ARGH!!!! Censorship!!!
- Thread starter Fishbomb
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Ah.
So Guts is the official translation, and that's that? Funny, really. I recently read this interview with Miura:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/mangol/interview.html
It's in German (duh) and seems connected to the German release of Berserk.
"PM: Und wie hieß Guts ursprünglich? Hatten sie schon ein Namen für ihn?
KM: Nein (lacht). Ich habe den Namen erst erfunden, kurz bevor ich die Story fertigmachte. Ich dachte, der Held eines Comics für Jugendliche brauchte einen harten Namen. Und dieser Name klang irgendwie deutsch in meinen Ohren, und deshalb gefiel er mir so gut. Es gibt tausend schöne, wohlklingende Namen, aber ich habe eben dieses ehr trockene Wort gewählt, da es ja ein Comic für Kids werden sollte. Später erst habe ich erfahren, daß ein deutsches Substantiv gibt, das so ähnlich klingt, das "Katze" bedeutet. Ich erinnere mich nicht genau, "Kazze" oder "Gazze". Und das schien mir sehr passend für den Charakter von Guts, der ja eine Wildkatze gleicht. Aber das ist nur ein merkwürdiger Zufall, auf den ich erst später aufmerksam wurde."
Now this is an excerpt. I don't claim to be an expert German speaker, and I'm open to the possibility that I may be misstaken, but...
... it seems to me Miura picked the name because he 'thought it sounded German', as well as being 'hard' and kind of 'sharp'.
He seems to appreciate that he later found out that the German word 'Katz(e)' sounds a lot like 'G@atts(u)'. He goes on at some length about how fitting he thinks this is, since 'Guts' is pretty reminiscent of a wildcat.
Whereas 'Guts' in English is pretty damn stupid. Especially since it's not 'just a sound' with cool and interesting connotations, but an actual word.
This, to me, is a FINE reason to defend 'G@tts' as a translation. Because that seems much closer to Miuras original intent - a cool sounding, original word/sound which you are free to attach your own connotations to.
Guts, by comparison, seems flat, stupid and blatantly over the top.
And of course Miura is going to stick by the 'official translation'. It's commercial suicide, or at least bad form, to go out and complain about localization work on your own product. The fact that whoever came up with this 'official English translation' did a shoddy job is not an excuse for us to stop thinking.
So Guts is the official translation, and that's that? Funny, really. I recently read this interview with Miura:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/mangol/interview.html
It's in German (duh) and seems connected to the German release of Berserk.
"PM: Und wie hieß Guts ursprünglich? Hatten sie schon ein Namen für ihn?
KM: Nein (lacht). Ich habe den Namen erst erfunden, kurz bevor ich die Story fertigmachte. Ich dachte, der Held eines Comics für Jugendliche brauchte einen harten Namen. Und dieser Name klang irgendwie deutsch in meinen Ohren, und deshalb gefiel er mir so gut. Es gibt tausend schöne, wohlklingende Namen, aber ich habe eben dieses ehr trockene Wort gewählt, da es ja ein Comic für Kids werden sollte. Später erst habe ich erfahren, daß ein deutsches Substantiv gibt, das so ähnlich klingt, das "Katze" bedeutet. Ich erinnere mich nicht genau, "Kazze" oder "Gazze". Und das schien mir sehr passend für den Charakter von Guts, der ja eine Wildkatze gleicht. Aber das ist nur ein merkwürdiger Zufall, auf den ich erst später aufmerksam wurde."
Now this is an excerpt. I don't claim to be an expert German speaker, and I'm open to the possibility that I may be misstaken, but...
... it seems to me Miura picked the name because he 'thought it sounded German', as well as being 'hard' and kind of 'sharp'.
He seems to appreciate that he later found out that the German word 'Katz(e)' sounds a lot like 'G@atts(u)'. He goes on at some length about how fitting he thinks this is, since 'Guts' is pretty reminiscent of a wildcat.
Whereas 'Guts' in English is pretty damn stupid. Especially since it's not 'just a sound' with cool and interesting connotations, but an actual word.
This, to me, is a FINE reason to defend 'G@tts' as a translation. Because that seems much closer to Miuras original intent - a cool sounding, original word/sound which you are free to attach your own connotations to.
Guts, by comparison, seems flat, stupid and blatantly over the top.
And of course Miura is going to stick by the 'official translation'. It's commercial suicide, or at least bad form, to go out and complain about localization work on your own product. The fact that whoever came up with this 'official English translation' did a shoddy job is not an excuse for us to stop thinking.
Vampire_Hunter_Bob
Cats are great
The Dragon Slayer said:
From what I remember from an older thread Zoddo is how his name is spelled.
Vampire_Hunter_Bob
Cats are great
Darok said:
I'm looking for that thread, so fucking wait.
Tymos said:
Thanks Tymos, my german is more than a bit rusty (ie non existent).
But yeah, can anyone remember where people got the impression that Miura wanted it to be 'Guts'?
I seem to remember this discussion from before, but never paid it much heed. That is... before the site started changing the things that I wrote.
I mean... if I wanted to write Griffith as Grifisu I can do that...
Why not G.a.t.t.s / G.a.t.t.s.u?
I always thought the "romanization" of our hero's name was "GA"+"T"(little tsu)+"TSU", so i thought it should be written G-a-t-t-s-u.
But if you consider how the name sounds, to pronounce it correctly in english it has to be written Guts.
My conclusion is that neither G-a-t-t-s-u nor Guts is wrong, it depends if you want it to be written correctly transliterated in roomaji or to be written as it sounds...
However, I have very poor knowledge of Japanese language, so maybe I'm wrong.
And if miura expressely said that he want it to be written Guts, it has to be as he wants.
But I still don't agree with this kind of censorship :-\
But if you consider how the name sounds, to pronounce it correctly in english it has to be written Guts.
My conclusion is that neither G-a-t-t-s-u nor Guts is wrong, it depends if you want it to be written correctly transliterated in roomaji or to be written as it sounds...
However, I have very poor knowledge of Japanese language, so maybe I'm wrong.
And if miura expressely said that he want it to be written Guts, it has to be as he wants.
But I still don't agree with this kind of censorship :-\
Sancho Panza said:
I am with you there. All I am asking is for the right to choose.
If there is something I HATE, it is to have choices made for me.
Why the censorship Walther?
Seriously? If you are reading this thread, please give me a satisfactory answer.
Vampire_Hunter_Bob
Cats are great
Fishbomb said:
I haven't seen him on in the past week. :-\
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Wow, a whole thread of new G A T T S words to censor! Thanks for the suggestions. HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh yeah, and keep those Miura/Guts/Gatts conspiracy theories coming; pretty damn funny. My favorite is how the name pains him but changing it now would be commercial suicide. Awww, poor wishy washy Kentarou Miura!
Anyway, I’m the evil name dictator, not Walt. But, since there’s been such an outcry, and even an oldskooler from all the way back from BSOM, who I’d hate to see leave again, thinks it’s wrong; I’ll change it. Hey, I used to be a fervent “Gatts-er”, myself.
But once she’s gone again, I’m switching right back to evil, I swear. ;)
-Griffith
P.S. The door swings both ways; maybe you guys should at least consider Guts is his actual name? I mean, the whole “GUTS” IS A CONSPIRACY!!!!111@2 movement is a little… reaching. Acceptance is healthy. =)
Oh yeah, and keep those Miura/Guts/Gatts conspiracy theories coming; pretty damn funny. My favorite is how the name pains him but changing it now would be commercial suicide. Awww, poor wishy washy Kentarou Miura!
Anyway, I’m the evil name dictator, not Walt. But, since there’s been such an outcry, and even an oldskooler from all the way back from BSOM, who I’d hate to see leave again, thinks it’s wrong; I’ll change it. Hey, I used to be a fervent “Gatts-er”, myself.
But once she’s gone again, I’m switching right back to evil, I swear. ;)
-Griffith
P.S. The door swings both ways; maybe you guys should at least consider Guts is his actual name? I mean, the whole “GUTS” IS A CONSPIRACY!!!!111@2 movement is a little… reaching. Acceptance is healthy. =)
Hey there Griffith! *smiles*
And this is what I get for sticking up for your alter ego in the 'Is Griffith evil' thread. *melodramatic sigh* You truly are the face of evil then... *winks*
Seriously though, I don't really care either way as long as I can call him what I like. I'm a sticker when it comes to someone changing my words for me...
Another thing Griffith... I do have the vaguest feeling that someone else has cited an interview where Miura said something about 'Guts'. Can you remember where it was, or why people got so set on the fact that it should be 'Guts' anyway?
And I don't really think it's a conspiracy theory, it's just that people have read him saying different things... of course people start wondering. And about authors being wishy washy... I don't think it's that, it's more like they don't have much to say about how things are done once their work is released in other places. I mean I'd hate to think that he would have approved the rather pathetic american edition of things...
*just has a serious case of deja vu about this whole discussion*
Oh well, as long as I can say G-a-t-t-s I'm happy. I don't care if it's 'official' to say Guts, it just sound plain silly to me.
Nice to be back by the way... *grins*
*tests* Gatts...
And this is what I get for sticking up for your alter ego in the 'Is Griffith evil' thread. *melodramatic sigh* You truly are the face of evil then... *winks*
Seriously though, I don't really care either way as long as I can call him what I like. I'm a sticker when it comes to someone changing my words for me...
Another thing Griffith... I do have the vaguest feeling that someone else has cited an interview where Miura said something about 'Guts'. Can you remember where it was, or why people got so set on the fact that it should be 'Guts' anyway?
And I don't really think it's a conspiracy theory, it's just that people have read him saying different things... of course people start wondering. And about authors being wishy washy... I don't think it's that, it's more like they don't have much to say about how things are done once their work is released in other places. I mean I'd hate to think that he would have approved the rather pathetic american edition of things...
*just has a serious case of deja vu about this whole discussion*
Oh well, as long as I can say G-a-t-t-s I'm happy. I don't care if it's 'official' to say Guts, it just sound plain silly to me.
Nice to be back by the way... *grins*
*tests* Gatts...
BOB
poruno sutâ
Tymos said:
whoops i'm german so here we go:
PM: So what was G.A.T.T.S (
) original name? Did you already have a name for him?KM: No (laughs). I only came up with the name shortly before i finished the story. I thought that a comic hero for adolescents had to have a tough name. This name somehow sounded german in my ears, therefore i liked it that much. There are thousands of nice, soft sounding names but i chose this brut sounding word as it was supposed to be a comic for kids. Later i came to know that there's also a noun that sounds similar, "Katze" (means cat in english - bob). I can't really recall it, "Kazze" or "Gazze". That seemed fitting to me for guts character who is similar to a wildcat. But that's just a strange coincidence which i was made aware of later.
Berserk is for kids?BOB said:
The Dragon Slayer said:Berserk is for kids?
*grins* well, that is the thing that I admire most.
Miura goes with a character description that should make the lamest comic ever (big sword, demons, shotgun arm) and is published in a rather bad magazine mostly for naked tits for teenage boys...
And he comes up with this brilliant work!!!
*grins* That is what I love about the world. Sometimes it surprises me a lot.
Vampire_Hunter_Bob
Cats are great
The Dragon Slayer said:Berserk is for kids?
You're telling me you didn't know!
I do now...Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:You're telling me you didn't know!
I'm just used to all that stupid "protect the children" bullshit.
I love my country! ::)
Vampire_Hunter_Bob
Cats are great
The Dragon Slayer said:
Maybe we should mail bomb them.
Wereallmad
I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Oh, not this one again.
You guys do know that there are 'semi-offical' ways of spelling english words in japan, right? If you pick up a Japanese-English/English-japanese dictionary, you'll see that most of these loan words have an offical spelling. There is definately a right way and a wrong way to pronounce certain english/french/italian/whatever words in japanese, and they don't always make as much sense as one would think, but they just ARE spelled a certain way, and only a certain way.
As far as I know, ƒKƒbƒc IS Guts. I don't believe it's even debatable. I see the english word 'guts' written this commonly, and I believe it is the offical spelling of 'guts'. JWPce's dictionary agrees with me:
ƒKƒbƒc (n)guts,(p)
ƒKƒbƒcƒ|[ƒY (n) guts pose (triumphant pose assumed by an athlete), (P)
The only example I can think of, off hand, that most of you might know is 'GutsMan' in the megaman series. Download a Japanese rom and check out how his name is spelled.
If you do a search on google for 'ƒKƒbƒc', you'll come across a few companies that use the english word 'Guts' in their titles.
I'll admit, sometimes you'll see an author take liberties. For instance, if you check JWPce's dictionary, you'll find 'Berserk' is 'ƒxƒ‹ƒZƒ‹ƒN' (The same way Miura spells it). But I have seen it pronounced in a way that would imply it were written 'ƒo[ƒU[ƒJ'. With the case of Guts, however, I really don't see much, if any room for alternate interprations. Imo it's just a stupid meme that got created by a brain dead fansub group that forgot to check a competant dictionary.
Olivier is free to swat me down like a mosquito on a hot summer day if I'm wrong about any of this (and it wouldn't surprise me if I were.
And really, people, all this isn't nessesary. It's common sense as far as I'm concerned. Yes, it sounds goofy and akward, but get over it. This is Miura's story, not yours.
You guys do know that there are 'semi-offical' ways of spelling english words in japan, right? If you pick up a Japanese-English/English-japanese dictionary, you'll see that most of these loan words have an offical spelling. There is definately a right way and a wrong way to pronounce certain english/french/italian/whatever words in japanese, and they don't always make as much sense as one would think, but they just ARE spelled a certain way, and only a certain way.
As far as I know, ƒKƒbƒc IS Guts. I don't believe it's even debatable. I see the english word 'guts' written this commonly, and I believe it is the offical spelling of 'guts'. JWPce's dictionary agrees with me:
ƒKƒbƒc (n)guts,(p)
ƒKƒbƒcƒ|[ƒY (n) guts pose (triumphant pose assumed by an athlete), (P)
The only example I can think of, off hand, that most of you might know is 'GutsMan' in the megaman series. Download a Japanese rom and check out how his name is spelled.
If you do a search on google for 'ƒKƒbƒc', you'll come across a few companies that use the english word 'Guts' in their titles.
I'll admit, sometimes you'll see an author take liberties. For instance, if you check JWPce's dictionary, you'll find 'Berserk' is 'ƒxƒ‹ƒZƒ‹ƒN' (The same way Miura spells it). But I have seen it pronounced in a way that would imply it were written 'ƒo[ƒU[ƒJ'. With the case of Guts, however, I really don't see much, if any room for alternate interprations. Imo it's just a stupid meme that got created by a brain dead fansub group that forgot to check a competant dictionary.
Olivier is free to swat me down like a mosquito on a hot summer day if I'm wrong about any of this (and it wouldn't surprise me if I were.
And really, people, all this isn't nessesary. It's common sense as far as I'm concerned. Yes, it sounds goofy and akward, but get over it. This is Miura's story, not yours.
BOB:
-----
Thank you for translating the excerpt. I'm glad to learn I didn't mess up too much. *bows*
Griffith:
--------
It's not very polite to poke fun at other people's arguments whilst failing to produce arguments of your own.
Come to think of it, you did come up with an argument, along the lines of; 'I don't care what most people say or do, but I want to stay on the good time of our regulars, so I'll change it.'
This seems like a strange attitude for a forum administrator. At least if you consider it a discussion forum.
Wereallmad:
-------------
Here's my argument: From the interview (link and excerpt posted above), it seems obvious that Miura didn't pick the name for Berserk's main character because of its litteral meaning.
It seems he chose it because of the connotations it brought, amoung these the fact that he thought it 'sounded German'. He also relished the associations brought on by the name, and different, similar-sounding words.
I argue that 'Guts' is a poor English translation because it is a word with an undeniable litteral meaning. It's hard to associate it with anything but guts. Granted, guts has a few meanings, 'courage', 'belly' and 'intestines'. But it's still pretty meager. And kind of stupid.
Also, it doesn't sound German ;)
People are free to translate anywhichway they want. But there are such things are good and bad translations. If you don't agree with this, I'm sure you'd be just as happy if Dark Horse choose to translate 'Charlotte's' name to 'Dump truck'.
If a translation looses the poetic qualities of the original, it is my personal opinion that it is a bad translation. If a translation narrows the scope of an expression or word severely, as compared to the original, this too, is a bad translation. To me.
Bottom line:
------------
There's a credible argument to support the view that 'Guts' is a poor translation.
Dark Horse has finalized 'Guts' as their translation, making it official.
It is reasonable to consider the official translation a poor translation.
I don't like poor translations.
-----
Thank you for translating the excerpt. I'm glad to learn I didn't mess up too much. *bows*
Griffith:
--------
It's not very polite to poke fun at other people's arguments whilst failing to produce arguments of your own.
Come to think of it, you did come up with an argument, along the lines of; 'I don't care what most people say or do, but I want to stay on the good time of our regulars, so I'll change it.'
This seems like a strange attitude for a forum administrator. At least if you consider it a discussion forum.
Wereallmad:
-------------
Here's my argument: From the interview (link and excerpt posted above), it seems obvious that Miura didn't pick the name for Berserk's main character because of its litteral meaning.
It seems he chose it because of the connotations it brought, amoung these the fact that he thought it 'sounded German'. He also relished the associations brought on by the name, and different, similar-sounding words.
I argue that 'Guts' is a poor English translation because it is a word with an undeniable litteral meaning. It's hard to associate it with anything but guts. Granted, guts has a few meanings, 'courage', 'belly' and 'intestines'. But it's still pretty meager. And kind of stupid.
Also, it doesn't sound German ;)
People are free to translate anywhichway they want. But there are such things are good and bad translations. If you don't agree with this, I'm sure you'd be just as happy if Dark Horse choose to translate 'Charlotte's' name to 'Dump truck'.
If a translation looses the poetic qualities of the original, it is my personal opinion that it is a bad translation. If a translation narrows the scope of an expression or word severely, as compared to the original, this too, is a bad translation. To me.
Bottom line:
------------
There's a credible argument to support the view that 'Guts' is a poor translation.
Dark Horse has finalized 'Guts' as their translation, making it official.
It is reasonable to consider the official translation a poor translation.
I don't like poor translations.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Tymos said:
Fuck you and the confused horse you rode in on, shit for brains. Yeah, I felt kind of like a tool lifting the ban considering how I loathe people that can’t get GUTS fucking name straight and will go to ridiculous lengths to bastardize the story over their fucking personal preference. “It sounds dumb.” Fuck you, don’t read Berserk then, or at least don’t bring that bullshit around here. I guess the holidays and Fish coming back got me all warm and fuzzy for the old days when this place wasn’t overflowing with assholes like yourself. Moment over. Fuck anyone that can’t type Guts.
"People are free to translate anywhichway they want. But there are such things are good and bad translations. If you don't agree with this, I'm sure you'd be just as happy if Dark Horse choose to translate 'Charlotte's' name to 'Dump truck'."
Here’s a “translation” of that: "I'm an idiot and I make abstract examples to sort of justify the point that I'm a fuckass"
Gee, I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m trying to curry favor among the ignorant masses?
Happy Turkey Day,
-Griffith
P.S. Oh, and YOU’RE WELCOME!
Wereallmad
I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Tymos said:
Did you miss the part where I said that is the offical spelling of Guts? I don't mean Miura's spelling of Guts, but you can look it up in a japanese dictionary. It'd be like argueing with me over the spelling of 馬鹿【ばか】baka. It simply IS that word.
I dunno how you suspend logic long enough to cover a post that wordy, but seriously, congratulations.
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