Episode 83 is not officially part of the series. It was removed from it.
Yeah, but by the way various characters describe the God of the Berserk world, it's obvious that it is the Idea of Evil or at least an equivalent entity. Void calls it the God born of man, Flora states the behilits were sent by a master, during the menlium ceremony both Puck and the Beherit apostle refer to a collective will demanding the rebirth of Griffith. Miura had no intention of ever letting the chapter be republished, so there is no incentive to cover up the story or retcon it.
Also, it's been made amply clear, like by the prophecy, that the "Falcon of Light" is a deception. Lastly, the very name "Idea of Evil" should be enough to make you doubt any velleities of bringing salvation to mankind
Neither the God Hand nor Griffith are deceptive, Griffith makes no effort to hide his extraordinary abilities, nor his war demons from his human subjects, he has been legitimatised by the Pope and the princess. He is the saviour the human race asked for and he has fulfilled that task. Even apostles who are aware of Femto recognition him as the hawk of light, he appears to Zodd as a shining hawk, reincarnated Ganishka views him beneath massive wings of light.
Let me be clear that salvation doesn’t necessarily mean sunshine and unicorns, what form salvation represents is up to the human race to decide, if the desired world is one with gradients of beauty and terror, then that is the world they get. The Idea of Evil is not in of itself evil, it is the “Idea” of evil, because the human race wanted the kind of evil represented in their myths and repressed selves.
Midland does not exist anymore. The entire astral world is not the Island of Skellig. Skellig is not just "miles away", nor is it besieged, nor should it be summarized as being "armed with scarecrows and a wicker man" (which have been destroyed anyway). And the goal isn't to turn ordinary people against the astral world so much as to cement their dependency on the God Hand. And Griffith is a member of the God Hand, lest you've forgotten. Clearly you don't seem to be arguing rationally here.
Thanks for clarifying that, I misunderstood you.
I see you have learned literally nothing from 30+ volumes establishing what the apostles' nature is. Nor from Locus' speech to Rickert about it mere episodes ago. Hilarious "thunderdome" reference, by the way.
"If the hawk did not lead them, apostles would follow their own selfish desires" We both agree on this, apostles are hedonistic monsters.
Just read again what you said just above. The apostles are now defending blablabla and safely segregated blablabla. This is a direct counterexample.
No it's not, the apostles may be horrible creatures but they're part of his kingdom too, he took them in and gave them a purpose, Griffith cannot change their nature, but he has extraordinary influence over them and his generals obey him without question, so long as their lust for mayhem is kindled they wont harm the humans.
No, you're misquoting episode 83. What the Idea of Evil says is this:
Humans desired reasons.
Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd.
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.
Humans did not desire suffering. Please don't reply without at least making sure you know what you're talking about.
Accurate translations of that chapter are hard to come by, but what I said was still accurate.
Completely baseless extrapolation that seems to purposely ignore what is shown to us in the story, as well as what the Idea of Evil's philosophy is.
I can't believe anyone with an ounce of historical or mythological knowledge could manage to get the references this completely wrong. Griffith is so obviously meant to be a false savior that it pains me to have to point it out. Herakles? Reaaaally? And let's not even talk about the rest.
I was giving examples of demi gods that appear a lot in human culture, thematically Griffith is more like a Jesus figure than Heracles. And Griffith is a figure in the Berserk religion, as are the other God Hand. Silat calls incarnate Ganishka Shiva, his towering presence makes many characters exclaim that the “reason of the world has ended”. Ganishka was a follower of the God Hand and has turned away from them, he makes a mockery of the one true god, he wants to rein humans under an empire of terror, he is an anti christ figure, or at least the chosen enemy for Griffith to face, you can't get any more powerful than the ruler of the most powerful empire on Earth and the most powerful apostle in existence. Humans write the script and Griffith plays it out, the Skull Knight even makes reference that Griffith like a character in his own story.
It's the other way around. The God Hand's entire lives as humans were conceived so that they would become what they are. That is what Griffith is told in episode 83, which you keep referring to. I also didn't say they were inserting themselves into "God's will". I said they were inserting themselves into the corporeal world. They are, by definition, doing the Idea of Evil's bidding. That's why they're called the "God Hand", the hand of god. They can do whatever they want, but they were engineered so that what they want serves the Idea of Evil's purpose.
I agree with this, the paradox of free will is a topic that comes up a lot in the Berserk.
This is irrelevant to what I was saying. Yes, after being transformed into evil monsters, the evil monsters relish their evil monstrousness. Was there ever more than that to Rochine or the Count's characters? Who cares, right?.
Well you phrased it as if the God Hand are tricking people by turning them into demons, but they are fulfilling their desires.
There is more to them, but frankly it doesn’t matter, their enrolment involves cracking open the supressed dark emotions inside of them and sacrificing their loved ones to embrace that darker self, their malice hatred and lust are magnified, but it’s not as if it didn’t exist in the first place, Rosine and the Count wanted their loved ones dead for betraying them.
Individual suffering is a necessary component of mankind's suffering in general. The Idea of Evil is in each and every human's heart. Also, saying the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind is without much ground. It was created from the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness. Since then, it's weaved the destinies of men. Clearly, given how it has reshaped the world, it is a master more than a servant. A god, in fact.
But it does not act out of selfishness, everything it does is in accordance with the wishes of humanity, it has no individual will. Just because it’s powerful doesn’t mean it’s a dictator.
So, as I was telling you earlier, why do you think the world is as it is right now? ( Human will) Why do you think humans are made to desperately rely on the God Hand and apostles for survival against the outside world? (Because humans are driven to embrace monotheism)
Why is the astral world, a force that can rival the God Hand's, made to be an absolute enemy? (Creatures on their own are not the abosulte enemy of the God Hand.)
Humans used to know magic and could presumably live in that world, long ago. Maybe they were allied with the nice astral beings against the bad ones. But now, they blindly rely on the power of evil. A power based only on mankind. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't without reason. This is the agenda.
It’s not the astral world itself that is at odds with the God Hand, rather the agents on the spectrum that they exist which are at odds with their desires, witches in Berserk view magic as a pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the worlds beyond the physical realm, the polytheistic gods represent elemental forces of nature, the magic of the god hand in contrast is centered around the fulfillment of human will, the Holy See acts as a proxy to suppress the influence of Polytheism and magic for this reason. In short the astral beings act in favour of the forces of nature and not human nature. Also The God Hand can only govern the physical world, they have no control of the astral world, giving figures like Flora, SK and to a lesser extent Guts the ability to fight against them.
I think where we differ is that you believe the God Hand are lying to the world, they’re pretending to act in the interests of humanity but are secretly plotting to create hell on Earth, and Griffith is waiting reveal his grand deception.
And I think there is no deception in either the God Hand or Griffith, that fantasia is something humans truly wanted, and Griffiths goal is to create a kingdom where is subjects live in happiness, not to suddenly turn cruel and rule them like a dictator.
