If Guts uses his beherit

[Aazealh]

The key point for me is that early on he was basically living for revenge, unlike now. I think that back then it might have happened if things had gone far enough.

Well, I don't know. Even back then, getting a beherit was a way for him to gain a means to confront the God Hand, not to become an apostle. Don't forget that they're his real enemies, not the apostles. He lived for revenge, so asking Femto (among others) for power so that he could get his revenge against him... Yeah, doesn't seem very plausible.

It's really the existence of the crimson Beherits that made me think of the idea, since we know that they are more powerful, or at least different somehow.

Why do you use the plural? If beherits can be reused, then nothing prevents the same crimson beherit to have been used by all five members of the God Hand.

Yeah, I agree that the person's mind is the most likely source of the variation, but that itself appears to be a little problematic as some apostles don't actually seem to entirely match their forms or characters. Zodd doesn't seem to have a strong will or any especially powerful emotions that drive him. He reminds me a lot of Guts as he was with the Band of the Hawk - strongminded but without any particular goal or desires. Of course it may be that simply having a 'strong' mind was what gave Zodd his power. Another possibility is that his lust for battle lies behind his power.

I think Zodd does have a strong will. Though he decided to serve Griffith in the end (after having been defeated), he's the only one other than Ganishka that tried to fight him. And his desire was apparently to find the Ultimate Strong One, which coincidentally ended up being Griffith. Other than that, we don't know enough about him to really comment on his feelings and personality. But I think that to attribute his strength to the beherit he used as if it were just a stroke of luck is quite depreciating of his character.

 

[Ralwatt]

Well, I don't know. Even back then, getting a beherit was a way for him to gain a means to confront the God Hand, not to become an apostle. Don't forget that they're his real enemies, not the apostles. He lived for revenge, so asking Femto (among others) for power so that he could get his revenge against him... Yeah, doesn't seem very plausible.

When you put it that way it seems even less likely, yeah.

Why do you use the plural? If beherits can be reused, then nothing prevents the same crimson beherit to have been used by all five members of the God Hand.

Oh, good point. There probably is just one.

I think Zodd does have a strong will. Though he decided to serve Griffith in the end (after having been defeated), he's the only one other than Ganishka that tried to fight him. And his desire was apparently to find the Ultimate Strong One, which coincidentally ended up being Griffith. Other than that, we don't know enough about him to really comment on his feelings and personality. But I think that to attribute his strength to the beherit he used as if it were just a stroke of luck is quite depreciating of his character.

I agree his will is strong, but if he really cared so much about finding (and presumably fighting) the strongest foes then he really should have fought Griffith even if it might have been hopeless, as Guts certainly would. I'm not commenting on his personality so much as observing that so far he hasn't shown a part of his personality that fully justifies his power. I'm not saying that it's only the Beherit (assuming that individual Beherits did have an effect on the apostle created), but to me Zodd's will alone doesn't justify his position as one of the strongest apostles.
Of course we will probably learn a lot more about what drives him in the future. I fully expect that we will see more than enough justification, but until we do the Beherit idea offers an alternative possibility.

At the risk of going off-topic, may I ask why beherit is your preferred spelling? Is there some sort of artifact that the object in Berserk is based on, with that name? I'm just curious, since Japanese doesn't contain 'r'.

 

[Aazealh]

I agree his will is strong, but if he really cared so much about finding (and presumably fighting) the strongest foes then he really should have fought Griffith even if it might have been hopeless, as Guts certainly would.

That's what he did, and he died. Because it wasn't completely real he only lost a horn, but the point was proven and he knew he had found the one he'd been looking for.

I'm not commenting on his personality so much as observing that so far he hasn't shown a part of his personality that fully justifies his power.

Well that presupposes that we can accurately judge what justifies power nor not (which I don't think is the case). Besides, like I said, we know little about Zodd all things considered.

(assuming that individual Beherits did have an effect on the apostle created)

Which remains a baseless assumption for now.

At the risk of going off-topic, may I ask why beherit is your preferred spelling? Is there some sort of artifact that the object in Berserk is based on, with that name? I'm just curious, since Japanese doesn't contain 'r'.

My, but it is the only spelling. It is the name of a Devil in Syriac. Also, while Japanese doesn't have a phoneme equivalent to 'L' or 'R', it's 'R' that's usually preferred for romanized text.

 

[Ralwatt]

That's what he did, and he died. Because it wasn't completely real he only lost a horn, but the point was proven and he knew he had found the one he'd been looking for.

Well that presupposes that we can accurately judge what justifies power nor not (which I don't think is the case). Besides, like I said, we know little about Zodd all things considered.

Which remains a baseless assumption for now.

My, but it is the only spelling. It is the name of a Devil in Syriac. Also, while Japanese doesn't have a phoneme equivalent to 'L' or 'R', it's 'R' that's usually preferred for romanized text.

Yeah, but if his will was stronger I think he would have continued to fight in the real world.

And I think we agree about the lack of information.

Not baseless, just unlikely. There is evidence that supports it, but there are other much more likely explanations for said evidence.

Ah, I see. That would explain it.
Japanese does have a number of equivalents to /l/ though, which is how 'l' is normally sounded in English.
While 'r' is preferred, it is only preferred because of ignorance caused by the romanisation systems normally used which replaces la/li/lu/le/lo with ra/ri/ru/re/ro (and has a similar knock-on effect on the modified characters). It would only be correct to use 'r' when the word is meant to be one that already exists in another language and uses 'r' in that language. At least that is how my Japanese teacher explains it.
In any case, I didn't know that the name held that meaning, I'd never really thought about it.
It also ties in to the references made to how characters obtained beherits - from traders in the east.

 

[Aazealh]

Yeah, but if his will was stronger I think he would have continued to fight in the real world.

Except his goal was to find the Ultimate Strong One. Which he found. Not knowing his motivations, you cannot comment on his strength of will.

Not baseless, just unlikely. There is evidence that supports it

I don't think there is.

Japanese does have a number of equivalents to /l/ though, which is how 'l' is normally sounded in English.

It doesn't have an exact phoneme equivalent to either 'L' or 'R'. The closest would be an alveolar lateral flap (ɺ), which is different from the alveolar lateral approximant (l) that represents the letter 'L' in English. It does sound closer to 'L' than 'R' I guess, but there's still a difference. And that doesn't change how it's romanized by default anyway.

While 'r' is preferred, it is only preferred because of ignorance caused by the romanisation systems normally used which replaces la/li/lu/le/lo with ra/ri/ru/re/ro (and has a similar knock-on effect on the modified characters).

It's not preferred because of ignorance but because that's how the system was established, as you just said yourself. Regardless, your previous statement that Japanese doesn't contain 'r', implying that 'l' is the standard, was undoubtedly wrong.

It would only be correct to use 'r' when the word is meant to be one that already exists in another language and uses 'r' in that language.

Which is the case here.

It also ties in to the references made to how characters obtained beherits - from traders in the east.

What references?

 

[Ralwatt]

Except his goal was to find the Ultimate Strong One. Which he found. Not knowing his motivations, you cannot comment on his strength of will.

I don't think there is.

It doesn't have an exact phoneme equivalent to either 'L' or 'R'. The closest would be an alveolar lateral flap (ɺ), which is different from the alveolar lateral approximant (l) that represents the letter 'L' in English. It does sound closer to 'L' than 'R' I guess, but there's still a difference. And that doesn't change how it's romanized by default anyway.

It's not preferred because of ignorance but because that's how the system was established, as you just said yourself. Regardless, your previous statement that Japanese doesn't contain 'r', implying that 'l' is the standard, was undoubtedly wrong.

Which is the case here.

What references?

Yes, that's why I said we lack information.
But I can still try to extrapolate his intentions based on what is known. That's something we all do when judging what we think people are likely to do. Then, when a person acts against our prediction we try to adjust our model to compensate. Thus I question the strength of his will. I don't know how strong it is but that doesn't mean I can't try to estimate.

The evidence is the dramtic variation in power and form between apostles. As we agreed, there are other more likely explanations, which is what makes it unlikely.

It appears to me to be the case that both the lateral flap and lateral approximant are valid pronunciations used in Japanese. There a number of characters that use the phoneme in question and each is slightly different. Pronunciation also varies between individual words and individual speakers. Also, I did not say it is the same as the latter 'l', I said it is the same as the phoneme /l/ found in English phonetic charts. In any case, it is incorrect to romanise it as 'r'. It may be a heavily ingrained error but it is an error nonetheless.

I didn't disagree with you on this case - I made that statement because I agree with you that the proper spelling is "beherit".

A few characters make mention of beherits being bought from merchants or in eastern bazaars. Griffith got his from an eastern merchant I think. (Though I'm not sure if the merchant was specifically stated to be of eastern origin.)

 

[royoak]

It appears to me to be the case that both the lateral flap and lateral approximant are valid pronunciations used in Japanese. There a number of characters that use the phoneme in question and each is slightly different. Pronunciation also varies between individual words and individual speakers. Also, I did not say it is the same as the latter 'l', I said it is the same as the phoneme /l/ found in English phonetic charts. In any case, it is incorrect to romanise it as 'r'. It may be a heavily ingrained error but it is an error nonetheless.

No, you should listen more closely to the japanese pronounciation.
It's neither a english "R" or "L" - more like a clipped "L".
The sound is made by flicking the tip of the tongue off of the gums behind the top front teeth.
It sounds more like a "dd", like in Eddy, and not(!) like a "L".
A romanistaion with "r" is definitely not a mistake.

 

[Ralwatt]

No, you should listen more closely to the japanese pronounciation.
It's neither a english "R" or "L" - more like a clipped "L".
The sound is made by flicking the tip of the tongue off of the gums behind the top front teeth.
It sounds more like a "dd", like in Eddy, and not(!) like a "L".
A romanistaion with "r" is definitely not a mistake.

I never said it sounded like an 'l'.
I said it sounds like /l/, which it does. My Japanese teacher is also unequivocal on this.
I know full well how the sound is formed and it is nothing like the "dd" in "Eddy". You agree it sounds like a "clipped "L"" as seen in words like "leave", which is /l/, that is what the phoneme /l/ is!
And romanisation with an 'r' is considered correct within certain systems of romanisation but those systems are inaccurate.

Edit: Anyway, this it totally off topic so if you disagree that's ok, it's up to you to think whatever you want, but there are better places to debate the romanisation of Japanese.
I'm sorry I let the thread wander off topic so far.

 

[Aazealh]

But I can still try to extrapolate his intentions based on what is known. That's something we all do when judging what we think people are likely to do. Then, when a person acts against our prediction we try to adjust our model to compensate. Thus I question the strength of his will. I don't know how strong it is but that doesn't mean I can't try to estimate.

In the end there's still no basis for you to say that it's not strong enough compared to the power he has.

The evidence is the dramtic variation in power and form between apostles. As we agreed, there are other more likely explanations, which is what makes it unlikely.

That's not evidence that beherits vary in power, especially since different people can use the same beherit, and since the powers they are granted don't come from the beherit itself. I don't think you should keep insisting on the matter, really...

It appears to me to be the case that both the lateral flap and lateral approximant are valid pronunciations used in Japanese.

Not according to the official and international standards. I hope that's not what they're teaching you in school.

Pronunciation also varies between individual words and individual speakers.

It's irrelevant how individual speakers pronounce it. Then I could tell you that some people pronounce it close to a 'R'.

Also, I did not say it is the same as the latter 'l', I said it is the same as the phoneme /l/ found in English phonetic charts.

But it isn't the same.

In any case, it is incorrect to romanise it as 'r'. It may be a heavily ingrained error but it is an error nonetheless.

No, it's not. I'm afraid you have a wrong conception of what is correct or not based on your own appreciation of what should or shouldn't be. Again, I hope it's not what they're teaching you in school.

Griffith got his from an eastern merchant I think.

No, sorry but this isn't the case.

 

[Ralwatt]

In the end there's still no basis for you to say that it's not strong enough compared to the power he has.

That's not evidence that beherits vary in power, especially since different people can use the same beherit, and since the powers they are granted don't come from the beherit itself. I don't think you should keep insisting on the matter, really...

Not according to the official and international standards. I hope that's not what they're teaching you in school.

It's irrelevant how individual speakers pronounce it. Then I could tell you that some people pronounce it close to a 'R'.

But it isn't the same.

No, it's not. I'm afraid you have a wrong conception of what is correct or not based on your own appreciation of what should or shouldn't be. Again, I hope it's not what they're teaching you in school.

No, sorry but this isn't the case.

As I said, my basis is my own observation. You may disagree but that doesn't make my observation invalid.

As I said, it's one way of explaining the evidence that we see. I'm not insisting on anything but the possibility of the idea. I'm perfectly happy to agree with you on the improbability og the idea, all I'm saying it that it's possible. In any case, I consider the discussion closed.

Unless you're a professional linguist and native Japanese speaker as my independant teacher is, I will choose to belive her over you.
If you want to keep arguing I can give you her phone number and you can take it up with her. I'm tired of arguing about something so trivial.

I checked in the manga, and it was the count who Guts killed before the flashback whose behelit came from an eastern bazaar. I'm not sure if that was mentioned as the source of any of the other behelits seen, but I'm not going to go though the manga checking.

 

[Aazealh]

As I said, my basis is my own observation. You may disagree but that doesn't make my observation invalid.

Well, an observation can very well be invalid actually. Let's just say that's your opinion and agree to disagree. We can talk about it again whenever more information is provided.

As I said, it's one way of explaining the evidence that we see. I'm not insisting on anything but the possibility of the idea. I'm perfectly happy to agree with you on the improbability og the idea, all I'm saying it that it's possible. In any case, I consider the discussion closed.

Alright. It can't be proven to be definitely impossible, but in any case, nothing backs it up.

Unless you're a professional linguist and native Japanese speaker as my independant teacher is, I will choose to belive her over you.
If you want to keep arguing I can give you her phone number and you can take it up with her. I'm tired of arguing about something so trivial.

You know what? How about you go and ask your teacher if by default, you should spell words with 'L' or 'R' when romanizing them in Japanese. Just ask what the standard is, and if like you told me, the letter 'R' shouldn't be used to spell words. You can send me her answer by private message at a later time.

I checked in the manga, and it was the count who Guts killed before the flashback whose Beherit came from an eastern bazaar. I'm not sure if that was mentioned as the source of any of the other Beherits seen, but I'm not going to go though the manga checking.

Yes, as told by Vargas at the beginning of volume 2. No need to check the manga, because there's no other occurrence. Griffith's beherit, for instance, was just obtained from a fortune teller. My point being that there isn't much of a connexion. Especially since Berserk takes place in a fictional world.

 

[Ralwatt]

Well, an observation can very well be invalid actually. Let's just say that's your opinion and agree to disagree. We can talk about it again whenever more information is provided.

Alright. It can't be proven to be definitely impossible, but in any case, nothing backs it up.

You know what? How about you go and ask your teacher if by default, you should spell words with 'L' or 'R' when romanizing them in Japanese. Just ask what the standard is, and if like you told me, the letter 'R' shouldn't be used to spell words. You can send me her answer by private message at a later time.

Yes, as told by Vargas at the beginning of volume 2. No need to check the manga, because there's no other occurrence. Griffith's beherit, for instance, was just obtained from a fortune teller. My point being that there isn't much of a connexion. Especially since Berserk takes place in a fictional world.

I'm not talking about the 'standard' I'm talking about accurate transcription.
I can ask her your exact question but I don't see any point, let's just agree to disagree on it and save ourselves some time.
I'm not saying it's a strong link, just a reference.

 

[Aazealh]

I'm not talking about the 'standard' I'm talking about accurate transcription.

Accurate based on what standard?

I can ask her your exact question but I don't see any point, let's just agree to disagree on it and save ourselves some time.

It's up to you. I don't need a confirmation that I'm right.

 

[Guts intestines]

I wonder if that beherit is the one truly intended for Guts by destiny?

If it isn't, then it's not his to use in any case.

 

[nfries88]

I wonder if that beherit is the one truly intended for Guts by destiny?

If it isn't, then it's not his to use in any case.

There's no indication of it being intended for him at all. Vargas was able to hold onto the Snail Count's beherit for a long time, and only God knows how long that fortune teller had been in possession of Griffith's beherit. Guts might be serving the same purpose as Vargas or that fortune teller; a mere "carrier" that will inadvertently hand it over to the one it is intended for.

As for the person it is intended for, I have some guesses:
Isidro; who might use it unintentionally in a desperate situation. A highly unlikely scenario, but not entirely impossible.
Puck; he has already shown a strong fondness for "his becchi". It's also unlikely, although there is no evidence that an elf cannot become an apostle (sure, all known apostles would seem to have originally been human, but we have no reason to believe that being human is a prerequisite for the process), because Puck is so good-natured.
Farnese; although she has certainly improved she is still a weak character and might use it at some point out of desperation.
Magnifico; he gives me the feeling that he's a sniveling coward, so I could picture him using it to save himself
Skull Knight; he might eat it to make that space-ripping sword again in the future.

I can't think of anyone else who might use it at this point in time.

 

[Guts intestines]

I could definitely see Skull Knight as the most likely user, then maybe Magnifico, because as you said, he's is a freakin coward. Puck or Isidro not likely, but possibly hilarious and sad at the same time. Here's a baseless, farfetched "possibility" that I just pulled out my ass: what if the beast could somehow use that beherit to be born into the world in a corporeal body? But then again that'd require an incarnation ceremony and that just happened, ah well.

 

[Walter]

I could definitely see Skull Knight as the most likely user,

Huh? Are you saying he'd use it to summon the God Hand and sacrifice someone/thing? Or use it for the Yobimizu no Tsurugi?

 

[Guts intestines]

Huh? Are you saying he'd use it to summon the God Hand and sacrifice someone/thing? Or use it for the Yobimizu no Tsurugi?

Yeah, I meant that he'd swallow it for the Yobimizu no Tsurugi.

 

[Walter]

Here's a baseless, farfetched "possibility" that I just pulled out my ass: what if the beast could somehow use that beherit to be born into the world in a corporeal body? But then again that'd require an incarnation ceremony and that just happened, ah well.

Yep, every 1,000 years. But let's not be TOO dogmatic here. I mean, back before volume 18 came around, we didn't know about the possibility of that ceremony at all. Not that I think there's some kind of loophole - just that we don't know everything about these ceremonies (in fact, we know very little).

 

[Guts intestines]

I was just musing on the possibility that Griffith could be capable of disintigrating those of the material plane, not only those of hell, which is why I'd feel bad for Guts because it's not like he comes out of his battles unscathed. If all it takes for Griffith to disintigrate someone is one touch then that can be troublesome for Guts, but of course we know little of his powers as of now.

 

[Aazealh]

As for the person it is intended for, I have some guesses:
Isidro; who might use it unintentionally in a desperate situation. A highly unlikely scenario, but not entirely impossible.
Puck; he has already shown a strong fondness for "his becchi". It's also unlikely, although there is no evidence that an elf cannot become an apostle (sure, all known apostles would seem to have originally been human, but we have no reason to believe that being human is a prerequisite for the process), because Puck is so good-natured.
Farnese; although she has certainly improved she is still a weak character and might use it at some point out of desperation.
Magnifico; he gives me the feeling that he's a sniveling coward, so I could picture him using it to save himself

Personally I doubt anyone from Guts' group will ever get to use it. For example, Isidro looks to me like he has more than enough will not to do something of the sort, and Farnese seems too kind to sacrifice anyone. And while Magnifico could, I have trouble seeing what interest it'd present if he did. Now about Puck, honestly I'd just say it's straight impossible. The apostles, the God Hand, the Idea of Evil and the Vortex of Souls are all about mankind, and I'm quite certain that only humans can become apostles. That's what it's all about. Elves are astral creatures and on a totally different level. It's like comparing apples and oranges. And of course, it'd be completely ridiculous if something like that happened.

Here's a baseless, farfetched "possibility" that I just pulled out my ass: what if the beast could somehow use that beherit to be born into the world in a corporeal body? But then again that'd require an incarnation ceremony and that just happened, ah well.

Aside from that there are other problems. First off, an Incarnation ceremony isn't started by simply using a beherit. It's a convergence of many factors and it probably involves forces we have no idea of. It can't be compared to using a beherit to simply become an apostle. Second, as far as we know it only applies to members of the God Hand. Third, the Beast of Darkness isn't an actual being, simply a personification of Guts' dark side. It only exists inside of his mind, so if it were to be labelled it'd be as a "psychological" character. It isn't a spiritual entity that exists on its own.

 

[Guts intestines]

Aside from that there are other problems. First off, an Incarnation ceremony isn't started by simply using a beherit. It's a convergence of many factors and it probably involves forces we have no idea of. It can't be compared to using a beherit to simply become an apostle. Second, as far as we know it only applies to members of the God Hand. Third, the Beast of Darkness isn't an actual being, simply a personification of Guts' dark side. It only exists inside of his mind, so if it were to be labelled it'd be as a "psychological" character. It isn't a spiritual entity that exists on its own.

I wonder if its possible that since the Beast has shown the ability to manifest itself in the Berserker Armor that it could possibly have some type of ties to the astral realm that would make it more eligible for some type of incarnation, I just wonder ( a little of topic) if we'll ever see that huge dog in full form. Just imagine the possibilities if Guts is fighting Zodd and he transforms into his true apostle form, then the full form beast is unleashed and we get some crazy primal fight. But enough salivating.

 

[Aazealh]

I wonder if its possible that since the Beast has shown the ability to manifest itself in the Berserker Armor that it could possibly have some type of ties to the astral realm that would make it more eligible for some type of incarnation

The reason the armor looks like it is because its Od fuels Guts' rage in the first place, that's how it works. But it's not like the Beast of Darkness really comes alive through the armor or anything. It's still Guts in there.

 

[nfries88]

The reason the armor looks like it is because its Od fuels Guts' rage in the first place, that's how it works. But it's not like the Beast of Darkness really comes alive through the armor or anything. It's still Guts in there.

I wonder if perhaps the beast would use the beherit while it is "in control"? I may be remembering incorrectly, or there may have been an error in the translation I read; but hadn't the beast at one point "told" Guts to see Caska as just a sacrifice, or something like that? Of course, Caska can't be sacrificed because she has already been sacrificed once (a limitation known as of Vol. 3), so that would somewhat dull that relation.

 

[Aazealh]

I wonder if perhaps the beast would use the beherit while it is "in control"? I may be remembering incorrectly, or there may have been an error in the translation I read; but hadn't the beast at one point "told" Guts to see Casca as just a sacrifice, or something like that? Of course, Casca can't be sacrificed because she has already been sacrificed once (a limitation known as of Vol. 3), so that would somewhat dull that relation.

It's when Guts bit her breast in volume 23, the Beast of Darkness told him various stuff that basically amounted to "kill her". Just standard Beast of Darkness talk really, saying that nothing should prevent Guts from the only objective he should have: revenge against Griffith. But it's unlikely the Beast would drive him to use a beherit since a more direct course of action would be easier to take (simply killing everyone), which is basically what its latest threat was. Not to mention that like you said, he couldn't sacrifice Casca in any case.