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Offline bitterbeings

Skull Knight questions...
« on: December 19, 2008, 07:17:49 AM »
Just got done reading Vol. 18 of the Dark Horse release and there are a of couple things I came across which didn't make much sense to me.

First question is a quick one. At the part where Farnese and the bird guy enter Mozgus' chamber, Mozgus says that a sage was once imprisoned in the tower by King Gaiseric and was tortured. I thought that Gaiseric was supposed to be one of the good guys, and maybe even the Skull Night..what gives?

Now the next question i think i understand, but would like to hear what others think.

During the conversation between Guts and Skull Knight, the Skull Knight says:

"The world is as moonlight reflected on the water's surface.
The moons light will not be extinguished. So long as the moon exists in the sky, moonlight will remain on the water...
...And this is a thing that already was.
What will follow now is a shadow... No more than a shadow cast high above the earth ...By light from a distant dying sun."

Then Skull Knight says:

"We already subsist... Within the current of causality.
We who exist beyond the physical are still merely shadows on the water"

Then finishes with:

"Maybe you aren't a shadow on the water... But instead, a fish that breaches water's surface"

What confuses me the most is the first part that Skull Knight says, but what i gather from the other 2 parts is that what Skull Knight is trying to say is that Guts would normally be bound by fate (death), but since he lives within the interstice (due to the brand) he may be exempt from it (fish breaching water's surface)

Anybody have a different interpretation of this?

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 03:27:53 PM »
Mozgus says that a sage was once imprisoned in the tower by King Gaiseric and was tortured. I thought that Gaiseric was supposed to be one of the good guys, and maybe even the Skull Night..what gives?
It is a mystery. However, keep in mind this is knowledge coming from the Holy See -- not exactly the good guys themselves, and certainly not a reliable source. However, it could very well have been Gaiseric who ordered that man ( :void: ?) imprisoned in the tower. We simply don't know.

"The world is as moonlight reflected on the water's surface.
Ahh, the old fish/water/moon analogy. First up, you should also check out what Slan says in vol 13 after Skull Knight bursts in. She uses an analogy here that's connected.

But anyway, there's no simple answer here. But in volume 18, Skull Knight is referring to the upcoming 1000-year-incarnation ceremony, and conversely, how the astral and ideal worlds interact with the physical.

I actually believe a more accurate translation for the first section would have been: "This world...," since he's referring to the physical. Anyway, the function of this analogy is that forces in the astral and ideal world (namely the God Hand and the Idea of Evil, which by the way is mentioned directly in vol 20's three-part episodes title: Shadow of Idea...) can project certain events on the physical world through Causality that cannot be stopped -- but they can be briefly interrupted, such as with a jumping fish whose splash disrupts the reflected image. In this instance, Guts has a choice to make, he can either stop Griffith or save Casca -- either way it's an interruption of the causal forces at work.

Of course, the analogy has a rather brilliant catch, that most people don't get: that fish can't stay above the water very long, and must ultimately plunge right back in :guts: So no, Guts is not outside Causality.

Also, for completeness, here's what the Berserk Glossary has to say about this analogy:
Quote from: BERSERK Encyclopedia
Near the end of Femto's Occultation, in volume 13, Slan said regarding Skull Knight that a Jumping Fish cannot alter the flow of the river it swims in. By this, she means that even though Skull Knight succeeds in acting against or without following causality, he always falls back to the river eventually, can't escape it, and can't really affect it. Skull Knight is the Fish, Causality is the River.

Later on, in volume 18, Skull Knight tells Guts in Albion that the material world is like the moon's shadow reflected on the water, and that he might not just be a shadow reflected on the surface of the water, but a fish creating ripples in it.

It is interesting to note that it implies the Ideal world is the moon, quite untouchable for a fish, and that no matter how much you stir the water, the moon's image comes back as the same in the end, irremediably. But because Guts resides in the Instertice between the material world and the astral world, he can be more than a mere shadow.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 06:24:33 PM »
It is a mystery. However, keep in mind this is knowledge coming from the Holy See -- not exactly the good guys themselves, and certainly not a reliable source. However, it could very well have been Gaiseric who ordered that man ( :void: ?) imprisoned in the tower. We simply don't know.

I wondered about this too.  I didn't pick up what Mozgus said on the first read but after going back it got my attention. At first I figured this "prisoner" was hinting at Slan, but then I realized that it made more sense if it was Void and so that's what I'm guessing Miura might have been hinting at. Is that a little over speculation given we have no evidence and just one little comment?  And I never thought of the holy sea or king Gaiseric as the "good guys". Did I missinterpret something or is King Gaiseric obviously portrayed as a villain (from what little we know)? He was a Supreme King of dozens of nations. He imposed heavy taxes and the city "became a melting pot of feast and pleasure". 

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 06:31:44 PM »
Did I missinterpret something or is King Gaiseric obviously portrayed as a villain (from what little we know)? He was a Supreme King of dozens of nations. He imposed heavy taxes and the city "became a melting pot of feast and pleasure". 
Like I said, some of that information comes from the Holy See, who probably have their own reasons to demonize the former emperor. And as for the other legends, it's been 1,000 years with no lineage to carry on his line, or really any way to standarize his deeds. I wonder if there's any truth to these allegations.

But here's what we do know -- the character of the Skull Knight. The only litmus test we can use to prove anything is what we know of his character. Does Skulll Knight really strike you as an unchivalrous tyrant who would tax the people to death as his empire swells in hedonism? Keep in mind, this is the guy who swooped down to rescue Luca, because he happened to be passing by...  :badbone:

PS: Man, bitterbeings probably got more than he counted for in replies :serpico:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 06:49:50 PM »
Like I said, some of that information comes from the Holy See, who probably have their own reasons to demonize the former emperor. And as for the other legends, it's been 1,000 years with no lineage to carry on his line, or really any way to standarize his deeds. I wonder if there's any truth to these allegations.

But here's what we do know -- the character of the Skull Knight. The only litmus test we can use to prove anything is what we know of his character. Does Skulll Knight really strike you as an unchivalrous tyrant who would tax the people to death as his empire swells in hedonism? Keep in mind, this is the guy who swooped down to rescue Luca, because he happened to be passing by...  :badbone:


Actually yes, I absolutely believe it. Remember how Griffith was as a man and then what the Eclipse did to him, or gave him the chance to do.  I believe it's entirely possible that the skullknight we know now was not always like this. He very well could have been a ruthless emperor and an all out evil human being. Giving the circumstances about what happened to him when the "angels" came down to punish him, he may have had a change in heart. Much like Griffith only backwords if that makes any sense.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 07:04:11 PM »
Actually yes, I absolutely believe it.


Keep on believing! The Holy See says the Falcon will save us all  :griffnotevil:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 07:24:41 PM »
Ok i get it. But I wasn't thinking of that at all. Forget the Holy Sea, I was quoting Princess Charlotte about king Gaiseric ruling an evil empire of sorts.  It may have been Judo actually. Either way I was referring to one them. But I guess the same argument stands, they just are not credible sources. But still I don't think it's hard to imagine skullknight (as King Gaiseric)  being an evil "Supreme King" a thousand years ago.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 07:35:29 PM »
I can appreciate an alternate viewpoint. I just tend to gravitate toward what I find a more compelling explanation.

Rather than Gaiseric being an evil emperor whose evil empire was decimated by Heaven-sent angels (really?), I find it more interesting if he were a charismatic human who was onto a good thing, but was routed by supernatural forces -- namely, the advent of the God Hand.

And throughout all these years since, his good name has been tarnished by the lesser beings who
survived the Bronze Age (see what I did there  :troll:?).

Of course, the truth is still a giant fucking mystery.

PS: A few corrections I've seen crop up in this thread. It's the Holy See, not a holy body of water. It's a term that exists in our world as well, and refers to the seat of power in the Catholic Church. And Gaiseric is really an emperor, not a Supreme King, which is just an overtly literal translation of the text.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 07:45:59 PM »
PS: A few corrections I've seen crop up in this thread. It's the Holy See, not a holy body of water. It's a term that exists in our world as well, and refers to the seat of power in the Catholic Church. And Gaiseric is really an emperor, not a Supreme King, which is just an overtly literal translation of the text.[/i]

Oh ok I was wondering about that actually. Holy See ok got it now. And I was wondering if I should use the term emperor or Supreme King (as it is in Dark Horse).  I chose the overtly literal translation because thats all I had on hand and figured someone would correct me if I chose Emperor instead. But I get it now.

I agree that the "angels" are actually the God Hand. Gaiseric can still be evil though (in my mind).

Offline bitterbeings

Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 10:57:41 PM »
PS: Man, bitterbeings probably got more than he counted for in replies :serpico:

Haha, it was great reading you guys' responses, everything makes more sense now. After reading your responses, now I need to know how you guys came up with Void possibly being the 'sage' who was locked up in the tower. Was this mentioned anywhere? or just estimated guess.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 11:10:12 PM »
Was this mentioned anywhere? or just estimated guess.
No, it's more of a hunch really that there's any connection between Skull Knight and Void. It's also a conclusion that it seems many people come to , independent of collective online discussions.

The idea's only basis is from the look they exchange in volume 13, after Skull Knight bursts into the Eclipse, and he goes straight for Void's big-ass brain. To me, it wordlessly implies a history between the characters, though I can also see how it's just Skull Knight attacking a figurehead of the God Hand when the situation presents itself.

Once again, it's just a case of me gravitating towards what I find a compelling possibility, despite there being no solid evidence in support (or to the contrary).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

avidwriter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 11:49:13 PM »
I've always thought of Void as the leader of God Hand assuming there is such a thing. This is mostly because he does most if not all of the talking during the eclipse in volume 13. So then it would make sense that he'd take a swing at Void.

Offline bitterbeings

Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2008, 02:37:41 AM »
The idea's only basis is from the look they exchange in volume 13, after Skull Knight bursts into the Eclipse, and he goes straight for Void's big-ass brain.

Now that you point that out, you've got me thinking. Since Void was the first member of the God Hand and Skull Knight (assuming he IS in fact Emperor Gaiseric) was ruler 1000 years ago (roughly around the same time Void was inducted into the God Hand), what if Skull Knight had something to do with Void becoming a member of the God Hand. Maybe Void (attempted to) sacrificed Skull Knight to become a member of the God Hand. This would explain why Skull Knight looks out for Guts, since they would share the same happenings.

...Or probably not lol. I'm probably over thinking things eh?

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008, 03:34:29 AM »
Uh oh, the fallacy flood gates have been opened!  :guts: Seriously though, there are about a billion threads on this exact subject. In fact, I'd say Skull Knight theories probably hold the award for this website's most meaty speculation content.

Now that you point that out, you've got me thinking. Since Void was the first member of the God Hand
Error. Not a known fact, nor does any evidence support this. Also, the math doesn't work exactly for Void to be within Gaiseric's lifetime. (there's about a ~136 year discrepancy) There could be another explanation for this, but so far we don't have one.

Quote
what if Skull Knight had something to do with Void becoming a member of the God Hand.
That's actually related to what was speculated earlier (and in about 1,000 other threads): Gaiseric imprisoning the human form of Void, the presumed Wiseman/Sage. There's actually an abundance of discussions on this subject, even recently here: The Millennium Harbinger, Page 2 .

Quote
Maybe Void (attempted to) sacrificed Skull Knight to become a member of the God Hand.
Or he sacrificed all those bodies shown at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth in volume 10.  :void:

Quote
I'm probably over thinking things eh?
No more so than we've done here for the past 8 years. Welcome to the forum.  :badbone:

Also, here's what The Idea of Evil revealed in an official SKnet interview back in 2004. The last part is relevant to this discussion:

Over 1000 years ago there was only one world, the Astral. With the rise of ego in humanity through the use of communication and the creation of tools and machinery, humans living within the Astral world desired more control over their own world; a humble, safe existence with more permeance. Reacting to this Will, over time the Astral world slowly cracked down the center to allow for the Human World.  But this split birthed only more innate problems. 

Humanity, in its greed, enslaved the vast, universal powers of the Astral Gods and chained them to its Will. Responding to the rampant chaos of the times, one man willed a worldwide order across the spectrum of the Human World by utilizing the Astral forces, creating an unstoppable army capable of quelling any rebellion.  But the fruits of greed dominant in the Human Will were unsatisfied. 

Responding to the growing dissatisfaction of the polar split, forces within the Astral plane and the Human plane conspired.  Through the labors of one wizard and the sacrifice of an empire, the power of Will that binds the worlds together gave birth to the Ideal world, empowered by the desires of Humans.  I was given form as the Heart of this world's desires.  Acting as an agent of my will, I dubbed this wizard my first Child and sent him forth to assemble the Hand that would in the future, actualize the Human Will.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 10:03:54 PM »
Hey there, sorry to reply a bit late. I had actually half-written the first part of the post before Walter even replied, but somehow didn't find the time to finish it until now!

First question is a quick one. At the part where Farnese and the bird guy enter Mozgus' chamber, Mozgus says that a sage was once imprisoned in the tower by King Gaiseric and was tortured. I thought that Gaiseric was supposed to be one of the good guys, and maybe even the Skull Night..what gives?

Well, it's only a story (meaning it might not be 100% true), and maybe that wiseman deserved it. Also, Gaiseric wasn't depicted as being all that nice in Charlotte's tale either. We won't know what really went down until Miura decides it's time to tell us. Maybe while they'll be in Elfhelm?

What confuses me the most is the first part that Skull Knight says, but what i gather from the other 2 parts is that what Skull Knight is trying to say is that Guts would normally be bound by fate (death), but since he lives within the interstice (due to the brand) he may be exempt from it (fish breaching water's surface)

Anybody have a different interpretation of this?

You've got it wrong. Why are you bringing the notion of "Fate" into this when it isn't mentioned at any time? Skull Knight only talks of the flow of causality and different worlds. I really wish this whole "bound by fate" / "escaping fate by escaping death" thing would finally die. Anyway, you're at least right about the Brand. The reason Guts isn't merely a shadow on the water is because he's branded, and therefore exists within the Interstice. The material world is at the end of the chain, so basically whatever happens in the deeper layers has such a strong impact that usually, people in the material world can't do anything about it. The order of ascendance is Ideal > Spiritual > Material.

And it goes beyond just SK's analogy and the events in the Birth Festival chapter. It's for the same reason that normal soldiers with normal arrows can't harm Griffith, for example.

Anyway, for your problem with what Skull Knight says, don't forget to check Guts' replies. The Skull Knight is meant to talk in a very complicated, archaic way. That's his thing. He's not straight-forward on purpose. And it's even worse in Japanese than in English. I can't help but notice that DH's translation isn't completely accurate, though.

For example, while "moonlight" is a good way to convey what the original means, SK literally talks of the "moon's shadow". It makes sense in Japanese. It's important here because the talk of shadows goes on in their discussion afterwards, but in DH's translation it's not necessarily clear that it's a continuation of the same thing, since the term used changes. Anyway, in addition to what Walter already pointed out, the key parts that are inaccurate in DH's volume to me are those:

Quote
Skull Knight: And also, it had already been there.
Skull Knight: The appearance of the shadow is caused by this…
Skull Knight: It is nothing more than a shadow that came from the land that was shone through the dead sun, and that descended on the far away earth.

Guts: In short, you mean the same thing will happen again?

SK speaks in a contorted manner, but Guts is here to simplify it: the Occultation ceremony will happen again.

SK's last line is particularly interesting, though it's quite hard to convey in English. He says the "shadow" comes from "the land that shone through the dead sun". The land in question is the dimension where the Occultation ceremony happened. "Shone" here should be taken in the sense that it was visible through it. And the end of his line comments on how the earth is situated far away from that strange place.

Quote
Skull Knight: We are already in the flow of causality. As long as we are in this world, we are also nothing more than one of the shadows on the water's surface.

Now for that line, what DH used is contrary to what is actually said. The whole point of SK's speech is that those beyond the physical world aren't merely shadows. It's shown when he concludes that Guts, thanks to his Brand, might be more than just that.



At first I figured this "prisoner" was hinting at Slan, but then I realized that it made more sense if it was Void and so that's what I'm guessing Miura might have been hinting at. Is that a little over speculation given we have no evidence and just one little comment?

The problem is the time line. Following what we know (an Occultation ceremony happens every 216 years), the first member of the current God Hand was born 864 years before Femto. 136 years are missing between that time and the disappearance of Gaiseric's capital city, if we are to believe the tale of its destruction.

Did I missinterpret something or is King Gaiseric obviously portrayed as a villain (from what little we know)?

I wouldn't say that he's "obviously" portrayed as a villain. The details in that tale are vague at best, and from that scene we know that some accounts are contradictory (numbers of angels).

Besides, heavy taxes can be necessary sometimes, especially if you're trying to build a capital city for the empire you've just conquered. Or to maintain order in it, to rebuild throughout the land after countless wars, etc. And the list goes on: building schools and libraries? Building a generalized water / sewer system? It could have been for good stuff. In the same way, the stories of debauchery might have had nothing to do with Gaiseric himself, or might not have been that bad. Or could even have been false, who knows. My point here is just that this sort of stuff is very easy to slant, especially 1000 years after it happened.

Actually yes, I absolutely believe it. Remember how Griffith was as a man and then what the Eclipse did to him, or gave him the chance to do.  I believe it's entirely possible that the skullknight we know now was not always like this. He very well could have been a ruthless emperor and an all out evil human being.

I don't think Griffith's life and personality are especially relevant here. Anyway, do you think Flora would have been friends with a Gaiseric like the one you're describing?

I agree that the "angels" are actually the God Hand. Gaiseric can still be evil though (in my mind).

We don't know what the "angels" were. They certainly couldn't have been the actual God Hand, considering the time it happened.

The idea's only basis is from the look they exchange in volume 13, after Skull Knight bursts into the Eclipse, and he goes straight for Void's big-ass brain.

There's also what SK tells Zodd before entering the tornado. It implies that they know each other to some extent. But then again, SK's talk during his encounter with Slan in the Qliphoth implies the same thing.

I've always thought of Void as the leader of God Hand assuming there is such a thing. This is mostly because he does most if not all of the talking during the eclipse in volume 13. So then it would make sense that he'd take a swing at Void.

Yes. And he's also the one that casts the Brand. Anyway, one little detail I've always found interesting is the placement of each member on the giant hand during the ceremony. Void's on the thumb, which is arguably the most important finger in the human hand.

Also, here's what The Idea of Evil revealed in an official SKnet interview back in 2004. The last part is relevant to this discussion:

Hmm, dare I say the Idea of Evil might have erred on that one? I don't find its word here to be much of a reference. :void:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 08:34:15 PM »
The problem is the time line. Following what we know (an Occultation ceremony happens every 216 years), the first member of the current God Hand was born 864 years before Femto. 136 years are missing between that time and the disappearance of Gaiseric's capital city, if we are to believe the tale of its destruction.

Ah, I forgot to do the math. So we must separate the current God Hand with whatever happened to Gaiseric's city 1,000 years ago.

I wouldn't say that he's "obviously" portrayed as a villain. The details in that tale are vague at best, and from that scene we know that some accounts are contradictory (numbers of angels).

Ok maybe I shouldn't have used the word "obviously" but you also said

Also, Gaiseric wasn't depicted as being all that nice in Charlotte's tale either. We won't know what really went down until Miura decides it's time to tell us.

So that's all I meant. From what Charlotte told us, I thought he was obviously meant to be seen as a "bad guy".

I don't think Griffith's life and personality are especially relevant here. Anyway, do you think Flora would have been friends with a Gaiseric like the one you're describing?

I didn't mean to compare Gaiseric to Griffith. I just wanted to point out that it's possible for a seemingly normal or even the nicest of people to sacrifice what they hold most dear for immortality and power. None of the hawks saw it coming from Griffith. Thats the horrible truth that Guts tried to hide from Rickert for so long. So I figured it was worth mentioning that I could picture a tyrant like Gaiseric after possibly finding out the truth about Idea or the God Hand, to end up choosing a life opposing them and being a "good guy", so to speak.

And about Flora, I wasn't aware Flora knew Skullknight when he was King Gaiseric.  Is there text to support that?  And if she did know him, do we know they were friends at that time?  If a scenario like the one I described above is what happened, then I can see Flora befriending Skullknight afterwords, regardless of his past.  Unless there is text that contradicts that. I haven't read the translation for those volumes and I only can only refer to the Darkhorse versions, so I could be way off.

Yes. And he's also the one that casts the Brand. Anyway, one little detail I've always found interesting is the placement of each member on the giant hand during the ceremony. Void's on the thumb, which is arguably the most important finger in the human hand.

I thought that too and I believe that was a conscience decision.

Hmm, dare I say the Idea of Evil might have erred on that one? I don't find its word here to be much of a reference. :void:

This may be a stupid question but I wasn't around for that interview and looking back, I really don't understand how that interview is reliable. Could you shed some light on that for me? I'm confused.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 08:55:37 PM »
So that's all I meant. From what Charlotte told us, I thought he was obviously meant to be seen as a "bad guy".
You still seem to be missing the point here. It's more like it's obvious that there's a disconnect between what historians were stressing about Gaiseric and what we know of the character of the Skull Knight. He's even shown being expressly heroic in the same volume -- the episode before Charlotte lays down that tale. With that contrast, to me, it's clear that as observers, we're supposed to be questioning the legitimacy of Midland's history.

Quote
And about Flora, I wasn't aware Flora knew Skullknight when he was King Gaiseric.  Is there text to support that?  And if she did know him, do we know they were friends at that time?
It's not as explicit as "I knew him when he wore a crown," but Flora implies she knew him when he was still a human. In Vol 24, she says: "Old friend... I want to believe you still have the heart of a man." (This is Erias' work. I'm unsure of DH's translation right now). And in volume 28, Skull Knight shares a little more about their relationship, but I won't spoil it.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 09:04:32 PM »
It's not as explicit as "I knew him when he wore a crown," but Flora implies she knew him when he was still a human. In Vol 24, she says: "Old friend... I want to believe you still have the heart of a man." And in volume 28, Skull Knight shares a little more about their relationship, but I won't spoil it.

I know Flora has been a friend of Skullknight for a long time, but 1,000 years long?  I guess the "heart of a man" quote may suggest that she knew him when he was human but if thats the only hint then I'd say it's very unclear just how long Flora has known Skullknight.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 09:09:38 PM »
I know Flora has been a friend of Skullknight for a long time, but 1,000 years long?  I guess the "heart of a man" quote may suggest that she knew him when he was human but if thats the only hint then I'd say it's very unclear just how long Flora has known Skullknight.
Well, if Gaiseric = Skull Knight, and Gaiseric lived 1,000 years ago, and Flora implied she knew him as a human, it stands to reason she's no spring chicken herself.  :guts:  And yeah, there is one other hint in a line from Skull Knight in volume 28 regarding "the reasons of time."

As for that Idea of Evil interview, all I'll say is ... you dare question the legitimacy of an EXCLUSIVE SKNET interview?!  :mozgus:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2008, 03:32:27 AM »
In Vol 24, she says: "Old friend... I want to believe you still have the heart of a man." (This is Erias' work. I'm unsure of DH's translation right now).

This is DH's translation:  "Old friend, I want to believe the heart of a man still remains within you."

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2008, 09:19:11 AM »
Ok maybe I shouldn't have used the word "obviously" but you also said

So that's all I meant. From what Charlotte told us, I thought he was obviously meant to be seen as a "bad guy".

Something poses a problem in what I just quoted. Can you find what it is?

Answer: It's the fact you repeated the same thing after saying you shouldn't have said it in the first place.

I didn't mean to compare Gaiseric to Griffith. I just wanted to point out that it's possible for a seemingly normal or even the nicest of people to sacrifice what they hold most dear for immortality and power.

Griffith wasn't "seemingly normal", nor "the nicest of people". And he had a lot of circumstances. While many connexions can be established between Gaiseric's tale and Griffith's life, I just don't think it's a very good example you chose in this context.

So I figured it was worth mentioning that I could picture a tyrant like Gaiseric after possibly finding out the truth about Idea or the God Hand, to end up choosing a life opposing them and being a "good guy", so to speak.

Who hasn't thought about that before? "Maybe, rather than fighting for good, he simply opposes the God Hand because they have wronged him?" That's nothing new (you'll find many old posts speculating that SK is a former member of the God Hand if you search), but later elements don't corroborate this theory.

And about Flora, I wasn't aware Flora knew Skullknight when he was King Gaiseric.  Is there text to support that?  And if she did know him, do we know they were friends at that time?

Read volumes 24 to 28.

I thought that too and I believe that was a conscience decision.

Conscious, you mean? Man, make an effort with spelling, seriously... It'll end up confusing people otherwise.

This may be a stupid question but I wasn't around for that interview and looking back, I really don't understand how that interview is reliable. Could you shed some light on that for me? I'm confused.

Oh? An interview of the Idea of Evil doesn't seem reliable to you? How could this be? :schierke: Nah, you really want to know? It's just something Walter wrote. I feel bad having to actually tell you so...

I know Flora has been a friend of Skullknight for a long time, but 1,000 years long?  I guess the "heart of a man" quote may suggest that she knew him when he was human but if thats the only hint then I'd say it's very unclear just how long Flora has known Skullknight.

Like Walter said, what actually confirms it beyond the shadow of a doubt is this scene:

Quote from: Episode 237
Skull Knight: It is true, that armour is something I wore
Skull Knight: Long ago, when we were ones who were still in the reasons of time
Schierke: Reasons of time....then this person...
Skull Knight: We were friends, just like how you two are now

And before you ask, "we" refers to SK and Flora, and "reasons of time" refers to being of a "normal" age. So yes, ~1000 years.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 01:30:00 AM »
Boy Aaz, you really know how to make me feel stupid.

Quote
Read volumes 24 to 28.

This was a little mean because I KNEW they were old friends, I just didn't know HOW long, or how you guys knew. But the quote from episode 237 confirms it for me that it was 1,000 years long. Thanks for clearing that up. I can sleep now.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2008, 09:07:49 AM »
Boy Aaz, you really know how to make me feel stupid.

Hahaha nah, don't say that, you'll make me feel bad. It's really not the goal, even though I'm a tad cranky sometimes. :griffnotevil:

This was a little mean because I KNEW they were old friends, I just didn't know HOW long, or how you guys knew. But the quote from episode 237 confirms it for me that it was 1,000 years long. Thanks for clearing that up. I can sleep now.

Well, what I meant by that is that there's a lot in what we see of Flora that implies she's lived for a very long time and knew SK from when he wasn't like he is now. Sometimes you can get a certain feeling from a scene without it being necessarily conveyed by the text, you know what I mean? I wasn't implying you hadn't read them or anything like that.

Offline bitterbeings

Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 08:27:46 PM »
You've got it wrong. Why are you bringing the notion of "Fate" into this when it isn't mentioned at any time? Skull Knight only talks of the flow of causality and different worlds. I really wish this whole "bound by fate" / "escaping fate by escaping death" thing would finally die. Anyway, you're at least right about the Brand. The reason Guts isn't merely a shadow on the water is because he's branded, and therefore exists within the Interstice. The material world is at the end of the chain, so basically whatever happens in the deeper layers has such a strong impact that usually, people in the material world can't do anything about it. The order of ascendance is Ideal > Spiritual > Material.

Yea, when I made this topic I had a pretty loose understanding of Skull Knight's statements so I grasped at straws to come to a conclusion.  I figured that by the fish (Guts) jumping out of the water, he would be avoiding death; being that Guts' ultimate fate was chosen to be Griffith's sacrifice (the flow of causality.) I guess that I failed to make the connection to the birth ceremony and didn't think of Griffith's incarnation or Casca's death as being a part of the flow of causality.

Anyways, after reading through the rest of the conviction arc and reading Walter and yours input everything seems to be cleared up... again, thanks for the thorough responses guys.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight questions...
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2008, 09:11:23 PM »
being that Guts' ultimate fate was chosen to be Griffith's sacrifice (the flow of causality.)

Well, he was sacrificed anyway; he just managed to survive the ceremony. :void:

Anyways, after reading through the rest of the conviction arc and reading Walter and yours input everything seems to be cleared up... again, thanks for the thorough responses guys.

You're welcome. Don't hesitate to ask any other question you might have. :serpico: