Is Griffith Evil?

[Uriel]

Look, I am not going to read half the stuff here because it's pointless bickery. Griffith was not evil. He achieved his dream through War, where casualties were a certainty.

As for the Eclipse, it was his destiny. No other way of going about it. As for Griffith reborn, he lacks some of the emotions he had before the Eclipse, but his objective is still the same.

 

[BlackSwordsman]

Somebody said something about Griffith justifying his actions by saying that he sacrificed the hawks because they would have died in battle for him. And I agree with who wrote that. I mean it all made sense to Griffith when he did it. At first he seemed confused and it must of just all came together. He was probably thinking, "Hey, they quite possibly could've and would've died in battle for me." and the only reason his fights is to achieve his dreams which killed many hawks and would've caused many more to die. He probably thought the only difference is they're still dyng for my dream except it's by my own hands and not an enemies (an enemy could kill a hawk and it would be alright for the hawk because, he died fighting for Griffith's dream in a battle but if Griffith killed him it's bad in the hawks mind even though both deaths are for the same purpose.) But either way Griffith's sacrifice of the hawks was treason. He killed the men who admired him. I don't think he's evil just a traitor.

 

[Genn21]

, The hawks were just another stepping stone for his path to rightiousness in his own eyes... A means to his ends if i will , to better the world , and make a more powerful footing to create his lifegoal a new empire

 

[Amadeus]

Archanah, Actually I kinda agree with most of what you said. I believe that yes, there ARE two balancing forces that are neither good nor evil. But I don't belive that they're 'Chaotic' and 'Creative' as you put it. As you said yourself, define 'Chaotic' and 'Creative'. There IS no PURE chaotic or PURE order. All people are, are one big jumble of it. Therefore there really isn't 'chaos' or order.

Other than that, you have an interesting (Albiet overused) theory.

*Archaneah then proceeds to wander in a daze at her inability to draw a final conclusion*


I have also suceeded in thouroghly confusing myself. (BLEH)

-----Arch

You see, this is why Rugrats shouldn't writ about good and evil.. NOR should they watch Berserk, They'll just corrupt and confuse themselves.

~*Amadeus*~

 

[SexyCharlotte]

Archanah, Actually I kinda agree with most of what you said. I believe that yes, there ARE two balancing forces that are neither good nor evil. But I don't belive that they're 'Chaotic' and 'Creative' as you put it. As you said yourself, define 'Chaotic' and 'Creative'. There IS no PURE chaotic or PURE order. All people are, are one big jumble of it. Therefore there really isn't 'chaos' or order.

Other than that, you have an interesting (Albiet overused) theory.You see, this is why Rugrats shouldn't writ about good and evil.. NOR should they watch Berserk, They'll just corrupt and confuse themselves.

~*Amadeus*~

One of Godhand's main sayings is that ' Man has no control over his own destiny." Meaning that everything is predestined and has order to it. Griffith's 'fate' to become a God Hand then can be argued that he was simply fulfilling his role to become Femto, because as a man, he had 'no control'over it. Guts is the one who defies his destiny...he defies death all the time, proving that he's fighting on in the face of chaos. Though he seems to 'create' chaos LOL everytime he swings that sword and ugh...people things die in his path.

This argument of chaos, creativity, fate, destiny, are things ordered or is life random and meaningless...have been going on since the dawn of time. And so it will continues in a story which has no beginning, will have no end.

LG

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

Ya know what? I think I'm gonna stop posting to this topic, since there doesn't seem to be anything to discuss, really.

I have learnt a few important things, though, that I believe will make my life a whole lot easier:
Mass murder will be forgiven if you

a) only kill people who trusts you with their life.

b) have been badly treated before (not neccesarily by those you're slaughtering).

c) can blame destiny.

and d) DON'T RAPE ANYBODY!!!!!!

Thanks for clearing me up, and... I must apologise for the excessive use of sarcasm in this post.

-Blue

 

[Genn21]

Ya know what? I think I'm gonna stop posting to this topic, since there doesn't seem to be anything to discuss, really.

I have learnt a few important things, though, that I believe will make my life a whole lot easier:
Mass murder will be forgiven if you

-Blue

You need to look beyond your feelings to refine who griffith truly is. Dont let humanity bungle a good decision. ( griffithsu never did ^^;;)

The sacrifice of the hawks and destiny are the same thing blue . Never the less , your letting the eyes of others ( moral, good feeling, happy monkeys,) determine his goodness value , and not whats shakin from griffithsus perspective.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

Oh yeaaahh... thanks, Genn, I almost forgot.

*clears throat*

e) as long as you can justify the killing to yourself, it's not a crime.

Easiest part, really! I mean, who *can't* justify their own actions?

 

[Genn21]

, See i could respond liar lair liar you still posted to this topic and the would be reasonably good in my eyes , but a load of horse ass in yours .. Your falling short of grace getting the point , that feelings becloud people on subjects like this.

Griff was a good guy and i know girls find it hard to accept that he uses rape and murder and other types of michevious things to acheive his ultimate goal in the name of good. You cant be stuck in the past with this subject and only give a historical perspective on whether he was good or bad. One MUST have to observe his ultimate goal to realise his full potential to either be a person with good intenshions or evil ones.

By the way gutts is also a good guy but i know many of you would use the same examples of griffith being bad to partition gutts as being a evil monster to.

( Oh wait gutts must be good , BECAUSE he fights the bad guy ha ha ha, lmfao, Lolz, golly gee that was simple ) ....coffee break

 

[Mizar]

If you did destroy the whole north american continent because it was the only way to prevent a deadly epidemic from spreading than no that would not make you "evil"! Murder is not evil!

No, that would not make you "evil", nor would it make you "evil" if you kill the same people just because you get such an amazing kick out of it.
But I'm not the one saying this or that is 'evil' here. I'm only saying that what Griffith did was horrible, just like what Hitler did. How some of you people are trying to justify Griffith's actions by saying that "well, his soldiers were already prepared to die for him anyway", or "it was all causality" is completely beyond me. You know, I have a great idea, let's kill our whole army, they are already prepared to die for their country anyway. We only need to perform some deadly experiments for our very important research on them. And let's also stop this whole silly thing called "law enforcement", everything is ruled by causality anyway. Don't hate your neighbor who killed your cat, love your rapist and just sit down and quietly watch the beautiful flow of causality run its course before you.

In my book there is no true "evil", only levels of insanity and perversion.

Why are you trying to lable things again? Levels of insanity and perversion are just as subjective as evilness is.

Hate is a level of insanity just like pleasure killing is a perversion, so If you did kill people because of hate it would be different than if you killed for a logical reason or as you said it to serve a "higher purpose".

Hate is a level of insanity? Pleasure in killing is a perversion? I don't know how you come up with such a classification system but my point earlier was that it doesn't really make a difference to me if someone kills simply out of pleasure or to serve some "higher purpose". There is a difference of course, but not from a moralistic perspective. Or do you believe that if you kill to serve some "higher purpose" is somehow more morally justified in your eyes than if you do it out of sheer pleasure? Hitler killed for a higher purpose too, you know.

Ok, Griffith is "evil" but he is also "good" and rationnal as much a everybody else. Its all part of us we just don't display it all, all the time.

What are you trying to say here? That Griffith is just human? Yeah, I know, so what!? Hitler is human, too. He did many good things as well, it's just that we have only seen and known him as a screaming bloodlusting maniac, but what we don't see is that he actually had a lot of good characteristics as well, he was also intelligent, had charisma and did many nice things for people as well.

 

[Genn21]

Evil is insanity ?... wtf happend to rational in this topic , thats apples and oranges damnit :) Man i wonder whats next. angst goth kids act insane because there really evil ? ( dude there evan scarier ,now that youve convinced me.) So what would that say? The more bad acts you commit the more insane you are! 5 year olds would shit that theory out and have there teacher put a F on the bag they droped it in. This is not aristotle quality thinking, supergutts sheds a tear

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

, See i could respond liar lair liar you still posted to this topic and the would be reasonably good in my eyes , but a load of horse ass in yours .. Your falling short of grace getting the point , that feelings becloud people on subjects like this.

Sarcasm, Genn... loads of sarcasm in that post. I still think there are things to discuss, hence I shall keep posting.

Griff was a good guy and i know girls find it hard to accept that he uses rape and murder and other types of michevious things to acheive his ultimate goal in the name of good. You cant be stuck in the past with this subject and only give a historical perspective on whether he was good or bad. One MUST have to observe his ultimate goal to realise his full potential to either be a person with good intenshions or evil ones.

Girls? So you're saying men fully understand and appreciate the use of rape and murder to get what they want?
Allow me to doubt that.

And your past is an integral part of your present and future. It's a part of who you are, there's no escaping that.
Largely, Genn, I think you're "speaking in your night cap". A lot of what you're saying makes little or no sense at all, and I am having a lot of trouble decyphering your posts, so if I've got you wrong on some point I'm sorry.... but the way I'm reading you right now, it almost seems like you're disagreeing with me just to get a reaction out of me. Are you?
In that case I'm going to have to disappoint you. I plan on trying to be reasonable.

( Oh wait gutts must be good , BECAUSE he fights the bad guy ha ha ha, lmfao, Lolz, golly gee that was simple ) ....coffee break

Riiight.... If that was directed at me, please go find the post where I ever said Gatts was a good guy.
He's not a monster, I'm not saying that - he's human, just like Griffith - but neither is he a good guy.
He's both, that's what being human is all about... only, we have to try to be as un-monster-y as possible in order to coexist with other humans.

*sigh* at least you know what I'm trying to say, Mizar. 'Cause you said it:

How some of you people are trying to justify Griffith's actions by saying that "well, his soldiers were already prepared to die for him anyway", or "it was all causality" is completely beyond me.

Me too.

 

[typhonblue]

I invoke Godwin's law on this topic.

 

[Genn21]

He's both, that's what being human is all about... only, we have to try to be as un-monster-y as possible in order to coexist with other humans.

*sigh* at least you know what I'm trying to say, Mizar. 'Cause you said it:Me too.

Oh gutts is both huh good and bad thats a new one and hes just human. so that would mean humans have the ability to be both good and bad ( we all know this ) but what are his final intentions to judge him in this story portray him as a good man. sure his past may be wicked as he may kill "goodguys" daily but does that make him evil no. what makes gutts good is we all see him for revenge against a man who has wronged him. a man miurra portrays as a evil rapeist / murderer ( to make the fans think its a evil monkey of a griffithsu ). griff has bigger and higher intentions in the end than gutts and he intends to help everybody with it not just casca and all the people hes stepped on that gutts had to go through.

Dont let your emotions get in your way on this topic. to judge griffith is to see he still strives for his goal and takes everyone into acc with it. He knows life will have problems the man solves them in his own way. Dont call him a "monsterous wicked baddy" just for him being a good person in a different way. the man utilizes different methods to achieve his dream from what normal hero's do.

And no blue dont blow things out of proportion. im not saying men use rape and murder to get through life daily. Im saying you have to be more than a man or a woman in this topic more like a neutral sence and cast a zeroed opinion , like it didnt matter what his actions did to people andhow "they" felt its how griffith wants them to feel after he achives his goal.

 

[SomeKindOfBlue]

(Phuh, why am I still trying?)

Ok, Genn. Emotions out the window, I look at the hard facts.
Fact: Griffith betrayed and killed hundreds of people who trusted him with their life. This I concieve of as a bad thing.

Fact: He was angsty, broken, frightened and manipulated when it happened. This makes me understand how he could do it at all, but it doesn't - in my opinion - justify anything. People are still dead.

Maybe my morals are just too high for this wretched world and I am just an idealistic moron with no real attachment to reality, but I just can not find any reason - emotional or rational - that can justify murder. (Except self-defense in the "It's him or me" sense. I'm not counting "I can't live without my dream! It's them or it!" 'cause as a human, you can. It's not the ideal existance, but like Judeau said "Not everyone can get what they dream". Most normal people never do.)

And Genn, do you think that Griffith is trying to bring about a new, better and brighter way of life for all?
That's funny, I thought he only "Wanted his own country". He's never said that he wants to liberate the people of Midland or any such thing - the only thing he's really said was that he wants to rule. He wants to be more than he was born to be.
That doesn't automatically mean that he wants everyone else to be happy, too, does it?

Anyway, back to Griffith and his reasons for doing the things he did.

THE SACRIFICE OF THE HAWKS WAS NOT "DESTINY"!
Griffith is not some poor, helpless tool in the hand of Idea. If the events at the eclipse had really been "Fate" or "Destiny", God Hand would have shown up, branded and slain the Hawks without bothering with any of the lengthy, angsty talking or manipulating of Griffith, because there would have been no other way.
I thought that the very fact that the God Hand did the whole 'vision of the castle and the mountain of bodies' thing was because at the end of ends Griffith would have to make the choice, himself.

Which means that he COULD have chosen not to.

Which means that he is responsible for what he chose.

Otherwise the whole vision and the God Hands talking to Griff was just a tremendous waste of time and an uncharacteristically cheap grab at gratifying angst by Miura, and I respect the man too much to believe that.

I thought Causality was quite a diffrerent thing from Destiny. I've been viewing Griffith not as a tool of Idea's, but more as a pure-breed... bred for ruling like a greyhound is bred for running - but if so, he's a greyhound without a leash, free to decide when, where or even if he wants to run.

"Be as you will"/"Do as you want"

 

[Mizar]

I invoke Godwin's law on this topic.

Aw, come on, that's too easy, you can substitute Hitler for any kind of (serial) killer/rapist if you like. I didn't even use him to insult someone.

 

[SexyCharlotte]

You all realize, of course, this topic of is Griffith evil or not...is an argument that will never end ;).

Mizar, I got my silver metal behelit necklace. Do you think I'd be considered evil if I sacrifice my boring neighbors to become an apostle, because these neighbors drive me crazy with their Pentecostal born-again TV gospel shows constantly??

And the sacrifice would be for a higher purpose...but you already know that

LG

 

[Mizar]

Mizar, I got my silver metal behelit necklace. Do you think I'd be considered evil if I sacrifice my boring neighbors to become an apostle, because these neighbors drive me crazy with their Pentecostal born-again TV gospel shows constantly??

Well, from my point of view and with the added knowledge of your "higher purpose", I really can't see anything wrong with it, so please don't let me stop you. ;)

I'm already looking forward to seeing Midland's gangbang apostle in action. 8)

 

[Genn21]

, Well blue sure killing a couple hundred people is a wrong thing. Griff had to do what he had to do (putting casuality aside ) these were the prequesites for his goal and he knew the path would not be easy. Griff did his role perfectly. He did all he could do as a person to achieve his goal of greater good as a person and when he failed he knew there must be some way to go beyond that. the man would never give up, like he strived for his dream endlessly and he knew no one would realise his dream ( beside gutsu ) untill he finally achieved it for midland. it helps to think here he didnt just go out and slaughter people for fun , blue he had prime targets or stones for his road i may say, that he needed to lay down.

godawins theory blows theres greater levels of evil out there i wanna punch that geek in the jaw

 

[typhonblue]

You all realize, of course, this topic of is Griffith evil or not...is an argument that will never end ;).

Mizar, I got my silver metal behelit necklace. Do you think I'd be considered evil if I sacrifice my boring neighbors to become an apostle, because these neighbors drive me crazy with their Pentecostal born-again TV gospel shows constantly??

I think you'd be considered a God(ess).

And Glen21, if there are greater levels of evil, why doesn't anyone use those examples to make a point? At least it'd be more interesting than, "Well Hitler blah blah blah, therefore I'm right!"

 

[Mizar]

At least it'd be more interesting than, "Well Hitler blah blah blah, therefore I'm right!"

Actually, what I really meant was, "Well Hitler blah blah blah, don't you agree?" ;)

 

[Genn21]

Actually, what I really meant was, "Well Hitler blah blah blah, don't you agree?" ;)

Well i dont think hitler was really evil just misdirected. Greater level's of evil would count from wrong deeds including bad intentions on a scale. like little johnny going to the store and stealing candie because hes hungry. Or griffith killing a hundred people and raping casca because he needs a kingdom. If you dont get emotional about it ,the thoery of his goodness in part of works pretty well. heres a level of evil example tho. Little johnny going to the store to steal candy just to deprive someone else form getting it =s BAD, Griffith killing hundreds of people and rapeing casca because he thought it was a fun time and wanted to laugh at there familys =s worse.

Cleary mizar , blue , i thought you would have understood this.

Many people call Heimlich Heimler evil because he was "following orders" but he was just a pawn. I think the nazi scientists who volenteered to work on the live/dead jewish bodies to improve chemical agents would be a prime example of a wrong act or evil as one may call it.

Im gonna stop beating the dead horse after this, I think most people know that griffs is concepted good

 

[Mizar]

Cleary mizar , blue , i thought you would have understood this.

Are you serious!? Cause if you are that would be really sad. If you say there's nothing wrong with killing a few hundred people and raping Caska for a kingdom then by the same logic it also wouldn't be a problem if I killed everyone because I want to have this world for me alone, right? As long as I create some purpose or goal in my mind, it's all fine with you, I can do whatever I want. I can even kill or torture you, but only after you confirm that I have some goal in mind. But if I kill only to have a good time without further purpose, it's suddenly a very BAD thing to you. Yeah, I see your logic now. ::)

And just one more thing. You know that if we would be able to do (dangerous) experiments on living humans for our medical research, thousands of people and more could be saved in the future. You think the ends justify the means here? The concept is good, right? (to save more people in the end)

 

[Genn21]

To Have purpose is a point to a sentiant life mizar.

And just one more thing. You know that if we would be able to do (dangerous) experiments on living humans for our medical research, thousands of people and more could be saved in the future. You think the ends justify the means here? The concept is good, right? (to save more people in the end)

No mizar ... they still enjoy hurting people after the fact, why didnt you include the fact that i said volunteered

Im not beating this dead horse no more no more im not beating this dead horse... que Mizar damnit

 

[Mizar]

To Have purpose is a point to a sentiant life mizar.

And what does this have to do with levels of evilness? No, what does this have to do with anything at all?

And what if one's purpose is having fun? And killing people happens to provide you that fun? Isn't that the greatest way to live a sentient life Genn?

No mizar ... they still enjoy hurting people after the fact, why didnt you include the fact that i said volunteered

I was actually talking about general medical research nowadays. They often use living and dead animals for them. If they could use living humans instead of animals their research would become much more effective. And the general idea seems still good, to sacrifice some people to save more later. And that's also what you think Griffith is doing, right? Sacrificing his people and raping Caska, all to be able to become King and better the world and safe more people in the end.
If this is true (which I doubt), it's basically the same thing as my medical research example above shows. Which is flawed in the sense that the end doesn't justify the means here. Also, the end is completely uncertain in Griffith's case. Schierke said that he will be the one who will bring true darkness to the world. Doesn't seem very 'good' to me, really.
And in the case of Griffith I could also use your own "volunteer" argument against you; the demons at the eclipse (volunteers) really enjoyed killing the Hawks too. That should be enough to make it "evil" to you, no?

And I'll continue beating this dead horse untill it reincarnates and then I'm gonna beat it some more.