moon on water, and Guts having to create ripples to change the events). Hmm well I'll stop this post now since otherwise I feel like I'll just start rambling.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 15, 2006, 02:22:10 PM
Hey Aaz, I didn't mean to offend in any way by my comparison. I give your theory alot more credit than the SK one hands down. I was just being sarcastic.  :badbone: I totally agree the silhouette is Zodd, especially with that last picture you posted. The werewolf theory isn't working for me so much, but I do think it's pretty cool.  :guts: Like I said, I'm just gonna wait to see what happens with that one because at this point it's a little tough to say how exaclty the whole thing physically would work...not to discredit it...but solely on the fact that at this point we don't have a ton of facts. If you are 100% right though, I think it'd be amazing for the story and you would be the man. I was also wondering if possibly we may be leaving out some details on Zodd's involvment though...? Is he just a big lug who can't fit behind a hill while babysitting or do you think there's more to his involvment that could maybe even add a new dynamic to his character?

ps - I think Skully and Guts should go for coffee and catch up.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 02:43:43 PM
Hey Aaz, I didn't mean to offend in any way by my comparison. I give your theory alot more credit than the SK one hands down. I was just being sarcastic.

Ok, that's cool. I thought you didn't mean it in a bad way but in doubt I preferred to make it clear since to me the comparison pretty much meant "it's worthless."

I'm just gonna wait to see what happens with that one because at this point it's a little tough to say how exaclty the whole thing physically would work...not to discredit it...but solely on the fact that at this point we don't have a ton of facts.

Yeah, I can understand that like I said. It's all still mostly conjectural for now.

I was also wondering if possibly we may be leaving out some details on Zodd's involvment though...? Is he just a big lug who can't fit behind a hill while babysitting or do you think there's more to his involvment that could maybe even add a new dynamic to his character?

I'm glad you mention that actually since nobody really commented on it besides me until now. I think this further proves that Zodd is more knowledgeable and plays a bigger role than one might think at first. To witness such things and remain quiet about them, to appear as often through the series "observing" events as he does... It places him next to SK. One goes, the other arrives, literally. Not to mention all the little talks they have. When I think about his comment on the Berserk's armor in volume 26 it really makes me wonder how long he's really been around and what he's seen. So to answer your question I don't think this adds a new dynamic to his character, but it confirms what we've been suspecting for a while: that there's more to him than meets the eye.

I also do think he's a big oaf who can't hide behind a hill while peaking at people though :guts: (and actually Griffith and I were joking about it this morning).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on June 15, 2006, 04:24:24 PM
When Mule and Sonja return to the campsite, that was episode (goes to check)...ep 258, the last page is Griffith staring at the moon, reinforcing the whole importance of the moon. (P.S.) This episode was later removed if I'm correct right? Was it because Miura felt it interupted the pacing or some other reason? :carcus:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on June 15, 2006, 04:39:24 PM
When Mule and Sonja return to the campsite, that was episode (goes to check)...ep 258, the last page is Griffith staring at the moon, reinforcing the whole importance of the moon. (P.S.) This episode was later removed if I'm correct right? Was it because Miura felt it interupted the pacing or some other reason? :carcus:

It wasn't removed, it was just moved ahead to volume 29, after Sonia and Mule leave Vritannis for Griffith's camp.  Miura just put it in a different order than it came out in YA.  He did this before with episodes 177 and 178.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 15, 2006, 04:39:41 PM
When Mule and Sonja return to the campsite, that was episode (goes to check)...ep 258, the last page is Griffith staring at the moon, reinforcing the whole importance of the moon.

Oh, really? :casca:

Well, we've seen Griffith with the moon (not full) in the last page of 258... Another hint?! :void:

No hard feelings. :badbone:

This episode was later removed if I'm correct right? Was it because Miura felt it interupted the pacing or some other reason?

It was just moved from a volume to another. Check this thread for details: http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=4989.0
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Uriel on June 15, 2006, 04:40:12 PM
You already know what I think of this Aaz. Great job! You are surely the most awesome you there is :badbone:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on June 15, 2006, 06:01:34 PM
No hard feelings. :badbone:

Damnit :judo:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Iscariot on June 16, 2006, 03:47:22 AM
It's still interesting in this regard even if trivial though, and could also be linked (albeit superficially) to SK's analogy of the events taking place at the time (that world being the reflection of the moon on water, and Guts having to create ripples to change the events).
I'm glad you brought this up. I know you think I take the analogies too far, but in the Berserk world it really seems that they could be read as hints as well. I hate the fact that there really is no direct proof, just postulation... Yet I just know Miura will draw the moon's reflection on the ocean sooner or later! How teasing...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Griffith on June 16, 2006, 04:06:33 AM
Analogies are helpful when, as in Aaz's example, they're actually explicitly written into the story and not just useless conjecture. Speaking of which...

(http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/moononthewater.jpg)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Iscariot on June 16, 2006, 04:38:39 AM
Speaking of which...
Beautiful.
Useless conjecture or not, there's a lot out there that can be connected. It just depends on if you're searching for it with a biased frenzy, as I'm prone to doing.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 05:12:14 AM
I'm glad you brought this up. I know you think I take the analogies too far, but in the Berserk world it really seems that they could be read as hints as well.

Like Griffith said, there's a difference between analogies that are explicitly written in the story and when you're just inventing them to produce some useless and baseless conjecture. Now I'd like you not to pollute this thread to try to bring some half-assed justification to what you were saying in another one, since you apparently have nothing to say that's on topic. You could always quote this thread in the Underlying Vein one if needed. Thanks in advance.

I hate the fact that there really is no direct proof, just postulation...

There's often direct proof of things. Then there are things that can relate, with a various degree of superficiality. And finally there's stuff that's just really far-fetched and unrelated.

Useless conjecture or not, there's a lot out there that can be connected. It just depends on if you're searching for it with a biased frenzy, as I'm prone to doing.

Everything can be connected. It just depends on how far you're willing to take things. But in the end to connect unrelated stuff to relevant one just because you think it's fun weakens the original point, like I told you before.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 16, 2006, 05:40:28 AM
I happened to come accross this tonight....volume 21, page 226-227.
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/kalhuun/curious.jpg)

Looks like Miura was prepping us for the little Zodd and go seek game in vol. 28 and we didn't even know it.  :guts:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 05:46:06 AM
Looks like Miura was prepping us for the little Zodd and go seek game in vol. 28 and we didn't even know it.

Well, that's just Guts and Casca fleeing on horse and the focus is on them, so actually I'm not sure it's directly related. That makes me wonder if we can play "Where's Waldo?" with Zodd through all the volumes though. :guts:

Anyway, the topic is still open to speculation guys, don't hesitate to share your ideas!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 16, 2006, 05:50:22 AM
I was just pointing out that it was a very similar looking shot, and the same type of technique only this time, revealed what was behind the hill because there's no reason to really hide it. I think Miura may have put it there to train the reader's eye to notice that type of thing if Zodd really was the second gunman.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 06:00:01 AM
I was just pointing out that it was a very similar looking shot, and the same type of technique only this time, revealed what was behind the hill because there's no reason to really hide it. I think Miura may have put it there to train the reader's eye to notice that type of thing if Zodd really was the second gunman.

Yeah, I know what you meant, but like I said I don't think that was it. With 6 volumes in between and all, plus the fact we've seen some of this stuff before at regular intervals, I don't think there was a conscious effort from Miura to hint at the reader he'd do the same thing again 4 years later. However, and I don't think we've talked about it in this thread yet, this could be related to what Zodd did in volume 8 during the battle of Doldrey (though it might not have any real significance in regard to the present case).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 16, 2006, 06:14:46 AM
Well, it wouldn't be impossible for him to improvise it into a script he's already written. In fact, that type of thing looks like something he came up with as an afterthought. I'm sure he has most of, if not the whole story already mapped out. I don't think it's impossible to assume he could've looked back on previous volumes if he didn't think to do it from the beginning. This isn't a big deal though. I thought it might be a neat tidbit for people to check out all the same. If we're going to fly off the handle thinking Griffith is like the holy trinity/werewolf I don't think it's too far fetched to say those panels look very much alike and are obviously in place to serve some purpose. :carcus: In this case I think it is to demonstrate how a future clue might work/appear. Thats all from me.  :guts:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Iscariot on June 16, 2006, 06:21:55 AM
Now I'd like you not to pollute this thread to try to bring some half-assed justification to what you were saying in another one, since you apparently have nothing to say that's on topic.
I was going to continue on about the moon's reflection, but Griffith cut that short.

There's often direct proof of things. Then there are things that can relate, with a various degree of superficiality. And finally there's stuff that's just really far-fetched and unrelated.
I'll try to keep those categories in mind.

Everything can be connected. It just depends on how far you're willing to take things. But in the end to connect unrelated stuff to relevant one just because you think it's fun weakens the original point, like I told you before.
Believe it or not, I'm usually a pretty logical person. I see your point, strong significance isn't worth corrupting, even with fun. Just hope this doesn't mean I have to abandon my attempts at being jocular... :griff:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 06:57:07 AM
Well, it wouldn't be impossible for him to improvise it into a script he's already written. In fact, that type of thing looks like something he came up with as an afterthought. I'm sure he has most of, if not the whole story already mapped out. I don't think it's impossible to assume he could've looked back on previous volumes if he didn't think to do it from the beginning. This isn't a big deal though.

I agree with all of this, but that doesn't change what I said, on the contrary. If he added it as an afterthought or while planning the finer details of the plot (which is likely, as this is what his breaks are used for), it makes it unlikely that he created that panel of Guts fleeing on horse with Casca 4 years before with the one from volume 28 in mind. It would have to be the other way around for this reasoning to work. It's not a big deal like you said, but I still don't believe it's the case.

If we're going to fly off the handle thinking Griffith is like the holy trinity/werewolf I don't think it's too far fetched to say those panels look very much alike and are obviously in place to serve some purpose.

Well, I think it's far-fetched actually, even in regard to the "Griffith changes into the Moonlight Child at full moons" theory. But it's good that you posted it anyway, every speculation is welcome even if it turns out to be unlikely. About the panels looking alike though, there's a major difference: the scene you posted shows Guts and Casca going away, after the reader was shown large shots of their escape. They just become less visible as they disappear behind the horizon. The one with Zodd on the beach is quite different in this respect.

I was going to continue on about the moon's reflection, but Griffith cut that short.

Well, he just replied to your post. It's not like you were still writing it when he posted, so that means you had already said what you wanted to.

Believe it or not, I'm usually a pretty logical person. I see your point, strong significance isn't worth corrupting, even with fun. Just hope this doesn't mean I have to abandon my attempts at being jocular...

You can post humorous stuff and all, it's cool. But there should be a clear distinction between jokes and elaborate, educated speculation, as well as between facts and wild, baseless speculation.

Anyway guys, I'd like really to hear more serious thoughts about the Child/Griffith relationship instead of these mini-arguments.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Iscariot on June 16, 2006, 07:20:29 AM
Anyway guys, I'd like really to hear more serious thoughts about the Child/Griffith relationship instead of these mini-arguments.

If your theory proves true, I'd think Griffith and the child to be interdependent. Also, I think Griffith, while Femto, affected the fetus in another way, similar to Casca's... mind state. Perhaps, like Casca, if the child ever meets King Hanafubuku, he would be allowed a little dialogue. More than what we've heard from him on the astral plane, atleast. Just a thought.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 09:16:04 AM
I think Griffith, while Femto, affected the fetus in another way, similar to Casca's... mind state. Perhaps, like Casca, if the child ever meets King Hanafubuku, he would be allowed a little dialogue. More than what we've heard from him on the astral plane, atleast.

Well, the Demon Child wasn't mentally impaired (in contrast with his physical condition), and the Moonlight Child doesn't seem to be either. I think he'll get more dialogue in the future regardless of meeting the Hanafubuku .
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Iscariot on June 16, 2006, 11:48:28 AM
At first I thought he was just shy, but then he climbed on Guts' shoulders. He never answered to Isidro, but maybe he just didn't pay him any mind. Yet he did speak to Guts in the astral/mental plane... So you're right, he can't be called "mentally impaired". How then would you define the moonlight child's... strangeness? To me, he moved and acted similarly to Casca. Then again, Casca just acts childlike... Going with your new theory, do you believe Griffith was spiritually and mentally confining (or simply muting) the child until Guts was berserk and the child strongly pushed to calm him/protect his mother?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 16, 2006, 12:45:06 PM
How then would you define the moonlight child's... strangeness?

Well, I think "strange" is a good definition.

do you believe Griffith was spiritually and mentally confining (or simply muting) the child until Guts was berserk and the child strongly pushed to calm him/protect his mother?

Hmm no, I don't think so. No matter who was in control at that time, I believe he was consciously restraining his powers as to not awake suspicion (same thing about remaining silent). When he saw that things were going bad he had no choice but to reveal himself and act to prevent the disaster, disappearing right after that to avoid dealing with Guts' questions. Further proof that this was a careful and thought-out action can be seen in the way he dealt with Guts. He was gentle, talked to him calmly, and touched him lightly like one would approach a frightened animal. He cared about him as much as he did about the others, it wasn't an impulsive or panicked move.

His original intention when he came to the beach was probably just to spend a night with mommy and daddy (assuming that Guts & Casca are in fact his parents), disappearing in the middle of the night while everybody would have been asleep. They would have thought he was just a strange kid from a nearby village that had gone wandering at night, but things went astray and we know the result.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: fuxberg on June 16, 2006, 04:14:38 PM
So.. If Aaz's theory is correct.. We should see Griffith protecting Guts (sort of) in the next episode.. I mean.. Guts is his daddy  :serpico:
Like i've said in the Thread of Episode 275  :void:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 16, 2006, 07:41:33 PM
So.. If Aaz's theory is correct.. We should see Griffith protecting Guts (sort of) in the next episode.. I mean.. Guts is his daddy  :serpico:
Like i've said in the Thread of Episode 275  :void:
Not necessarily.  You're assuming they're the same personality.  But given their obvious differences in feelings (or at least attitude) towards Guts and Casca, they're likely split-personalities inhabiting the same flesh.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 16, 2006, 09:02:50 PM
Thinking about Griffith's apparent MPD, it kinda resembles an ego struggle within him. Meaning that the child is trying to take over gradually. At first we just see its emotions manifest themselves and Griffith performing an involuntary action (saving Casca), but now it is managed to get full control, literally taking over Griffith's body. IMHO the development so far would indicate that the child is getting stronger, but as far as the outcome of this struggle is concerned its to early to speculate.
It also casts a different light on Zodd and the whole USO thing. He obviously is aware of Griffit's "condition" which makes me wander which of the two is he actually folowing.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: fuxberg on June 16, 2006, 10:36:10 PM
Not necessarily.  You're assuming they're the same personality.  But given their obvious differences in feelings (or at least attitude) towards Guts and Casca, they're likely split-personalities inhabiting the same flesh.

Yes i realize that, but since the battle takes place "near" the sea and at night (is it full moon?) that might make Griffith protect at least Casca.. Or Guts..
Bah.. I'll just sit and wait for the next episode.
But it's a darn good theory you got there   :badbone:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 16, 2006, 10:44:28 PM
Yes i realize that, but since the battle takes place "near" the sea and at night (is it full moon?) that might make Griffith protect at least Casca.. Or Guts..
Bah.. I'll just sit and wait for the next episode.
But it's a darn good theory you got there   :badbone:
It's already been mentioned earlier that it's been ~3 days since the full moon.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Borgoff on June 17, 2006, 03:25:24 AM
it makes it unlikely that he created that panel of Guts fleeing on horse with Casca 4 years before with the one from volume 28 in mind. It would have to be the other way around for this reasoning to work.

You misunderstood...maybe I used the word afterthought in the wrong context, possibly. I think that Miura wanted to leave a clue...(the one you found.) and thought, "how can I do this?"...I believe he may have possibly decided to use a similar technique used in the panel I found to illustrate the clue. That's all. The fact that it's Guts or even if it was Bazuzo on the horse it doesn't matter. The panels are very similar, and it's the visual aspect Miura is trying to tune into.

About the panels looking alike though, there's a major difference: the scene you posted shows Guts and Casca going away, after the reader was shown large shots of their escape. They just become less visible as they disappear behind the horizon. The one with Zodd on the beach is quite different in this respect.

The panels do look alike. Anyone can look at them and see that. Obvisously what's actually going on in the story is going to be different if they are in separate volumes.
I don't see where there could be any discrepency because you can physically look right at it and see that all that panel does is re-enforce your theory that Zodd is behind the hill in vol. 28, which I agree with.

Anyhoo....back to the Moonchild... We can safely assume he is the offspring of Guts/Casca due to his appearance and Casca's reaction to him especially. His powers, to whatever extent they may be would be due to being the seed of a Godhand. The deformed one chose an evil form, perhaps this one chose a different form and wasn't tainted with evil. He's obviously come from a higher plane due to his entrance into the plot. Why does Zodd care to be there? Zodd cares alot about Griff these days, if the Moonchild really is their offspring Griffith probably wants something to do with him. I'll stop this here because I'm sure it'll get shot down pretty quick, but hopefully it'll add something worth discussing.

Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on June 17, 2006, 03:57:18 AM
Anyhoo....back to the Moonchild... We can safely assume he is the offspring of Guts/Casca due to his appearance and Casca's reaction to him especially. His powers, to whatever extent they may be would be due to being the seed of a Godhand. The deformed one chose an evil form, perhaps this one chose a different form and wasn't tainted with evil. He's obviously come from a higher plane due to his entrance into the plot. Why does Zodd care to be there? Zodd cares alot about Griff these days, if the Moonchild really is their offspring Griffith probably wants something to do with him. I'll stop this here because I'm sure it'll get shot down pretty quick, but hopefully it'll add something worth discussing.

Seeing how Griffith was reincarnated using the child of Guts and Casca, I can't imagine the child walking around as a separate entity from Griffith.  I think that if it is their child, Griffith has to be physically connected to it.  Least that's the way I see it.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 17, 2006, 05:19:42 AM
Why does Zodd care to be there? Zodd cares alot about Griff these days, if the Moonchild really is their offspring Griffith probably wants something to do with him.
Yeah, Aaz mentioned before the possibility that Zodd is merely spying on them, ala the Doldrey battle.  However, the Child's exit in ep 243, virtually on the same hill Zodd appeared on earlier... is certainly suspicious.

Quote
I'll stop this here because I'm sure it'll get shot down pretty quick, but hopefully it'll add something worth discussing.
Don't be so pessimistic, it's as feasible as any other idea at this point.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 17, 2006, 06:37:51 AM
We should see Griffith protecting Guts (sort of) in the next episode.. I mean.. Guts is his daddy. Like i've said in the Thread of Episode 275

You mean like you've said after you saw my fake preview? :badbone:

Thinking about Griffith's apparent MPD, it kinda resembles an ego struggle within him. Meaning that the child is trying to take over gradually. At first we just see its emotions manifest themselves and Griffith performing an involuntary action (saving Casca), but now it is managed to get full control, literally taking over Griffith's body.

I think it's hard to say whether that's the Child "taking over" or just Griffith being a "new" himself and now having the child's feelings as well as a part of his personality inside of him. Could go either way to me for now. But yeah, it's easy to imagine a struggle, especially considering Griffith's goal and his status (as opposed to the child's simple aspirations).

It also casts a different light on Zodd and the whole USO thing. He obviously is aware of Griffit's "condition" which makes me wander which of the two is he actually folowing.

Hmm well, by following I take it you mean serving? Because if so, Zodd was beat by Griffith (as the Falcon of Light) before he child came into play, so I'd say Zodd is loyal to Griffith. But that might always change in the future anyway.

You misunderstood...maybe I used the word afterthought in the wrong context, possibly. I think that Miura wanted to leave a clue...(the one you found.) and thought, "how can I do this?"...I believe he may have possibly decided to use a similar technique used in the panel I found to illustrate the clue.

It's not that I misunderstood, you just expressed yourself incorrectly. Anyway, that's very unlikely as I said, and probably not related at all. I don't know what you're trying to prove here or why you're insisting so much but these panels don't have much in common, especially compared to other "similar" panels in the story. Do I need to post pictures or something? The context in which these are used is totally different, and they're not even that close to each other... One is in three parts and shows a clear far away figure disappearing in the distance, contrasting with the horizon behind which it does, and the other just partly shows a silhouette that's hard to discern. Your premise that Miura wanted to train the reader's eye with one so he'd be able to spot the other simply seems preposterous to me, as I've said, and my previous post has points that you have yet to address.

I don't see where there could be any discrepency because you can physically look right at it and see that all that panel does is re-enforce your theory that Zodd is behind the hill in vol. 28, which I agree with.

It's not a problem with the theory or what that image implies. It's just that it's most probably not related. I know it's hard to speculate without seeing too far into things, but I honestly don't think you've got something here man. So since you've already profusely explained your point, I'd like you to stop talking about it now so that people can concentrate on the thread's topic: the Moonlight Child. Panel structure discussions aren't at their place here, so if you really want to go on about it I'd prefer if you made a separate thread. Thanks in advance.

back to the Moonchild... We can safely assume he is the offspring of Guts/Casca due to his appearance and Casca's reaction to him especially.

These are strong hints yeah. That stays an assumption though. His appearance is also reminiscent of Griffith, what with the hair in the wind, the eerie eyes and the overall strange aura.

His powers, to whatever extent they may be would be due to being the seed of a Godhand. The deformed one chose an evil form, perhaps this one chose a different form and wasn't tainted with evil.

You're confused here I think. The Demon Child wasn't the "seed" of Femto. He was tainted by him and became evil. His powers were that of a "super spectre" sort of. The Moonlight Child on the other hand is a superior being. He's incredibly powerful from what we've seen, it can't even compare. As for choosing another form, how is this supposed to work? The Demon Child became Griffith's body. They're supposedly one and the same (based on what we see during the Incarnation and in volume 22) and we have no reason not to believe it. We really have yet to find a definite explanation for the whole phenomenon. However, I like to assume (like many others I guess) that in terms of appearance the Moonlight Child is basically the Demon Child washed of Femto's taint. What he would have been without it in the first place.

He's obviously come from a higher plane due to his entrance into the plot. Why does Zodd care to be there? Zodd cares alot about Griff these days, if the Moonchild really is their offspring Griffith probably wants something to do with him.

Obviously came from a higher plane? What? Due to his entrance into the plot and the fact Zodd was watching in his apostle form when Casca found him, I'd say his entrance can easily imply that he came over riding him. Otherwise, if we assume he came alone, Zodd could have been curious and wanted to see what was up with him (still assuming he's Griffith). If he's a different entity altogether, which is hard to assume for now, Zodd could have been sent there by Griffith to spy on him, or he could have seen the group by accident while scouting on his own (I elaborated about this earlier like Walter said). Given the way it's all put together though, I favor the "Zodd brought him there" hypothesis over the rest.

On a side note, I'm glad the "Hawk of Darkness" nonsense is gone, as it would have pained me to have to explain it in this thread.

Seeing how Griffith was reincarnated using the child of Guts and Casca, I can't imagine the child walking around as a separate entity from Griffith.  I think that if it is their child, Griffith has to be physically connected to it.

Yes, this is a fatal flaw to the hypothesis that the Moonlight Child is the Demon Child but that Griffith and him are not one and the same. There's always the possibility that he's not related to the Demon Child of course, but that's hard to believe (espescially since the child's age seems to fit).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 17, 2006, 07:22:00 AM
Quote
I think it's hard to say whether that's the Child "taking over" or just Griffith being a "new" himself and now having the child's feelings as well as a part of his personality inside of him. Could go either way to me for now. But yeah, it's easy to imagine a struggle, especially considering Griffith's goal and his status (as opposed to the child's simple aspirations).
Well, taking into account that it is hard to imagine Griffith and the child being physically separate, the nature of the encounter on the beach would IMHO indicate that Griffith's ego was suppressed (no brand reactions, no strange od readings etc.). This assumption gives way to thinking that it was not his choice to be there but that the child's desire for its parents took over guiding it to that place. Another issue to be raised here is how did they (Zodd and Griffith/Child) find the group eg. the "homing" properties of the brand, the child's instinct, or possibly something else.
Quote
Hmm well, by following I take it you mean serving? Because if so, Zodd was beat by Griffith (as the Falcon of Light) before he child came into play, so I'd say Zodd is loyal to Griffith. But that might always change in the future anyway.
Yes, I did mean serve, and that defeat does cast a shadow on my view. It was perhaps a bit far fetched of me to think that Zodd could have foreseen this development that early on ( the fact that I like that character a lot probably tainted my view). Nevertheless, his future reaction will be the one to look forward to IMHO, plenty will hang on how he chooses to interpret what goes on and even where he places his allegiance (or services).
All this maybe a bit too speculative and rambling... be gentle :serpico:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 17, 2006, 08:16:13 AM
Well, taking into account that it is hard to imagine Griffith and the child being physically separate, the nature of the encounter on the beach would IMHO indicate that Griffith's ego was suppressed (no brand reactions, no strange od readings etc.).

Depends, it might also be that Griffith wanted to do it himself, following the desire of the "child" part of his new personality. You see what I mean? And the fact the strange Od coming from him (because Schierke did feel that his Od was unusual) didn't indicate anything precise or that the Brand didn't bleed isn't necessarily related to Griffith's ego, since even if it had been suppressed as long as the Child had his "powers" it should have produced a reaction. It just implies that he hid his power until he had no other choice but to use them. Suppressing Griffith's ego is a different thing altogether IMHO and I don't think it'd automatically produce this result.

Don't be mistaken, I'm not opposed to the idea you're presenting (quite the contrary), but I don't think it can be "proved" at all for now.

Another issue to be raised here is how did they (Zodd and Griffith/Child) find the group eg. the "homing" properties of the brand, the child's instinct, or possibly something else.

That's a good question, and I like your suggestions. The Child's instinct coupled with his ability to locate the Brand(s) should have made it relatively easy for him to find them, not to forget the aerial view from Zodd's back and his knowledge of where they were a month before (Flora's mansion) and the direction they took when they escaped.

Nevertheless, his future reaction will be the one to look forward to IMHO

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what he ultimately does with all of what he knows and whether he has deeper motives than just serving the USO or not.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 17, 2006, 08:42:50 AM
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Don't be mistaken, I'm not opposed to the idea you're presenting (quite the contrary), but I don't think it can be "proved" at all for now.
Well I did assume you took a stance in order to further this debate, which I do appreciate. Of course none of this can be taken as fact, but it does make for a furtile soil for speculation.
Quote
Yeah, it will be interesting to see what he ultimately does with all of what he knows and whether he has deeper motives than just serving the USO or not.
I do believe that there is more to Zodd than just a brutal fighting machine and that, in a way, he does have a higher purpose than that of a bodyguard. Also (and this is borderline fanboy-ism) I don't think him to be all evil, as in - he does a lot of killing, but it does not seem motivated by hate, sadism or such ,well, evil factors. It does sound conflicting, believe me I know, perhaps I'm unable to put into words exactly what I mean, but hopefully the point does get across.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 17, 2006, 09:56:52 AM
I do believe that there is more to Zodd than just a brutal fighting machine and that, in a way, he does have a higher purpose than that of a bodyguard.

Yeah, he's a deeper character than the other main members of the Neo Hawks (at least for now) in spite of his current role (and the lack of depth that accompanies it). As for a higher purpose though, we have yet to see it.

I don't think him to be all evil, as in - he does a lot of killing, but it does not seem motivated by hate, sadism or such ,well, evil factors.

That's a delicate matter. He's not mindlessly cruel, yet he's on the bad guys' side and there is little to no doubt in the story about where he stands. It really depends on what you call "all evil" basically. Anyway it has been discussed to death in other threads in the past, so if you like the topic don't hesitate to search for old posts on the matter.

PS: And just for kicks, the revival of an old debate: we've never seen the Brand bleed in reaction to Zodd's presence... Could it have a hidden significance?! :zodd:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: vlad on June 17, 2006, 08:36:24 PM
Quote
PS: And just for kicks, the revival of an old debate: we've never seen the Brand bleed in reaction to Zodd's presence... Could it have a hidden significance?!
He is definitely different than any other apostle we have seen to date, this perhaps provokes some other sort of reaction from the brand, something akin to the reaction towards SK (though I don't remember Guts ever commenting to this). There is the possibility of Bloodline, but I really don't want to go there. :carcus:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Proj2501 on June 18, 2006, 04:59:45 AM
Maybe the Brand doesn't react to Zodd himself due to the fact that Zodd wasn't present during the actual Eclipse, but was outside battling Skully. Maybe...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 18, 2006, 07:20:59 AM
He is definitely different than any other apostle we have seen to date, this perhaps provokes some other sort of reaction from the brand

Hahah that's going a bit far, until now we just haven't seen it bleed in direct reaction to his presence, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Maybe it'll bleed next time and that will be it, I was really just joking about that. If anything, the fact Guts detected Zodd's presence through the Brand on the beach means it reacts to him in a way or another at least.

something akin to the reaction towards SK

Nah, SK's different. Probably more like Flora. Zodd's still an apostle, no matter what.

Maybe the Brand doesn't react to Zodd himself due to the fact that Zodd wasn't present during the actual Eclipse, but was outside battling Skully.

That's not how it works. Besides Ganishka wasn't present at the Eclipse at all but the Brand still reacted to him so that Guts could easily identify him as an apostle.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Black Hoped Wings on June 21, 2006, 06:48:16 AM
I think there are some pretty obvious avenues here.

One, this kid is a sinister, and is motivated by evil(i'm just going to make this a Griffith=Child, because I think Griffith is evil and will not be redeemed in the story. Or at least, he's evil right now) The first time Guts is chilling with the kiddyboo the little guy jumps all over him, and while this may just be affection, my first thought was  "Watch out for your brand!!!" I thought he was trying to take the magic stamp off it, or touch it like Slan did, even if it didn't bleed(which is already speculated that it does not always need to). If this was correct, the kid is always by Casca's boob stamp of the darkside(her chest). That or he was wanting to get Guts out of the armor or touch it, infect it, take interest in how it works whatev. The only reason why I don't really go for this is that he saves everyone in the party from Guts(or at least I'm assuming that piece of light that disables the BEAST!! is the kid) when he really didn't need to. Unless, of course, they figure into future use.

Second avenue. Kid is good: That'd made a lot of sense, saves people, likes Guts(dad!) and pretty much all the stuff that  lot of other people have already said here. And Zodd is probably there because he's watching over him. He knows, I think, but he can't really stop a being more powerful than him, but would probably be needed to tell Griffith what happened,  or at least watch over him.

Another theory: Someone already said "maybe Zodd is serving the child now" Maybe he is? Maybe the kid will Kill Griffith's personality, and become the real "Superior One" or whatever it is. Never know. He doesn't take on a hawk guise when in the mental/spiritual realm of Guts brain, and that's what makes me think Griffith isn't doing it. Yeah, he could be manipulating his shape, but I'm hoping it's more like they share a similiar power source. Could it be that this is the person who the chose of fate to kill griffith's personality, or separate, and Zodd's like "oh shit" or maybe "oh yes?" YOU DECIDE!!!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 21, 2006, 09:22:16 AM
Hi Black Hoped Wings, it's been a while since your last post.

I think there are some pretty obvious avenues here.

Well, I have a feeling these obvious avenues are a bit too obvious and that it's more subtle than that. Here are a few remarks on what you said.

One, this kid is a sinister, and is motivated by evil(i'm just going to make this a Griffith=Child, because I think Griffith is evil and will not be redeemed in the story. Or at least, he's evil right now)

Even if we go by Child = Griffith, that doesn't mean he has bad intentions. He saved everybody on the beach when he didn't need to. Even in episode 240, a Pishacha could have easily killed Farnese and Casca in the cabin but the boy prevented it. Also, he stood in the middle of Schierke's spell that banishes evil. How could he be evil then? That's quite unlikely to me, not to mention how he had opportunities to do anything he wanted but just sought the affection of Casca and Guts.

The first time Guts is chilling with the kiddyboo the little guy jumps all over him, and while this may just be affection, my first thought was  "Watch out for your brand!!!" I thought he was trying to take the magic stamp off it, or touch it like Slan did, even if it didn't bleed(which is already speculated that it does not always need to).

Well, he didn't do that. Also, what would have been the point? The talisman on the Brand lessens its effects, mainly preventing it from attracting spectres and the like. Slan erased it so Guts would feel more pain, but he was in pain and the Brand bled profusely before she even appeared anyway. Plus the beherit was agitated. What would erasing the talisman on the Brand achieve? Schierke could make another one, and it's just a weak protection that means nothing to a member of the God Hand or even an apostle. As for the Brand not "needing" to bleed, that's just speculation for now and we have no idea how this could be possible, so that's not something to base yourself on to elaborate a theory.

If this was correct, the kid is always by Casca's boob stamp of the darkside(her chest). That or he was wanting to get Guts out of the armor or touch it, infect it, take interest in how it works whatev.

Well, he's a kid and Casca held him to her chest like a mother would, nothing unusual here. He didn't do anything to her Brand. I don't think this is really relevant anyway as if Griffith wanted to do something he could just appear and both Guts and Casca would clutch their Brands while rolling on the floor. No need to infiltrate the group stealthily. As for the armor, I also don't see why Griffith would care. It's a magical armor, alright. He's a superior being (the boy) and he had no trouble taking care of it. When he got on Guts' back he didn't do anything suspicious to the armor (Infect it? How so?), and I don't think he could have learned how it works by climbing on him, nor that he needed to IMO. Finally, about getting Guts out of it... Not only could this stem from a good intention, but nothing allows us to speculate it was the case.

Second avenue. Kid is good [...] And Zodd is probably there because he's watching over him.

Or Zodd could have brought him there himself, like he does when transporting Griffith.

Another theory: Someone already said "maybe Zodd is serving the child now" Maybe he is? Maybe the kid will Kill Griffith's personality, and become the real "Superior One" or whatever it is. Never know.

Or maybe Zodd serves the USO whether he's Griffith or the boy, indistinctly. "Killing" Griffith's ego seems pretty unlikely to me right now, and I doubt Zodd could know it in advance.

He doesn't take on a hawk guise when in the mental/spiritual realm of Guts brain, and that's what makes me think Griffith isn't doing it.

That's not inside Guts' brain, it's just what he sees through the armor. Quite different.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Pesmerga on August 03, 2006, 11:41:33 AM
Hey i continue my tour in the forum in order to do not post something already say and i find this interesting topic, good job Aaz for seeing this, hope many others things will be find.

But if in the future all of this being true we can thanks you for the exclusivity of the info probably a few months or even years in advance  :guts:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Waychel on October 12, 2006, 10:59:49 AM
Dunno if it has been thought of already or if it is even possible in the Berserk universe...

One theory I considered was that maybe the Moonlight Child was some kind of astral projection of Guts and Casca's son. Since Griffith is using the son's embryo as a vessel he could have re-absorbed all of the "evil" tendencies that tainted it, allowing the "pure" part of the child to remain separate, although still a part of Griffith. This could lead to an eventual conflict later on if Casca did regain her heart/sanity because even if she could accept Guts killing Griffith, she may not be able to accept him killing their own son knowing that he is a separate living entity that is good. Which is kind of what Skull Knight warned Guts about on the beach... "What you want may not be what she wants."

EDIT: N/M... seems this was already posted back around page 2. XD
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Omega Tom Hanks on January 25, 2008, 02:10:41 AM
So Im thinking after re-reading this episode that it might be Griffith just playing pyschological warfare. I know its probably wrong and I hope it is. But think if it was his intent, imagine how much a bastard he would be. Besides the eclipse also which just makes it worse.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on January 25, 2008, 02:22:00 AM
I really don't think so.

If you want some reasons, check out his line during the Hill of Swords about wanting to see if his "heart still wavered" when in the presence of Guts. Remember how he felt the child's heart as Casca was in danger, and how he flew down and protected her? Griff may have gotten over his prevous "flaws", but now his body comes with a whole slew of daddy issues attached through Guts and Casca as parents to their demonic child.

If anything, I'd say Griffith has very little control over the child's moods.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Ramen4ever on January 25, 2008, 02:50:43 AM
^
completely agree.

I wonder how Guts will react to learning that Griffith is now technically his child?
Just thinking of how Epic the confrontation between the two will be is giving me goose bumps. 
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on January 25, 2008, 03:39:07 AM
I wonder how Guts will react to learning that Griffith is now technically his child?
Just thinking of how Epic the confrontation between the two will be is giving me goose bumps. 
Well, if you're implying that Griffith and the Moonlight Child alternate between hosting the body, we don't know that for sure yet. It's just a theory supported by a silhouette of Zodd's horn.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on January 25, 2008, 05:49:19 AM
So Im thinking after re-reading this episode that it might be Griffith just playing pyschological warfare. I know its probably wrong and I hope it is.

It sure as hell is wrong and doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Omega Tom Hanks on January 25, 2008, 06:31:06 AM
Im sure it is too, well hope it is. Just I suppose you should never say never, I mean Griffith cant be that much of a asshole...............or can he?  :griff:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on January 25, 2008, 06:37:16 AM
Im sure it is too, well hope it is. Just I suppose you should never say never, I mean Griffith cant be that much of a asshole...............or can he?  :griff:

I think in this case it's safe to say it's not going to happen, due to lack of evidence.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Omega Tom Hanks on January 25, 2008, 06:44:02 AM
Well I agree. Im just speculating if its possible for Griffith to be more of a asshole than he already is............I mean posing as there kid just to make it worse for them? I mean I thought you couldnt get any more evil with the eclipse thing. But IMO I think its the demonic child taking control over the body and using it for his own benefits.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on January 25, 2008, 08:30:59 AM
Well I agree. Im just speculating if its possible for Griffith to be more of a asshole than he already is............I mean posing as there kid just to make it worse for them?

But that wouldn't serve any purpose. They didn't assume it was their son, and they weren't heartbroken when the kid left off. Not to mention that Guts didn't have a very good relationship with his offspring anyway. Furthermore, the boy actually saved their lives. Why would Griffith have bothered at all? And why would he go through all that trouble in the first place when he's trying to ignore Guts as hard as he can? Like I said, it makes no sense.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Scorpio on January 25, 2008, 08:51:16 AM
Its an interesting idea, that Griffith might be using the moonlight child to break Guts' spirit.  But do to the reasons Aaz mentioned, it just doesn't have any plausibility.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Ramen4ever on January 25, 2008, 06:18:10 PM
Well, if you're implying that Griffith and the Moonlight Child alternate between hosting the body, we don't know that for sure yet. It's just a theory supported by a silhouette of Zodd's horn.


I didn't really imply anything, I was just curious as to how Guts will react to finding out that Griffith is his child. It's a really big dent in his revenge scheme, and the Beast makes things even worse.
What I wanna know is how did Griffith use Guts child as a host when the child only appeared at night (he basically only had a Astral form)
Yet Griffith now has a "human" form as a result.
Also, Aazealh's theory on page one, is still the most sound.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on January 25, 2008, 06:30:14 PM
What I wanna know is how did Griffith use Guts child as a host when the child only appeared at night (he basically only had a Astral form)

The child underwent a transformation inside the Egg Apostle, remember? And although he couldn't maintain his form during the day, he had been born with a physical form in the first place.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: JetBlack on April 08, 2008, 10:01:30 AM
Hi, this is an old thread but anyway great find Aaz!

This opens many questions and many things were speculated here even though we don't have enough elements. But IF the moon child is pure and if it is the good part separated from Griffith (that is pure evil no?) can we say he is a superior being as great as Griffith? IF he can use the powers of Griffith (this is complete speculation) it seems like he can be the most powerful good astral being, over the elf king. It is funny to think that in the creation of the superior evil thing (in the separation of good and evil) has been created also a superior good thing.
What do you think about?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on April 08, 2008, 12:04:48 PM
What do you think about?
I think you should leave Hanafubuku King out of the whole argument, personally.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: JetBlack on April 08, 2008, 01:02:24 PM
OK sorry if my reference to Hanafubuku King is too risky. The fact is that in the world of berserk there are so less good powers (and also for that it's cool). The Moonchild Boy could be "pure" and good for what we have seen. And he could be also powerful, so I make a reference with the Hanafubuku King (that for me could be the most powerful good being we know for now). Only for that.
On the other way I am very curious for the role that the boy could have in the future. Maybe he will be able to create some problems to Griffith. This is what I try to say. And I am sorry if my explanation wasn't clear.
Anyway thanks for your answer.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Pistol on April 20, 2008, 04:45:26 AM
Actually... Well what I thought was- you know that disfigured baby that kept appearing around Casca? I though that maybe that child was some sort of form of him.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on April 20, 2008, 08:26:31 AM
Actually... Well what I thought was- you know that disfigured baby that kept appearing around Casca? I though that maybe that child was some sort of form of him.

Yeah but as explained in the thread, it's a little more complicated than that.

Anyway, I don't think there's anyone that wasn't reminded of the Demon Child when they saw the Moonlight Boy. Hell, Guts himself was (I'm not even going to talk about Casca...).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: slayer81 on April 20, 2008, 12:24:32 PM
I wonder how Guts will react to learning that Griffith is now technically his child?
Just thinking of how Epic the confrontation between the two will be is giving me goose bumps. 
If anything, Guts is going to be even more pissed because Griffith has, more or less, ruined his kid.

Im sure it is too, well hope it is. Just I suppose you should never say never, I mean Griffith cant be that much of a asshole...............or can he?  :griff:
Um, yep he can be... Griff's pretty much King Douche at this point. There's no way he can do anything that will make up for what he did. I mean, c'mon. :guts:

That's a delicate matter. He's not mindlessly cruel, yet he's on the bad guys' side and there is little to no doubt in the story about where he stands. It really depends on what you call "all evil" basically. Anyway it has been discussed to death in other threads in the past, so if you like the topic don't hesitate to search for old posts on the matter.
True, even though Zodd is one of the "bad guys", he does display a sense of honor from time to time. There will definitely be more to him as the story unfolds, unlike the other apostles that Guts has confronted (and slaughtered), otherwise, he'd have been long since killed.  :guts:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Ramen4ever on April 20, 2008, 03:32:06 PM
If anything, Guts is going to be even more pissed because Griffith has, more or less, ruined his kid.

"Pissed" doesn't exactly sum up the complexity of the situation. And the question I would be asking, is the child's fate now intertwined with Griffith's? If Griffith dies, the child dies (at least physically) but is their any hope of the child being saved? What will Casca's perspective be on the issue? Fight Griffith, or pursue some unknown, maybe even unachievable way of saving their kid? We all know how attached she is to the child and Casca is almost guaranteed to further complicate the matter.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: slayer81 on April 20, 2008, 04:38:38 PM
"Pissed" doesn't exactly sum up the complexity of the situation.
Oh I get what you're saying. "Pissed off" is really the only thing I could think of to describe his anger, even though we all know by now that it far surpasses even rage. The problem with the Moonlight Child is that we really don't know enough about him to tell what would happen to him if Griff were killed by Guts. I tell my friends who aren't familiar with Berserk that they just have to read the story for themselves because of the complexity of everything involved. This case, for instance, illustrates just that. Really, the only thing that any of us can do is wait until more is revealed about the Moonlight Child before we can even speculate on what might happen. It's all up in the air at this point. :carcus:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on April 20, 2008, 06:49:31 PM
What will Casca's perspective be on the issue? Fight Griffith, or pursue some unknown, maybe even unachievable way of saving their kid? We all know how attached she is to the child and Casca is almost guaranteed to further complicate the matter.

Don't be too quick to draw conclusions here. Casca has been more attached to the child than Guts because of her condition so far, and Guts has been insensitive with him because of the context. It's likely that they'd both feel quite bad knowing what happened to him when Femto was incarnated, and if he was the Moonlight Boy and that killing Griffith would end his life as well, I'm pretty sure both parents would be horribly torn by the situation.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: spineylamb on April 20, 2008, 09:02:49 PM
Guts has been insensitive with him because of the context. It's likely that they'd both feel quite bad knowing what happened to him when Femto was incarnated, and if he was the Moonlight Boy and that killing Griffith would end his life as well, I'm pretty sure both parents would be horribly torn by the situation.
I don't know, as you said yourself, Guts has been "insensitive" towards the deformed little demon/boy. I don't think he would be too torn if he found out Griffith and the boy were linked in some way, but I'm definitely excited to see Casca's feelings towards it (she'll be able to taaaaalk) once she's lucid.

But yeah, he hasn't had any reason to feel it was his "child" and has only really had pretty negative or obscure, uh, associations with it. It seems to disgust him more than it stirs any sort of paternal instinct in him you know? He hasn't seen it in action protecting Casca, and maybe he still remembers what Skullknight said about how as long as it still exists it would bring him grief (or at least -something- is making him want to keep it away from himself).

I'm also under the impression that he assumes the demon fetus is a seperate being from the moonlight child they found on the beach (admittedly he looked preeetty darn confused that night though). So yeah, distanced enough, no real bond, won't be too bothered... but that's from my understanding of what Miura's shown so far, and I could be wrong!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on April 20, 2008, 09:48:16 PM
I don't know, as you said yourself, Guts has been "insensitive" towards the deformed little demon/boy.

Because of the context (the child's deformity, his corrupted-by-evil state, Guts' life at the time, the things he reminded him of, etc.). But it was still his son. And he thought back about the last time he saw him with melancholy when the Moonlight Boy showed up. I guarantee you that he would mind it a great deal if killing Griffith meant killing his child, especially if it turns out the kid isn't a degenerated mess anymore. And I'm also sure he won't take it well when he'll learn what was done to the kid at Albion.

But yeah, he hasn't had any reason to feel it was his "child" and has only really had pretty negative or obscure, uh, associations with it. It seems to disgust him more than it stirs any sort of paternal instinct in him you know? He hasn't seen it in action protecting Casca, and maybe he still remembers what Skullknight said about how as long as it still exists it would bring him grief

I think you need to re-read the end of episode 238, and possibly more of the interactions between the two. The child brought him grief indeed, but that doesn't mean Guts merely hated him or only found him disgusting.

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Guts-child.jpg)

I'm also under the impression that he assumes the demon fetus is a seperate being from the moonlight child they found on the beach

He doesn't assume they're the same being, and it's not like we know they're the same for sure ourselves anyway. We only speculate that they might be. Still, seeing the Moonlight Boy reminded Guts of his son, so if anyone's made the connexion it's him (obviously Casca's instinct may allow her to see things others don't, but there's no way to know for sure).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Pistol on April 21, 2008, 09:12:51 PM
King douche... Well all roads lead to Rome I suppose but Elf King or evil fetus, "moonlight boy" may change shape in scenes to come so that may draw a bit more light on the subject.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on April 21, 2008, 09:16:56 PM
Elf King or evil fetus, "moonlight boy" may change shape in scenes to come so that may draw a bit more light on the subject.

I don't think the Moonlight Boy could be the Elf King though. It wouldn't make any sense.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Shadax on August 07, 2008, 10:05:54 PM
Was wondering about this boy myself. It could just be the form of Guts and Casca's child of how it would have been if it hadn't been tainted by Femto. With the rebirth of Griff, it seems dimensions and realities are overlapping and mixing more. Technically, Guts and Casca's child "died" when Femto tainted the foetus. With Griffit's rebirth, the mixing of the dimensions etc, the form of the cild that never was, appeared. maybe it got split and reborn in the egg apostle too, maybe it was able to form at the full moon on the beach since at full moon is when the power of magic is strongest, etc. This could be an explaination. I don't think it is Griffith tho. The boy was in the harbor amonst the captured children who were about to be sent off as slaves and I think he went with Sonia to Griffiths camp along with the other children.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on August 08, 2008, 01:33:09 AM
The boy was in the harbor amonst the captured children who were about to be sent off as slaves and I think he went with Sonia to Griffiths camp along with the other children.
What?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Griffith on August 08, 2008, 02:07:50 AM
I even did due diligence and rechecked the whole scene looking for him just now, and no, the child was indeed not there.

Anyway, refreshing my thoughts on this subject, I still think he's some incarnation of Guts' and Casca's child manifested and projected via Griffith's power. Aside from that, the real question is whether it's a passive occurrence or not on either the child's or Griffith's part.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on August 08, 2008, 08:00:12 AM
Technically, Guts and Casca's child "died" when Femto tainted the foetus.

No, I think it's clear that isn't the case. Technically, it was corrupted by Femto, as explained in the manga.

The boy was in the harbor amonst the captured children who were about to be sent off as slaves and I think he went with Sonia to Griffiths camp along with the other children.

I imagine you mistook a random Kushan kid for the boy?

Anyway, refreshing my thoughts on this subject, I still think he's some incarnation of Guts' and Casca's child manifested and projected via Griffith's power. Aside from that, the real question is whether it's a passive occurrence or not on either the child's or Griffith's part.

Well that remains the most logical explanation to me as well even after all that time. Where else could the boy's "superior" powers come from? And we know a part of him still exists within Griffith too, strong enough to make him act without thinking.

As for whether it occurs passively or not... I believe that it is an occurrence related to the full moon. Simply said, when the moon is full and magic strengthens, the boy can muster enough power to manifest himself into the world. The question this raises though is how it is done. Does he appear out of thin air? Does he use Griffith's body? The second possibility seems a little unlikely as it would have to include a way to neutralize the "evil" power Griffith inherently possesses and that Schierke or Guts and Casca's Brands would have picked up (although if he could actually transform his body, I guess anything else would be possible).

A plausible way events happened that night: the moon is full, Griffith is asleep or in a transe. Zodd stands guard not too far away. The child appears one way or another, and starts travelling towards his parents that he can feel are nearby. Zodd picks up on this, and decides to follow the boy. Having seen who he's meeting, he turns off and goes back to the camp, keeping the information to himself.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Oburi on August 08, 2008, 04:17:35 PM
I imagine you mistook a random Kushan kid for the boy?

Lol oh thats funny.  I think the real question is what role will this character will play in the future. What is Miura saving him for.  I actually forgot about the whole thing until it was brought up which I guess is something Miura might have intended since we haven't seen much of him since ( if at all right?). 
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on August 08, 2008, 04:21:33 PM
I actually forgot about the whole thing until it was brought up which I guess is something Miura might have intended since we haven't seen much of him since ( if at all right?). 
It hasn't been that long ago, really. Just over 5 volumes ago (four years, scoff scoff). But I seem to remember Guts thinking of him recently. I don't have the volumes handy though.

Anyway, I don't think the child's immediate role in the plot needs to be spelled out this early on. He will clearly be a major X factor in the remainder of the series, seeing as how his very existence compromises Griffith's control on his newfound powers. That's enough of a hint at what's to come for me.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Shadax on August 08, 2008, 09:46:57 PM
Looked like the boy, just different complexion. Even the shirt was the same and the way Schierke says "That's!" And it immediatly focusses on him and he is prominently shown in pretty much every scene. Forgive me for thinking something about it. Had been a while since I read it.

No, I think it's clear that isn't the case. Technically, it was corrupted by Femto, as explained in the manga.

Which technically can be seen as: the child that would normally have been, would never exist because of the corruption by Femto => Technically, the child that Casca and Guts would have had stopped existing. Yay semantics.

I personally really don't think it is Griffith anyway..that would be way to cheesy.. I'm really curious what his role is tho.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Jaze1618 on August 08, 2008, 11:27:49 PM
Looked like the boy, just different complexion. Even the shirt was the same and the way Schierke says "That's!" And it immediatly focusses on him and he is prominently shown in pretty much every scene. Forgive me for thinking something about it. Had been a while since I read it.

Which technically can be seen as: the child that would normally have been, would never exist because of the corruption by Femto => Technically, the child that Casca and Guts would have had stopped existing. Yay semantics.

I personally really don't think it is Griffith anyway..that would be way to cheesy.. I'm really curious what his role is tho.

To finish off this exciting episode of Quantum Leap and leave the readers with anticipation for the Moderators reply: "Oh Boy.."
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Shadax on August 09, 2008, 09:15:03 AM
To finish off this exciting episode of Quantum Leap and leave the readers with anticipation for the Moderatros reply: "Oh Boy.."

Yes, cause "Oh boy.." my post is so offensive and strange.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on August 09, 2008, 09:37:13 AM
Looked like the boy, just different complexion. Even the shirt was the same and the way Schierke says "That's!" And it immediatly focusses on him and he is prominently shown in pretty much every scene. Forgive me for thinking something about it. Had been a while since I read it.

It's Ok, though honestly I have trouble seeing what kid you're talking about (I don't see a specific focus on any of them). I imagine it's one of the girls with a dress. Not only is their complexion different but their face is as well (quite clearly so IMO), their hair is shorter and they are visibly taller and older. And the dress itself is different from the oversized shirt the moonlight boy was last seen wearing, though there's a resemblance.

Which technically can be seen as: the child that would normally have been, would never exist because of the corruption by Femto => Technically, the child that Casca and Guts would have had stopped existing. Yay semantics.

Sorry but your use of the word "technically" here sort of negates the rest of what you say. So no, I wouldn't say that it can "technically" be seen as that.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Shadax on August 09, 2008, 10:48:50 AM
though there's a resemblance.

Which was my point on why I thought that

Quote
Sorry but your use of the word "technically" here sort of negates the rest of what you say. So no, I wouldn't say that it can "technically" be seen as that.

My, aren't we snooty :s
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on August 09, 2008, 01:24:25 PM
Which was my point on why I thought that

A resemblance between the shirt and the dress, not between the characters (and it's nothing that can't be differentiated if one looks closely). It doesn't eclipse all the other discrepancies. Anyway it doesn't really matter. You were mistaken, no big deal.

My, aren't we snooty :s

Exactness matters.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Truder on April 26, 2010, 04:00:57 AM
Hi everybody, I'm new!
I've been lurking about, reading many threads, (my favorite would have to be this years April fools joke that Aazealh pulled, although I too was tricked :sad:)

This topic in particular intrigued me. I too have pondered about the moonlight boys "motives".
I do hope we get to see him by the next full moon. :guts: 
(http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af243/Truder7/Berserk_moon.jpg?t=1272257072)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Doc on May 01, 2010, 05:07:44 PM
The best theory I've read online is that the Moonlight Boy personifies Griffith's inherent feelings for Guts & Casca. Perhaps he separated this part of his ego to avoid any moments of weakness in the future.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on May 01, 2010, 05:54:27 PM
The best theory I've read online is that the Moonlight Boy personifies Griffith's inherent feelings for Guts & Casca. Perhaps he separated this part of his ego to avoid any moments of weakness in the future.

That's a misconception of the reason Griffith felt anything for Guts & Casca on the Hill of Swords. It's because when he took over their son's body a part (or the totality, who knows) of the kid somehow remained. Those feelings are definitely not inherent to Griffith/Femto but are rather parasitic, and if they were separated from him then they're not a personification of his feelings, but a manifestation of the boy.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Doc on May 02, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
Oh, I know that. I'm saying those feelings are inherent because Griffith was reborn through Guts & Casca's child, which is why he needs some way to satiate that part of his being to prevent it becoming a problem in the future.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on May 02, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
I'm saying those feelings are inherent because Griffith was reborn through Guts & Casca's child, which is why he needs some way to satiate that part of his being to prevent it becoming a problem in the future.

Griffith wasn't reborn, it's Femto who was incarnated. And the boy and him are originally (and may still be) two different beings, which is why it isn't inherent. Semantics, I know, but it matters with that kind of topic.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aphasia on May 03, 2010, 09:08:44 PM
Are you saying that the Griffith that exists in the world now can't be called Griffith? I thought Griffith was "reborn" through Guts/Casca's child and incarnated as Femto at the eclipse.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on May 03, 2010, 09:14:44 PM
Are you saying that the Griffith that exists in the world now can't be called Griffith?

No, that's not what I said. I call him Griffith myself in case you haven't noticed. But he's not the same Griffith than the one from the Golden Age arc.

I thought Griffith was "reborn" through Guts/Casca's child and incarnated as Femto at the eclipse.

Femto was born during the Occultation ceremony (born from the man who was known as Griffith). Femto was then incarnated during the events that occurred at Albion. Femto, like the other members of the God Hand, is a purely spiritual being, without a corporeal form. To be incarnated means that he received a body of flesh (you know, like Jesus Christ).

The body Femto was incarnated in looks exactly like the man called Griffith did. However, this doesn't mean that the person known as Griffith up to the Eclipse is suddenly back like nothing happened. Griffith became Femto in volume 13. He was irremediably changed. The one we now refer to as Griffith is merely Femto wearing a Griffith flesh-suit. It's important that people understand this.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aphasia on May 04, 2010, 02:41:44 AM
Ah I see, thank you very much for the clarification. : ) Was a little confused about the specifics.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Death May Die on May 04, 2010, 02:49:25 AM
No, that's not what I said. I call him Griffith myself in case you haven't noticed. But he's not the same Griffith than the one from the Golden Age arc.

Femto was born during the Occultation ceremony (born from the man who was known as Griffith). Femto was then incarnated during the events that occurred at Albion. Femto, like the other members of the God Hand, is a purely spiritual being, without a corporeal form. To be incarnated means that he received a body of flesh (you know, like Jesus Christ).

The body Femto was incarnated in looks exactly like the man called Griffith did. However, this doesn't mean that the person known as Griffith up to the Eclipse is suddenly back like nothing happened. Griffith became Femto in volume 13. He was irremediably changed. The one we now refer to as Griffith is merely Femto wearing a Griffith flesh-suit. It's important that people understand this.

Yes, thank you for writing a clear run down of that!  :serpico:

Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Oburi on May 04, 2010, 12:42:41 PM


The body Femto was incarnated in looks exactly like the man called Griffith did. However, this doesn't mean that the person known as Griffith up to the Eclipse is suddenly back like nothing happened. Griffith became Femto in volume 13. He was irremediably changed. The one we now refer to as Griffith is merely Femto wearing a Griffith flesh-suit. It's important that people understand this.

So then the Griffith from the Golden Age is truly dead....

Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Rhombaad on May 04, 2010, 01:53:04 PM
So then the Griffith from the Golden Age is truly dead....

Yep, but it's not like he was the greatest guy, either.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on May 04, 2010, 02:18:40 PM
So then the Griffith from the Golden Age is truly dead....
Welcome to 1996.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aphasia on May 04, 2010, 10:52:04 PM
One stark difference between the two is laughter..Griffith (or should I say Femto) only smiles now, and rarely.  I remember when he used to laugh, and when I thought he was a decent guy.  I guess that might have something to do with his soul being flooded with evil and all. :femto:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on May 05, 2010, 07:15:19 AM
Well that's good and all but I'd like to remind you that this thread is about the Moonlight Boy, guys. So let's please drop the Femto/Griffith talk, especially since it's been discussed in countless other threads already.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Mudo on May 05, 2010, 11:09:53 PM
It's just speculation, but maybe the God Hand was summoned and the kid controlled the body during this time.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on May 06, 2010, 08:01:32 AM
It's just speculation, but maybe the God Hand was summoned and the kid controlled the body during this time.

There's one thing going against that possibility though: in the Dreamcast game, the God Hand is summoned and we only see four of them appearing (Femto's missing). Of course the game isn't fully canon, but it does reflect Miura's intent in many ways.

Additionally, I don't think it would have taken that long for the God Hand to appoint a new apostle. From the way the scene is depicted, it's implied that the boy stayed with the group for several hours.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Oburi on June 03, 2010, 04:04:52 PM
Its been discussed before I'm sure, but just rehash a bit, is there any correlation between these pics? I was speaking with another fan not too long ago and they mention these pics and it was something I didn't pick up on. The way the moonlight boy is shown to be all light is similar to the way Griffith appears to Ganishka. Even the way the light is described. Is this just another obvious piece of evidence connecting Griffith to the moonlight boy?

(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5742/berserkv32c282p14.jpg)

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5376/berserkv28131.jpg)

Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 03, 2010, 04:15:47 PM
Very likely, yes. I remember seeing that scene with Ganishka and making the connection without even thinking about it, really. For me personally, it's been a given that there's a connection between the child and Griffith since that shot of Zodd was revealed. Though, admittedly, the concept has never been directly addressed in Berserk yet, so there could be many other mitigating factors.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Oburi on June 03, 2010, 04:30:49 PM
Yea even though it hasn't been addressed in the manga yet, I thought it would be useful to post the two shots side by side just to give a little more insight to anyone since I don't remember them being addressed personally. I know we've seen a lot of the "light" recently in the manga but up to this point it's only been shown a few times, so it kinda helps to sort out when it's shown because it could very well supply some connections that are interesting.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 03, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
Very likely, yes.

I wouldn't say it's "very likely". "Bodies of light" and astral vision are not especially unique.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 03, 2010, 05:02:17 PM
I wouldn't say it's "very likely".
Well, OK... but it's certainly not a stretch of the imagination to make that connection. If they share the same body, and the same power, it would make sense that they appear the same, when viewed through astral vision.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 03, 2010, 06:23:09 PM
Well, OK... but it's certainly not a stretch of the imagination to make that connection. If they share the same body, and the same power, it would make sense that they appear the same, when viewed through astral vision.

Yeah, but they don't have to share anything for their astral bodies to look like they're made of light, that's my point. The same goes for Schierke, Farnese or even Guts when he was hit by the astral wave in episode 305. The only actual similarity is that they both lack detail, but that also falls apart if you look at them closer.

When Ganishka looks at Griffith, he sees his armor, his cloak, everything. But it's just an outline, made to convey that he can perceive him astrally (and we see Ganishka's astral form as well). When Guts looks at the boy, he doesn't see his silhouette but something a lot more abstract, closer to a pure spirit. No clothes, no legs, the hair looks like a flame... It's very specific and definitely done that way for a reason. Not to mention that the boy moves close to him and even touches him in astral form, while physically still in Casca's arms.

So while Griffith and the boy may share something, I don't believe these two scenes prove anything at all.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Panicfactorx on June 04, 2010, 07:13:19 AM
Wow! This thread just consumed two hours! But I wanted to be sure to read the entire thing before continuing....


I'm pulling loosely hear, but: the boy in his astral form reminds me of a spirit (ie: the sylphs, salamanders, etc...) and I wonder (since the moon was out) if the child's nature is like that of the moon. I believe Schierke said her attribute was water, or maybe I misunderstood.

I'm interested in Zodd's presence. Clearly Zodd is important... I wonder if Griffith allowed him to witness this intimate encounter, or if Zodd stumbled upon this accidentally (I say accidentally very loosely...).

As to the child stopping Guts: If it is indeed Griffith and Griffith is in some sort of control, maybe he stopped Guts from killing everyone because he knew they had a greater purpose to serve. He is a member of the God Hand and they are the servants of the IoE... I don't know... just thoughts... I like this thread though.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 04, 2010, 08:03:15 AM
I wonder (since the moon was out) if the child's nature is like that of the moon.

What's that supposed to mean? What is the moon's nature?

I believe Schierke said her attribute was water, or maybe I misunderstood.

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but yeah you misunderstood.

As to the child stopping Guts: If it is indeed Griffith and Griffith is in some sort of control, maybe he stopped Guts from killing everyone because he knew they had a greater purpose to serve.

That isn't at all consistent with Griffith's behavior or with how the scene is presented, and it seems extremely far-fetched to me to assume that Griffith was "in control" of anything when the boy stopped Guts. The same goes for the group's hypothetic greater purpose, since at this point they're not very likely to serve the God Hand's interests in the future.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Oburi on June 04, 2010, 02:19:48 PM

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, but yeah you misunderstood.

I'm sure he meant what Schierke said in that volume when she says something Flora use to tell her, about the ocean, how its connected to the astral world. Still does not mean anything according to this scene with the boy, but that must be what he read. :serpico:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Panicfactorx on June 24, 2010, 06:20:25 PM
I misunderstood the scene where Schierke summons the water spirit in Enoch village.
"I am kindred of the water, the spirit of the river that runs through this land". She also later tells the water to assemble under her and she uses the word 'kindred'. I wasn't realizing that she was still performing her magic and speaking for the spirit.

As for the moon: I'm wondering if the child is a spirit of the moon. Salamanders represent fire, undines water, sylphs wind... maybe the boy is the spiritual representation of the moon. Maybe Zodd was there because there was a powerful being present and he wanted or was told to check it out. 
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on June 24, 2010, 06:39:59 PM
Yet he appeared in the physical world as a human, not as a spirit like all the other elemental entities the group has encountered.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on June 24, 2010, 07:06:39 PM
As for the moon: I'm wondering if the child is a spirit of the moon. Salamanders represent fire, undines water, sylphs wind... maybe the boy is the spiritual representation of the moon.

Even aside from what Walter pointed out, from what we've been told there are only four elements: earth, fire, wind, water.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: BiQ-- on August 29, 2010, 01:17:55 AM
My thoughts about it are these: First Guts and Casca's son was tainted by Femto, afterwards Femto takes over his physical body. I believe that when this happened, Moonlight Boy lost his physical body but his astral body and ego (or significant part of it) were left to him. Also, when Femto took over his body, he took the evil with him, leaving Moonlight Boy to exist as a "cleansed" astral being. What happened on the beach was simply the fact that depths of sea (connecting to the astral world) and full moon (which seems to strengthen all kinds of astral things in Berserk world) allowed him to manifest to meet his parents... and that's it. I don't see why there needs to be any more elaborate reason for his appearance at the beach but child's yearning for his parents and circumstances that allowed it to happen.

Griffith's reactions to Casca and Guts are "just" lingering effects, and I don't see Griffith being in any kind of "remote control" of Moonlight Boy or vice versa, let alone them being any kind of "two 'bodies' & one mind" phenomenon. The simple fact that Guts' and Casca's brands were in peace during the family kodak moment should put that theory to rest imho.

What really intrigues me is, if these theories are in any way close to being true, since Moonlight Boy is an astral being, does the merging of worlds mean that he could now be permanently on the same world as his parents? (and everyone else for that matter)


EDIT: /me goes to the corner.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Dar Klink on August 29, 2010, 01:28:27 AM
You also have to factor in Zodd being on the Grassy Knoll that day (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=11140.msg177645#msg177645). Which seems to mean that Griffith was involved in some way at the time. :zodd:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on August 29, 2010, 03:52:36 PM
What happened on the beach was simply the fact that depths of sea (connecting to the astral world) and full moon (which seems to strengthen all kinds of astral things in Berserk world) allowed him to manifest to meet his parents... and that's it.

One has to wonder why the last shot of him we see is atop a cliff then (with the moon as a backdrop). Not the direction of the sea.

I don't see why there needs to be any more elaborate reason for his appearance at the beach but child's yearning for his parents and circumstances that allowed it to happen.

I don't think anyone's really questioning the boy's reason for showing up. Nor his identity (even though there's no hard proof), for that matter.

Griffith's reactions to Casca and Guts are "just" lingering effects

That's very debatable if you look at the scene in volume 22. There's no way to assess the exact relation between Griffith and the boy. So even if you put aside the fact Zodd was on the cliff (could have just been reconnoitering, looking for signs of the Kushans), there remains the question of how can the kid still exists within Griffith (his presence strong enough to compel him to action and to make Casca view him as her child despite his physical appearance) while showing up in another body, with supernatural powers but cleansed of any evil. And before you say they could have been separated between volumes 22 and 28, sure, but how?

What really intrigues me is, if these theories are in any way close to being true, since Moonlight Boy is an astral being, does the merging of worlds mean that he could now be permanently on the same world as his parents? (and everyone else for that matter)

Yeah, it's a possibility. Though you'll remember that the Demon Child was in the Interstice himself, like his parents. What limited him was sunlight, since he had been tainted by evil.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: jaken on November 12, 2010, 09:45:08 PM
Nice find Aazealh. The figure at the top of the hills, the recurrent referrence to the moon, the way the moonlight boy looks like Casca and Guts, it all seems really significant. I find the multiple reference to the full moon even more convincing than the shadow over the ill.
The relation between the boy and Griffith is really puzzling though. There is no way Griffith could be there when Casca hugs the boy. On the field of swords, with Griffith harbouring no ill intent against Casca and Guts, his mere presence was enough to make Casca collapse in pain.

about this remark :

So then the Griffith from the Golden Age is truly dead....

I'm not so sure when I think about the Count, Rosine, Ganishka, ... They all recovered their old self near the end, which seems to indicate that it survived in some way. I guess this has already been discussed in a more appropriate thread...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 12, 2010, 10:16:46 PM
I'm not so sure when I think about the Count, Rosine, Ganishka, ... They all recovered their old self near the end, which seems to indicate that it survived in some way. I guess this has already been discussed in a more appropriate thread...

It has been discussed at length, and it's not the topic of this thread, but let me clarify that none of the apostles you mentioned "recovered" anything when they died. The Count still loved his daughter in spite of his state; his refusal to sacrifice her wasn't the result of a last-minute change in him. As for Rochine, in the same way, she had a certain affection for Jill right from the beginning. Their deaths were depicted that way to underline the dramatic conditions that led them to become apostles, and to show that they weren't "just" evil monsters. Same thing for Ganishka's remembrance of his past.

And then again, the process of becoming an apostle isn't like that of becoming a member of the God Hand. As can be seen during the Occultation ceremony, the changes undergone are quite profound. It's already been established in the manga that the person Griffith cared most about at the time of his sacrifice, Guts, means nothing to Femto. That's why having the child's feelings for his parents interfere with his actions is such a big deal. In conclusion, let me repeat what Oburi was reacting to:

The body Femto was incarnated in looks exactly like the man called Griffith did. However, this doesn't mean that the person known as Griffith up to the Eclipse is suddenly back like nothing happened. Griffith became Femto in volume 13. He was irremediably changed. The one we now refer to as Griffith is merely Femto wearing a Griffith flesh-suit. It's important that people understand this.

Now I'd appreciate if we could stick to discussing the Moonlight Boy.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: spineylamb on May 18, 2011, 12:19:05 AM
Some time has passed and we've seen the Moonlight boy's appearance more than once now. :ubik:

Do you think Guts suspects anything? It seems like he's got other things on his mind to deal with first, but you could tell the Moonlight Child had more of his attention in 317. I wonder if in the back of his mind, he's tried connecting some dots.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on May 18, 2011, 01:35:10 AM
Do you think Guts suspects anything? It seems like he's got other things on his mind to deal with first, but you could tell the Moonlight Child had more of his attention in 317. I wonder if in the back of his mind, he's tried connecting some dots.
We don't get as many glimpses into Guts' internal thoughts as we once did, when he was flying solo. But in volume 28, he was reminded of the demon child just after the group encounters the Moonlight Boy. So, that's a pretty big first step.

At this point, it's been established that he's starting to wonder about just who the kid is, since he's exhibited such power. Maybe he'll ask Schierke about him someday soon.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Gobolatula on May 18, 2011, 02:09:12 AM
It really seems like he's at least halfway there.

1) He knows the boy was the one who interfered with his berserker rampaging.
2) Like Walter said, back in volume 28 while watching Casca sleep with the boy, he thought of the demon fetus, wondering what he was up to.

He's gotta somehow realize that the fetus' appearance has changed. If only the boy would just say "PAPA!"

I hope the boy drops a hint for Guts before he leaves again. He will leave again. Probably, anyway...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Jaze1618 on May 18, 2011, 04:34:28 AM
What if the boy fails to clear out before morning? Will the power of the moon fade? We shall see.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on May 18, 2011, 05:10:54 AM
What if the boy fails to clear out before morning? Will the power of the moon fade? We shall see.
"The power of the moon" will fade with morning, yes. What that means for the boy is uncertain, just like everything else about him is uncertain...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: spineylamb on May 18, 2011, 11:04:43 PM
He hasn't said a single word in person (even though he's spoken in his light form), and it seems he understands at least basic ideas (getting someone's attention, the need to protect, when there's danger, he's even done some warning in the past).

If only he would (or could? maybe the spirit form is more of a telepathy and not a verbal language that needs to be learned) speak, I can just imagine the questions  :serpico:

Also, I wonder if he'll ever get (or reveal?) a name.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Gobolatula on May 19, 2011, 12:28:58 AM
Also, I wonder if he'll ever get (or reveal?) a name.
Guts and Casca haven't named him yet.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Ramen4ever on May 19, 2011, 04:21:46 AM
He hasn't said a single word in person (even though he's spoken in his light form), and it seems he understands at least basic ideas (getting someone's attention, the need to protect, when there's danger, he's even done some warning in the past).

If only he would (or could? maybe the spirit form is more of a telepathy and not a verbal language that needs to be learned) speak, I can just imagine the questions  :serpico:


It's actually kind of interesting that Guts didn't associate the Moonlight boy's communication in his astral form, with the Demon child when he communicated with Guts in the past, ie warning Guts of the impending danger for Casca.
There are plenty of explanations that could account for it. But without a connection, the reasons don't really matter.

Imo it's actually better that the Moonlight boy not speak outside of his astral form to Guts. Questions only lead to potential situations. and I'm going to step on a speculative limb here but it may be in the best interests of the child and his parents that he not talk or reveal anything. The information is volatile for Guts, Casca is unlikely to even understand or react, and the rest of the group would only ask questions for information. If this is the only way for the child to be with his parents at the moment, then there's no need for the child to disrupt the current situation. Being with his parents, every full moon(at least while they're by the ocean) allows for him to not only protect his parents, like the child's done in the past. But to maybe bridge the gap that's formed between Guts and Casca, personally I think it's interesting that Miura subtly did that back at the beach house when he first appeared. And I'm hoping that it comes back later, especially after Casca regains herself. (And no, I'm not saying the child is deliberately trying to bridge the gap, but his very presence could be a factor regardless.)
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 12, 2014, 12:35:49 AM
Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child? Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells. But i question the range of this ability, unless he was there with Zodd in the first encounter(which would be reasonable since he was there at Vritanis), then for the second encounter i can buy Griffith needn't be nearby as the Ganishka Tree allows him to project all over the planet. The boy then must return to Griffith, it would be interesting aswell when Guts meets up with Griffith and finds out his sons soul lies within his archenemy, and his blade that damages the very soul, would have to kill his son if he wishes to kill Griffith. The hole in this theory though, is why Guts(nor Skull Knight) didn't quickly sense the tremendous essence of a God Hand member in the vicinity?

And to the "I think the boy takes over Griffith during full moons", when Griffith retrieves Princess Charlotte, her maid and the bed, there's a page with a Massive and clear full moon in the background, so that should clear that out of the picture

Another theory could be that Griffith didn't like the feeling he had in him after meeting Guts at Godo's place, so he removed the childs soul/ethereal body and maybe Zodd was there only to drop him off, from there the child is like it was before, only shows up during a full moon, if he's simply an ethereal body it still makes sense as schierke said "It's the night when does associated with the astral world run rampant", but this feels fairly weak in comparison to the drama that will ensue should the child reside in Griffith

Guts child has always had some telapathic abilities e.g when he feeds images to guts and tells him "danger, when the sky falls at the holy ground, blind sheep gather and erect a pillar of fire, hurry, quickly" so the moonlight child could be talking to him in a similar way, just projecting his intentions and that's how Guts' mind interpets/translates, he might not even know how to actually speak, although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

The kid will be a major(MAJOR) player in the story


 
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on November 12, 2014, 02:16:58 AM
Hello and welcome to the forum! I always enjoy revisiting these old topics, but most of these threads have already been pulled.

Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child?

Not if a result of the merging meant they shared the same power. When the child was in control, the ability he used to tame the Beast of Darkness was pretty fantastic (also worthy of note, the episode title during that feat was "Superior Being.")

Quote
Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells.

Casca was able to touch and hold the child. That's fundamentally different from astral projection and what Griffith does with souls.

Quote
But i question the range of this ability, unless he was there with Zodd in the first encounter(which would be reasonable since he was there at Vritanis), then for the second encounter i can buy Griffith needn't be nearby as the Ganishka Tree allows him to project all over the planet.

I don't think you've thought this all the way through.

Quote
when Guts meets up with Griffith and finds out his sons soul lies within his archenemy, and his blade that damages the very soul,

That's an over embellishment of the damage the Dragon Slayer does. It inflicts wounds on an astral body.

Quote
The hole in this theory though, is why Guts(nor Skull Knight) didn't quickly sense the tremendous essence of a God Hand member in the vicinity?

It's a good question, but it could just be that when the child is in control of the body, which originally belonged to him, that there is no trace of Griffith in those moments.

Quote
And to the "I think the boy takes over Griffith during full moons", when Griffith retrieves Princess Charlotte, her maid and the bed, there's a page with a Massive and clear full moon in the background, so that should clear that out of the picture

Nah, look more closely at the moon. :void:

Quote
Another theory could be that Griffith didn't like the feeling he had in him after meeting Guts at Godo's place, so he removed the childs soul/ethereal body and maybe Zodd was there only to drop him off, from there the child is like it was before, only shows up during a full moon, if he's simply an ethereal body it still makes sense as schierke said "It's the night when does associated with the astral world run rampant", but this feels fairly weak in comparison to the drama that will ensue should the child reside in Griffith

Not just weak, but rather nonsensical. It's the child's body that Griffith possessed, not the other way around.

Quote
although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

It wasn't as much of a prophecy as that the child intercepted the mass dream from the Falcon of Light and gave Guts specific instructions after it.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 12, 2014, 10:31:23 AM
Hello and welcome to the forum! I always enjoy revisiting these old topics, but most of these threads have already been pulled.
Thank you and good to be here :)

Not if a result of the merging meant they shared the same power. When the child was in control, the ability he used to tame the Beast of Darkness was pretty fantastic (also worthy of note, the episode title during that feat was "Superior Being.")
The episode is Titled "Superhuman(Jnanin)" in the Dark Horse installment, and basically from what i've gathered Jnanin is a vast knowledge of the supernatural, it's a little more indepth so i'll just post the link and you can read for yourself and see that it fits pretty well in with berserk universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jnana

This adds some consideration to Schierke's theory that the boy is some emmisary or king Hanafubuku himself, im sure it could be made sense of but it doesn't explain Zodd or the uncanny resemblance to Casca, which is why we are all more or less convinced it must be Guts child

But the boy's power is very similar to very powerful magi, as Schierke once said, powerful enough magi can even fly and that boy to have gotten up to those "branches", that could have taken the magi ability of flight or the flight ability is those branches as we see him in a sense, "fly" along the branches i.e the "secret paths" that powerful beings like king hanafubuku are capable of using(further giving some credence to Schierke's theory)

Although with me, along with the majority think it's more likely it is Guts child but also to go along with my own theory(s), I think he gained his knowledge either from being intuned with the Idea Of Evil/a deep layer of the astral world or as he lay alongside Griffith/Femto's spirit

And if he is seperated from Griffith, maybe now he is simply gifted with tremendous knowledge of the trinity - Physical/Astral/Origin which allows him to do most of the things that usually only the most powerful magi should be able to do but is also pure of Griffiths stain(this could also still make perfect sense even if he's still a part of Griffith but becomes pure when Griffith "projects" him as all parts of Griffiths evil spirit now remain or have all returned to the source)

Casca was able to touch and hold the child. That's fundamentally different from astral projection and what Griffith does with souls.
I dont know how you can say this with certainty, there is seemingly alot of touching going on
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And like it has been said many times, the Astral world is the world of the dead. Isidro asks (quoting Dark Horse)"Little complicated but it's ghosts right? schierke responds "Those are the ethereal bodies that your ethereal body percieves"
(I usually read the Dark Horse version but, but in this case the translations have little difference so shouldn't hurt)
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Basically proving you can touch these human ethereal(ghost) bodies if it is sensed strongly enough

I don't think you've thought this all the way through.
Why? The boys spirit(perhaps what i've been meaning to say this entire time) lies within Griffith, and as with the ghosts he's not in some other room when he's projecting. there has been no indication that he can give form to the souls in the otherside of the planet. But, i can see Miura rationalize it all with the Ganishka tree, esspecially since it caused the world to sink into a deeper realm of the astral world, maybe now the childs spirit can roam more freely, Griffith need'nt project him so much as simply let him "out". And Griffith did show up for the battle at Vritanis did he not? Unless you mean why he wasn't sensed, which is something i've admitted is the hole in the theory

That's an over embellishment of the damage the Dragon Slayer does. It inflicts wounds on an astral body.
Dont think i've ever read "astral body", i've read "ethereal body" that roam the "astral world"
and as i've shown above, ethereal = spirit(perhaps soul was the wrong word, but astral world is just another way of saying spirit world) and thus astral = ethereal in your case

It's a good question, but it could just be that when the child is in control of the body, which originally belonged to him, that there is no trace of Griffith in those moments.
As mentioned above, I believe the boy is absolved of Griffiths stains when he is projected(or was released) as the evil returned to the source and is there to stay

Nah, look more closely at the moon. :void:
What's wrong with the moon?
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Not just weak, but rather nonsensical. It's the child's body that Griffith possessed, not the other way around.
I dont believe it's beyond the realm of possibility that a being like Griffith can't remove the Spirit of a vessel that yes, once belonged to someone else but his spirit is clearly the dominant force here thus his appearence and thus the body basically belongs to him now. We dont need to act like we have the facts here and understand the extent of the abilities of a member of the God Hand

Also Flora did mention that some dead spirits wander the interstice but they eventually accept their deaths and move on or become unable to maintain their ethereal bodies and thus pass away into a deeper layer

The boys spirit is much more powerful than those of the average wondering human souls and that's a given, so i dont see the absurdity

It wasn't as much of a prophecy as that the child intercepted the mass dream from the Falcon of Light and gave Guts specific instructions after it.
The mass dreams had nothing to do with Casca or her being tied to a pillar of fire etc(pretty specific indeed) nor was it worded cryptically like the child said it, it was very Skull Knight/God Hand-ish style of telling someone something.
Here's the only "mass dream" i can remember relating to this particular event, correct me if im wrong(goes without saying though really)
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Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Delta Phi on November 12, 2014, 12:26:17 PM
This is going to be good  :beast:

I won't comment on the deeper parts of your queries since Walter or Aaz will most undoubtedly do a finer job than I will, but...

What's wrong with the moon?
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You honestly can't see that the moon isn't full? Because it's not. Nearly there, but no, that's not a full moon.

Also, you might want to avoid posting scanlations here. It's against the rules. Typically, users will post the panel that they are wanting to reference with the text removed, much like quoting in a term paper (e.g. you wouldn't quote an entire chapter from a book when you need one sentence).
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 12, 2014, 01:08:36 PM
I honestly hadn't, but i see it now

Anyway, the more i think about it the more sense it would make if Griffith did just morph into the Moonlight Child, the idea of Griffith being all sneaky is alot sillier than my initial idea of him morphing when he can morph into Femto, seemingly it's a matter of controlling your ego,  he simply subsides his presence and the Moonlight Child takes over or at the full moon the child takes over w/e, makes more sense than the projection thing and a better story than the just removing him

Plus i just remembered Griffith summoned the wind vs Ganishka, so he seemingly must have control over the elementals, the guy really is all powerful
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 16, 2014, 03:22:42 PM
Hi "The Count",

I know you've changed your mind about what's the likeliest scenario here, but I wanted to address a few of the things you've said.

Don't you think it's a little silly that a bonafide God Hand like Griffith is being spiritually outmuscled/morphing into a child?

Considering how Femto came to be incarnated, there's really nothing silly about it. The body was originally that of the boy. And that boy had been born in the Interstice and had lived there for years prior to that event. Furthermore, we already know that the boy can force Griffith to act without his consent from the scene where he saved his mother in volume 22. And then there's the fact that the full moon dramatically boosts magical power that explains why it happens then.

P.S. "A bonafide God Hand"? Are there fake members of the God Hand?

Although i can see him projecting the boys soul so he can see his parents the same way he has those soldiers souls have their farewells.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Griffith has no reason to indulge the desires of the boy, and he's not "projecting" the kid's soul anyway. He appears with a corporeal body and we also get to see his astral body (one that bears some resemblance to Griffith...). Beyond that, Griffith is also not "projecting" the souls of the dead, at best he calls them to him and allows them to be seen.

although that prophecy he gave Guts could have been pulled straight out of the Idea Of Evil, as the fetus is infused with God Hand "genes"(for lack of a better word) and can probabley predict like the rest of the God Hand

At that time the boy just clued Guts in on what was going on. He also doesn't have "God Hand genes" and isn't related to the Idea of Evil as far as we know. He was "just" corrupted by evil while in the womb.

The kid will be a major(MAJOR) player in the story

Yeah, I came to that conclusion back in 2004.

The episode is Titled "Superhuman(Jnanin)" in the Dark Horse installment

Dark Horse's translation is inaccurate. "Superior Being" or "Super Being" is more correct.

This adds some consideration to Schierke's theory that the boy is some emmisary or king Hanafubuku himself, im sure it could be made sense of but it doesn't explain Zodd or the uncanny resemblance to Casca, which is why we are all more or less convinced it must be Guts child

But the boy's power is very similar to very powerful magi, as Schierke once said, powerful enough magi can even fly and that boy to have gotten up to those "branches", that could have taken the magi ability of flight or the flight ability is those branches as we see him in a sense, "fly" along the branches i.e the "secret paths" that powerful beings like king hanafubuku are capable of using(further giving some credence to Schierke's theory)

Although with me, along with the majority think it's more likely it is Guts child but also to go along with my own theory(s), I think he gained his knowledge either from being intuned with the Idea Of Evil/a deep layer of the astral world or as he lay alongside Griffith/Femto's spirit

Really I think it's all pretty simple: when Femto took over the boy's corporeal body, some of his power was also imparted to him. And I don't think there's any real doubt that the boy is Guts & Casca's child.

the trinity - Physical/Astral/Origin

Trinity? Origin? :???:

I dont know how you can say this with certainty, there is seemingly alot of touching going on

Walter's point is that the boy has a body of flesh. The difference between the two is quite obvious.

the Ganishka tree, esspecially since it caused the world to sink into a deeper realm of the astral world

I think it would be more exact to say that the astral world was brought into the corporeal world and not the other way around, given how it was depicted in the manga.

Dont think i've ever read "astral body", i've read "ethereal body" that roam the "astral world"
and as i've shown above, ethereal = spirit(perhaps soul was the wrong word, but astral world is just another way of saying spirit world) and thus astral = ethereal in your case

"Soul" and "spirit" do indeed refer to different things in the Berserk world. As for what words are proper between "astral body" or "ethereal body", I think both are fine. Schierke often uses the terms "body of light" or "luminous body" to refer to what she does when her astral self leaves her corporeal body.

The mass dreams had nothing to do with Casca or her being tied to a pillar of fire etc(pretty specific indeed)

You don't get it. Guts had the Falcon dream in volume 17. For him, it took the form of Casca being burned to death, and her death signifying the return of the Falcon. The dream differed for each person: The king, Zodd, Guts... Everyone in Midland had their own special experience. Anyway, right as Guts woke up from that dream, the boy warned him that Casca was in danger. Maybe he had had the dream as well, or maybe he knew about it because he could feel things moving in the astral world. But either way, for Guts the dream had everything to do with Casca and her being burned to the stake. His son just helped him understand that it wasn't a simple nightmare.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 17, 2014, 08:46:48 PM
Right you are "Aazealh", good post

P.S. "A bonafide God Hand"? Are there fake members of the God Hand?
Because he vanishes in the sunlight despite having a physical body, apostles dont have any problem bathing in the sunlight

That makes no sense whatsoever. Griffith has no reason to indulge the desires of the boy, and he's not "projecting" the kid's soul anyway. He appears with a corporeal body and we also get to see his astral body (one that bears some resemblance to Griffith...). Beyond that, Griffith is also not "projecting" the souls of the dead, at best he calls them to him and allows them to be seen.
Thanks, but it was merely me unable to think of a better word at the time. I also haven't seen anything saying he "calls" them, it has been stated they "gather" around Griffith though

And the kid is pretty slick eh? he leaves his vessel yet Griffith can't take advantage and he's wide awake in his body

At that time the boy just clued Guts in on what was going on. He also doesn't have "God Hand genes" and isn't related to the Idea of Evil as far as we know. He was "just" corrupted by evil while in the womb.
Refer to the top, i'm in need of answers

Dark Horse's translation is inaccurate. "Superior Being" or "Super Being" is more correct.
I will take your word on it

Trinity? Origin? :???:
Schierke mentions a "trinity" in the Dark Horse version, the physical world, the world of spirits i.e astral world, and the soul of the origin i.e world of idea

Walter's point is that the boy has a body of flesh. The difference between the two is quite obvious.
Sure, but that wasn't what he said

Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 17, 2014, 09:28:26 PM
Right you are "Aazealh"

I put your username between quotation marks because it's not a proper noun. Don't feel bad about it.

Because he vanishes in the sunlight despite having a physical body, apostles dont have any problem bathing in the sunlight

...?
Griffith does not vanish in the sunlight. That is not something that distinguishes members of the God Hand from apostles.

And if you refer to the boy, even though I wasn't talking about him in the line you quoted, then that was before Femto was incarnated into his body. We haven't seen how he reacts to sunlight since then. In any case, the boy has never been related to apostles (and he obviously wasn't affiliated with the God Hand either before the incarnation). He had been tainted by Femto while in the womb, and that had made him a rather unique being in the Berserk world. That's all.

I also haven't seen anything saying he "calls" them, it has been stated they "gather" around Griffith though

I think the pictures speak for themselves. Take episode 335, Griffith comes, he motions and they appear, he motions again and they go to their loved ones, taking human form. They are clearly coming to him because he wills it. It's not something that just happens to be no matter what.

And the kid is pretty slick eh? he leaves his vessel yet Griffith can't take advantage and he's wide awake in his body

What?

Refer to the top, i'm in need of answers

What?

Schierke mentions a "trinity" in the Dark Horse version, the physical world, the world of spirits i.e astral world, and the soul of the origin i.e world of idea

The "soul of the origin"? Another bad translation. As for "trinity", the word Schierke uses is "三身一体". The first two kanji are that of the Trikāya, the three bodies of the Buddha. They refer to three aspects of reality. The second part of the word refers to unity, to the joining of several things as one. While the spelling of the word is close to that of "trinity" ("三位一体") in Japanese, translating it like that in English implies a reference to Christian doctrine that is just misleading, because it's clearly not what Miura's going for here.

Anyway, you got the general idea. Three worlds (corporeal, astral, ideal) that form one reality.

Sure, but that wasn't what he said

You know, I'm always in favor of being as accurate as possible, but in the context of a discussion I think showing good faith is generally the commendable way to go about things.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 17, 2014, 10:48:05 PM
I put your username between quotation marks because it's not a proper noun. Don't feel bad about it.
I dont/didn't, i put your name in quotations because i wasn't planning on quoting anything, but eventually i did and thus the confusion ensued

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...?
Griffith does not vanish in the sunlight. That is not something that distinguishes members of the God Hand from apostles.

And if you refer to the boy, even though I wasn't talking about him in the line you quoted, then that was before Femto was incarnated into his body. We haven't seen how he reacts to sunlight since then. In any case, the boy has never been related to apostles (and he obviously wasn't affiliated with the God Hand either before the incarnation). He had been tainted by Femto while in the womb, and that had made him a rather unique being in the Berserk world. That's all.
I did mean the boy, but you are missing my point completely, the quote before had to do with the "bonafide god-hand" comment i had made, what i meant to say is that i feel the boy is like a demi-god-hand, he wasn't "just" corrupted by any evil, and may have (for a lack of a better word) "god-hand genes"

but now, unlike before, you're admitting he wasn't "just" tainted, as if by any ole' demon, but tainted by a very powerful being, which does make him unique

and thus my use of "bonafide" when referring to Griffith

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I think the pictures speak for themselves. Take episode 335, Griffith comes, he motions and they appear, he motions again and they go to their loved ones, taking human form. They are clearly coming to him because he wills it. It's not something that just happens to be no matter what.
They were there before any motioning, just checked, and the "focusing of power" moment was no different to when he held the "dad's" soul in his hand before sending him to his family in his physical appearence

Not seeing anything that proves he can call any spirit from wherever to him although with his mysterious "angelic" abilities i'd buy w/e miura came up with about him repelling or attracting

Looks to me like the spirits gather around not so different to how they gather to Guts, but Guts isn't an "angel" beloved by the dead and with super powers

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You know, I'm always in favor of being as accurate as possible, but in the context of a discussion I think showing good faith is generally the commendable way to go about things.
Did i again say something offensive? Otherwise im not following
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 08:24:43 AM
I dont/didn't, i put your name in quotations because i wasn't planning on quoting anything, but eventually i did and thus the confusion ensued

Uh huh.

I did mean the boy, but you are missing my point completely, the quote before had to do with the "bonafide god-hand" comment i had made, what i meant to say is that i feel the boy is like a demi-god-hand, he wasn't "just" corrupted by any evil, and may have (for a lack of a better word) "god-hand genes"

but now, unlike before, you're admitting he wasn't "just" tainted, as if by any ole' demon, but tainted by a very powerful being, which does make him unique

and thus my use of "bonafide" when referring to Griffith

Hahaha, yeah well, no, the boy isn't like a "demi-member of the God Hand". He was certainly unique even before the Incarnation, but his powers were not at all comparable (more like a "super specter" of sorts), nor was he related to them beyond the fact his sorry condition was the result of being tainted by one of them. So yes, the boy was "just" corrupted by evil (as the Skull Knight tells Guts in volume 14), and no, he didn't have "God Hand genes". You're quick to talk of things being written black on white in the manga when it suits you, but you aren't so picky when it comes to your own strange assumptions...

There's nothing in the manga that hints in any way whatsover at what you're saying. The boy had neither the power, the agenda, the evil presence or the specific astral properties of a member of the God Hand. Unlike them, he had a corporeal body (the one that Femto took over) and could materialize in the world with ease.

They were there before any motioning, just checked, and the "focusing of power" moment was no different to when he held the "dad's" soul in his hand before sending him to his family in his physical appearence

Not seeing anything that proves he can call any spirit from wherever to him although with his mysterious "angelic" abilities i'd buy w/e miura came up with about him repelling or attracting

Hahaha, look, that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you argue in bad faith. You're the one who was saying Griffith was "projecting" those souls, which just isn't true. Then I threw you a bone by saying he does beckon to them when it suits him, but now you're arguing the veracity of that as if it wasn't what you were saying in the first place!

In any case, you'll notice that Griffith isn't surrounded by the dead all day long, and that in episode 335 they come to him (which we do see) right at that moment. It's not a coincidence: they came because he wanted them to.

Looks to me like the spirits gather around not so different to how they gather to Guts, but Guts isn't an "angel" beloved by the dead and with super powers

Without Schierke's seal, Guts is harassed by evil spirits all night long, every night. Griffith can summon the recently dead so they can speak to their loved ones. Not really the same process, although the parallel is interesting.

Did i again say something offensive? Otherwise im not following

What I'm saying is that it was clear what Walter's point was, and that focusing on the wording to find a "gotcha" instead of considering his point didn't help your argument. Same thing is currently happening just above.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 18, 2014, 10:01:25 AM
Hahaha, yeah well, no, the boy isn't like a "demi-member of the God Hand". He was certainly unique even before the Incarnation, but his powers were not at all comparable (more like a "super specter" of sorts), nor was he related to them beyond the fact his sorry condition was the result of being tainted by one of them. So yes, the boy was "just" corrupted by evil (as the Skull Knight tells Guts in volume 14), and no, he didn't have "God Hand genes". You're quick to talk of things being written black on white in the manga when it suits you, but you aren't so picky when it comes to your own strange assumptions...There's nothing in the manga that hints in any way whatsover at what you're saying. The boy had neither the power, the agenda, the evil presence or the specific astral properties of a member of the God Hand. Unlike them, he had a corporeal body (the one that Femto took over) and could materialize in the world with ease.
well, being a fetus and bizarrely tainted, nvm with alot less evil than official members of the god-hand, yea, it does kind of suggest it's power wouldn't be comparable to a... wait for it, "bonafide" god-hand

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Hahaha, look, that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you argue in bad faith. You're the one who was saying Griffith was "projecting" those souls, which just isn't true. Then I threw you a bone by saying he does beckon to them when it suits him, but now you're arguing the veracity of that as if it wasn't what you were saying in the first place!
Here i thought you were the one nitpicking
It seems that projecting comment completely flew over your head, when i used the word projecting i meant only for the act of giving the orb of light its physical form

I was in no way shape or form talking about griffiths ability to call or control or send away the spirits, simply put the process of going from orb to man shaped

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In any case, you'll notice that Griffith isn't surrounded by the dead all day long, and that in episode 335 they come to him (which we do see) right at that moment. It's not a coincidence: they came because he wanted them to.
They showed up when he showed up?
It would be no coincidence if Guts walked into a cemetary at night(wouldn't need to be night anymore) and ghosts were "summoned" to him

and im sure they do come because he wants them to, doesn't mean he calls them, he could just "let" them

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What I'm saying is that it was clear what Walter's point was, and that focusing on the wording to find a "gotcha" instead of considering his point didn't help your argument. Same thing is currently happening just above.
Oh, kind of like "it would be more exact to say the astral world was brought into the corpereal world..."
Dont worry about it, i don't, i don't see a problem with being corrected

If i had said "you can touch the boy, you can't touch those spirits", i have no doubt you would have corrected me
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 10:52:43 AM
well, being a fetus and bizarrely tainted, nvm with alot less evil than official members of the god-hand, yea, it does kind of suggest it's power wouldn't be comparable to a... wait for it, "bonafide" god-hand

Alright, so now it's clear you have no actual point, nothing to back what you're asserting, but you just don't want to relent. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.

It seems that projecting comment completely flew over your head, when i used the word projecting i meant only for the act of giving the orb of light its physical form

I was in no way shape or form talking about griffiths ability to call or control or send away the spirits, simply put the process of going from orb to man shaped

Your inability to use proper vocabulary is no one's fault but yours. Beyond that, you used that word when you were comparing the summoning of dead souls to the Moonlight Boy's appearance to his parents, which you mistakenly believed was a process through which Griffith discarded the boy from himself (something closer to the notion of a "projection"). And since you're one for accuracy, Griffith doesn't give the souls (who aren't really orbs) a physical form. They take on a human shape but they have no corporeal body.

They showed up when he showed up?
It would be no coincidence if Guts walked into a cemetary at night(wouldn't need to be night anymore) and ghosts were "summoned" to him

They appeared shortly after he did, actually. In any case, like I precedently pointed out, we have seen Griffith countless times without seeing souls near him, including when surrounded by dead bodies (on the battlefield). Additionally, the first time we saw him summon souls like that, he was not near any corpses that we could see, so that's not related. Finally, Guts is attacked by specters regardless of being near to corpses or not. If anything, being near a cemetary would likely mean he'd be attacked by possessed skeletons or decomposing bodies, like we have seen in the past.

and im sure they do come because he wants them to, doesn't mean he calls them, he could just "let" them

Ah, so he could just let them come! Well sure, sure all the souls everywhere could always be trying to come swirling around him and he'd be consciously repulsing them all the time, except when he wanted to cherry-pick certain souls at a certain time and allow them to come nearby so that they'd see their loved ones. Or he could summon them and allow them to be seen when he sees fit.

Oh, kind of like "it would be more exact to say the astral world was brought into the corpereal world..."
Dont worry about it, i don't, i don't see a problem with being corrected

The difference is that your reply was a way for you to avoid admitting the evidence: that the boy isn't an astral projection. And it does seem to me that you have a problem with being corrected, as our current exchange shows.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: slothqueen on November 18, 2014, 01:59:07 PM
Moonlight Boy is pretty much enigmatic to me.

It seems like the blemish of evil (fucked up look and so) disappeared as Femto incarnated into child's body. What is he now than? "Pure" Guts & Casca's son, no longer tainted? Still his abilities are far from normal kid's ones (flying, or connecting with berserker's armour). Some form Griffith takes to meet Guts? Rather nope, I find no reason for Griffith to making trips to Guts and Casca now... though it seems that MB occurs only when Griffith's part of story ends, and he's free to do as he wish (ergo, he possibly could utilize this time to travel to his "parents"). Anyway, if that was true, Casca's and Guts' brands would display that fact (they was insensitive to the presence of the child, I guess, but not to the presence of Griffith).
There is also a theory that Griffith sometimes releases MB (losing temporarily his body), but what business would Griffith have into giving MB these short glimpses of freedom? Child clearly has his own free will - why does he even returns to his oppressor? And why is his former ugly look gone? It would be logic if body was constantly under Griffith's control (he'd be able to hide blemish of evil), which is impossible (because of the reason I put on formerly).

Meh, I would be grateful if somebody has some reasonable theory about what is Moonlight Boy now...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Salem on November 18, 2014, 02:11:19 PM
I've come to the conclusion it's a waste of time arguing about stuff you just don't know for sure.  Until the series is over and all is explained,  why get upset about it having a disagreement?   Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: IncantatioN on November 18, 2014, 02:37:45 PM
Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.

Well, not if the information is inaccurate. You read of many theories and assumptions but without any grounds of being true to what we read in the manga. You wouldn't want to come to a forum where you're misinformed about a series. The admin's are correct in making sure the info is accurate. They go to the extent of breaking it down for us fairly, to help us understand which's something we should be very fortunate to have.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Salem on November 18, 2014, 02:50:44 PM
If the bickering starts sounding personal.   That's what I was trying to get across.   :zodd:  Not the admins using truth  :griffnotevil:  They are absolutely fair.  Its just easy to let your imagination run wild when you get excited.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 03:04:28 PM
I've come to the conclusion it's a waste of time arguing about stuff you just don't know for sure.  Until the series is over and all is explained,  why get upset about it having a disagreement?   Besides, if someone stumbles on this site and sees constant bickering they could be turned off.  Just saying.

Well I don't disagree in principle that "bickering" is a general turn off, although some people do enjoy "heated" arguments. However as IncantatioN says, when someone posts something incorrect, it's better to point it out rather than let misinformation spread. Now, the problem that can arise is that sometimes people won't easily accept being wrong about something (it can be as simple as the spelling of Guts' name), and a discussion will devolve into something of practically no relevance. And then I agree that there is no real point in keeping it going, but we can't just forbid people to say what they want, now can we? And yet at the same time, we still can't let misinformation spread, so we end up with longish backs and forths of little interest. There's not much can done for that, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Salem on November 18, 2014, 03:10:59 PM
For sure.  My post above was what I didn't quite get across in the first comment.  In the end though, some of us might just be hard headed within certain subjects.  :SK:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 18, 2014, 03:14:55 PM
Alright, so now it's clear you have no actual point, nothing to back what you're asserting, but you just don't want to relent. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.
You seem to be losing it a bit, relax man, this is pointless banter, it wont affect our daily lives
But here's some evidence, the kid can teleport, control evil spirits and seemingly a forceshield(similar to Griffiths push and pull?) or that's what appeared like in one frame when mozgus shot his fire, oh and he also has some weird illusionary/telekenetic ability which allowed him to show guts casca's face(on fire)

I think him controling evil spirits shows he's maybe above even an apostle, rank wise, im sure any apostle would murder him in a fight, think royalty.

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Your inability to use proper vocabulary is no one's fault but yours.
Nah, although I admit I sometimes mess up what im trying to get across, but this one I think is your own fault, sorry friend.

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Beyond that, you used that word when you were comparing the summoning of dead souls to the Moonlight Boy's appearance to his parents, which you mistakenly believed was a process through which Griffith discarded the boy from himself (something closer to the notion of a "projection").
No, there were two theories, you're getting them mixed together

Simply put, not the summoning of the dead souls, projecting their physical appearence from their orb like spirits, get it?

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And since you're one for accuracy, Griffith doesn't give the souls (who aren't really orbs) a physical form. They take on a human shape but they have no corporeal body.
Aye, good call, I swear I typed "physical appearence" but somewhere among the deleting and editing I messed up once again, apologies.

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They appeared shortly after he did, actually. In any case, like I precedently pointed out, we have seen Griffith countless times without seeing souls near him, including when surrounded by dead bodies (on the battlefield).
Because it wasn't night time, and later on because of the Ganishka tree

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Additionally, the first time we saw him summon souls like that, he was not near any corpses that we could see, so that's not related.

What's not related? Was he not right next to a battlefield? I dont think it would be too far-fetched to believe there were some spirits right around the corner, amidst all the dead bodies.

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Finally, Guts is attacked by specters regardless of being near to corpses or not. If anything, being near a cemetary would likely mean he'd be attacked by possessed skeletons or decomposing bodies, like we have seen in the past.
Ok, missing the point but ok.

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Ah, so he could just let them come! Well sure, sure all the souls everywhere could always be trying to come swirling around him and he'd be consciously repulsing them all the time, except when he wanted to cherry-pick certain souls at a certain time and allow them to come nearby so that they'd see their loved ones. Or he could summon them and allow them to be seen when he sees fit.
It's too bad I can't post an image(with the text), but, i emplore you, go to the page(s) when we first see Griffith playing with the ghosts, plenty of spirits around, kid says "where's dad/father/papa"(w/e, paraphrasing) Griffith grabs hold of his spirit and projects(I actually can't think of another word) his physical appearence, they have their farewells yada yada, notice there are still plenty of spirits around before he ultimately, seemingly with less effort than giving the spirit it's physical appearence, just sort of nonchalantly sends them all away.

Now, go to one of the more recent episodes, go to the page where Griffith is "charging up his "od" before "projecting" the spirits with family in the vicinity. Now turn the page and what do you have? More spirits, yes, he didn't project all the spirits, he can choose to give them a "physical appearence" with a little effort OR just send them away deeper into the beyond with little thought.

So it's not so absurd, right?

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The difference is that your reply was a way for you to avoid admitting the evidence: that the boy isn't an astral projection. And it does seem to me that you have a problem with being corrected, as our current exchange shows.
Umm, yea, I had an opinion, usually people stick to their opinions until convinced otherwise or is that just me? I had the (stupid)idea in one theory that maybe the boy was being projected by a nearby Griffith, kind of like those other spirits, Walt said "yea but casca can touch the boy, you can't touch the other spirits" I said "not true man, here, look at this, you can touch them"

and our minds = blown

Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter? Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

Perhaps I need but simply have you guys warm up to me, or maybe we'll never get along who knows
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 06:06:48 PM
You seem to be losing it a bit, relax man, this is pointless banter, it wont affect our daily lives

Ah yes, the classic! Rest assured, my daily life is not affected (well, aside from the time I'm losing).

But here's some evidence, the kid can teleport, control evil spirits and seemingly a forceshield(similar to Griffiths push and pull?) or that's what appeared like in one frame when mozgus shot his fire, oh and he also has some weird illusionary/telekenetic ability which allowed him to show guts casca's face(on fire)

Any random specter can also appear and disappear at will (or take on different forms), that goes with the territory. Other than that, the boy did not control evil spirits, he could just hold them off (much like the Skull Knight did not "control" the Slug Count in volume 10). And while he managed to briefly protect his mother from Mozgus' flames, it was at the cost of his life. He was dying when the Beherit Apostle took him. None of this is related to the God Hand, nor does it constitute evidence of any sort that the boy was related to them. Quite the contrary in fact.

I think him controling evil spirits shows he's maybe above even an apostle, rank wise, im sure any apostle would murder him in a fight, think royalty.

See, this is ridiculous. Ranks? Royalty? Where's that mentioned in the manga? Nowhere. The boy was never a member of the God Hand in any capacity before the Incarnation occurred. Everything in the manga points to the contrary.

Nah, although I admit I sometimes mess up what im trying to get across, but this one I think is your own fault, sorry friend.

You've admitted yourself that you only used it because you couldn't think of a proper word to convey your intent...

No, there were two theories, you're getting them mixed together

Simply put, not the summoning of the dead souls, projecting their physical appearence from their orb like spirits, get it?

I don't believe I'm getting anything mixed together. Again, your inability to properly convey what you mean is no one's fault but yours. Either way, you've run this into the ground to try to justify an idea that you've already reneged on (that Griffith "projected" the boy). You're also still using the word "project" in a way that makes little sense. The souls are shapeless, and under Griffith's influence they briefly take on their former human appearances. That's all there is to it.

You should understand that when you speak of "projecting" with regard to spirits and the like, what it evokes is "astral projection". That's something more akin to what Schierke does when her spiritual self (luminous body) leaves her corporeal body. And in Griffith's case, "projecting from an orb" implies he's playing an hologram from a magic sphere, while the souls actually change shape and are free to move around. No matter how you look at it, it's both incorrect and badly worded.

Because it wasn't night time, and later on because of the Ganishka tree

We did see Griffith at night time without any souls around him, for example in episodes 235, 258 or 298. As for the tree, what is it supposed to do anyway? Allow souls to appear during the day, or prevent them from appearing? Because they do show in daylight within the hall in episode 335, and are not there later on during the day in episode 337. Anyway, nothing in the manga indicates that the tree has a particular effect on them. Honestly, we both know you're just grasping at straws here and it shows.

What's not related? Was he not right next to a battlefield? I dont think it would be too far-fetched to believe there were some spirits right around the corner, amidst all the dead bodies.

No actually, from the aerial view of the camp we see, they're not right next to a battlefield. It wouldn't make much sense for an army to set up a camp right next to a field of dead bodies anyway, who'd want to do that?

It's too bad I can't post an image(with the text), but, i emplore you, go to the page(s) when we first see Griffith playing with the ghosts, plenty of spirits around, kid says "where's dad/father/papa"(w/e, paraphrasing) Griffith grabs hold of his spirit and projects(I actually can't think of another word) his physical appearence, they have their farewells yada yada, notice there are still plenty of spirits around before he ultimately, seemingly with less effort than giving the spirits their physical appearence, just sort of nonchalantly sends them away.

Now, go to the latest chapter, go to the page where Griffith is "charging up his "od" before "projecting" the spirits with family in the vicinity. Now turn the page and what do you have? More spirits, yes, he didn't project all the spirits, he can choose to give them a "physical appearence" with a little effort OR just send them away deeper into the beyond with little thought.

So it's not so absurd, right?

The latest chapter is "The chapter of the Elf Island". You mean the latest episode. But the latest episode is 337, and you actually mean 335. Anyway, what you say here seems irrelevant to me. I mean look at the point you are trying to make. That Griffith can summon souls (or they come to him when he lets them, if you prefer), allow them to appear as their former selves to their loved ones, and then send them away as he wants. Well that's just what I have been saying from the beginning. That all souls are sent to see someone or not is pretty much inconsequential because this little show only takes place when it is supposed to. Besides, no one said each soul has to be called forth nominatively.

Your use of the word "project" is still wrong though (remember, that's all I wanted to tell you), and Griffith doesn't "charge up his Od" either. He just walks forward, three souls come to him from above (so not from the direction of the coffins, just so you know), then he gestures and more souls come. Then he gestures again and they go to the people, where they then regain their former appearance. Oh and about the first time we see him do this? Mule arrives in the middle of it. That's why the souls are already there.

Umm, yea, I had an opinion, usually people stick to their opinions until convinced otherwise or is that just me? I had the (stupid)idea in one theory that maybe the boy was being projected by a nearby Griffith, kind of like those other spirits, Walt said "yea but casca can touch the boy, you can't touch the other spirits" I said "not true man, here, look at this, you can touch them"

and our minds = blown

Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter?

Nothing mind-blowing about this, sorry to say. See Guts' comment about the texture of the specters as he fights them with SK's sword in volume 13. Anyhow, I've already told you twice why I made that comment: because I don't think that particular reply was made in good faith. That's all. Of course we all have our opinions, but here it was more a matter of seeing the facts: that the boy does have a corporeal body, unlike those dead souls.

Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

Perhaps I need but simply have you guys warm up to me, or maybe we'll never get along because I have my own opinions

I believe it does come across as pretentious for you to say that people must disapprove of new members instead of thinking that maybe it's the disingenuousness you've shown during this argument that might be the problem. And I also think most of your bad karma came in today, you were only at -1 before. It could always go back up though, it all comes down to one's attitude and the quality of their posts. Just like real karma!

Anyway, you speak of having your own opinions, but that's not the subject here. Of course everyone has their own opinions. But when you say that the kid was born with "God Hand genes", well that's just not true if we stick to what's in the manga. We are actually explained why he's like that, but you prefer to assert something else despite not having any ground to stand on. In such a case, don't be surprised if others don't agree with you.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 18, 2014, 07:28:09 PM
Haven't seen any specter use that whirling teleporting ability
If you can't understand what I meant when I said "rank wise"/"think royalty" then you're either, i dont want to go there.. or fiegning ignorance doing the very thing you accused me of. Avoiding the point just to get a "gotcha" was it?

Anyway, this convo has gone on long enough.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 09:00:31 PM
Haven't seen any specter use that whirling teleporting ability

The boy has appeared and disappeared many times throughout the series, and it wasn't always represented that way. It's not his signature move or anything. Anyway, we do see specters appear or disappear at will, for example in volume 13 when Guts is fighting them while the Skull Knight watches, and suddenly they go away (to Casca).

If you can't understand what I meant when I said "rank wise"/"think royalty" then you're either, i dont want to go there.. or fiegning ignorance doing the very thing you accused me of. Avoiding the point just to get a "gotcha" was it?

Oh but I understand it perfectly, it's just not true. Nowhere in the manga is there ever any mention of such a ranking system, and there's no reason to believe anything like that exists.

Anyway, this convo has gone on long enough.

Agreed!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: The Count on November 18, 2014, 09:18:07 PM
lol sorry but,

The boy has appeared and disappeared many times throughout the series, and it wasn't always represented that way. It's not his signature move or anything. Anyway, we do see specters appear or disappear at will, for example in volume 13 when Guts is fighting them while the Skull Knight watches, and suddenly they go away (to Casca).
Well, there's fading in and out, then there's teleporting. You said im grasping at straws, but you're here thinking the kid just asks the spirits politely not to devour his mom. You're trying so hard not to be wrong I lol'd.

Quote
Oh but I understand it perfectly, it's just not true. Nowhere in the manga is there ever any mention of such a ranking system, and there's no reason to believe anything like that exists.
It was a metaphor, is this all really going over your head? You dont think the God-Hand ranks a little higher than most demons, with the worship they get etc? You know what, dont think too hard on it, forget it.

Quote
Agreed!
"Agreed!"

I wont respond anymore, you may carry on good sir.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 18, 2014, 10:10:23 PM
Well, there's fading in and out, then there's teleporting.

Dude, why do you keep talking about teleportation? Do we see the boy beaming up across vast distances or something? No. No we don't. We see him appear and we see him disappear. Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh and in the example I mentioned, the specters disappear from one location and appear at the next one right away as far as we can tell. Where's the distinction?

you're here thinking the kid just asks the spirits politely not to devour his mom. You're trying so hard not to be wrong I lol'd.

Uh huh, I'm the one who's trying soooo hard here! :slan:

And yes, that's exactly what I said! He's asking them very politely, "pretty please with a cherry on top"! Not just staring them down, which like I already told you is hardly evidence that he controls them, much like the Skull Knight did not control the Slug Count and Rochine when he stared them down until they left in volume 10.

It was a metaphor, is this all really going over your head? You dont think the God-Hand ranks a little higher than most demons, with the worship they get etc? You know what, dont think too hard on it, forget it.

A metaphor? Are you sure that's the correct figure of speech? As for the God Hand, why yes, they do actually "rank" higher (a lot higher) than apostles ("most demons"? What?), most definitely so. One could even say that they rule over them, like some kind of royalty! :carcus: However... wait for it... Nothing in the manga ever hinted in the slightest that the boy was related to the God Hand prior to the Incarnation. And like I told you before, there are many elements in the manga that directly contradict this strange notion you're clinging to.

So as a conclusion: no, the Demon Child didn't "rank" higher than apostles on an imaginary ranking board. There are just the members of the God Hand and the apostles, no "demi-members of the God Hand" that have a special "rank" because of their "God Hand genes".
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Delta Phi on November 18, 2014, 10:43:17 PM
It's too bad I can't post an image

But you can!

(with the text),

The text you'd most likely include may not be entirely accurate (such as Dark Horse, or...the Hawks :magni:), and most times the text, (such as in this case) isn't necessary, but you can include the proper translation in your post if you need to, and SK.net has the best translations around.

I know I corrected you on this, but I'd like to point out, there's nothing stopping you from screen capping, doing some editing, and uploading your images. Even someone with minimual MS Paint skills (like me) can do this. As a fan you should have these resources readily available to you.

Even still, if you don't want to go through that trouble, then at least take the time to get the episode, and, to maybe a lesser extent, the page numbers correct so that panels and examples can be seen. Most times this isn't an issue since topics are pretty easily find-able in the manga.

A little effort to support your claims goes a long way though.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Skeleton on November 19, 2014, 04:09:26 AM
Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter? Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

Perhaps I need but simply have you guys warm up to me, or maybe we'll never get along who knows

The great thing about good internet forums like SKnet is that the only thing you need to do to stop digging a deeper hole for yourself is to stop digging.  If you just cut your losses here and put some quality effort into your next post then it'll be like this train wreck never happened.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on November 19, 2014, 05:52:18 PM
I had the (stupid)idea in one theory that maybe the boy was being projected by a nearby Griffith, kind of like those other spirits, Walt said "yea but casca can touch the boy, you can't touch the other spirits" I said "not true man, here, look at this, you can touch them"

and our minds = blown

I can't speak for everyone else, but my mind wasn't "blown" because the panel you referenced has no bearing on the argument you were making. While indeed you correctly referenced a panel showing what appears to be a spirit grazing the cheek of his loved one, I think you'll agree that it's fundamentally different from the interactions the boy has with his parents. Therefore, I didn't see the point in going further with that reasoning, since I think the facts are pretty self evident: the boy is not the same as the spirits that gather around Griffith. Those spirits are weightless and aren't affected by gravity. The boy is. Is that even necessary to point out?

Quote
Honestly I think your quarrell here is that i might have been right with Walter? Not to seem pretentious but after that post(maybe it was my very first post) I think the negative karma rolled in, and I wasn't sure what I did wrong, wondering if maybe the karma came from my modifying of my posts, but I think i get it now. That this forum, although im sure great people, intelligent people, is not too welcoming to newbies with their own thoughts

For the record, I never gave you negative karma. In fact, I've only ever given you +1 karma, because in general I like revisiting big speculations like these. Even when they get messy. I'm probably alone in that regard... Of course, there's no record of these things, so you'll have to take my word for that. But I haven't replied since several days ago because the last time I checked, you had removed several of the examples I would have replied to (the full moon being one of them). So, for my part, I was done.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on November 21, 2014, 12:58:54 AM
Hello Everyone,

This is my first time posting on this forum although I have visited it several times and find many of the discussions quite interesting. If I do break any of the rules please feel free to correct me, more specifically regarding the panels.

Now to the topic at hand. Aaz, thank you for bringing your theory to light. At first I must admit I believed it was a bit farfetched, basing such a theory on a silhouette of Zodd, which I had also noticed while reading. But than the more I thought about it the more it made sense. Now I do not support the idea that Griffith controls the boy or even has the ability to summon him especially since the child seems to have more control over Griffith, at least in certain situations such as when Griffith saved Casca. Also, perhaps this is a simplistic thought, but I see a strange similarity in the way Casca holds the moon child vs the way Griffith holds Casca.

Prior to the theory of Griffith and the moon child being one I was satisfied with Schierke's idea that the child was linked to the Elf King, which still very well could be the case. However, the parallel between the two is impossible to ignore. Either way one fact that can be stated is that the child has exposed a major weakness in the seemingly unstoppable Griffith. Certainly, this weakness will come in to play later on.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 22, 2014, 12:05:10 AM
Hello Everyone,

This is my first time posting on this forum although I have visited it several times and find many of the discussions quite interesting.

Hey there, welcome to the forum!

Now to the topic at hand. Aaz, thank you for bringing your theory to light.

No problem, although it's been quite a while now... Time flies!

Now I do not support the idea that Griffith controls the boy or even has the ability to summon him especially since the child seems to have more control over Griffith, at least in certain situations such as when Griffith saved Casca.

Indeed, I don't believe Griffith controls the boy or anything of the sort. It's pretty clear he's got his own mind and his own agenda.

Also, perhaps this is a simplistic thought, but I see a strange similarity in the way Casca holds the moon child vs the way Griffith holds Casca.

I don't think there's any deep connexion there honestly.

Prior to the theory of Griffith and the moon child being one I was satisfied with Schierke's idea that the child was linked to the Elf King, which still very well could be the case.

Eh, I'd honestly bet whatever you want that Schierke's wrong about this. I think the overall evidence is pretty clear.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on November 22, 2014, 01:07:10 AM

Eh, I'd honestly bet whatever you want that Schierke's wrong about this. I think the overall evidence is pretty clear.

Overall evidence? Although you have brought forth quite a convincing theory. I dont think we could bet the barn that the witch didn't get it right. I mean sure the moon child looks like Guts and Casca, but Im pretty sure the Elf King, as powerful as he is said to be, could easily transform himself to resemble the two in an effort to appear less threatening while observing their actions. Also, it would also give a reason for why Zodd was present as Im sure Griffith will eventually have his eyes set on conquering the island so it is not out of the question for him to want to observe the Elf King's powers. This occurrence would also support the idea of Guts' child still being within Griffith if in fact the moon child and demon child are separate entities. At this point I would support either theory although I must admit yours would be far more interesting.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Skeleton on November 22, 2014, 01:49:48 AM
Overall evidence? Although you have brought forth quite a convincing theory. I dont think we could bet the barn that the witch didn't get it right. I mean sure the moon child looks like Guts and Casca, but Im pretty sure the Elf King, as powerful as he is said to be, could easily transform himself to resemble the two in an effort to appear less threatening while observing their actions. Also, it would also give a reason for why Zodd was present as Im sure Griffith will eventually have his eyes set on conquering the island so it is not out of the question for him to want to observe the Elf King's powers. This occurrence would also support the idea of Guts' child still being within Griffith if in fact the moon child and demon child are separate entities. At this point I would support either theory although I must admit yours would be far more interesting.

In episode 327 we're shown the luminous body of the Moonlight Boy helping Guts escape from the Sea God.  He has hair that is very similar to Griffith's hair.  If Schierke is right then the king is trying to make it appear as if there's a connection between the Moonlight Boy and Griffith.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on November 22, 2014, 01:59:14 AM
Overall evidence? Although you have brought forth quite a convincing theory. I dont think we could bet the barn that the witch didn't get it right. I mean sure the moon child looks like Guts and Casca, but Im pretty sure the Elf King, as powerful as he is said to be, could easily transform himself to resemble the two in an effort to appear less threatening while observing their actions. Also, it would also give a reason for why Zodd was present as Im sure Griffith will eventually have his eyes set on conquering the island so it is not out of the question for him to want to observe the Elf King's powers. This occurrence would also support the idea of Guts' child still being within Griffith if in fact the moon child and demon child are separate entities. At this point I would support either theory although I must admit yours would be far more interesting.

There are several, heavy-handed implications of the boy being Guts and Casca's son that are strewn throughout the episode he is introduced in and beyond. Him clinging to Casca / Casca clinging to him (just like with the demon child, and SK prophesized in vol 14: "all children yearn for their parents"), Casca detecting and seeking it out (three distinct, similar times: Vol 22 on the Hill of Swords, Vol 28 on the beach, and Vol 36 as Guts was fighting slugs), the group commenting that Guts, Casca and the child look like a family, Guts reminiscing about his lost son for the first time in forever on the same night he appears. Beyond that, the fact that it sought out Guts in Vol 37 (and when projecting his body underwater, had hair that resembled Griffith's), the evidence for this particular connection is pretty strong.

Also, if it turns out to have been the Elf King all along, it sure will make that "family" scene pretty awkward.  :ganishka:
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Aazealh on November 22, 2014, 11:37:03 AM
Overall evidence? Although you have brought forth quite a convincing theory. I dont think we could bet the barn that the witch didn't get it right.

Wanna bet? :carcus:

Anyway, Skeleton and Walter made excellent points in my stead, so you already have your answer from their posts. So instead of elaborating further I'll just poke holes in the alternate explanations you've proposed.

I mean sure the moon child looks like Guts and Casca, but Im pretty sure the Elf King, as powerful as he is said to be, could easily transform himself to resemble the two in an effort to appear less threatening while observing their actions.

And why in the world would he do that? What's in it for him? Also, from a storytelling perspective, considering that the group is traveling a great distance specifically to meet him, it'd feel like a big waste of time. Apart from that, the boy has the interests of a young child. He wants to cuddle with his mother, he's curious about what his dad is doing, he gets fed, etc. Why would a millennia old being masquerade like that, appearing and disappearing out of the blue in a disruptive way, if he simply wanted to observe? There's a myriad of other, much better ways to do that, including those Schierke's used herself, like possessing a bird. And the boy hasn't just observed things either, he's taken an active part in events each time he was around.

Also, it would also give a reason for why Zodd was present as Im sure Griffith will eventually have his eyes set on conquering the island so it is not out of the question for him to want to observe the Elf King's powers. This occurrence would also support the idea of Guts' child still being within Griffith if in fact the moon child and demon child are separate entities. At this point I would support either theory although I must admit yours would be far more interesting.

There's no reason to think Griffith has his eyes specifically set on conquering Elfhelm at the moment. And if he did, why would he need to send Zodd on a covert mission to spy on the appearance of the boy on the beach and his meeting with Guts and the others? That's worthless information, and to have Zodd be there right at that time would imply knowing it would happen in advance, which would then make it pointless to have to send Zodd just to briefly see it...
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: jackson_hurley on November 25, 2014, 07:47:04 PM
I like the fact that Schierke is probably (mostly) wrong about that assumption. It's just shows to me how she is still in learning and doesn't know everything since she is already aware of a lot of things on how the world functions. Such a great story!
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: Walter on November 27, 2014, 03:31:27 AM
Regarding the enigmatic name ジャンアーニン in Episode 243's title, I've come to a new conclusion that I think is pretty solid, for once: Jānin. It's the most convincing explanation thus far because of way the accents / diacritical marks are placed. It goes hand-in-hand with the way the katakana elongates the A sound. It seems like a perfect fit. It had eluded us for this long because of these pesky accents. We'd been close many times. Dark Horse even spells it out sans accent. But without those accents to inform us of how it was pronounced, it wasn't very convincing.

So what's it mean? It's the romanization of the Sanskrit word describing one endowed with superior knowledge a holy person. The Bhagavad Gita references jānin a number of times as enlightened ones closest to Bhagavan (God in human form), and the ones who know him better than any other being.

"Of the highest of the Bharatas, four types of pious persons render devotional service unto Me; the distressed, the seeker of knowledge, the desirers of wealth and men of wisdom (jnanin). Among them, the man of wisdom (jānin) always engaged exclusively in devotional service is superior; since to the cultivator of wisdom I am extremely dear and he is dear to Me."

Another translation of this passage: "Among these four classes of Bhaktas, who are all noble, the Jānin surpasseth all, for he is My very Self"

Sound familiar yet? :guts:

So, why a Sanskrit word? It is a little strange, but consider the context for this episode. It was a time of Kushan influence for the series, during which we see several Sanskrit words thrown around. Daiba calls Guts wearing the Berserk Armor "Kshatriya of Durga" and Serpico "Kshatriya of Vayu." Ganishka's transformed state is also referred to as "Shiva." So then it makes some sense that this supernatural entity is called a being with superior knowledge with a close connection to god (Griffith, who among many other names is the "Absolute One"). It's kind of neat, another culture's interpretation of these phenomenon.

Case closed...?
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: IncantatioN on November 27, 2014, 02:47:16 PM
That's a really good breakdown Walter and I think fits since Griffith's one of the five God (Bhagavan) Hand. And, makes me think - a Jnanin's one of the four bhaktas (a bhakt is a commonly used term to describe a devotee of anything, for instance desh bhakt means devotee of a country and so on), so I wonder what that sort of literal meaning impacts our understanding of the boy or it shouldn't be considered. The boy's so young and yet considered a Jnanin is fascinating.

Off topic - Sanskrit words were always fun to read in Berserk since I studied Sanskrit in school for 2 years and terms like Kshatriya (warrior) or Bhagavan/ Bhagwan (God) come up so often in the Hindi language. Sanskrit's the backbone for Hindi and pure sanskrit's hard to follow for a casual Hindi speaker, I had a hard time in my second year. Vayu literally means wind; the comparison to Shiva the destroyer was nice since Shiva was terrifying in that sort of mode; Durga mata, one of the many manifestations of Devi, is a goddess first summoned to battle demons or rakshas's as they're commonly called and ever since, has manifested in many battles (though she's not as destructive as her incarnation as Kali mata). Durga mata had a lion she rode, which gave her absolute command over her own power, determination and will. So I wonder if we'll get to see an extension of that where Guts is concerned.
Title: Re: The Moonlight Boy
Post by: ryOtoha on November 27, 2014, 10:07:59 PM
Durga mata had a lion she rode, which gave her absolute command over her own power, determination and will. So I wonder if we'll get to see an extension of that where Guts is concerned.

That's quite interesting.

With the consistency through his own form Miura gave to many classical elements, i think that's a really cool possibility. Something more complex than a simple destrier.

I would like a mecha please :troll: