Is Griffith Evil?
- Thread starter typhonblue
- Start date
Hitler had an underlying purpose for what he did but I still think he was evil. An act does not need to be senseless to be wrong.
This part seems to be very similar to the views of Machiavelli (wrote The Prince)to me. I do not think that the end always justify the means, especially such a selfish dream as Griffith's.
I don't think the stacking of bodies meant he would die if he declined either. It had to do with the idea that if he did not kill his rivals to climb higher then they would kill him so they could reach their goal. If he did not add their bodies to the pile then they would add his so they could get higher.
This part seems to be very similar to the views of Machiavelli (wrote The Prince)to me. I do not think that the end always justify the means, especially such a selfish dream as Griffith's.
I don't think the stacking of bodies meant he would die if he declined either. It had to do with the idea that if he did not kill his rivals to climb higher then they would kill him so they could reach their goal. If he did not add their bodies to the pile then they would add his so they could get higher.
SexyCharlotte
All those who wander are not always lost
Darok [Teddybear Supreme] said:
So because I don't want children, and people accuse me of being selfish, that makes me evil?? Please.
LG
SexyCharlotte
All those who wander are not always lost
Darok [Teddybear Supreme] said:
People who do selfish things does not make then evil. Just because someone thinks only of himself, for example, what person has NOT done some selfish acts? A selfish act within itself does not make the person evil. If that was the case everyone has been evil. People here like to use Hitler as an example but that really doesn't count because this is anime and a whole different set of circumstances.
I'm sick of listening to people who sit here and say something without bothering to even think about what Griffith went through and how his destiny was fulfilled by choosing to do what he did. Sure, I hate what he did too, but I don't necessary hate HIM as an individual.
LG
LG
6th Angel said:
Hitler wasn't evil. Don't get me wrong, if there was another Hitler, (or for that matter a Griffith) I'd be first in line to help rid the world of him. But saying he did what he did because he was evil is making it too easy on yourself. It absolves humanity of the responsibility of letting him climb to power, and it releases you from your duty to make sure it never happens again.
WW2 happend for reasons far more complex that Hitlers deranged mind. Far too complex to delve deeply into right now. Anyway, Hitler probably thought he was right. He probably thought Jews and socialists were the source of all "evil" in the world, and he probably thought Germany had the right to rule the world. Hitler was crazy, but he wasn't evil. Griffith is ruthless, but he's not evil.
Agent Smith said:
I think Makkuro's point was that the mass executions of the Jews was probably justified in Hitler's mind no matter how despicable the act was to us. It was probably the same way with Griffith and how he believed the Hawks' sacrifice was justified in order for him to achieve his dream and be reborn as Femto.
Each side of a conflict believes that his/her actions to be justified and characterizes the opposing side as "evil"... it is a very polarizing term that can be used to rally people around your position.
Agent Smith said:
Please Agent Smith, try to read his post more carefully. He only says that characterizing Hitler (or anyone else) as evil is just too simplistic, and can't fully describe a person within its context. Don't just pick one sentence and try to beat him to death with it, but try to look at the whole instead.
ps: I still agree with SomeKindOfBlue, she's not naive, she just judges Griffith according to her own personal morals. And everyone here has their own set of morals, if you want it or not.
Lady Griffith said:
what evil that human beings commit is NOT a derivation of selfishness? (here I am defining selfishness as placing ones own needs/desires above another's, when the sum benefit would be greatest were their desires to come first). The selfish ACT is evil. Having occasional or semi-occasional selfish impulses does not make one evil. Griffith's identity WAS that selfish desire, that selfish act. That is how I see him as Evil.
Yes, he went through a lot of pain, a lot of problems. But any and every person, when faced with said problems, can always choose between the (more) right path and the (more) wrong path. Griffith COULD have gone on as a cripple, and he saw what the results would have been. He chose to sacrifice instead, gaining a modicum of happiness for him, but great pain for the Hawks. The sum benefit there is lowered, and weighed much more heavily toward Griffith.
Look at it this way.
Griffith justified the sacrifice of the hawks by saying they knew what they were in for. They served him to the best of their abilities. They served him on BATTLEFIELDS. Every time they went into a battle they were risking their lives, they all knew they could die there, sometimes they even expected to die. They were willing to give their lives for him anywhere, why not at the eclipse?
Griffith didn't betray anybody, one could argue that he finally gave the hawks a chance to serve their true purpose, to elevate him. He's certainly a bastard for raping Caska and maiming Gatts however.
Griffith justified the sacrifice of the hawks by saying they knew what they were in for. They served him to the best of their abilities. They served him on BATTLEFIELDS. Every time they went into a battle they were risking their lives, they all knew they could die there, sometimes they even expected to die. They were willing to give their lives for him anywhere, why not at the eclipse?
Griffith didn't betray anybody, one could argue that he finally gave the hawks a chance to serve their true purpose, to elevate him. He's certainly a bastard for raping Caska and maiming Gatts however.
BlackSwordsman
I MUST BREAK YOU!
After reading all these posts and stuff and reading the eclipse again AND watching the anime. I pity Griffith and it seems like he isn't evil he's just shattered and when he and Guts fall and he grabs Guts so he don't fall to the bottom just made me notice that he kind of cares for him still. My new opinion is that no he's not evil. There's just to much to the subject. It depends on whose point of view your looking at for Griffith it was fine and it had to be done to get his life back! And for Guts it was evil because he was responsible for the deaths of men who admired him and risked their lives to save him. I thought he was kind of tempted by the God Hand which helped him justify the act of slaying the Hawks. But the God Hand didn't convince him to sacrifice them because didn't Ubik say his visions were a reflection of his own consciousness or something like that. Another thing I noticed is in the manga when Griffith is "sinking" before he becomes Femto he says something to the effect of, "While I tried to avoid confronting my pain I became Cold Hearted." or something like that. I think he was just confused and it was like some spur of the moment thing in a sense but basically like many people have stated before, it's to hard to define good and evil, Everyone pretty much thinks they're good. Just like I read that like 85% of people (OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT) believe in hell but only like 1% think they are going there. It's like that old saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" (I think that's it) except it's "Evil is in the eye of the beholder." There's no such thing as good or evil but there's such thing as beliefs.
typhonblue
Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Lady Griffith said:
You too? Doesn't it just burn you up how quickly Caska got preggers? I mean, damn! One shot and she's down for the count.
Couldn't she have had at least a few *months* worth of fun with Guts before she had to become Cassie-Q, homemaker?
ARGH!
Anyway... As I've said many times before I believe *everyone* is selfish. The only difference is how people aproach their selfishness. I mean, how can you do selfish right when you have no understanding of your *self*?
Thats Guts and Griffith's whole problem right there. They're both flailing about trying to be properly selfish with no idea how to go about it because they have no idea who they really are.
SexyCharlotte
All those who wander are not always lost
Interesting point about Griffith AND Guts being selfish, for Guts thought only of avenging/revenge...remember there's the scene in the manga ( which drew out the characters' range and personality more because of its depth and length) where Godo chastizes Guts when Caska wanders off. Guts got all mad at Rickert and Godo's daughter..."HOW COULD YOU LEAVE HER ALONE??"
And then Godo says, " Who are you to blame Rickert when you left her for two years to go fight your own battles..." and he admonishes Guts, " You let the fire of hatred burn you up inside..."
He said things that made Guts THINK. And then Caska became a burden too to Guts later on. Her helplessness was his weight to bear.
Put to an extreme, the idea of selfish/evil is an argument that could go on forever, because while some people believe, for example, that abortion should be legal, others really consider it murder and therefore an act of evil.
When we talk about the Holocaust and Hitler, and how evil he was with 6 million or more Jews and other people he considered inferior to be killed in the camps, then we can also say the Catholic Church was evil because they went and conquered others with a 'convert or die' mentality...and 22 million Indians lost their lives in the Americas because of their 'invasion' of religion. Yet the Church will never admit that evil genocide it committed.
So with Griffith, he'll never see what he did as evil, just a means to an end to getting what he wanted...use and dispose people so easily like discarded tissue.
LG
And then Godo says, " Who are you to blame Rickert when you left her for two years to go fight your own battles..." and he admonishes Guts, " You let the fire of hatred burn you up inside..."
He said things that made Guts THINK. And then Caska became a burden too to Guts later on. Her helplessness was his weight to bear.
Put to an extreme, the idea of selfish/evil is an argument that could go on forever, because while some people believe, for example, that abortion should be legal, others really consider it murder and therefore an act of evil.
When we talk about the Holocaust and Hitler, and how evil he was with 6 million or more Jews and other people he considered inferior to be killed in the camps, then we can also say the Catholic Church was evil because they went and conquered others with a 'convert or die' mentality...and 22 million Indians lost their lives in the Americas because of their 'invasion' of religion. Yet the Church will never admit that evil genocide it committed.
So with Griffith, he'll never see what he did as evil, just a means to an end to getting what he wanted...use and dispose people so easily like discarded tissue.
LG
SomeKindOfBlue
How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
Er.... Of COURSE the slaying of the Hawks was justified from Griffith's point of view. Why WOULDN'T it be?
But look at it from YOUR OWN point of view: as an outside observer. Forget story continuity, forget causality, and look at the facts and the result, as if these were real people in a real event - like something you'd seen on the news or something.
(Requires a little stretch of imagination, but not too much, I believe.)
And I'm not saying that everybody should hate Griffith, I'm just trying to understand why so many are trying to justify what he did.
He's a totally cool, interesting and dynamic character, but he commited a despicable act!
Everybody does bad things - I have quite a temper if I feel I'm being ridiculed (Heh... se above) - and there are plenty of people who think less of me because of it. I think there might even be those who hate me... and EVEN MY FRIENDS don't like that part of me - they just choose to like some different part instead.
And I must say I prefer those of them who are honest and say "Yeah, that was stupid and uneccesary of you, I really wish you could stop and think before you lash out like that." before those who just smile nervously and say something like: "Oh, no... I understand you... you had your REASONS," just because they feel like they have to take my side, or because they're afraid I'll lash out at them next...
:)
....
...
Am I making sense, or am I just babbling?
:-[
But look at it from YOUR OWN point of view: as an outside observer. Forget story continuity, forget causality, and look at the facts and the result, as if these were real people in a real event - like something you'd seen on the news or something.
(Requires a little stretch of imagination, but not too much, I believe.)
And I'm not saying that everybody should hate Griffith, I'm just trying to understand why so many are trying to justify what he did.
He's a totally cool, interesting and dynamic character, but he commited a despicable act!
Everybody does bad things - I have quite a temper if I feel I'm being ridiculed (Heh... se above) - and there are plenty of people who think less of me because of it. I think there might even be those who hate me... and EVEN MY FRIENDS don't like that part of me - they just choose to like some different part instead.
And I must say I prefer those of them who are honest and say "Yeah, that was stupid and uneccesary of you, I really wish you could stop and think before you lash out like that." before those who just smile nervously and say something like: "Oh, no... I understand you... you had your REASONS," just because they feel like they have to take my side, or because they're afraid I'll lash out at them next...
:)....
...
Am I making sense, or am I just babbling?
:-[
So instead of being subjective, we should instead be subjective. Ideally, you should look at this subject completely logically, not even taking into account your initial emotions.SomeKindOfBlue said:
You don't need to cover your ass here. We're all friends... sort of.
G
Genn21
Guest
Well typhon as for selfish thats obvious , but your only talking about the human race that dominates the entire planet with there use of reason . we are driven to do selfish acts by our socio emotional drive and when they ( acts) seem reasonable enough without enough consequence evan the most mild mannerd will perform these tasks that seem grotesque and obscure to the normal man ( one in homeostasis).. but yet that is fate ( and its a learning experiance to ^^ ) as for blue... er somekindof , damn you woman stop using blue in your names !!!, were your friends through the thick and thin when we get to know you thats the side we deal with , those other emotions anger rage love hate well cast off as side effects of a good user, i for one can live with that , unless theres some other secrets but thats best left for berserk bbs. ep 2 reply to genns post
As an outside observer, I was (and still am) very appalled when I saw how Griffith coldly sacrificed the Hawks for his own selfish reason.
But you have to consider justification as a factor here. Yes, he committed a despicable act... no one questions that. However, to characterize that action as simply "evil" or "bad" is simplifying the situation too much and absolving ourselves from asking the hard questions. The killing of innocent civilians during war-time is also despicable or "evil" yet many countries justify the killings as unfortunate by-products of "liberating the people" (you know the country...). Madeline Albright once said that the starvation of Iraqi children was "worth it" in order to keep Saddam Hussein in check. Whether it is justified or not from our POV is irrelevent; if the offending party believes the actions to be justified, it is justified. Same thing with Griffith. Perhaps he believed his dream was more precious than the lives of the Hawks. Perhaps he believed that the Hawks' loyalty for him and his dream was justification enough to sacrifice them. Life isn't always black and white... sometimes, you have to pick the lesser of two evils.
Who determines what is right and wrong? Society? Government? Collective will is a dangerous notion... communist, fascist, and theocratic societies often invoke the "for the good of the whole" or "God will smite you!" reasoning to coerce people to comply with them. Different societies have different set of morals and values and they change throughout time. Rape was generally viewed as an acceptable practice in some societies in the Middle Ages. We are utilizing a Judeo-Christian morality code to judge Griffith whereas he may not be judged the same way using a different set of ethics.
But you have to consider justification as a factor here. Yes, he committed a despicable act... no one questions that. However, to characterize that action as simply "evil" or "bad" is simplifying the situation too much and absolving ourselves from asking the hard questions. The killing of innocent civilians during war-time is also despicable or "evil" yet many countries justify the killings as unfortunate by-products of "liberating the people" (you know the country...). Madeline Albright once said that the starvation of Iraqi children was "worth it" in order to keep Saddam Hussein in check. Whether it is justified or not from our POV is irrelevent; if the offending party believes the actions to be justified, it is justified. Same thing with Griffith. Perhaps he believed his dream was more precious than the lives of the Hawks. Perhaps he believed that the Hawks' loyalty for him and his dream was justification enough to sacrifice them. Life isn't always black and white... sometimes, you have to pick the lesser of two evils.
Who determines what is right and wrong? Society? Government? Collective will is a dangerous notion... communist, fascist, and theocratic societies often invoke the "for the good of the whole" or "God will smite you!" reasoning to coerce people to comply with them. Different societies have different set of morals and values and they change throughout time. Rape was generally viewed as an acceptable practice in some societies in the Middle Ages. We are utilizing a Judeo-Christian morality code to judge Griffith whereas he may not be judged the same way using a different set of ethics.
SomeKindOfBlue
How, Caska? How could you not pounce this man?
No, Bok Choy, I'm not using some Judeo-christian whatchamacallit... I'm trying to use common sense based off of what I know, feel and think.
Walter... again, I'm not sure I understand you. I AM being objective.
Yes, I hated it when Judeau died - hated; past tense - I'm over it. As a matter of fact, I could argue the point that Griffith did a good thing in killing the Hawks and Judeau in particular, because that gave me inspiration to embark on my greatest writing project ever - and it was such a dramatic and romantic scene... the kind I just LIVE for. :)
..And to take it one step further: Judeau isn't really dead. His existance isn't linear; he's a fictional character, and as long as one can re-read the manga or re-watch (is that a word?) the anime, he won't be dead. None of the Hawks will, 'cause you flip the page/press the play button, and they're right there, alive and kicking. (If the term alive can be used on fictional characters at all.)
And, of course, that point can be made about Griffith too - He's just a fictional character who's killed some fictional characters, but he's not really killed them since they (and he) were never really alive to begin with and all that blah...
But then, what would be the point of this entire bbs section? there'd be nothing to dicuss.
And I don't use that way of thinking (non-linear existence, fictional character...) when I judge the characters in a story I'm enjoying - then I try to think of them as real people whom I might have met, shaken hands and perhaps exchanged a few words with... and I judge them as such. (I think we all do.)
So to anyone who thinks my main gripe about Griffith is because JODO DIED BOO HOO, I just want to say
Nope.
I dislike Griffith because he, as a person I'd meet on the street/at a party or whatever, would utterly creep me out. And if I got to know him better, I think I might hate him.
Because, to me, He is scared. Like Corkus said: "A dream is a crutch for the weak to stave off the truth" (something like that...) And I see Griffith as being scared of reality. He uses his dream as a shield against the world and himself, so he won't have to see his own weaknesses and fear.
Everyone is afraid at some point, but if you manage to face your fear, you grow. It is very hard, but THAT is what will earn you my respect, running and hiding from fear and pain is The Easy Way Out.
It is also a very human thing to do. Taking The Easy Way Out every now and then in your personal life, allowing yourself some space to escape fear - at least for a while - is nothing to be ashamed of or even think twice about - BUT...
...when your inability to deal with fear costs someone's life, nevermind hundreds of lives, it has gone way, way too far.
Even if that life should be your own. Suicide is also The Easy Way Out.
I understand why Griffith did as he did, but I am angry at him for being so weak - and like Typhonblue mentioned, it is beacuse it reflects upon a part of me that I really don't like.
One can learn to live with disabilities - world champion runners can get into a car accident and get paralysed for life, but their life isn't over because of that. They can learn to live again and find something else to burn for. It will be tough as hell, but it IS possible.
Caving in is so very, very easy. So is dying, so is giving up, but just because it's easy doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Is Griffith evil? No. Human? Yes. But that's not an excuse.
Walter... again, I'm not sure I understand you. I AM being objective.
Yes, I hated it when Judeau died - hated; past tense - I'm over it. As a matter of fact, I could argue the point that Griffith did a good thing in killing the Hawks and Judeau in particular, because that gave me inspiration to embark on my greatest writing project ever - and it was such a dramatic and romantic scene... the kind I just LIVE for. :)
..And to take it one step further: Judeau isn't really dead. His existance isn't linear; he's a fictional character, and as long as one can re-read the manga or re-watch (is that a word?) the anime, he won't be dead. None of the Hawks will, 'cause you flip the page/press the play button, and they're right there, alive and kicking. (If the term alive can be used on fictional characters at all.)
And, of course, that point can be made about Griffith too - He's just a fictional character who's killed some fictional characters, but he's not really killed them since they (and he) were never really alive to begin with and all that blah...
But then, what would be the point of this entire bbs section? there'd be nothing to dicuss.
And I don't use that way of thinking (non-linear existence, fictional character...) when I judge the characters in a story I'm enjoying - then I try to think of them as real people whom I might have met, shaken hands and perhaps exchanged a few words with... and I judge them as such. (I think we all do.)
So to anyone who thinks my main gripe about Griffith is because JODO DIED BOO HOO, I just want to say
Nope.
I dislike Griffith because he, as a person I'd meet on the street/at a party or whatever, would utterly creep me out. And if I got to know him better, I think I might hate him.
Because, to me, He is scared. Like Corkus said: "A dream is a crutch for the weak to stave off the truth" (something like that...) And I see Griffith as being scared of reality. He uses his dream as a shield against the world and himself, so he won't have to see his own weaknesses and fear.
Everyone is afraid at some point, but if you manage to face your fear, you grow. It is very hard, but THAT is what will earn you my respect, running and hiding from fear and pain is The Easy Way Out.
It is also a very human thing to do. Taking The Easy Way Out every now and then in your personal life, allowing yourself some space to escape fear - at least for a while - is nothing to be ashamed of or even think twice about - BUT...
...when your inability to deal with fear costs someone's life, nevermind hundreds of lives, it has gone way, way too far.
Even if that life should be your own. Suicide is also The Easy Way Out.
I understand why Griffith did as he did, but I am angry at him for being so weak - and like Typhonblue mentioned, it is beacuse it reflects upon a part of me that I really don't like.
One can learn to live with disabilities - world champion runners can get into a car accident and get paralysed for life, but their life isn't over because of that. They can learn to live again and find something else to burn for. It will be tough as hell, but it IS possible.
Caving in is so very, very easy. So is dying, so is giving up, but just because it's easy doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Is Griffith evil? No. Human? Yes. But that's not an excuse.
In the whole series, the only moment Griffith commited an "evil" act, was the moment he raped Caska.
At that point I don't think he loved or even cared for Caska, he did it for the sole purpose of watching Guts suffer and THAT is "evil", the enjoyment of other people's suffering. Thats my definition anyway.
Griffith has always tried to be a emotionless person, and without emotions there can be no "good" or "evil". Everything else he did in the serie was cold and calculated without emotional involvement. Call it ruthless, determine, selffish or even murder but not "evil".
For the same reason, the act of murder (or sacrificing your friends) is not inherently "evil" except when it is enjoyed.
At that point I don't think he loved or even cared for Caska, he did it for the sole purpose of watching Guts suffer and THAT is "evil", the enjoyment of other people's suffering. Thats my definition anyway.
Griffith has always tried to be a emotionless person, and without emotions there can be no "good" or "evil". Everything else he did in the serie was cold and calculated without emotional involvement. Call it ruthless, determine, selffish or even murder but not "evil".
For the same reason, the act of murder (or sacrificing your friends) is not inherently "evil" except when it is enjoyed.
The Blackswordsman said:
So if I murder hundreds of people not because I enjoy it, but because I just hate the human race as a whole or because I think it serves some higher purpose I wouldn't be evil in your book? What difference does it make if I took pleasure in the killing or not? What makes that particular thing suddenly become "evil" to you?
To me there's really no fundamental difference between the way Griffith slaughtered his men and the way Hitler slaughtered the Jews (besides the numbers). Both were a product of one man's fierce ambition.
Mizar said:
Maybe that was Muira is trying to tell us, Griffin was like Hitler. Both of them came from a normal person background,both succeed in getting very high respected position, and most importantly, they are very ambitious.
Maybe that is what happening to Griffin in the end, like Hitler, knowing that he had failed eventually, commited sucide!
Just to let u know that this are just my speculation...
Mizar said:
There is a diffrence, is either rationnal or not!
If you did destroy the whole north american continent because it was the only way to prevent a deadly epidemic from spreading than no that would not make you "evil"! Murder is not evil!
In my book there is no true "evil", only levels of insanity and perversion.
Hate is a level of insanity just like pleasure killing is a perversion, so If you did kill people because of hate it would be different than if you killed for a logical reason or as you said it to serve a "higher purpose".
Ok, Griffith is "evil" but he is also "good" and rationnal as much a everybody else. Its all part of us we just don't display it all, all the time.
Okay, sorta playing off of what the blackswordsman said, I've always felt that Griffith was a mixture of 'Creative' and 'Chaotic' energy. Seriously, define 'good' and 'evil' anyway. There really isn't any, it's simply two opposing forces at opposite ends of the scale that form a universal balance... Or somthing. I mean, perhaps and extreme act of 'good' is veiwed as 'evil' on the chaotic end of the scale and vice versa (Obviously). Sooo... Herm... I'm getting way off subject here.
So... Was Griffith evil? I dunno, as I said, I'm not sure there IS an evil. Chaotic, yeah most definantly, but he had... Well... Lot's of order too. (Off-topic: I don't know why but My sister just told me to go to hell... Somthing about a piture? ::) I dunno..)
Evil... Hmmm..... *Ponders* Well, In the eyes of Gatsu it was most definantly evil. We don't know what Caska thought of the situation yet (We can safely assume she's not going to like it either correct?). I suppose they represent Miura's veiw on/ or the stories human aspects. They're kinda... Balanced in a way. While Griffith was..........
............Uh?
*Archaneah then proceeds to wander in a daze at her inability to draw a final conclusion*
Okay, Now while I SAY I don't believe there really is an evil, I think the closest it got was wehn he raped Caska (Someone already mentioned this I believe), THAT was inexcusable! So, unless we're going to count that as evil, then no, I don't think he was.
I have also suceeded in thouroghly confusing myself. (BLEH)
-----Arch
So... Was Griffith evil? I dunno, as I said, I'm not sure there IS an evil. Chaotic, yeah most definantly, but he had... Well... Lot's of order too. (Off-topic: I don't know why but My sister just told me to go to hell... Somthing about a piture? ::) I dunno..)
Evil... Hmmm..... *Ponders* Well, In the eyes of Gatsu it was most definantly evil. We don't know what Caska thought of the situation yet (We can safely assume she's not going to like it either correct?). I suppose they represent Miura's veiw on/ or the stories human aspects. They're kinda... Balanced in a way. While Griffith was..........
............Uh?
*Archaneah then proceeds to wander in a daze at her inability to draw a final conclusion*
Okay, Now while I SAY I don't believe there really is an evil, I think the closest it got was wehn he raped Caska (Someone already mentioned this I believe), THAT was inexcusable! So, unless we're going to count that as evil, then no, I don't think he was.
I have also suceeded in thouroghly confusing myself. (BLEH)
-----Arch