Gods in Berserk

[manvsdestiny]

For some reason people dont talk about it enough but flora mentioned there are gods of polytheism in berserk big astral bodies that looklovecraftian and the beings are called angels demons or gods reminds me of but the Godhand arent gods but technichally the fingers of a god called the God of the abyss which we know absolutely nothing about and has been keeping itself a mystery.Maybe theres a god that has been helping guts all along,possibly banished by a evil force 1,000 years ago and now only resides in the astral realm,or maybe some deitys are gonna be a usefull resource for The godhands defeat.

 

[Aazealh]

You've misunderstood what Flora was talking about. Many powerful beings exist in the ethereal world and they are perceived differently by different people. Her point was that in polytheistic religions, some can be perceived as gods, just like they could be perceived as angels or demons in monotheistic religions.

big astral bodies that looklovecraftian

There's no indication of how they look. But typically, the Kundalini which Daiba was using during the battle in Vritannis could be considered a snake god by some. And since you speak of Lovecraftian, we have the direct example of the Sea God, which was a gigantic sea monster.

the beings are called angels demons or gods reminds me of

That's on purpose.

but the Godhand arent gods but technichally the fingers of a god called the God of the abyss which we know absolutely nothing about and has been keeping itself a mystery.

The God Hand is a group of people and yes, they are servants of the God of the Abyss, which is a very powerful yet shadowy being. We do know quite a bit about it, though. We know it was created by humans, we know where it resides, and we can surmise how it does what it does with the help of the non-canon episode 83.

Maybe theres a god that has been helping guts all along,possibly banished by a evil force 1,000 years ago and now only resides in the astral realm,or maybe some deitys are gonna be a usefull resource for The godhands defeat.

There's no reason to believe "a god" out there somewhere has been helping Guts along without ever being revealed. That's not really the message of the series. But there are very powerful ethereal beings who have helped our heroes along the way, like the four kings or the various elemental spirits Schierke has been summoning. And before Miura passed away, the concept of Daimon had been introduced, which would have likely played a key role in the future as well.

You may also be interested in this thread about causality I wrote some years ago: causality's countercurrent.

 

[manvsdestiny]

You may also be interested in this thread about causality I wrote some years ago: causality's countercurrent.

ive read that thread but what do you think about the beherit guts is carying and that puck a non human is interacting with it considering beherits are evil artifacts from the idea of evil intended for human desire but a elf an benelovent astral being has developed a bond with it .

the concept of Daimon had been introduced, which would have likely played a key role in the future as well.

With how gedflynn talks about Daimons it seems not everyone goes to the vortex of souls after death and maybe a place wih those with strong egos avoid the vortex and end up there.

 

[Aazealh]

ive read that thread but what do you think about the beherit guts is carying and that puck a non human is interacting with it considering beherits are evil artifacts from the idea of evil intended for human desire but a elf an benelovent astral being has developed a bond with it .

Well, like I said in the thread, I think the idea that Puck could disrupt the link between the beherit and its master is very interesting.

With how gedflynn talks about Daimons it seems not everyone goes to the vortex of souls after death and maybe a place wih those with strong egos avoid the vortex and end up there.

Yeah that's the idea. Although, just be to clear, only souls with bad karma end up in the vortex anyway.

 

[SlyapBG]

Berserk presents a battle between Dharmic beliefs and Abrahamic ones. Abrahamic religions, at least in the case of Christianity, supplanted older polytheistic, "Dharmic-like" beliefs of pagan Europe partly by euphemism and partly by keeping the old deities around, under different roles and classes. Some were removed outright, like Neptune, Minerva, Orcus, etc; and others were transformed, like Odin into Coifi. This seems to be mirrored in Berserk's universe, since the religion of the Holy See is an obvious stand-in for Christianity. Four or five angels vs four kings of the elements, the latter is more than likely an allusion to the Four Heavenly Kings in our world. Humans worshipped or were in relations with spiritual beings prior to the religion's expansion. I'm not sure where thematically Miura was going to go with this idea. It would be kind of dumb if gods of polytheistic beliefs suddenly ganged up on the Idea of Evil, though.

 

[Aazealh]

Berserk presents a battle between Dharmic beliefs and Abrahamic ones.

No, not really. That's not at all how the story present things. Rather, as Flora and Schierke explain it, various people view the same beings in different ways. But within Berserk's world, there's no doubt as to what is actually real or not.

While Miura drew inspiration from real-world elements to construct his fantasy world, the stakes and relation between them are completely different.

 

[SlyapBG]

No, not really. That's not at all how the story present things. Rather, as Flora and Schierke explain it, various people view the same beings in different ways. But within Berserk's world, there's no doubt as to what is actually real or not.

I don't really agree, the manga depicts the Christian-like religion of the obviously Western-like world of its universe as a harmful instrument in the plans of the villains. Meanwhile, the spirits before the religion are depicted at least as beneficial.

@Aazealh :
While Miura drew inspiration from real-world elements to construct his fantasy world, the stakes and relation between them are completely different.

Maybe. I guess a nail into my argument would be that Ganishka's presumably native faith, presumably some form of Hinduism, didn't save him from the God Hand's plans and he chose to become an apostle.

 

[Aazealh]

I don't really agree, the manga depicts the Christian-like religion of the obviously Western-like world of its universe as a harmful instrument in the plans of the villains.

But there's no emphasis on a "battle between dharmic and abrahamic beliefs", which is what you were saying. There is only what's true and what isn't. The Holy See's religion is essentially a sham and an instrument of the villains, as you say yourself. The truth of the world is known to the reader (and to knowledgeable people like magic users). It's different from our case in the real world where religions are just a matter of faith with no observable truth to them.

 

[SlyapBG]

But there's no emphasis on a "battle between dharmic and abrahamic beliefs", which is what you were saying. There is only what's true and what isn't. The Holy See's religion is essentially a sham and an instrument of the villains, as you say yourself. The truth of the world is known to the reader (and to knowledgeable people like magic users). It's different from our case where religions are just a matter of faith with no observable truth to them.

I guess I could be reading too much into it, which led to my thought process being something like, "since the villains created the Christian-like religion, it must mean that the author is criticising Christianity".

 

[Aazealh]

I guess I could be reading too much into it, which led to my thought process being something like, "since the villains created the Christian-like religion, it must mean that the author is criticising Christianity".

I don't have a quote at hand, but Miura actually said in old interviews that it's not meant to be viewed as a criticism of Christianity. He simply took inspiration from parts of it to create his own thing. Same with magic. It's all rooted in his efforts to construct a fantasy world that feels real and gritty.

 

[SlyapBG]

I don't have a quote at hand, but Miura actually said in old interviews that it's not meant to be viewed as a criticism of Christianity. He simply took inspiration from parts of it to create his own thing. Same with magic. It's all rooted in his efforts to construct a fantasy world that feels real and gritty.

I see.

 

[Walter]

Miura actually said in old interviews that it's not meant to be viewed as a criticism of Christianity. He simply took inspiration from parts of it to create his own thing.

Here's one instance where he talked about religious influences in the 2016 Guidebook interview:

First of all, the movie The Name of the Rose is the inspiration for the Conviction arc. From there I added a witch hunt, giving me the notion to depict the darker aspects of religion. There's a lot of variety within religion, but when I thought of a character who'd be the overall embodiment of religious fundamentalism, I arrived at Mozgus. Doctrine comes first, and mankind comes after. He's a further exaggeration of that. All religions to some extent take something above and beyond the laws of reality and human thought and treat it as absolute. When you exaggerate that idea, that's what you end up with.

 

[manvsdestiny]

only souls with bad karma end up in the vortex anyway

What exactly is "karma" in berserk is it like in buddhism where karma dictates where you are going after death and does guts have negative or good karma.

 

[Aazealh]

What exactly is "karma" in berserk is it like in buddhism where karma dictates where you are going after death

Well yeah, that's why the souls with bad karma go to "hell". We don't have much more information than that.

does guts have negative or good karma.

We don't know, but it's probably not great at the moment. He's bound for the Vortex of Souls in any case, because of the Brand.

 

[manvsdestiny]

Probably not great at the moment. He's bound for the Vortex of Souls in any case, because of the Brand.

I would genuinely hate a berserk ending where casca and guts end up in the vortex of souls i doubt there gonna have that brand forever how the brand gets removed tho.....maybe moonlight boy or volvapa,I also think void created the brand.

 

[Aazealh]

I would genuinely hate a berserk ending where casca and guts end up in the vortex of souls

I don't think that's what Miura had in mind for the ending.

 

[blodvind]

Yeah that's the idea. Although, just be to clear, only souls with bad karma end up in the vortex anyway.

What happens with those with good karma?

I understand some people, after they die, remain in the insterstice for a while, and then what?

It seems to me that being and apostle and/or being branded means absolute bad karma (-). Is this correct or is there any way to negate that bad karma so that it becomes good?

 

[Walter]

What happens with those with good karma?

I understand some people, after they die, remain in the insterstice for a while, and then what?

We don’t have extensive information on the afterlife, because it’s been brought up only a few times in the series. But Flora implies that an alternative to the vortex exists for those with good karma, so I believe her.

It seems to me that being and apostle and/or being branded means absolute bad karma (-). Is this correct or is there any way to negate that bad karma so that it becomes good?

Here’s how I’ve answered this one in the past:

As for what the God Hand said in volume 3, yeah, they very generally say that those "caught up in the affairs" of the God Hand/apostles are destined for the Vortex. But where does one draw the line in a broad statement like that? I've written about it in the past, and my conclusion is that it has to do with what Flora calls hellfire (or karmic fire). Guts and Vargas are perfect examples. Because of his brand, Guts was always going to end up in the vortex. But with Vargas, even without a brand, his life was ruined by his encounter with an apostle, and he became obsessed, warped. Hence, hellfire. I liken it to the wrecking ball effect of what happens when humans cross paths with apostles: they either die horribly or have traumatic encounters that scar their lives forever, thus whatever their life's trajectory was, it becomes warped in the direction of a haunted, terrible experience.

 

[Aazealh]

What happens with those with good karma?

Presumably they end up in another part of that "great ocean of souls".

We also know that exceptional people can become Daimons instead, but we don't have more detailed information on the matter.

I understand some people, after they die, remain in the insterstice for a while, and then what?

Eventually they move on.