The art style in Berserk and its evolution over the years

I never said Berserk should be an anatomy teaching book or an exercise in "drawing the same thing identically".
You're trying to demonstrate that the latest episode lacks consistency by making finicky diagrams of Guts' facial profile, you might as well be suggesting something like that. I didn't see any difference in the two examples you chose by the way, even rescaled they seem like a pretty close match to me.

The problem is that a lot of those faces from the recent chapters,which should convey the emotions that texts can't provide,or complement them,are hindering the experience because of these flaws.
While it's true that the whole face needs to vibrate, parts like the eyes, mouth, eyebrows and forehead are more actively used to convey emotion than the nose or jaw which don't change much for the most part, except for something more pronounced like rage, joy or sorrow; so if that's your reason for complaining about the slight differences in bone structure you noticed I don't think emotions are your best argument here.

I don't read looking for every angle or anatomy mistake, ...
But this is pretty much what you're doing right now.

Miura was a legend,a god when it came to represent emotions without needing a lot of text bubbles at the panels.
It seem like this needlessly overscrupulous approach to the recent artwork might come from you holding the author in such unrealistically high regard up until now that you didn't notice his many other deviations and inconsistencies throughout the series, which are a common occurrence for manga art in general. That being said, the most recent emotionally impactful moment happened in ep. 359 when Guts reacts painfully to Casca's distress. If that wasn't an amazing display of silent emotion consistently found throughout the story I don't know what is.

However,you must mantain some level of technique.
Otherwise the viewer may think there's something wrong of how a character is,instead of reading normally through the comic and appreciating the art.
I've personally managed to read normally all the way through and appreciated the art just the same, and it seems like I'm not the only one. If you ask me, I would say the artist's job has been fulfilled. This is not the best Berserk has ever looked, that in itself is something hard to pinpoint and differs from person to person, but the average standard of quality and technique is just as high as it's always been, and I think you're overreacting. Not every panel is gonna have deeply emotional and focal artwork, what's important is that the mental state of the characters has been conveyed clearly, which it has.
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member

That's a lot of text that still doesn't really seem to get my point. The way faces were drawn was never perfectly consistent, and if you think otherwise then you're either not very observant or just lying to yourself. However I'm loathe to go and pull out faces from all over the series to demonstrate my point, because I don't want to feel like I'm disparaging the work (and I also have better things to do).

Miura was a legend,a god when it came to represent emotions without needing a lot of text bubbles at the panels.
[...]
And maybe now he's having some problems when drawing faces too,be it because of the medium,his age,or anything.

Oh so now Miura, who was a "god", has problems drawing faces? It's that bad? And yet you're also saying episode 359 is the best his art has ever been. But those chin proportions in that one panel in episode 360 (where you can't actually see the chin), man they just ruin everything, and it's the worst ever. I just can't wait to see how episode 361 reverses your judgment based on the way an ear was drawn, then 362, and so on ad nauseam.


But you know, I'm warming up to your way of thinking. I mean look at the inconsistency between these two panels! Sad stuff.

 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
But you know, I'm warming up to your way of thinking. I mean look at the inconsistency between these two panels! Sad stuff.

Yeh he didn't even get his nose scar right. What a scam. My god is dead.

Joke aside, even though the art has changed, it never ruined the reading experience to me and I've been noticing some of these inconsistencies. I don't think it's a game breaker in any cases.
 
That's a lot of text that still doesn't really seem to get my point. The way faces were drawn was never perfectly consistent, and if you think otherwise then you're either not very observant or just lying to yourself. However I'm loathe to go and pull out faces from all over the series to demonstrate my point, because I don't want to feel like I'm disparaging the work (and I also have better things to do).



Oh so now Miura, who was a "god", has problems drawing faces? It's that bad? And yet you're also saying episode 359 is the best his art has ever been. But those chin proportions in that one panel in episode 360 (where you can't actually see the chin), man they just ruin everything, and it's the worst ever. I just can't wait to see how episode 361 reverses your judgment based on the way an ear was drawn, then 362, and so on ad nauseam.


But you know, I'm warming up to your way of thinking. I mean look at the inconsistency between these two panels! Sad stuff.

Another straw fallacy here : I didn't say the faces are necessarily bad.
I said that compared to what Berserk was,they are disappointing.
I may have said that on the episode thread,but it was mostly my "anger" when I read for the first time.

I also never,ever said the faces were perfectly identical.

Well,you ignored it (like you seem to do all the time),but I clearly said episode 359 was an exception.

Aren't these faces from very different Arcs?
Maybe the first one is from the Blackswordsman Arc and the other one is at the end of the Conviction Arc.
That's right,more than 50 chapters apart,aren't they?

Now ,let's see other faces at the same episode:






Looks like all faces looks exactly the same : proportions and even the style is the same.
The only difference between them is the level of detail itself,but technically they are pretty consistent.

Now onto episode 347:


These above are pretty consistent for me : Guts face is long,his nose is long,his jaw is big,eyes with sharp angles and close to each other.
Indeed,it looks like the same character.
But then it suddenly changes to this:

Which would be okay if it was just one panel,but then he introduces this baby face here:


It doesn't look slighly different from the other ones,it is completely different.

And it continues to change through this episode:


I'm even dismissing some of the changes from the smaller panels cause well,you generally have to do less details and also highlight the character with a recognizable form,so I'm okay with this:
or this


But anyway,this all happens in the same episode.
If at least it happened from one episode to another,that would be acepptable,but it isn't the case.


Yes bro,even a highly talented artist who was a "god" when drawing faces can have problems when drawing faces after some time has passed,and in fact that happens with a lot of manga or comic artists.

For example,Akira Toriyama had more detailed,better drawn art back when he started Dragon Ball,Dr Slump,and some other works like his series of military soldiers.
His art was not only hugely influencial,but also a pleasure to see.
When he hit Cell's Saga from the manga though,things started to change.
Characters were less detailed,scenes were more simplistic,he started to change his style to a more simpler one.
When characters went for battle,he used less speedlines,the battle itself had much less poses, it started to being more boring to see.
Though he still retained a nice quality for the compositions and was still a damn good artist,his art started to downgrade.
And now I would say it's a lot worse than before.

Even his paintings,which had very beautiful colors and a nice use of value tones,have downgraded when he switched his art to digital.

This was him before:






This is his art today:

So yes,it can happen with Miura as well.

You're trying to demonstrate that the latest episode lacks consistency by making finicky diagrams of Guts' facial profile, you might as well be suggesting something like that. I didn't see any difference in the two examples you chose by the way, even rescaled they seem like a pretty close match to me.


While it's true that the whole face needs to vibrate, parts like the eyes, mouth, eyebrows and forehead are more actively used to convey emotion than the nose or jaw which don't change much for the most part, except for something more pronounced like rage, joy or sorrow; so if that's your reason for complaining about the slight differences in bone structure you noticed I don't think emotions are your best argument here.


But this is pretty much what you're doing right now.


It seem like this needlessly overscrupulous approach to the recent artwork might come from you holding the author in such unrealistically high regard up until now that you didn't notice his many other deviations and inconsistencies throughout the series, which are a common occurrence for manga art in general. That being said, the most recent emotionally impactful moment happened in ep. 359 when Guts reacts painfully to Casca's distress. If that wasn't an amazing display of silent emotion consistently found throughout the story I don't know what is.


I've personally managed to read normally all the way through and appreciated the art just the same, and it seems like I'm not the only one. If you ask me, I would say the artist's job has been fulfilled. This is not the best Berserk has ever looked, that in itself is something hard to pinpoint and differs from person to person, but the average standard of quality and technique is just as high as it's always been, and I think you're overreacting. Not every panel is gonna have deeply emotional and focal artwork, what's important is that the mental state of the characters has been conveyed clearly, which it has.
What finicky diagram?
Some guys said "I don't know why his face looks like a teenager".
I provided the diagram and said "maybe because his jaw and chin looks much smaller than the other one".
But then it started "Hmm let's look at all the chins" or "This is all a nitpick" "Comics are not anatomical books".
:shrug:

While I agree with you about the eyes,mouth,eyebrows and forehead,I disagree about the rest.
When I see Guts with this "strong jaw and chin" face,I almost subcounsciously recognize him as respectable character,one that has passed through a lot of though,deadly battles,and is still alive.
It doesn't even need an explanation.

I already said that episode 359 was an exception.

Well,you liked like many others ; I didn't like many others as well.
In other forums and even on the Berserk subreddit,a lot of people complained about the style itself and some about the inconsistency of the faces.
There's a forum here in Brazil with a dedicated thread to this series.
Most people were put off to how the characters are being depicted on the recent chapters,though,like me,they also praise his untouchable ability to draw backgrounds,armors,animals,monsters,among other things.
 
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Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Xeno, I feel like what you're trying to say amounts to: Miura's digital techniques are still catching up with his older pen techniques. This has been obvious for 4 years. It probably won’t ever be exactly the same, but it’s art. Evolution is part of the package. You attempted to quantify that sense of change by anatomizing a manga drawing's chin proportions across two different panels, at two completely different angles. This was funny, and many of us pointed out that this was a flawed way to achieve your point.

One page later, here we are only now we also have comparison art with Akira Toriyama. You are not helping your point, unless your point is merely that artists change over time.

What finicky diagram?
Some guys said "I don't know why his face looks like a teenager". I provided the diagram and said "maybe because his jaw and chin looks much smaller than the other one".

Actually, you introduced the word "teenager" to this thread. No one else.

When I see Guts with this "strong jaw and chin" face,I almost subcounsciously recognize him as respectable character,one that has passed through a lot of though,deadly battles,and is still alive.
It doesn't even need an explanation.

I think it does require an explanation. What are you even trying to convey? That yes, you can still recognize the character as Guts? Or that you NEED to see that chin to respect him as Guts? Without his chin he's nothing?

In other forums and even on the Berserk subreddit,a lot of people complained about the style itself and some about the inconsistency of the faces.

"Even" on the Berserk subreddit? Are you bestowing that place with some special significance? Is that significance: "Best place to see daily brand tattoos?" People complain about the art (it's happened here too) no matter where they are located. Some of those other places also push theories about Casca enjoying being raped, unchecked by anyone. I am aware of those places. But how is any of that relevant to our discussion? Before you started slicing into Guts' face, we had some pretty good summary posts about how people feel about the current art, and the function of art in the manga at large. Now I see double posts from you with fucking Dragon Ball art.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Another straw fallacy here : I didn't say the faces are necessarily bad.
I said that compared to what Berserk was,they are disappointing.
I may have said that on the episode thread,but it was mostly my "anger" when I read for the first time.

First off, you said "the art on this episode is one of the worst I've ever seen on this manga" in the episode thread, followed by saying the art is "inconsistent and badly drawn". Your justifications, such as saying you were angry, don't matter. Also, really? Angry about a chin you can't even see in that one panel? Don't take this the wrong way but you might want to reevaluate your priorities in life. And I say this as a man who's spent 15 years talking about Berserk online.

Moving on, I didn't actually say you said the faces were "necessarily bad", so what are you even talking about here? And it's "strawman fallacy", by the way. At least use the correct expression. More generally, if you're going to try and argue with other people, you ought to put more effort into your posts. As it is you come off as barely literate, which makes it hard to take any of your would-be art critiques seriously.

I also never,ever said the faces were perfectly identical.

No but it's clearly what you're wishing for here buddy. That's what you made that little diagram for, to show how in your interpretation of that drawing where Guts' face is hidden, the proportions aren't exactly the same as on the other picture. That's what made you angry. Don't try and weasel out of it.

Well,you ignored it (like you seem to do all the time),but I clearly said episode 359 was an exception.

You actually did not say that. You said "I think ep 359 was basically the opposite, Miura was pretty consistent with faces and it had nice expressions for all the characters - one of the best looking episodes to date IMO."
You added in a later post: "[...] episode 359,which was one of the finest works of his in my opinion." Then you tempered with a vague comment, just saying you don't think as highly of "most faces" from "recent episodes".

Now the funniest thing in all of this is that your objection is irrelevant. You did say episode 359 was one of the best episodes ever, which makes your suppositions about Miura's skills based on a single panel in a subsequent episode contradictory. It's not very hard to understand. By the way, given that you have trouble understanding other people and can't even remember your own words, I'm going to have to ask you to keep your weak-sauce ad hominem fallacies to yourself, mkay?

Aren't these faces from very different Arcs?
Maybe the first one is from the Blackswordsman Arc and the other one is at the end of the Conviction Arc.
That's right,more than 50 chapters apart,aren't they?

It seems your brilliant mind missed the fact this was a joke at your expense. I guess the fact you're taking it seriously speaks volumes though.
Anyway, yes, Black Swordsman, the first issue ever published, and Appearance are more than 50 episodes apart. Reminder: individual Berserk issues are called episodes, not chapters.
That was the joke, well that and the fact they're of very different sizes and have different angles. The implicitation was that these kinds of comparisons are useless, as I've said before.
Here's a fun fact for you though: as much time elapsed between when these two issues were published as did between episodes 302 and 360.
As you should know, an artist's style evolves continuously, so comparing issues that came out far apart, even if they're consecutive on paper, should take note of the creation date.

Now ,let's see other faces at the same episode:

Looks like all faces looks exactly the same : proportions and even the style is the same.

As far as I can see there is no more or less discrepancy between these as there is between the two faces that got you "angry" about the hidden chin proportions. Why aren't you complaining about the shape of the nose? If anything, this just indicates to me that you are not able to objectively discuss these matters.

Now onto episode 347:

These above are pretty consistent for me : Guts face is long,his nose is long,his jaw is big,eyes with sharp angles and close to each other.
Indeed,it looks like the same character.
But then it suddenly changes to this:

I'm removing the pictures because they take so much place. I actually find the top left panel to be the least resembling of the lot. It might be one of those where he's experimenting with reusing assets, which would explain it. Those tend to have very uneven results. As a side note, reusing assets is actually one thing I would complain about, and I hope he ends up abandoning the practice. That's what I'd rather discuss in this thread. Anyway, the bottom one looks fine to me. It definitely looks like Guts, and feels like a typical panel of him. Now, what you should understand is that this is the beauty of the human visual perception system, and that two individuals may have different preferences.

Which would be okay if it was just one panel,but then he introduces this baby face here:

The face just looks scrunched because the panel didn't have enough height and he probably didn't feel like redoing it. :shrug:Like I told you before, not every panel is great. This is nothing new.

Yes bro,even a highly talented artist who was a "god" when drawing faces can have problems when drawing faces after some time has passed,and in fact that happens with a lot of manga or comic artists.

Look son, you're the one spouting inane shit here, so get down from your high horse. Miura's a talented artist for sure, but I didn't label him a "god", you did. Only to go on and say that he must have forgotten how to draw Guts' face. And then say episode 359 was one of the best ever. If anything, what's been most inconsistent in this thread so far is you.

What finicky diagram?
Some guys said "I don't know why his face looks like a teenager".
I provided the diagram and said "maybe because his jaw and chin looks much smaller than the other one".

That did not happen. Not in this thread nor in the episode 360 thread. Get your story straight.

When I see Guts with this "strong jaw and chin" face,I almost subcounsciously recognize him as respectable character,one that has passed through a lot of though,deadly battles,and is still alive.

That's... a lot to unpack.

In other forums and even on the Berserk subreddit,a lot of people complained about the style itself and some about the inconsistency of the faces.

My boy, you seem fond of fallacies if I remember correctly, yes? What you're doing here is a fallacy called "argumentum ad populum", or the appeal to popularity. It doesn't matter that some people are complaining somewhere else as it has no bearing on the merits of your arguments.
 
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Xeno, I feel like what you're trying to say amounts to: Miura's digital techniques are still catching up with his older pen techniques. This has been obvious for 4 years. It probably won’t ever be exactly the same, but it’s art. Evolution is part of the package. You attempted to quantify that sense of change by anatomizing a manga drawing's chin proportions across two different panels, at two completely different angles. This was funny, and many of us pointed out that this was a flawed way to achieve your point.

One page later, here we are only now we also have comparison art with Akira Toriyama. You are not helping your point, unless your point is merely that artists change over time.



Actually, you introduced the word "teenager" to this thread. No one else.



I think it does require an explanation. What are you even trying to convey? That yes, you can still recognize the character as Guts? Or that you NEED to see that chin to respect him as Guts? Without his chin he's nothing?



"Even" on the Berserk subreddit? Are you bestowing that place with some special significance? Is that significance: "Best place to see daily brand tattoos?" People complain about the art (it's happened here too) no matter where they are located. Some of those other places also push theories about Casca enjoying being raped, unchecked by anyone. I am aware of those places. But how is any of that relevant to our discussion? Before you started slicing into Guts' face, we had some pretty good summary posts about how people feel about the current art, and the function of art in the manga at large. Now I see double posts from you with fucking Dragon Ball art.
My bad then, I messed up with the text ; you guys didn't say that.

The diagram was just provided to explain why it looked like a teenager for me,and that's it.

I've just used Akira Toriyama to say that even high skilled artists can have problems after some time has passed.
Maybe because he's not fully adapted to digital medium,maybe because he's tired...it can be anything.
You could disagree that this is happening to Miura, I respect that,but I think his art has worsened,at least when drawing faces.

Hmm not exactly.
Someone above said "there's a lot of people who like the art",something like that.
So I've just responded that, indeed there's a lot people liking the art (probably the majority),and there's a lot of people that didn't like the last episodes.
In conclusion,none of these groups are right or wrong.
I'm not saying "the art is bad because there's a lot of people saying that".

First off, you said "the art on this episode is one of the worst I've ever seen on this manga" in the episode thread, followed by saying the art is "inconsistent and badly drawn". Your justifications, such as saying you were angry, don't matter. Also, really? Angry about a chin you can't even see in that one panel? Don't take this the wrong way but you might want to reevaluate your priorities in life. And I say this as a man who's spent 15 years talking about Berserk online.

Moving on, I didn't actually say you said the faces were "necessarily bad", so what are you even talking about here? And it's "strawman fallacy", by the way. At least use the correct expression. More generally, if you're going to try and argue with other people, you ought to put more effort into your posts. As it is you come off as barely literate, which makes it hard to take any of your would-be art critiques seriously.



No but it's clearly what you're wishing for here buddy. That's what you made that little diagram for, to show how in your interpretation of that drawing where Guts' face is hidden, the proportions aren't exactly the same as on the other picture. That's what made you angry. Don't try and weasel out of it.



You actually did not say that. You said "I think ep 359 was basically the opposite, Miura was pretty consistent with faces and it had nice expressions for all the characters - one of the best looking episodes to date IMO."
You added in a later post: "[...] episode 359,which was one of the finest works of his in my opinion." Then you tempered with a vague comment, just saying you don't think as highly of "most faces" from "recent episodes".

Now the funniest thing in all of this is that your objection is irrelevant. You did say episode 359 was one of the best episodes ever, which makes your suppositions about Miura's skills based on a single panel in a subsequent episode contradictory. It's not very hard to understand. By the way, given that you have trouble understanding other people and can't even remember your own words, I'm going to have to ask you to keep your weak-sauce ad hominem fallacies to yourself, mkay?



It seems your brilliant mind missed the fact this was a joke at your expense. I guess the fact you're taking it seriously speaks volumes though.
Anyway, yes, Black Swordsman, the first issue ever published, and Appearance are more than 50 episodes apart. Reminder: individual Berserk issues are called episodes, not chapters.
That was the joke, well that and the fact they're of very different sizes and have different angles. The implicitation was that these kinds of comparisons are useless, as I've said before.
Here's a fun fact for you though: as much time elapsed between when these two issues were published as did between episodes 302 and 360.
As you should know, an artist's style evolves continuously, so comparing issues that came out far apart, even if they're consecutive on paper, should take note of the creation date.



As far as I can see there is no more or less discrepancy between these as there is between the two faces that got you "angry" about the hidden chin proportions. Why aren't you complaining about the shape of the nose? If anything, this just indicates to me that you are not able to objectively discuss these matters.



I'm removing the pictures because they take so much place. I actually find the top left panel to be the least resembling of the lot. It might be one of those where he's experimenting with reusing assets, which would explain it. Those tend to have very uneven results. As a side note, reusing assets is actually one thing I would complain about, and I hope he ends up abandoning the practice. That's what I'd rather discuss in this thread. Anyway, the bottom one looks fine to me. It definitely looks like Guts, and feels like a typical panel of him. Now, what you should understand is that this is the beauty of the human visual perception system, and that two individuals may have different preferences.



The face just looks scrunched because the panel didn't have enough height and he probably didn't feel like redoing it. :shrug:Like I told you before, not every panel is great. This is nothing new.



Look son, you're the one spouting inane shit here, so get down from your high horse. Miura's a talented artist for sure, but I didn't label him a "god", you did. Only to go on and say that he must have forgotten how to draw Guts' face. And then say episode 359 was one of the best ever. If anything, what's been most inconsistent in this thread so far is you.



That did not happen. Not in this thread nor in the episode 360 thread. Get your story straight.



That's... a lot to unpack.



My boy, you seem fond of fallacies if I remember correctly, yes? What you're doing here is a fallacy called "argumentum ad populum", or the appeal to popularity. It doesn't matter that some people are complaining somewhere else as it has no bearing on the merits of your arguments.
Well
That was a nonsense joke , I didn't compare faces from more than 50 chapters apart.

I can even buy the "chin joke" made by other users, because it makes sense from what I said.

About "the tip of the nose" : even on that diagram I said this was a nitpick.I should have clarified more that the nose itself was more or less the same.
It's a natural change.

"Get down from your high horse"

Maybe you should stop doing those fallacies,and doing nonsense jokes,before saying that, at least.

But let's get straight to the point : saying that "Miura drew faces like a god" was not literally.
I mean, it should be pretty clear for you what I truly said : he was damn good,awesome at drawing faces.

Like I've said again and again...episode 359 was an exception to the rule.
How many episodes have passed since they arrived at Elfhelm?
I guess more than 10.
You're trying to create an inconsistency that doesn't exist.

You can keep your preference, there's no point to argue about that.
I'm just talking about the inconsistency of his faces in this episode.
Like,Guts face has two or three distinct forms in this episode.
Should Miura have used just one of these,with just one or other scene looking different,it would be consistent with this one episode in mind.

I've messed up with that part,like I've said above...

Well, I already answered that too, but just to clarify : saying that people liked or not ,is not an argument to support my thesis.
When did I say it was?
You gonna jump to conclusions again?
I've just casually said that because someone talked about this as well.
I wasn't even talking to you by the way.
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
But let's get straight to the point : saying that "Miura drew faces like a god" was not literally.
I mean, it should be pretty clear for you what I truly said : he was damn good,awesome at drawing faces.

You're still missing the point, which is that your reasoning is contradictory. Even now you say Miura's still good at drawing other things, just not faces. He's lost it, but just for faces! Although the faces were "some of the best ever" in episode 359. So is he just intermittently good now? Or episode 359 was a stroke of luck? He regained his skills temporarily? Don't answer the question, it's rhetorical. What matters is that it's not how these things work. Even if we agreed on the fact that panel in episode 360 was not so good (which I absolutely do not agree with), the more likely explanation would just be that... that particular panel was less good than average, which is something that happens. Not every piece of art can be the best ever. Furthermore, there are many very expressive faces in episode 360, from Casca and Farnese to all the witch students. The fact you're ignoring these as if they didn't exist really confirms to me that your complaints, which may have started as reasonable worries in the past, have become irrational.

How many episodes have passed since they arrived at Elfhelm?
I guess more than 10.

No need to guess: 19 episodes, with episode 342 having been released in November 2015.
 
You're still missing the point, which is that your reasoning is contradictory. Even now you say Miura's still good at drawing other things, just not faces. He's lost it, but just for faces! Although the faces were "some of the best ever" in episode 359. So is he just intermittently good now? Or episode 359 was a stroke of luck? He regained his skills temporarily? Don't answer the question, it's rhetorical. What matters is that it's not how these things work. Even if we agreed on the fact that panel in episode 360 was not so good (which I absolutely do not agree with), the more likely explanation would just be that... that particular panel was less good than average, which is something that happens. Not every piece of art can be the best ever. Furthermore, there are many very expressive faces in episode 360, from Casca and Farnese to all the witch students. The fact you're ignoring these as if they didn't exist really confirms to me that your complaints, which may have started as reasonable worries in the past, have become irrational.



No need to guess: 19 episodes, with episode 342 having been released in November 2015.
You misunderstood me.
My reasoning is that he's having problems when drawing faces.
I think he may be still adapting to his new style,which could explain why these inconsistencies are happening.
He's having trouble with this process,this transition (like he was having trouble with the change to digital medium).

For example, there's a post on the subreddit comparing two artworks from Guts (made by Miura of course) in a short period of time.
The face itself has changed,but the neck and other details are almost the same as before,which made him a look at little strange.




The artwork on the right, in fact , is pretty similar to that "teenager" Guts from the diagram.

I'm no professional as an artist,but when you change the style,usually you have to change the overall figure to fit.
This has happened in his crossover artwork from Berserk x Hell's Paradise.



Not only Guts face looks like that,but his neck,and the body itself has changed as well.
You can notice that he's leaner on this artwork than he is on the actual manga.
Indeed,he looks like a teenager,however,his face is cohesive with the rest,which may explain why he nailed this new style.

That doesn't mean he cannot pull off any awesome chapter though.
I think he nailed his new style very well in episode 359, he was pretty consistent with the faces and the expressions were interesting to see.
I didn't say it was a struck of luck or anything like that.

About the overall faces in episode 360...
I admit that my complain may be more about the main trio faces than the other ones.
I agree that,for example,Farnese and Schierke looked pretty good,or even Morda.
Caska's expressions looked odd for me though.
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
You misunderstood me.
My reasoning is that he's having problems when drawing faces.
I think he may be still adapting to his new style,which could explain why these inconsistencies are happening.
He's having trouble with this process,this transition (like he was having trouble with the change to digital medium).

I didn't misunderstand anything. You nitpicked on a detail, then after people pushed back on it you kept digressing in these convoluted posts, and even straight up lied a couple of times. Fine by me if you wish to revise your stance, but don't pin it on others, especially given how confusing your posts are. Now I think everyone here has understood that you believe Miura has a problem with drawing faces specifically. Personally, I don't presume to be able to infer what Miura's drawing process is or if he's got unknown difficulties. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't say he had trouble with the move to digital. It went pretty smoothly, to the point that back then people weren't even sure when it started.

For example, there's a post on the subreddit comparing two artworks from Guts (made by Miura of course) in a short period of time.

Do you know the actual period of time that elapsed between these two drawings?

The artwork on the right, in fact , is pretty similar to that "teenager" Guts from the diagram.

Do you think so? I don't find it very similar.

I didn't say it was a struck of luck or anything like that.

You kept saying it was an exception, and something had to cause that exception.

Caska's expressions looked odd for me though.

Her name is spelled "Casca". And I thought those looked good and were very expressive.
 
I didn't misunderstand anything. You nitpicked on a detail, then after people pushed back on it you kept digressing in these convoluted posts, and even straight up lied a couple of times. Fine by me if you wish to revise your stance, but don't pin it on others, especially given how confusing your posts are. Now I think everyone here has understood that you believe Miura has a problem with drawing faces specifically. Personally, I don't presume to be able to infer what Miura's drawing process is or if he's got unknown difficulties. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't say he had trouble with the move to digital. It went pretty smoothly, to the point that back then people weren't even sure when it started.



Do you know the actual period of time that elapsed between these two drawings?



Do you think so? I don't find it very similar.



You kept saying it was an exception, and something had to cause that exception.



Her name is spelled "Casca". And I thought those looked good and were very expressive.
Look,you ignored a lot of explanations from my posts (even came with a nonsense joke), and taking the comments out of context,and then you said I lied a couple of times?
The only "lie" I told was corrected by Walter,and I already apologized for that.

From what I remember, the people of that subreddit said that the one on the left was made on the end of 2016,while the one on the right was made on the beginning of 2017.

Yes, I think it's pretty similar.

Yes,something had to cause that exception.
You should've asked "What do you think caused that exception? ", and not come up with hasty assumptions.

Here in Brazil her name is spelled "Caska" in the official translation by Panini.
I know it's wrong, but I'm used to writing that way.

Quick edit here, I checked those artworks,and the one on the right was in fact made in July of 2017.

Anyway,changing the discussion...

To provide some background of his evolution,I'm going to look at Miura's origins.

It looks like he did a lot of the initial pages with pencil,which is very different from how he did these ones on the later Arcs,though some of them were included in the Golden Age Arc:
I'm not sure why some of them aren't colored though,but I've heard someone saiying that the only version with the coloring was the Japanese,original one.
Is that correct ?
 

Atocas

I don't remember the last time I didn't eat Pizza
From what I remember, the people of that subreddit said that the one on the left was made on the end of 2016,while the one on the right was made on the beginning of 2017.

The right one is dated as 7/25/2017. I tried looking around for the left one and found one source claiming it was from 2010, but I couldn't find an actaully reliable source for that.

Personally I can't relate to the complaints you keep finding in the artstyle. Obviously there is some truth to what you're saying, but whenever I read Berserk I never stop and wonder what happened to the artstyle. It just doesn't occur to me. Maybe I'm the odd one, but I'm usually too focused on what's actually happening in the story even during rereads and in my opinion the art never failed in complementing it well.

Additonally I feel like this discussion is getting a bit out of hand. It doesn't help that the argument about the artstyle changes has been done to death on several platforms already. I can speak for myself that I got pretty tired of that ruckus and I feel like I'm not the only one.

Generally you might be happier with your thoughts on the subreddit. You clearly took your thread to the wrong audience.
 
So uhh what I'm seeing in this thread is were not allowed to criticize fine details between the different art styles without the admin of this site and his minions tearing you a new one. Great discussion guys. Clearly the new digital art hasn't been as good as some of the older hand drawn stuff. I see no issue with comparing side by side panels to see some of the differences.
 
The right one is dated as 7/25/2017. I tried looking around for the left one and found one source claiming it was from 2010, but I couldn't find an actaully reliable source for that.

Personally I can't relate to the complaints you keep finding in the artstyle. Obviously there is some truth to what you're saying, but whenever I read Berserk I never stop and wonder what happened to the artstyle. It just doesn't occur to me. Maybe I'm the odd one, but I'm usually too focused on what's actually happening in the story even during rereads and in my opinion the art never failed in complementing it well.

Additonally I feel like this discussion is getting a bit out of hand. It doesn't help that the argument about the artstyle changes has been done to death on several platforms already. I can speak for myself that I got pretty tired of that ruckus and I feel like I'm not the only one.

Generally you might be happier with your thoughts on the subreddit. You clearly took your thread to the wrong audience.
Thanks for looking for the date they were made.
If its true,maybe his style didn't change that much in a short period of time.

I respect your opinion even though we probably won't agree.
Everyone has a different taste and a different way of reading or enjoying the manga.

I will try to move on to another discussion.
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Look,you ignored a lot of explanations from my posts (even came with a nonsense joke), and taking the comments out of context,and then you said I lied a couple of times?The only "lie" I told was corrected by Walter,and I already apologized for that.

I've ignored nothing of what you said. Read again. If you really want me to readdress something you said then quote it and I will.
I also took none of your comments out of context, and yes, you lied, as you're admitting now.

From what I remember, the people of that subreddit said that the one on the left was made on the end of 2016,while the one on the right was made on the beginning of 2017.

No, Atocas is correct, it's from around 2009 or 2010. So that's not "a short period of time".

You should've asked "What do you think caused that exception? ", and not come up with hasty assumptions.

I put question marks to incite a response, and you should have substantiated your claims to begin with. Clearly you like to tell people what they should be doing whereas you put just about the least possible amount of effort into your posts. Notice that you still haven't provided an answer for that contradictory claim you made, even now. But it doesn't matter, let's move on.

It looks like he did a lot of the initial pages with pencil,which is very different from how he did these ones on the later Arcs,though some of them were included in the Golden Age Arc:

I'm not sure why some of them aren't colored though,but I've heard someone saiying that the only version with the coloring was the Japanese,original one.
Is that correct ?

Those were all painted. They appeared as color pages in the original Animal House issues, but were reprinted in black and white in the volumes. It's a shame because they look much better in color.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
I just think it's funny that the people criticizing the artwork, who by their own admission are not experts, insist that a master artist who's been drawing the same manga for over thirty years is suddenly having trouble drawing faces?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
So uhh what I'm seeing in this thread is were not allowed to criticize fine details between the different art styles without the admin of this site and his minions tearing you a new one. Great discussion guys. Clearly the new digital art hasn't been as good as some of the older hand drawn stuff.
Your reading comprehension sucks. Did you actually read the first page, or just after Xeno made the flawed comparison between chin proportions? We've had years of discussions about the art on this forum, criticism and otherwise.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
So uhh what I'm seeing in this thread is were not allowed to criticize fine details between the different art styles without the admin of this site and his minions tearing you a new one. Great discussion guys. Clearly the new digital art hasn't been as good as some of the older hand drawn stuff. I see no issue with comparing side by side panels to see some of the differences.
Who even made this thread? Oh yea, an admin.


This one too.
 
You guys are just proving my point about the hostility in this forum.


Your reading comprehension sucks. Did you actually read the first page, or just after Xeno made the flawed comparison between chin proportions? We've had years of discussions about the art on this forum, criticism and otherwise.

I assure you my comprehension is just fine. I could honestly gaf about chin proportions. I think its just silly how you guys are all jumping on Xeno for side by side panel comparisons. Okay so you've had years of discussions about the art whats your point?

Based on your responses here, it would seem you find this thread pointless..

Maybe we should go back and compare all the chins.
I think the medium of a serialized manga allows for slight inconsistencies in faces. And if we started scrutinizing proportions in every panel, even within the same episodes, we’d probably notice a lot of things. :shrug:

That being said, even in your diagram I don’t see any discrepancy that I would call notable.
What’s the inconsistency, if you say we should exclude the older image? Often when I see people comparing panels, they do so out of context—meaning comparing a half or full page face with a smaller, less conspicuous face. Side by side, clearly less time is spent on some panels than others. Is that what’s happening here?

Ya'll need to chill and get off your high horse.
 
From what I gather from your posts Xeno is that you expect an artist not to change the art. The artist isn't allowed to get progressively better at their craft; add challenging angles to a frame/ panel; and they should be stuck in a time that suits your preference of their art style. There are people across various professions who don't improve over time, whatever the craft in a professional capacity. Miura's on a different planet compared to those people. If you want a Big Mac that tastes the same for 50+ years, Berserk isn't for you.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I assure you my comprehension is just fine. I could honestly gaf about chin proportions. I think its just silly how you guys are all jumping on Xeno for side by side panel comparisons. Okay so you've had years of discussions about the art whats your point?

If your reading comprehension was fine, you would know that the issue never was the idea of doing side-by-side comparisons, although some of the ones Xenoskell produced were misleading. Now, if you have nothing to actually contribute to the thread except this misguided animosity, I'm going to have to ask you to stop posting in it. It's already been sidetracked enough by this chin thing.
 
I've ignored nothing of what you said. Read again. If you really want me to readdress something you said then quote it and I will.
I also took none of your comments out of context, and yes, you lied, as you're admitting now.



No, Atocas is correct, it's from around 2009 or 2010. So that's not "a short period of time".



I put question marks to incite a response, and you should have substantiated your claims to begin with. Clearly you like to tell people what they should be doing whereas you put just about the least possible amount of effort into your posts. Notice that you still haven't provided an answer for that contradictory claim you made, even now. But it doesn't matter, let's move on.



Those were all painted. They appeared as color pages in the original Animal House issues, but were reprinted in black and white in the volumes. It's a shame because they look much better in color.
Okay,I lied one time,already apologized for it and then you said : "and even straight up lied a couple of times".
There's no "a couple of times".
Now look how many times you ignored,took comment out of context or came with fallacies:
This kind of nitpicking really feels to me like it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what a manga is, and not just because it often uses panels of different sizes and angles. It reads like a first year art student's misguided attempt at critiquing a work using the wrong criteria. Paradoxically, I feel like this stems from how high quality the art is, in that it gives people the wrong idea. Berserk isn't an anatomy teaching book or an exercise in drawing the same thing identically. It's not meant to be photorealistic or to have mathematically perfect proportions. Things are exaggerated and deformed and not quite the same from panel to panel. Like in all comic books? And it has been that way since the first pages of the first volume in the series. You can probably reproduce this sort of comparison with any two panels in the series. But what's the point of it? Also, just to be clear: not all panels are perfect. Some are better than others. It has always been the case.
When I was just objectively trying to explain why the face looked younger with a diagram,from the same episode,not with another random panel from ages ago.

And then you expanded the comment supposing that I don't have any understanding of how a manga works,that I gave wrong impression of how a manga is, it is a "misguided attempt work using the wrong criteria".
Like,did I say the comic had to be perfect at any time?
What is the right criteria?
But it doesn't stop here:

Oh so now Miura, who was a "god", has problems drawing faces? It's that bad? And yet you're also saying episode 359 is the best his art has ever been. But those chin proportions in that one panel in episode 360 (where you can't actually see the chin), man they just ruin everything, and it's the worst ever. I just can't wait to see how episode 361 reverses your judgment based on the way an ear was drawn, then 362, and so on ad nauseam.


But you know, I'm warming up to your way of thinking. I mean look at the inconsistency between these two panels! Sad stuff.

Looking back to what I said,it's not difficult to see where you ignored :
"And maybe now he's having some problems when drawing faces too,be it because of the medium,his age,or anything."
You completed ignored the word "maybe" on your post.
And instead of asking why I thought that (which now I explained that maybe it would be about his transition from one style to another),you proceeded to say some nonsense.

"it is that bad?"

When I never said on this thread that the faces were necessarily bad.
And even your joke didn't make any damn sense.

Now the funniest thing in all of this is that your objection is irrelevant. You did say episode 359 was one of the best episodes ever, which makes your suppositions about Miura's skills based on a single panel in a subsequent episode contradictory. It's not very hard to understand. By the way, given that you have trouble understanding other people and can't even remember your own words, I'm going to have to ask you to keep your weak-sauce ad hominem fallacies to yourself, mkay?



My boy, you seem fond of fallacies if I remember correctly, yes? What you're doing here is a fallacy called "argumentum ad populum", or the appeal to popularity. It doesn't matter that some people are complaining somewhere else as it has no bearing on the merits of your arguments.
Inventing some kind of hypothetical inconsistency on my posts.
Like,I've just said that 359 was an exception,again and again,and that 360 had that strange panel from Guts.
What is the inconsistency here?


The last part of your comment took my comment completely out of context though.

The comment was this:
"I've personally managed to read normally all the way through and appreciated the art just the same, and it seems like I'm not the only one. If you ask me, I would say the artist's job has been fulfilled. This is not the best Berserk has ever looked, that in itself is something hard to pinpoint and differs from person to person, but the average standard of quality and technique is just as high as it's always been, and I think you're overreacting. Not every panel is gonna have deeply emotional and focal artwork, what's important is that the mental state of the characters has been conveyed clearly, which it has."

And I posted:
"Well,you liked like many others ; I didn't like many others as well.
In other forums and even on the Berserk subreddit,a lot of people complained about the style itself and some about the inconsistency of the faces.
There's a forum here in Brazil with a dedicated thread to this series.
Most people were put off to how the characters are being depicted on the recent chapters,though,like me,they also praise his untouchable ability to draw backgrounds,armors,animals,monsters,among other things."
Likewise,I was just casually talking about this,not trying to justify "why the art looks worse".
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Okay,I lied one time,already apologized for it and then you said : "and even straight up lied a couple of times".
There's no "a couple of times".

You said the two pictures above were drawn with only a short period of time in-between them, didn't you? That wasn't true. You also said I was doing "straw fallacies", which wasn't actually the case (look up what strawman fallacies are). You said you don't go looking for little anatomical details, but it's exactly what you did with that chin thing. You said you hadn't actually said the faces were bad, while you had in the episode 360 thread. Call it whatever you want, but those assertions were all falsehoods.

Now look how many times you ignored,took comment out of context or came with fallacies:

When I was just objectively trying to explain why the face looked younger with a diagram,from the same episode,not with another random panel from ages ago.
And then you expanded the comment supposing that I don't have any understanding of how a manga works,that I gave wrong impression of how a manga is, it is a "misguided attempt work using the wrong criteria".

You don't seem to understand how discourse is usually conducted. Because I am very patient, I will attempt to explain it to you. What you were doing was effectively comparing two minute anatomical details together, and funnily enough, doing so with one of the details actually being hidden. So it was a comparison based on conjecture. I told you how that came across to me, and my opinion hasn't changed. None of that is fallacious. I didn't misrepresent your position or your arguments. But from what you're saying here I'm not sure you even properly understood my post. The language barrier probably hindered this conversation a fair bit.

Anyway, you weren't "just trying to explain why the face looked younger". You said you found that face "very different from the one on the last page", adding that "the jaw and chin are way too diferent". Your complaint from the beginning was about how "odd, inconsistent" those two faces were, and the fact you thought one looked younger was only a side comment. In fact you had mentioned just before that in the past, "the proportions and anatomy itself was very consistent". It's amazing that you would try to misrepresent this exchange while anyone can go read it on the previous page.

What is the right criteria?

It's certainly not chin proportions, and I mean no offense as I know this is a very sensitive topic to you.

Looking back to what I said,it's not difficult to see where you ignored :
"And maybe now he's having some problems when drawing faces too,be it because of the medium,his age,or anything."
You completed ignored the word "maybe" on your post.
And instead of asking why I thought that (which now I explained that maybe it would be about his transition from one style to another),you proceeded to say some nonsense.

This is what your argument comes down to? That I ignored the word "maybe" in this sentence? This is kindergarten-level shit. You said you think Miura's having problems drawing faces repeatedly in this thread, including just earlier today: "My reasoning is that he's having problems when drawing faces." You're just trying to shift your position retrospectively. And like I said, it's not up to me to substantiate your arguments.

"it is that bad?"

When I never said on this thread that the faces were necessarily bad.

You misunderstood that comment. I was poking fun at the fact you were saying Miura went from a "god of drawing faces" to not being able to draw them correctly.

And even your joke didn't make any damn sense.

I can tell you felt that one. Don't be salty.

Inventing some kind of hypothetical inconsistency on my posts.
Like,I've just said that 359 was an exception,again and again,and that 360 had that strange panel from Guts.
What is the inconsistency here?

The inconsistency lies in saying Miura used to be exceptionally good at drawing faces, but that he currently has problems drawing faces, and pointing out as evidence a chin that cannot actually be seen in one panel in the latest episode. As a reminder, this is what this whole discussion has been about: your insistence that your comparison of the chin in these two pictures was sound and warranted. Anyway, you noted in parallel that the previous episode, released 8 months ago, was "one of his finest works", which is contradictory with the idea that he currently has problems drawing faces. Note that it's specifically faces that are the problem, everything else is as good as ever. To support your point about Miura's current drawing ability, you posted pictures from episode 347, which came out four years ago and is therefore not really "current". But you produced no explanation for how episode 359 could be "one of the best" while the recent episode could be "one of the worst ever", which is how you qualified it in the other thread. Of course you went back on those words later, saying you were angry. Then when I asked you about it just earlier, you said you agreed that the other faces in episode 360 were pretty good. I find that pretty inconsistent overall.

Ok, I hope you're satiated with that, because I feel like I've humored you long enough on this chin thing. It's kind of embarrassing honestly. You said you wanted to move on earlier, so that's what's going to happen now.
 
So uhh what I'm seeing in this thread is were not allowed to criticize fine details between the different art styles without the admin of this site and his minions tearing you a new one. Great discussion guys. Clearly the new digital art hasn't been as good as some of the older hand drawn stuff. I see no issue with comparing side by side panels to see some of the differences.
The main point of contention here has not been whether the differences in the new artstyle are for the better or worse, but about Xenoskell's way of showing how they are for the worse, which happened to be a pretty flawed way of looking at things, which in turn was called out as such. Unlike you, apparently, what I like about this forum is that both Berserk and ideas expressed around it are treated with scrutiny and attention to detail, so if you can't take that kind of heat or don't want to bother putting more effort and thought into your posts this will not seem like the "friendliest" place. Besides that not being true though, as people can be both friendly and strict depending on the situation, if that's the case for you, then there are always more casual conversations going on around here that you can take part in and let others get into the pedantic stuff, or even frequent some other forums more suited to your preferred style of discourse instead. This might come off as gate-keeping or elitist or something to you, but I'm only being as honest as I can, because I've actually seen some other people with a similar sentiment as yours around here and I don't think it's doing them (or you) any good.

The last part of your comment took my comment completely out of context though.

The comment was this:
"I've personally managed to read normally all the way through and appreciated the art just the same, and it seems like I'm not the only one. If you ask me, I would say the artist's job has been fulfilled. This is not the best Berserk has ever looked, that in itself is something hard to pinpoint and differs from person to person, but the average standard of quality and technique is just as high as it's always been, and I think you're overreacting. Not every panel is gonna have deeply emotional and focal artwork, what's important is that the mental state of the characters has been conveyed clearly, which it has."

And I posted:
"Well,you liked like many others ; I didn't like many others as well.

...
That was actually my reply to you, not Aazealh's, so you can make up with him for yet another slip-up in private if you want. As for taking your comment out of context, I don't see how. I think you might be confused about the order of the discussion here, what you posted and what I replied to with that paragraph was this:

However,you must mantain some level of technique.
Otherwise the viewer may think there's something wrong of how a character is,instead of reading normally through the comic and appreciating the art.

I think I addressed your point about technique well enough, but let me reiterate just in case: I think the art in the latest episode is more than clear and representative enough of what is happening in the character's mind for the average reader to not find issue with it, or have trouble understanding it, which means the artist has technically (literally speaking) done his job right.
 
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So uhh what I'm seeing in this thread is were not allowed to criticize fine details between the different art styles without the admin of this site and his minions tearing you a new one. Great discussion guys.
Well, someone being the admin isn't going to matter until someone breaks the ToS. Doesn't matter if someone is a moderator--they're allowed to partake in the conversation all the same. Your post would have made more sense if someone was banned for criticising Miura's art. Which, obviously, no one was.

No one is saying that someone can't have preferences. It's rather queer how you're jumping to that.
 
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