Mass Effect 3 [Spoilers]

[Saephon]

Walter was right, the mission itself is just whatever but holy the dialog and info you get

There are some fantastic exchanges with the new squad member. And they almost exclusively happen outside the actual mission.

In other news, here's a fantastic interview with game industry writers about whether a developer should alter a game's ending due to fan feedback. Very cool to get opinions from people who work for LucasArts, TakeTwo, Obsidian, etc. Despite the title there are no actual Mass Effect spoilers, so anyone can read it safely.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/mass-effect-3-ending-what-do-game-writers-think/

 

[nomad]

There are some fantastic exchanges with the new squad member. And they almost exclusively happen outside the actual mission.

In other news, here's a fantastic interview with game industry writers about whether a developer should alter a game's ending due to fan feedback. Very cool to get opinions from people who work for LucasArts, TakeTwo, Obsidian, etc. Despite the title there are no actual Mass Effect spoilers, so anyone can read it safely.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/mass-effect-3-ending-what-do-game-writers-think/

Actually, there are slight spoilers on this link only for the sole purpose that it's narrating the general complaint of the gamers. If you haven't finished ME3 yet, stick to not reading anything relative to this issue until you are done.

And on that note. A lot of good points have been brought up, and I have to say the one I agree with the most is Chuck Jordan. I won't post his respond to avoid any kind of spoiler, but I urge those who have finished the game and are part of this entire train-wreck of drama to read. Even now that I have seen some of the flaws, I still am contempt with this ending. I can also agree with some and I do mean some of the complaints that people are dishing out, but in the end... I just don't want to see anyone re-writing anything.

 

[Oburi]

Well, I just finished and... I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. I'm more pissed off now that bioware is actually going to listen to the "fans" and change or add stuff or whatever. Just leave it alone, it's fine. I agree with Griff, it's really sad that so many people found it controversial. Bioware should be happy that the ending caused such a controversy and (as Shepard would say) own it, wear it like a badge of honor. Be proud of the ending. Don't let these so called fans control you Bioware! Guess I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Triple Life]

Personally, I felt like the ending was out of place and unsatisfying. When the credits started rolling, my first thought was, "Wait, that's it?" While I do think many of the people vocally opposed to the ending are taking it too far, ME3 would benefit from expanding the ending, which is what they're saying they're going to do. It's not a change so much as "clarification."

I have a few other minor complaints, but there's a spoiler embargo, so ... But overall, ME3 is a really great game that stumbled a bit over the finish line.

 

[Walter]

Just beat it.

Spoiler

Thought the ending was fine. Not bad at all, but probably not as good as Mass Effect deserves.

We can discuss specifics in a week, once more people have beaten it.

 

[Saephon]

To anyone who's now in the "beat it" club....There are some really interesting tidbits from Patrick Weekes, one of Bioware's writers. Do a google search for him and ME3, you'll find some insight into the writing process of ME3 and why the ending feels out of place to some fans. I seriously doubt it'll happen, but I want a post-mortem from someone perhaps a year from now. If you ignore the people who are exaggerating and making this thing personal, there are some damn valid discussions to be had.


Still seething about the journal though. They had ME2's journal template right there......whyyyyyyyyyy??

 

[nomad]

To anyone who's now in the "beat it" club....There are some really interesting tidbits from Patrick Weekes, one of Bioware's writers. Do a google search for him and ME3, you'll find some insight into the writing process of ME3 and why the ending feels out of place to some fans. I seriously doubt it'll happen, but I want a post-mortem from someone perhaps a year from now. If you ignore the people who are exaggerating and making this thing personal, there are some damn valid discussions to be had.


Still seething about the journal though. They had ME2's journal template right there......whyyyyyyyyyy??

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13251.msg208865#msg208865
Part 1 of discussion here. Enjoy!

 

[Aazealh]

I think you all should have held off on buying ME3; vital day 1 dlc is now going to be a permanent revenue source for EA.

I'm a pretty big Mass Effect fan. Bought the collector's edition for each game. Imported ME2 and 3 from the US so I'd have the original voices and not the French dub. Have all the artbooks, a hat, 2 tshirts, a hoodie, a framed lithograph, the soundtracks. Bought Mass Effect 1 on Steam even though I already had it on X360. Bought the first iPhone game even though I didn't have an iPhone. I don't buy a lot of DLC in general, but I'm more than happy to shell a few extra bucks for this particular series. I think it more than deserves it. You can do whatever you want, but don't tell other people what they should or shouldn't buy. Especially since ME2 had a very similar DLC scheme in place on day 1.

I'm really enjoying ME3 so far. I'm about 10 hours in, and I really must say... the $10 same-day DLC is fantastic. The mission itself is a worthless pile of garbage, but the character you get from it, and what they have to say about the universe is fascinating and well worth the $10. It absolutely should have been included in the main game. $10 is blackmail, considering the importance of the relevance of the content.

Spoiler

I didn't mind the mission itself, though it's not the most original one they've come up with. Still, definitely wouldn't call it a "worthless pile of garbage". The very location of it was interesting in and of itself. As for the character, it's nice enough and they made enough of an effort on it that it's hard to tell it's optional most of the time (but then again, half the crew is "optional" as well). Now as far as its importance to the game... I think you're exaggerating a bit. What it has to say is pretty interesting, but it's still mostly lore. So very interesting for fans, but not vital for the plot of the game.

That being said, I'm against the idea of making characters into separate DLC packages in general. It undermined Zaeed and Kasumi's importance in ME2 and here it comes across as a a bit of a cash grab. But to be honest as a buyer of the Collector's Edition I can't say I feel very concerned.

As for ME2 being a worthless chapter in the franchise, I agree to a certain extent. There are several character interactions you'd miss if you'd skipped over ME2. However I can't imagine anyone playing ME2 and then ME3. ME1 is far more relevant to ME3.

ME3 recenters itself on ME1's plot and events so that can make ME2 look like a bit of a side-story, but to call it "worthless" would be a pretty stupid exaggeration IMO, especially since ME3 is also largely based on ME2. ME2's flaws are those we always knew it had: the plot focused too much on recruiting new squadmates and gaining their loyalty and did not advance the Reapers aspect of things nearly enough (and most importantly: the Liara-gate). That prevented ME2 from attaining new heights, but it doesn't detract from the game's qualities. I'll cover that more in depth in a future post, but I think people get a little carried away in bashing ME2.

All I ever wanted to know about ME3 was if EA's March deadline was to blame for anything (I'm sure at least a couple things were affected.)

I'm sure there were budgetary, technical and time constraints.

The minor sidequests (scanning planets for trinkets)... ugh. It's an aspect they struggled through the whole trilogy, too bad it went from bad to worse. (Mako => scanning => errand scanning)

P.S. All they had to do was tighten the Mako controls a little, and add a little more variation to the planets. ME1's exploration was nearly perfect

I wouldn't say it got from bad to worse. I loved the Mako (irrationally so), but as someone who finished ME1 a dozen times, I'll admit those missions were a bit bland, and Bioware changed them because many people complained about them. The ressource scanning in ME2 wasn't a true replacement for them (which is why we eventually got the Hammerhead missions, which I thought were alright), but it was a neat enough mini-game, and we got more varied side missions to replace the in-base aspect.

Spoiler

I enjoyed the scanning for what it was, but I can't deny that it felt like a time sink in the end. So ME3's streamlining did not bother me. It's the same thing, but seriously shortened. Do we lose something significant because of it? Honestly I don't think so. It's one of these cases where while I was perfectly fine with the ME2 system, I think the change in ME3 was an improvement. Not to mention that it's more consistent with the Reaper evasion aspect, mining usually taking quite a while. Doesn't mean I didn't miss the vehicle based missions though.

I'm really looking forward to Aaz's review since he's played ME like a dozen of times, appreciates ME2 while acknowledging its shortcomings, and will feel more strongly about this than I do one way or another. His take is going to be a telling barometer.

Oh boy, the pressure! I'll have a post up soon enough then (next week I guess). Will probably talk about the series in its entirety.

Still seething about the journal though. They had ME2's journal template right there......whyyyyyyyyyy??

Spoiler

Did you have a big problem with the journal? Only thing that was missing was a token to indicate whether you had acquired a desired resource or not. Sometimes it was indicated but oftentimes not.

 

[seppuku]

I'm a pretty big Mass Effect fan. Bought the collector's edition for each game. Imported ME2 and 3 from the US so I'd have the original voices and not the French dub. Have all the artbooks, a hat, 2 tshirts, a hoodie, a framed lithograph, the soundtracks. Bought Mass Effect 1 on Steam even though I already had it on X360. Bought the first iPhone game even though I didn't have an iPhone. I don't buy a lot of DLC in general, but I'm more than happy to shell a few extra bucks for this particular series. I think it more than deserves it. You can do whatever you want, but don't tell other people what they should or shouldn't buy. Especially since ME2 had a very similar DLC scheme in place on day 1.

I bought ME2 and the Zaeed day 1 dlc was free for everyone who bought a new copy; that's a big difference. Had they stayed with that same scheme, I wouldn't have had any complaints about it.

Obviously I can't force people's purchasing decisions, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the impact. If someone thought the dlc was unfair, and many of us did, he shouldn't give in to the pricing scheme. That's because EA will do it for other franchises if it's profitable enough, including franchises you might not consider worth the extra cost. It's especially easy to hold off since EA is so quick to offer a better deal.

However, my comment was directed at people who were buying the standard edition without the extra character included. People who buy collector's editions want to pay more to get more ASAP. In that regard, EA absolutely delivered.

 

[Aazealh]

I bought ME2 and the Zaeed day 1 dlc was free for everyone who bought a new copy; that's a big difference.

There was other content (Collectors armor & weapon) that was free with the Collectors' Edition but available for purchase separately for other people. Not the same thing, but it's the same overall principle.

Obviously I can't force people's purchasing decisions, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the impact. If someone thought the dlc was unfair, and many of us did, he shouldn't give in to the pricing scheme.

Like I said you're free to do whatever you want, but so are others. They can buy all the DLC in the world if they want to.

 

[Proj2501]

Finished.

I think I will talk about the bad before I talk about the good. I have plenty to say about both. But I think it'll do me good to vent first.

Spoiler

1. The make-up of this game's squad was SORELY lacking. Had I not had Javik, the next most interesting squad mate would have been Liara and that's only because I wanted to f*** her again. We had such a rich selection in ME2.

2. It's a shame a Prothean is considered a non-essential character to the plot. I felt compelled to take him on almost every mission. "Oh you've been in cryo for thousands of years because of those dildo Reapers. Let's get you some payback!" He provided history, edgy dialogue, etc. But HE'S DLC and James is standard.

3. Subtlety with regards to homosexuality.

4. Kai-Leng's ultra cheesy death scene. "We beat that asshole ninja. Lemme just take a sit here. What? No, I'm cool. You guys admire the frickin' view annnnnnnnnd take that you sunvabitch."

5. 0 fucking mention of your squad mates lost while trying to make it to the beam. NOTHING. I would have settled for Shep looking at their corpses for less than 2 seconds. I'd settle for him just saying their names during his Metal Gear Solid 4 slow walk. Nothing. Come on.

6. Not enough Reaper fights.

7. I didn't see any proof of my efforts. I rallied all those different races. Yeah? Where were they?

8. Why did ME2 feel bigger, is that just me?!

9. That gay IGN Jessia Chobot lady. If I play through again, I will try and kick her out the airlock. What bull that was.

10. The atmosphere on the Citadel felt so wrong and I'm sorry, but a few lines of dialogue ("Oh people have fun to forget") is a cheap way out.

11. Harbinger? OOOOO THAT GUY!

There's more I'm not recalling at the moment, but that's enough for now.

What I liked.

Spoiler

1. Certain character sacrifices. All of them actually. I thought it made sense and found myself moved by those scenes. Mordin going out like a boss, Legion being awesome. Thane being Thane. Great stuff.

2. The right use of the song 'Vigil'. Period.

3. Having some form of interaction with my former squad mates. Bittersweet though. I wanted Jack back on my ship.

4. Edi. Excellent idea from start to finish. Not terribly original but well done.

5. Multiplayer is a hoot.

6. I enjoyed time spent with Legion a great deal. Gameplay-wise, no. I liked what I was learning though.

Overall I like ME1 followed by ME2 and lastly, ME3. In that order. ME3's ending

Spoiler

while not the controversy fags are making it out to be closes the book on the universe in a way.

That makes me sad.

I'm happy I can talk with you guys about it, for better or worse.

 

[Oburi]

It's hard for me to choose what order I liked the games in. I try to see the series as a whole and I enjoyed all three games (more than most people it seems). Each one has it's own pros and cons, but overall I would play the entire thing all over again start to finish if I had the time. I feel like I could play Mass Effect 3 for another 45 hours and not be bored. It just never gets old.

The first one is still my favorite obviously.

 

[Griffith]

I have to say, I really didn't have a big problem with a lot of issues you did, Proj, but acknowledge them. Conversely, I also didn't really care for/about some of the things you enjoyed.

Spoiler

1. Agreed, more would have been more. 2. Yeah. 4. I was happy any way Kai Leng died. 5. I didn't mind it. That stuff gets to be a bit cheesy in itself and I was glad the moment was left to the user. For analogy, it's like when a sports announcer shuts up after a big moment and lets the imagery speak for itself. A lot of melodrama about it would have taken me out of the context of the scene. 6. Yep. Again, more would have been more. But not another destroyer, please! 7. I believe the cutscene of the fleets is different depending on who you recruit, but you're right that it's mostly just taken for granted (I'm more bummed by lack of Fallout-style galaxy updates after the game, e.g. "The cured Krogan, lead by Wrex, became powerful but well respected" or "The cured Krogan, led by Wreav, became total fucking assholes!" etc.). 8. I'd agree, but that might be because I never came close to being motivated to doing most of it beyond the main plot. 10. Yeah, that's a problem inherited from ME2. Hasn't felt like a "real" environment since ME. 11. For some reason I loved Harbinger's cameo. He said more than enough in the last game; the time for talk was OVER. =)

I didn't really care about former squad-mates, since most of mine were dead. Instead I mostly got to experience the alternative and see who took their role in the story, which was interesting, but not emotionally engaging. I didn't think EDI was so great either, fun, but also sort of embarrassing from a certain perspective.

It's hard for me to choose what order I liked the games in. I try to see the series as a whole and I enjoyed all three games (more than most people it seems).

Not me, ME, ME3, ME2. Though, that's purely based on my subjective experience, I've come to appreciate ME2 on its own merits since it might actually be the most polished game in the series. It kind of reminds me of Fallout 2 in its breadth and depth, except I was so turned off by the direction they took the story I never got into its world the same way (upon replay in its proper context it may become a favorite in its own right). I think I already mentioned this, but ME3 makes 2 seem better in context for being the different one. ME3 is derivative of both 1 and 2, and it makes ME2's radical changes stand out as unique since ME3 didn't undo them. Anyway, depending on your criteria you could rank them best/worst in any order really (only way ME1 doesn't come out on top is on pure mechanics, like if you give a shit about combat engines or multilayer). ME3 is the most streamlined, or stripped down depending on how you look at it. I don't know, to me it's kind of a good metaphor for itself; not always pretty, but it got the job done. =)

I feel like I could play Mass Effect 3 for another 45 hours and not be bored. It just never gets old.

I'd say the same, except I'm literally out of things to do, which never happened to me in the other games. Then again, I wasn't as motivated to do everything.

 

[Oburi]

I didn't really care about former squad-mates, since most of mine were dead. ganishka Instead I mostly got to experience the alternative and see who took their role in the story, which was interesting, but not emotionally engaging. I didn't think EDI was so great either, fun, but also sort of embarrassing from a certain perspective.

Most of yours were dead? In the suicide mission or something? Man, I can see that ruining a lot of otherwise emotional and powerful moments if you lost squad mates in previous games. Some of my favorite parts of both MA2 and 3 had to do with stuff that carried over from my imported game. Or more generic moments like cutscenes with older characters reminiscing or talking about the old days and stuff like that. Mass Effect 3 did have a decent amount of those moments, some of which I really wasn't expecting, but I really enjoyed.

Idk, I did have a few issues but overall I reaaaally enjoyed it. I'll wait to go into more detail until everyone had a chance to finish but I thoroughly enjoyed the whole series. With all the crap I read online I'm wondering if I was playing the same game as everyone else. I'm glad to know that at least a few members here didn't hate the ending and enjoyed most of the game. I know I tend to get caught up in the moment and think whatever I'm playing/watching/reading at that time is so much better than it really is, and only in retrospect do I find fault (*ahem* Walking Dead) but I don't see that happening with Mass Effect.

 

[Griffith]

Most of yours were dead? In the suicide mission or something?

Yeah,

Spoiler

Wrex on Virmire

, and the rest on the suicide mission because I didn't like the whole loyalty/ship enhancement BS and just didn't like the direction of ME2. Here's the thing though, I could have reloaded and saved everyone before loading my Shepard to ME3, but my philosophy was "what happens happens" and deal with the consequences, so I'd have my own unique play-through experience because I didn't worry about getting certain desirable outcomes. Same thing with Paragon or Renegade choices, I never leaned either way, or tried to have a Paragon or Renegade character, but just did what I felt like in the moment.

Man, I can see that ruining a lot of otherwise emotional and powerful moments if you lost squad mates in previous games. Some of my favorite parts of both MA2 and 3 had to do with stuff that carried over from my imported game.

Well, I still got that, I just experienced the other side of it, and the one's that did survive obviously meant more because of it.

Spoiler

Also, I wouldn't trade my experience of Wrex's death for anything, it's what completely hooked me on the series, frankly.

And hey, it's not like you got to have him in your squad anyway.

(now there's something worthwhile to petition for instead of some useless alternate ending to bitch more about)

 

[nomad]

The entire experience for me was a rollercoaster.

Spoiler

My complete hatred towards the intro of the game almost made me not even try the game. My biggest concern was the initial shot of Shepard staring at a window, gave it a sour taste in my mouth. And even with "The Arrival" DLC, I'd wish I didn't get to see Shepard with the "nobody believes me blues". In my eyes, I was under the impression that Shepard would be a bit more theral about his interactions with pretty much everyone trying to achieve preparations. It's no biggie, and I see ways to this to be a decent reason, but somehow it just raised an emotional red flag for me. I care less about the actual gameplay for this one. I'm in it for the story, however I admit that I missed the exploration of ME1 and 2 (I'm not a fan of Mako missions but, it felt empty just scanning planets and running away from Reapers....It was fitting story wise given the circumstances, but this was another minor personal ordeal).

The Story:

Spoiler

It was pretty obvious where this was going to go. But what sealed the deal for the speculation, was Liara's universal time capsule. Once I saw that scene (If I actually felt attached to her romantically, it would've been a nice plus to the relationship "experience") I was convinced that Shepard wasn't going to finish this alive. I really don't have much complaints about the story as a whole. We got to solve most of the issues that we've been hearing and dealing about from the beginning. And even if it was all sudden and fast, I like the fact that we as players were able to be the core of the solutions (for better or worst pending on our history and decisions). There are moments in the game that made me emotional. I won't lie, I got mooshy. Mordin's death made me extremely sad for a moment, but I gave Bioware the thumbs-up for giving him a death that was both emotional and well placed. Thane's death was the proof I needed to admit that I did in fact had some emotional attachment for most of the crew in ME2. But I think my most favorite part, had to be Shepard's argument with Joker. Some lines were poorly delivered from my male Shepard, but I felt relief that Shepard show that he himself was starting to feel overwhelmed with everything. Loosing his goal because of Cerberus and not winning every single mission gave me that real element that I needed to see.

The ending?

Spoiler

I liked. It's by far the size that I would have wanted in general... And I would've preferred seeing Liara's time capsule and Diana Aller's footage of Shepard's opinions in general in a nice emotional montage (and at least giving Jessica Chobot ONE purpose for having her in the game in the first place.) that could've possibly made a things a bit more smoother for those of us that are sad about everything being over. Call me crazy, but I loved the idea that the Citadel was housing the very thing that was controling the Reapers the entire time gave it a nice tangy taste. EDI's origin and the use of Cerberus as a sub-plot were nicely delivered.

Romance:

Spoiler

I myself became attached to a lot of characters, but I felt cheated that I couldn't have my love interest (Miranda) at all. And before we start thinking that I'm talking about a lack of sex scene, I'll go ahead and say that's not it. I chose her because she was the one that revives Shepard. And according to the codex she was second in command in Cerberus. Cold hearted and sharp around the edges made me invest in her and see where this was going to go. I saw a lot of potential for a nice love story for the 2 of them, but instead... I get a quickie in a citadel motel room and a hologram to which I didn't even get to express my feelings to her. No "I love you" no nothing. There was somewhat of a closure.... But not nearly enough to be satisfied with. And I speak for those who were also involved with others (Jack as an example)... I mean...Shit, I didn't even get to see them kiss. Oh well.

In the end, I'm still against this stupid petition drama. Besides all the things that we've said, we all have to wonder if Bioware does "give in"... What big of an impact will this be for gaming developers in the future? It wasn't until now that when there was a "bad ending" in a game tittle that we love and we just had to suck it up in hoped that the next installment will make up for it. In conclusion, a toast... To Mass Effect Trilogy. You were not the perfect game, you had many flaws.... But somehow we stayed attached to you and your characters. It was a nice run.

 

[Oburi]

Yeah,

Spoiler

Wrex on Virmire

, and the rest on the suicide mission because I didn't like the whole loyalty/ship enhancement BS and just didn't like the direction of ME2. Here's the thing though, I could have reloaded and saved everyone before loading my Shepard to ME3, but my philosophy was "what happens happens" and deal with the consequences, so I'd have my own unique play-through experience because I didn't worry about getting certain desirable outcomes. Same thing with Paragon or Renegade choices, I never leaned either way, or tried to have a Paragon or Renegade character, but just did what I felt like in the moment.

Yea I agree with that totally. Thats my philosophy as well only I didn't let anyone die in my games. Not even accidentally. I never reloaded either. In fact i didn't know your squad could die in 2 until I started reading about it. But it's cool that we played such different games in that way. I can see the stuff with Wrex being pretty cool either way. Just like Ashley and Kaiden. That's the part that hooked me in the first game. One of those "did that really happen" moments.

 

[Saephon]

With all the crap I read online I'm wondering if I was playing the same game as everyone else. I'm glad to know that at least a few members here didn't hate the ending and enjoyed most of the game.

I have to wonder what kinds of opinions you're reading online. This is going to be a long haha. From my experience, most people

Spoiler

loved 99% of the game, and felt that just the last 10 minutes seemed out of place and full of odd turns that did not mesh with the previous 30 hours of story. ME3 made me more emotional than the first two, I think, with things like the curing of the Genophage, Thane, and Legion. It's BECAUSE the game was so damn good up until Anderson's death that the sudden strangeness and lack of closure bothers people.

There are so many plotholes, it prevents me from being at peace. If the Citadel was part of the Catalyst, why did Sovereign need to activate the Conduit on Illos? Couldn't that kid just get the Reapers in himself? Why was the Normandy fleeing with everyone aboard, abandoning me to the final battle? Why were my squadmates on that last planet when I just saw them get destroyed by Harbinger's laser?

But even if you can answer all those questions for me, the biggest regret I have is that all three of the choices I was given at the end would have been rejected by my Commander Shepard. Control was The Illusive Man's solution; Synthesis was Saren's; only Destroy was somewhat reasonable, but I did not want to commit genocide to the Geth just to do it. Plus all the Mass Relays are gone no matter what. So...what happens to all the species now on Earth? Do they starve, or fly away with their normal FTL ships hoping to find somewhere habitable?

I didn't feel like a hero when I was forced to make that final choice. When told that the organics vs synthetics battle was inevitable, my Shepard would have pointed towards my ending of the Geth/Quarian struggle, and told the kid to suck it. He would have preferred to reject those choices and let the Galactic species go down fighting valiantly. But that's just me

As I've said many times on various places on the internet, I respect and envy those who find no faults with the game. The loudest people right now are surely the most disrespectful, but I assure you they are making it harder for those of us who wish to constructively criticize ME3 without making silly demands of Bioware. I would love for someone to convince me that I'm wrong about the things that bother me, but so far I just find more and more reasons to feel kind of put-off.


One last thing, and it relates to Sovereign's amazing speech in ME1. I still get chills when I see that scene. Remember how he told us we could not comprehend the Reapers' purpose? And then in ME3

Spoiler

the other Reaper we talk to says the same thing? Why did it take the Catalyst Kid 3 minutes to pretty clearly explain their motivations? That really annoyed me. Are the Reapers just AI that are full of shit and arrogant and don't even understand their own reason for being? Because Sovereign at least seemed to think that we were insignificant beings that deserved destruction. Then the StarKidThing says that they actually use synthetics to kill organics so that synthetics won't kill organics..... Just doesn't sit well with me.

Okay, time to finally try this multiplayer thing!

 

[Aazealh]

Hey guys, aren't we supposed to still be holding out on spoilers?

 

[hellrasinbrasin]

Some folks just want to break rank and file. Might as well as ask members who want to be chatty about
the game to park themselves in the chat room until Sunday. That way at least the thread can be cleared
of any potential and unintentional spoilers. Doing that would ensure that the no-Spoiler embargo is not
broken. Well its an idea anyway but it might be a mute point as the balls really in the mods/admin court.

 

[Aazealh]

Well there's no need to restrain ourselves if everybody wants to speak about it. I mean I personally don't mind, but it could have waited a week longer. I'll certainly wait at least a few more days to give my own review. But since I'm not going to delete the posts, might as well respond to them.

No, needless to say, huge spoilers for the ending ahead:

Spoiler

1. The make-up of this game's squad was SORELY lacking. Had I not had Javik, the next most interesting squad mate would have been Liara and that's only because I wanted to f*** her again. We had such a rich selection in ME2.

Spoiler

Liara is the best squadmate in every game, even when she's not featured.

Spoiler

2. It's a shame a Prothean is considered a non-essential character to the plot. I felt compelled to take him on almost every mission. "Oh you've been in cryo for thousands of years because of those dildo Reapers. Let's get you some payback!" He provided history, edgy dialogue, etc. But HE'S DLC and James is standard.

Spoiler

I liked Javik, but I did a few main missions with him VS with another character and to be perfectly objective I didn't always favor the run where I took him. He is a very interesting character and an awesome squadmate though, no contest.

Spoiler

3. Subtlety with regards to homosexuality.

Spoiler

Hahaha, yeah... It felt like they went a bit overboard to compensate for the relative lack of homosexual romance options in the previous games (I say relative because FemShep & Liara counts as a lesbian romance to me). I didn't mind Cortez as a character but I felt that his aspect as a love interest was hamfisted (saw it coming a mile away), and early on they hammer you with the comm chick's "sexy female voice", Stevy's heavy heart and fucking Kaidan who's apparently bisexual now. Felt odd to me because it all came at once and in Kaidan's case was pretty awkward. I'd have preferred more finesse in how they handled everything, and that includes the other romantic relationships (more on that in a later post).

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4. Kai-Leng's ultra cheesy death scene. "We beat that asshole ninja. Lemme just take a sit here. What? No, I'm cool. You guys admire the frickin' view annnnnnnnnd take that you sunvabitch."

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Hahaha, I don't know, I kinda liked it. Yeah it's cheesy, sure, but come on it was nice to see Shepard stab the fucker with his high-tech omniblade, wasn't it?

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5. 0 fucking mention of your squad mates lost while trying to make it to the beam. NOTHING. I would have settled for Shep looking at their corpses for less than 2 seconds.

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Well I did look for them myself... Didn't see them (obviously). The choice was yours.

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6. Not enough Reaper fights.

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Then again, I wouldn't have wanted Shepard to just down Reaper after Reaper, it would have been silly. Especially a big one, since they're practically invincible (when you see all of what it took to kill Sovereign...).

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7. I didn't see any proof of my efforts. I rallied all those different races. Yeah? Where were they?

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Hmm, we do get some shots that may vary depending on your choices during the final assault, but I agree they could have been more expansive.

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9. That gay IGN Jessia Chobot lady. If I play through again, I will try and kick her out the airlock. What bull that was.

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To be honest I didn't really mind her. Not the greatest addition to the game, but she didn't get on my nerves either.

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10. The atmosphere on the Citadel felt so wrong and I'm sorry, but a few lines of dialogue ("Oh people have fun to forget") is a cheap way out.

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Didn't bother me too much. I can see how it'd happen. Historically there were always people to party even in dire times. And the post-attack Citadel was more somber. Not to mention the hospial and refugee camp. Of course the Citadel's eternal problem (shared with Omega) is that it's way too small in-game compared to what it's supposed to be. Technical limitations...

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11. Harbinger? OOOOO THAT GUY!

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Yeah I'd have liked to see more of him. Not have him be super prominent, but something. That being said, like Griff I appreciate the fact that the time for talk is over. It was alright when they were still far away. Now he's not interested anymore. Just blasts you and off he goes.

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2. The right use of the song 'Vigil'. Period.

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Best track ever.

ME3's ending

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while not the controversy fags are making it out to be closes the book on the universe in a way.

That makes me sad.

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Who knows. They could get around that in no time. "With the technological work done on the Crucible and recent Reaper tech discoveries, the different Council races were able to rebuild a number of key relays quickly enough that travel in the galaxy became possible again. Additionally, new FTL drives based on the Reapers' were developed, making travel without relays possible between close systems." There, done. Have Mass Effect IV take place hundreds of years later and you're good to go.

If the Citadel was part of the Catalyst, why did Sovereign need to activate the Conduit on Illos? Couldn't that kid just get the Reapers in himself?[/spoiler]

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Yeah, I'll agree that this doesn't sit right with me either. There are a few plotholes that I'm not very happy with, including in the last sequence of ME3. I'll detail these in a later post.

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Why was the Normandy fleeing with everyone aboard, abandoning me to the final battle? Why were my squadmates on that last planet when I just saw them get destroyed by Harbinger's laser?

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You don't actually see your squadmates being decimated. They're not shown in the final run towards the beam. They were likely behind you or something. As for why they're on the Normandy, I'm sure that'll be addressed in the "Epilogue DLC" Bioware is preparing.

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But even if you can answer all those questions for me, the biggest regret I have is that all three of the choices I was given at the end would have been rejected by my Commander Shepard. Control was The Illusive Man's solution; Synthesis was Saren's; only Destroy was somewhat reasonable, but I did not want to commit genocide to the Geth just to do it. Plus all the Mass Relays are gone no matter what. So...what happens to all the species now on Earth? Do they starve, or fly away with their normal FTL ships hoping to find somewhere habitable?

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I'm sorry but that's bullshit. You're not viewing this properly. Your Shepard was given a lot of choices in these 3 games, but they weren't always EXACTLY what you'd have wanted. How many times would I have preferred another solution to what I was proposed? But that's how life is: you don't always get to choose. I didn't want Mordin to die, and I wanted to hold the line for the Rachni queen while Aralakh company saved their asses. But I wasn't able to. Just like I wasn't able to stop Kai Leng on Thessia. I could list things for hours here, and I'm not exaggerating.

In Mass Effect you never have total control over what happens. When Shepard first punched that reporter in ME1, the option given wasn't "punch the bitch". That's why it was hilarious, because he almost overacted when the player chose. Anyway, it's the same thing here. You don't have the choice, and Shepard doesn't either. Letting the galactic fleet die fighting while Shepard doesn't do anything? That's ridiculous. That's one thing Shepard would have never done. Not my Shepard and not yours either, whether you like it or not. And yeah I also didn't want the Geth (and EDI) to die, but again you don't always get what you want in life. Besides, you're making a pretty big assumption here: that what the Idea of Evil (since that's basically what the "kid"-creature is) tells you is completely genuine.

I for one didn't trust it at all (tried to shoot it right away ), and when it told me that destroying the Reapers would not accomplish anything because it would happen again, I liked Shepard's "maybe...". Maybe or maybe not, as proven by the Geth and EDI. And in the same way, I don't necessarily buy that creature's assertion that it'll kill every synthetic. Of course in the context it's not extremely likely that it was unreliable/treacherous, but that's how I choose to view it anyway. Geth are not like Reapers. They're synthetic but it's not enough for them to be obligatorily killed by the same energy wave (nor were they necessarily all within range, given the Perseus Veil's location). And it's even more so with EDI (despite the fact that in the "destroy" ending she doesn't appear alongside Joker on the unknown jungle planet, but that's not proof she died either). Lastly, the kid tells Shepard that "even you are part synthetic", which I saw at the time as a clear hint that choosing to destroy would kill me as well (turns out it didn't).

I know what Walter chose for the ending: the Synthesis option, and I know why he did. That's the option I chose in Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2. But you know what? I didn't trust that creature. And it pushed me to choose Synthesis, so I didn't just for that reason. Shepard's been fighting the Reapers for so long, and sacrificed so much, that anything other than destruction was not going to cut it. Control? Synthesis? Pretty much the same deal. Wrapped in uncertainty as to what the outcome would be. No thanks.

As for what happens without the Mass Relays... Well yeah, that's a big deal. But we knew there would be casualties. What matters is that most of the galaxy's species will survive. Whether some will manage to reunite using FTL drives, or eventually mass relays can be recreated (or an alternative can be invented) and such is the kind of details that I don't mind being left up to the player's imagination. And again, it might be addressed in the epilogue.

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When told that the organics vs synthetics battle was inevitable, my Shepard would have pointed towards my ending of the Geth/Quarian struggle, and told the kid to suck it.

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I'll agree that it was odd for Shepard not to mention that, or again, even the fact that EDI's a human-lover. But those are facts that depend on what the player chooses, so they most likely left it unaddressed for that reason. Plus we do know that the Geth/Quarian conflict was a big deal, and that such conflicts happened in every cycle, independently of the Reapers. The truce might not have been eternal, even though it's painted in a light that makes the Quarians the main culprits. But again, Shepard answered with a simple "maybe" that satisfied me. He was exhausted, seriously wounded and talking to a being that's pretty much God, so along with the fact the situation was dire and required for immediate action, I can understand him not arguing too much.

One last thing, and it relates to Sovereign's amazing speech in ME1. I still get chills when I see that scene. Remember how he told us we could not comprehend the Reapers' purpose? And then in ME3

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the other Reaper we talk to says the same thing? Why did it take the Catalyst Kid 3 minutes to pretty clearly explain their motivations? That really annoyed me. Are the Reapers just AI that are full of shit and arrogant and don't even understand their own reason for being? Because Sovereign at least seemed to think that we were insignificant beings that deserved destruction.

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Well the Reapers are certainly arrogant, and I imagine that they wouldn't want to tell insignificant beings who oppose them what their exact goal is. But yeah, the reason for it all certainly felt unfulfilling to me. It simply being the "organics vs synthetics" aspect was way too simple, not profound enough. Yet at the same time, it's been at the core of Mass Effect's story from the very beginning. The original game was all about fighting the Geth, rogue AIs and such.

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Then the StarKidThing says that they actually use synthetics to kill organics so that synthetics won't kill organics.....

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That's not what it says. Don't let yourself be influenced by all the idiots out there and give it some proper thought. The Reapers bring salvation through destruction: they assimilate a race to give it a new form, that of a Reaper. Then the entire race becomes a single being (note that this is also what the Geth were attempting when the Quarians attacked). It's not the same as total destruction, with nothing left behind but ruins. Now I'll agree that it's not much better than actual destruction, and Shepard tells the kid as much. Which is why I see the kid as my enemy, and why I rejected the Synthesis option. The Reapers are already a form of Synthesis. Constructs that embody entire organic races but are synthetic in form. Yet they're also enslaved for some reason, controlled by the kid.

Which brings me back to the fact that it would be wrong to think that final choice does not carry any moral value and basically doesn't matter. Each Reaper is a sort of culmination of a race, when you view it their (or the kid's) way. So each time you kill a Reaper, you commit genocide, just like killing the Geth would do. "But they're evil!" you might say. Well according to the kid he's controlling them, much like the Reapers controlled the Geth. So maybe they're not inherently evil? Maybe under Shepard's command they could be their "natural" selves and be a force of mostly good in the galaxy? Who's to say? The Citadel isn't destroyed in the "Control" ending, it just closes itself. How long would it take an army of Reapers to rebuild the mass relays? Yeah. Each of these outcomes, despite being mostly left up to our imagination, carries its heavy weight of consequences.

All in all, there are holes in what we're presented, but the Reaper cycle itself isn't completely senseless.

 

[Griffith]

Well, I don't know if my thoughts are going to make you or anyone feel better, Saephon, but here it goes...

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It's BECAUSE the game was so damn good up until Anderson's death that the sudden strangeness and lack of closure bothers people.

I disagree that the rest of the game was so flawless, and that goes for ME2 as well. The notion that there was some huge difference in quality of the ending and the rest of the series is revisionist history exaggerating both the deficiencies of the ending and the infallibility of the rest of it. I don't think the ending is out of place for post-ME2 Mass Effect at all. It's pretty consistent with the writing in ME2 and the rest of 3, it's just that's not enough to live up the expectations of culminating the entire series, particularly the potential of ME1, even if the writing has been consistent since (consistently not as good =). I'm not sure it's possible to create an ending that satisfyingly encompasses 100 hours of multifaceted storytelling in 10 minutes without feeling a bit empty no matter what they did, but I think they really tried to make it grand and profound, they just didn't have the goods. In retrospect, something straight forward and heroic like the end of ME1 might have made people much happier for lack of answers, or at least less upset. In any case, I didn't go into the ending expecting it to be totally satisfying to begin with, mainly because BioWare never had an answer in mind for the big question, "WHY?" It was obvious from the conversation with

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Vigil

where he basically says, "What does it matter?"

Also, I really don't get the supposed lack of closure

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and malaise over the choices. You deal with the Reapers, decide the fate of Earth and the galaxy, and control the life or death of Shepard. That pretty much covers all the basics. This goes double for the idea that the choices all amounted to the same thing. To me there's so many options it's odd that people weren't satisfied through one of the possible variations. My initial thought after beating it, before I knew there was a controversy, was that you could pretty much choose the ending you wanted... within reason (we see now how the fans treat that =).

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There are so many plotholes, it prevents me from being at peace. If the Citadel was part of the Catalyst, why did Sovereign need to activate the Conduit on Illos? Couldn't that kid just get the Reapers in himself?

I guess not? And since the nature of all this is totally vague and mysterious, it's not like these are concrete plotholes that demand explanation anyway. I'm not saying they're not there, but I don't think they should keep anyone up at night.

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Why was the Normandy fleeing with everyone aboard, abandoning me to the final battle? Why were my squadmates on that last planet when I just saw them get destroyed by Harbinger's laser?

Yeah, that was awkward, but you're assuming the worst.

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There was delay between when the Crucible first went off and when the Mass Effect relays were destroyed, when it would have made sense to flee the initial big bright explosion. Yeah, still an awkward transition, but not fatally so, not like they just randomly split.

I mean, if you got to the end, you're already overlooking so much it's strange to hold it to a different standard. Why did the human reaper look human and the rest look like squids or a leaf insect nymph? Why did a whole freakin' game focus on Cerberus? How could all these advanced civilizations never have studied/understood the nature of the Citadel and especially the keepers ("oh, they mysteriously maintain our capital, which is not curious at all, durr")? Basically, everything having to do the Reapers/Collectors/the cycle has been a lot of cool mumbo jumbo from the beginning (and stopped being consistent around the time ME2 came out). Why would that suddenly be any different at the end? I mean, they tried to make it into a more intellectual sci-fi explanation, and that probably just made it worse.

I'm more bothered by symbolic inconsistencies since that's really what the ending was about

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, like why was the Illusive Man aligned with Paragon color/choice and Anderson Renegade (indoctrination theories aside)? Or the kid representing the all-powerful god-like being, which was off the shelf from sci-fi 101. I might have preferred other options, like someone from Shepard's past, perhaps whoever died on Virmire between Ashley and Kaiden, or maybe your love interest in ME3 if they were made to die on the final mission (how awesome would Liara have been as the avatar of the Catalyst?). Best of all though would have been the return of Sovereign himself, "WE DO NOT END, SHEPARD!" But that's a dream. =)

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But even if you can answer all those questions for me, the biggest regret I have is that all three of the choices I was given at the end would have been rejected by my Commander Shepard.

This complaint might perturb me the most. One could say that about ANY of the choices in Mass Effect. It's totally arbitrary, and again, the limited control over a range of Shepard's actions is consistent with the rest of the series. The supposed violation of the series' extensive free choice is a lie, and the notion that everyone's Shepard is a unique snowflake they have autonomy over was a fallacy to begin with. Despite advertising to the contrary, Shepard's a character, not a silent protagonist for the player to replace with themselves.

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Control was The Illusive Man's solution; Synthesis was Saren's

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I wouldn't give ownership of Synthesis to Saren based on some desperate remarks he made in ME1 that are generally related (though it's a nice connection, and it supports the indoctrination theory). If anything, that ending belongs more to Star Trek: The Motion Picture and the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 5. But, I don't think these choices belong to those characters as opposed to Shepard. It's not like the idea of destroying the Reaper's was the property of Anderson more than Shepard. On the contrary, they were the symbols for Shepard's own thoughts.

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only Destroy was somewhat reasonable

As far as I'm concerned, that's the REAL ending!

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The others are just alternatives for the sake of people that like BS alternatives (and they still weren't happy). That could have been the only choice and it would have felt right in my book. BTW, guilt free version: let the Quarians wipe out the Geth and take EDI on the final mission. =)

As I've said many times on various places on the internet, I respect and envy those who find no faults with the game.

Again, I think it's more that you're overlooking the faults of the game overall and holding the ending to a higher standard.

One last thing, and it relates to Sovereign's amazing speech in ME1. I still get chills when I see that scene. Remember how he told us we could not comprehend the Reapers' purpose? And then in ME3

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the other Reaper we talk to says the same thing? Why did it take the Catalyst Kid 3 minutes to pretty clearly explain their motivations? That really annoyed me. Are the Reapers just AI that are full of shit and arrogant and don't even understand their own reason for being? Because Sovereign at least seemed to think that we were insignificant beings that deserved destruction. Then the StarKidThing says that they actually use synthetics to kill organics so that synthetics won't kill organics..... Just doesn't sit well with me.

So, when they said their motives were incomprehensible, you didn't expect they meant incomprehensibly stupid?

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Like Aaz said, it makes more sense than people are giving it credit... kind of, in a twisted, evil robot logic sense. Still, it's clunky and unsatisfying, and I wish they would have played up more of the CHAOS versus ORDER angle, and particularly the series-long theme of alienation among species and how we're all going to wipe each other out randomly without a trace if they don't "preserve" us this way instead. REAPERS: GALAXY HISTORIANS! Also, I wish they'd played up the Reaper's are superior, this is the ultimate evolution of all life-forms angle more. Like, the Reapers really believe they're doing everyone a favor because they're a super space elitists you're lucky to get into their old boy's club. Sounds a lot more intuitive, makes sense considering how awesome they are, yet is undeniably villainous.

Still, there really is no right answer, they didn't know it in ME1, they don't know it now. I will say though, I like this answer a lot better now than when I first heard it. I bet it wouldn't have been so disappointing if it had come at the end of ME1. That could have been the answer then considering the role of the Geth... so, once again the problem is ME2. =)

Anyway, after beating it, even though I was satisfied, I also thought how one could easily tear that ending apart. But, no less then one could tear apart the last two games overall. Which I actually think is what the ending is bearing the brunt for: it didn't fix everything. All the hope and expectations people for the potential and ultimate success of the series hinged on that ending, and so when it didn't validate everything all that feeling turned into frustration focused directly on it alone. But, it's not the ending's fault, not any more than the last ten minutes alone can encompass the end result or worth of the Mass Effect series. Looking at that way, big picture, it's not so bad at all.

That epilogue on the other hand...

 

[Aazealh]

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Just so you guys know, in the artbook we're shown a concept for what the final fight might have been like, and it's G-Virus Illusive Man Husk. The tunnel filled with corpses was where it was supposed to happen. In the end they decided it wasn't proper, that it was better to confront him with dialogue. So... It could have been worse.

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I'm more bothered by symbolic inconsistencies since that's really what the ending was about, like why was the Illusive Man aligned with Paragon color/choice and Anderson Renegade (indoctrination theories aside)?

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Killing the poor Reapers that were controlled by the mastermind VS letting them live. A true pacifist ending: even the villains weren't evil, they were just confused! They meant well! They were under the REAL villain's control (the Geth & Sovereign all over again)!

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I wish they would have played up more of the CHAOS versus ORDER angle, and particularly the series-long theme of alienation among species and how we're all going to wipe each other out randomly without a trace if they don't "preserve" us this way instead.

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Indeed. Also, it's not like "synthetics" are needed for races to annihilate each other. See what happened to the Rachni and later on to the Krogan.

 

[Griffith]

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Just so you guys know, in the artbook we're shown a concept for what the final fight might have been like, and it's G-Virus Illusive Man Husk. The tunnel filled with corpses was where it was supposed to happen. In the end they decided it wasn't proper, that it was better to confront him with dialogue. So... It could have been worse.

I actually wouldn't have minded both, even if it would have made it a complete Saren retread.

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Indeed. Also, it's not like "synthetics" are needed for races to annihilate each other. See what happened to the Rachni and later on to the Krogan.

Yeah, that's the strange part; the groundwork was already laid out, they just didn't utilize it for whatever reason. Again, I feel like it was for the sake of having what sounded like a hardcore sci-fi reveal, clunkiness and all, than something that amounts to sociology/humanities/what an English major would say. =)

 

[Oburi]

Damn, I kinda regret the ending I chose now.

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I chose synthesis mainly because at that moment as I'm pretty much facing the fact that I'm not going to make it out alive and I'm watching the space battle behind me where all my friends are fighting, I just decided fuck it, it's the next stage of evolution right? If it'll save them and guarantee the relays destruction maybe there's a chance to end the cycle. I didn't choose destruction only because I figured the geth would be wiped out (and EDI) and then I'm no better than the Reapers! But as Aaz pointed out, I'm was going on what the kid was telling me. I didn't trust him either but I didn't feel like he was trying to use me or anything like that. Also I later found out that since I didn't play multiplayer I don't know exactly how my destruction ending would have turned out if I chose that? Is there a way to destroy only the reapers?

Also as for the reveal of the reapers purpose, in my own head I kind of thought there was more to it than that. Same with the human reaper not looking like the ones we'd seen. I leave that more to the mystery of the reapers rather than plotholes. Like maybe there is more reaper technology out it dark space that we don't know about. Maybe the kid was telling me what I needed to hear at that time. All in all I think people exaggerate so much by assuming so much. With Joker, although it was jarring, I just figured he rounded up my crew after the crucible didn't seem like it was going to work and got the hell out or maybe he was standing by to try to save me. I don't really need an epilogue for shit like that.