Griffith and the God Hand

Having read through quite a lot of the forum threads already I gather some people here don't empathise with or condone Griffith's actions so I won't even go there. However lets dial it back a second (i'll be using the DH translations here so if inaccurate, apologies) What is Griffith actually getting out of this deal with the God Hand? Paraphasing: "A kindgom in return for his flesh and blood", surely it can't be that simple? The Count was eventually asked to surrender his own daughter's Soul merely to renew his body, yet Griffith gets a whole kingdom for his human body? I can't help but wonder if more is going on with that thread and if Griffith hasn't actually been used for a greater payment to be claimed from him later?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I'll get into specifics, but on the whole you're thinking of sacrifices and such in terms of a transaction, or a business proposal, when really it's more like a path taken to become more evil, in the trappings of a contract. Read the details of the Count's sacrifice scene, and what the God Hand members say about the importance of the sacrifice. The significance of it isn't another dead human/s. It tears at a person's soul, letting evil in.

Apostle Judeau said:
Having read through quite a lot of the forum threads already I gather some people here don't empathise with or condone Griffith's actions so I won't even go there.
It's tough to empathize with a guy who had his friends slaughtered to inherit evil power and manipulate the world, raped his friend and comrade, "feels nothing" upon meeting them again, etc., etc. However, it's not like we hate the guy or anything. I've never quite understood that feeling either.

If you're interested in the subject, you should really listen to our three-part podcast on Griffith where we go into great detail about his character and motivations. http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13617.0

What is Griffith actually getting out of this deal with the God Hand? Paraphasing: "A kindgom in return for his flesh and blood", surely it can't be that simple?
It's not simple. He became a demigod with dominion over all evil in the world, he also inherited an army of apostles, had the continent bow before him, and literally had the world reshaped in his image. But to get there, he had to give up everything that was dear to him, shed his final tear, become inhuman.

The Count was eventually asked to surrender his own daughter's Soul merely to renew his body, yet Griffith gets a whole kingdom for his human body?
Apostles aren't members of the God Hand.

I can't help but wonder if more is going on with that thread and if Griffith hasn't actually been used for a greater payment to be claimed from him later?
Not sure what you're implying. Could you maybe say a little more about what you mean?
 
Ohh a podcast, i'll be sure to give that a listen. As for The Count I know he was just an Apostle as opposed to Griffith, I was thinking of it in terms of what the use of a Behelit costs the user and Griffith seemed to come off a lot lighter than most.
Walter said:
Not sure what you're implying. Could you maybe say a little more about what you mean?
Well as I understand it Griffith now has what he wanted/asked for: his Kingdom. But aside from corrupting an already corrupt human what did the God Hand get out of it? Was there some other motive for them granting Griffith's ascension?

While I didn't entirely like the Femto look, Griffith is still one of my favourite characters within the series. I have a soft spot for villains and Berserk caters to that very well.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Apostle Judeau said:
I was thinking of it in terms of what the use of a Beherit costs the user and Griffith seemed to come off a lot lighter than most.
I wouldn't say that, considering other apostles we knew well, the Count and Rochine, retained a bit of their humanity as apostles, as evident mostly in their dying moments (God Hand actually comment that the count needed to repeat the ceremony to rid himself of it completely). Whereas Griffith now resembles a husk of what he once was. Griffith died and Femto was born.

Apostle Judeau said:
But what did the God Hand get out of it? Was there some other motive for them granting Griffith's ascension?
His plan aligned with theirs and ultimately brought them into this world.
 
strange that only really Slan has appeared since that time. Not that Griffith was a stand up guy to begin with but if he hadn't had been tortured to the point of insanity would he still have agreed to sacrifice the Hawks, especially Guts, in that way to achieve his dream?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Apostle Judeau said:
strange that only really Slan has appeared since that time.
You must not be caught up on current events. If that's the case, I don't want to spoil you.

Not that Griffith was a stand up guy to begin with but if he hadn't had been tortured to the point of insanity would he still have agreed to sacrifice the Hawks, especially Guts, in that way to achieve his dream?
Probably not.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
What should be kept it mind here is that there is a greater influence behind the God Hand as a whole: the Idea of Evil. Each member of the God Hand has their own goal, but they all converge towards the same result. That's because they've each been brought about by the schemes of that superior entity.
 
"Walter said:
You must not be caught up on current events. If that's the case, I don't want to spoil you.
Thanks, yes I'm only as far as the released Volumes. So I'm only upto Volume 36 in terms of storyline.

[quote author=Aazealh"]
What should be kept it mind here is that there is a greater influence behind the God Hand as a whole: the Idea of Evil. Each member of the God Hand has their own goal, but they all converge towards the same result. That's because they've each been brought about by the schemes of that superior entity.
[/quote]
Now I've heard bits and pieces on the Idea of Evil, is this an active presence in post v.36 content? As I understand it the original tale regarding the IoE wasn't collected in the Volume format?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Apostle Judeau said:
Thanks, yes I'm only as far as the released Volumes. So I'm only upto Volume 36 in terms of storyline.
Then I guess you missed their appearance in volume 34, as they came into this world.

Apostle Judeau said:
Now I've heard bits and pieces on the Idea of Evil, is this an active presence in post v.36 content? As I understand it the original tale regarding the IoE wasn't collected in the Volume format?
Appeared in episode 82 (vol 13); had a conversation with Griffith in episode 83 (which wasn't included in vol 13); mentioned by name in the title of episodes 163-165; existence implied by Flora in vol 24.
 
I'll get into specifics, but on the whole you're thinking of sacrifices and such in terms of a transaction, or a business proposal, when really it's more like a path taken to become more evil, in the trappings of a contract. Read the details of the Count's sacrifice scene, and what the God Hand members say about the importance of the sacrifice. The significance of it isn't another dead human/s. It tears at a person's soul, letting evil in.


It's tough to empathize with a guy who had his friends slaughtered to inherit evil power and manipulate the world, raped his friend and comrade, "feels nothing" upon meeting them again, etc., etc. However, it's not like we hate the guy or anything. I've never quite understood that feeling either.

m.

If you're interested in the subject, you should really listen to our three-part podcast on Griffith where we go into great detail about his character and motivations. http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=13617.0


It's not simple. He became a demigod with dominion over all evil in the world, he also inherited an army of apostles, had the continent bow before him, and literally had the world reshaped in his image. But to get there, he had to give up everything that was dear to him, shed his final tear, become inhuman.


Apostles aren't members of the God Hand.


Not sure what you're implying. Could you maybe say a little more about what you mean?
I just don't see how its hard to understand why people could hate, feel repulsed by or dislike Griffith for what he did. I like the writing in Berserk, so he's a well-written character, but if I imagine any feelings towards him as if I were apart of the narrative, I'd definitely hate him. The type of person Griffith is in the story is the type of person in history I greatly respect but strongly dislike, great ambition and a drive that will bring about conniving actions, letting bad happen to others and doing nothing to stop it, rather to standby and let fate take its course in order to achieve his own dream. I respect, Frank Lucas for example, a drug dealer in the 1960s who sold heroin. In doing so he rose to the top, a black man who was able to look eye to eye with his white peers and fellow criminals. Frank Lucas is respectable in my eyes but he has done a lot of cruel things, so while his ambition to rise to the top was unparalleled it is hard to condone or respect his actions, therefore making it reasonable in my eyes for others to detest hi

I can apply everything I stated above to Griffith, even though Griffith is a fictional character I still can see how people can hate the guy, that's just me. I cannot impose this viewpoint on you, hell, there are things I even like about who Griffith was as a person, Femto's art design is awesome its also inspired by Hellraiser, which I think you covered that fact in the podcast. Anyway, rambling at this point.
 
Last edited:

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I just don't see how its hard to understand why people could hate, feel repulsed by or dislike Griffith for what he did.
A reply to a reply 7 years in the making! :ganishka: It's true that I have a hard time understanding it, but Berserk isn't special in that regard. I think it's a strange phenomenon for people in general to experience deep negative emotions toward a clearly unreal character who is merely a cog in a scripted sequence of words. To me it's like volunteering to participate in a magician's show where you know ahead of time that it's all a trick, but when the rabbit comes out of the hat you're STILL flabbergasted.

Obviously I don't feel nothing when I read Berserk, otherwise why would I still be here? But what I do feel is behind a veil from anything I would attribute "hate” in real life (which as it happens, isn’t something I often feel anyway). Part of that is because I think I experience stories through analysis, not by being an integrated component of the story. I'll admire the craft of something before being stung by the pains of it. If something fucked up happens--a left turn, a betrayal--my first thoughts are usually more along the lines of, "Oh wow, that was really well executed, I wonder what'll happen next" than "FUCK THAT MEAN GUY FOR WHAT HE DID!" When Baron Harkonnen is on the page scheming his diabolical "plots within plots within plots," I'm not gritting my teeth, I'm genuinely excited to see how he pulls it off.

But the effect is accentuated in a series like Berserk, where the author has undertaken great pains to round out their characters, outfitting them with the humanlike quality of being assembled from many parts and experiences, rather than Frankensteined together by showing the reader only bad things. Gambino and Carcus are great examples. I've written a whole thread about "Understanding Gambino" if you're curious (even Matahachi from Vagabond got this treatment from me). If "hate" were the sum of all I felt toward them, I feel like that would be a failure in reading comprehension in not seeing the breadcrumb trail left by Miura.
 
A reply to a reply 7 years in the making! :ganishka: It's true that I have a hard time understanding it, but Berserk isn't special in that regard. I think it's a strange phenomenon for people in general to experience deep negative emotions toward a clearly unreal character who is merely a cog in a scripted sequence of words. To me it's like volunteering to participate in a magician's show where you know ahead of time that it's all a trick, but when the rabbit comes out of the hat you're STILL flabbergasted.

Obviously I don't feel nothing when I read Berserk, otherwise why would I still be here? But what I do feel is behind a veil from anything I would attribute "hate” in real life (which as it happens, isn’t something I often feel anyway). Part of that is because I think I experience stories through analysis, not by being an integrated component of the story. I'll admire the craft of something before being stung by the pains of it. If something fucked up happens--a left turn, a betrayal--my first thoughts are usually more along the lines of, "Oh wow, that was really well executed, I wonder what'll happen next" than "FUCK THAT MEAN GUY FOR WHAT HE DID!" When Baron Harkonnen is on the page scheming his diabolical "plots within plots within plots," I'm not gritting my teeth, I'm genuinely excited to see how he pulls it off.

But the effect is accentuated in a series like Berserk, where the author has undertaken great pains to round out their characters, outfitting them with the humanlike quality of being assembled from many parts and experiences, rather than Frankensteined together by showing the reader only bad things. Gambino and Carcus are great examples. I've written a whole thread about "Understanding Gambino" if you're curious (even Matahachi from Vagabond got this treatment from me). If "hate" were the sum of all I felt toward them, I feel like that would be a failure in reading comprehension in not seeing the breadcrumb trail left by Miura.
That's why I state that I feel like Griffith is a well written character. I dont hate him he's fictitious. Though I can see how others do, I guess. Like wanting the protagonist to succeed and the antagonists to fail isnt always silly, melodramatic, taking things to seriously that is just how some people immerse themselves in the story.
 
Top Bottom